Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hangtime on February 16, 2000, 12:47:00 AM
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Dunno 'bout you folks.. but it seems to me the P51 is just too fragile. The tail comes off way too easy. The airframe seems to just collapse when hit.. wings fall off with a couple of pings; and the damn thing has poorer durabilty than a zeke.
I'm really gettin frustrated with it.. besides the guns lacking the punch to kill with a snapshot, the feeble overall airframe durabilty is gettin me down to the point of just giving up flying the AH Mustang.. Why bother taking it to a fight if it just falls apart on the first pings? Who in his right mind would take this airplane into combat TWICE in the real world? If it was really this weak; the pilots would have just run from the LW.
Hey AKwabbit.. can you send me a merlin soundfile that will work with the G10? I'd greatly apprectiate it.. This way I can fly around in a AH airplane that will fly and sound like a Mustang.
Hang
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If it's truly so weak, it would seem odd that a plane that was first used (with good results) for low-level armed recon(P-51) or dive bombing and ground attack(A-36A) would be especially vulnerable to gunfire.
Remember though, in AH most of the competition has 20mm cannon and lots of them. No tail is going to stand up to a half-dozen concentrated hits from HE shells I think.
Now about them .50's. If FIRE was modelled somehow, they could become alot more deadly since SAP/I rounds would probably start a fire if you got in a few decent fuel tank hits.
If you want to do some damage testing for comparison at any time, I'll be willing to fly a drone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I think the structure of the P-51 was pretty good. The weakness was the powerplant. A single bullet or fragment to the oil cooler or radiator (or the plumbing connecting them to the engine) was enough to down the plane.
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Hangtime sayeth:
If it was really this weak; the pilots would have just run from the LW.
Seems to be my AH Mustang experience so far. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seriously, I'm going to have to fly it a bit and see for myself. I can never get close enough to one to see what will happen.
By the way, the P51 was first used as a ground attack plane in order to keep the assembly lines open long enough to procure a fighter contract. There were those in power that knew it was a winner, but they had to "educate" their superiors. No less than Hap Arnold is reported to have commented later in his life what a "mistake it was not to have accepted it earlier". The Americans could have been flying this beauty in service in 1941 or 1942!
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 02-16-2000).]
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I think Funked has it right.
Pony should be pretty tough, but with a susceptibility to engine/coolant damage. Of course this applies to just about anything without a radial in it.
In the actual game it is hard to judge since like someone else mentioned, practically everything has at least 2 if not 4 20mm cannons. If you get hit, expect to die.
Of course thats probably why I fly the Pony in the first place, so I don't give them that opportunity to hit me (http://members.home.net/ironchefwilly/q3w/smileys/003.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Only planes I have seen losing parts more tougher than P-51, is N1K2 and F4u's.
Spits loses horizontal stab with one 20mm hit into either of horizontal stabs.
(talk about weak butt)
N1K2s takes alot punishment also, specially if its .50 caliber, never seen any fighter in AH take as much .50s as N1K2 does.
F4U's, I've been chopping them part by part couple of times :P
P-51, definetly tougher than 109 or spitfire, about equal with 190, though, 190 is smaller target and less visible than P-51 (maybe its just the colour of P-51, not that 190 is tougher? :P)
Lets also remember that you DO NOT hear exact number of hits.
This goes up to lag & code.
So its kind of crap to say "oh toejam, he got me with 2 pings!" (which can be like 15 hits)
If you wan't quick kills with poor gunnery, turn into cannon hog, it has ammo and guns.
I Have had no problems downing fighters with machineguns, not even with 7.92mm or 13mm guns, which both are weaker than brownings .50 cal.
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While their fixing the paper tail, they should fix that lazer for a gun it has, flew it lately and MAN! No wonder you boys like this plane! I was easily downing A/C anywhere from 500-900 yards out while barely compensating for bullet drop!
Nice A/C, but I prefer a challenge, FW190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have been flying them all recently, 205 is another sweety, and, of course, the Spit.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
"In training, upon being told it was time to
solo, the instructor said, “You tried to kill
me enough times, now try it with a check pilot.”"
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Please understand I'm not grousing about the legendary one ping powerplant.
I'm grousing about the tissue-paper tail and wings.. the airframe is absurdly weak in the AH Mustang.
As for the guns.. sure, leave the .50's on a reasonably stationary target for a couple of seconds and you get a kill. Try placing a stream of .50 cal fire in front of a target; let that target fly thu it, and it usually leaves undamaged. That's bogus. No snaphot. The six .50's were superb snapshot weapons.. Not here in AH tho.
Hang
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Taken from In The Cockpit, Flying the World's Great Aircraft
"The Mustang was such a clean design that it would quickly pick up speed in a dive and if you weren't careful you could get into compressibility. The airspeed indicator was red-lined at 500mph but, of course, at high altitude you could be hitting the 500 figure when the dial only showed 300mph. A lot of men got killed because they didn't compensate for altitude, got into a high speed dive at 30,000ft or more and suddenly found the aircraft in compressibility when the pointer was still way below the red line. The Mustang was tough, but if you got into an uncontrollable dive it only took a heavy hand on the stick to shed wings and tailplane."
While this book isn't really a technical resource, it is filled with accounts of pilots of the birds, many of them relating experiences from flying them in the war (for the warbirds anyway =) so it seems there may be some signifigance to the "tissue-paper" wings/tailplanes.
just my .02 on this one =)
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I'm not pointing at the wings comming off from compressibilty or over G. While this drives some people nuts; that's not my beef here.
I'm pointing at the aircrafts tailplane and wings as being modeled far to weak in damage resistance.. the AH Mustangs durbility under fire is atrocious.. Any fire. Cannon and MG pop a wing or knock off the fin far to easily.
Show me multiple sources that state "while it was a fast and capable long ranged fighter; it's durability under fire was such that when even minor hits were recieved on the wings or tailplane; the aircraft was destroyed." Or; "..although the .50's were potent weapons with time on target; they were unable to do significant damage in a snapshot"
IMHO, the planes damage model is not giving us a fair shake.
Hang
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Lets do some comparitive testing then, and see if it actually is significantly weaker than the other planes...
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Sure, Juzz.. lets. But frankly; it's a waste of time. I don't need to convince you. You don't write the code. I need to convince Pyro.
And I'd like to hear from him regarding this. Does HE want a demo? What do I have to do? Do I need to purchase $600.00 worth of technical historcal data on the plane? On it's contemporaries? No dammit; that's NOT the way it should be. If this damn plane is correct; then lets see the developer demonstrate WHY it is correct. THEY HAVE THE DATA. Lets see it.
My comments are based on over 2000 sorties in this plane; against everything in the sim. I fly the plane aggressivly; and FIGHT in it. Certainly, I have been exposed to plenty of fire in it. My words no good? I whine too much? Do I fill the buffer with crap about the AC on line?
Check the other threads. Particularly the
one on hardest/easiest AC in the sim to kill. #1 ranked plane; easiest to kill.. the P51.
It ain't a zeke.. yet the AH damage model for the P51 certainly belies the historcal record for the P51 as 'sturdy".
So; lets hear from the other guys that fly the Stang. Maybe THATS what will get Pyro's attention.
Look; I'm not trying to knock the sim. I've got an intrest in helping make this sim as good as it should be.. and I'm paying the price of a boxed sim every month for that privledge. I've done my job here.. and pointed at something I think ain't right and asked for an explanation for it. Now lets hear from HTC, and the rest of the people that actually fly and fight in it.
Hang
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I hate to post on such a topic due to the fact that the sim is still in the early stages .......but here is goes .
I've flown couple of the planes in the arenas
the spit,109 and mostly the 51.
IMHO I think the 51 is alittle to fragile.
I'm no expert by any means ! but I've talked to ppl that shot me down and seen films. most will tell you that they didn't have sustained burst or had snap shots that totally destroyed my 51. also one other thing that really seems funny.
when you get hit in the 51 the damage seems to always be in 2 places. tail or radiator areas. more or less what im trying to say is if you get hit once you are more than likely rtb.
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When I fly the Pony, the Damage I get the most is in the Tail, as compared to "loosing wings/Having wings cut off" with other planes I've flown...(This might be due to the fighting style i use when in the Pony though...not good enough to tell you the difference yet)
In planes like the Nikki or the F4U, I've survived a couple of pings and was able to get back home or ditch. In the pony : you hit me, I die or have to bail ASAP...
CavemanJ shot me in the Engine multiple times when I was in a Spit..and yet, I managed to get him before My engine died (REVEEEEENGE ! <g> )
My poor 2Cents
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Saw/Saintaw
BISHOP'S FINEST FLYING BRICK
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saw.gif)
186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 02-17-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 02-17-2000).]
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The point of testing is to see if the Mustang really is weaker when compared to the other planes in AH. Have you noted whether Mustangs you shoot up take less damage than a Spitfire or Macchi does?
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Originally posted by juzz:
Lets do some comparitive testing then, and see if it actually is significantly weaker than the other planes...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I tell you this from experience: Coyote had a 26 over F23 the other night and he bounced 10 Knit 51's that were heavy. the knits dropped ord and clawed for alt, (which they never did get) while Coyo kept them busy.
ArkanReb, Bee and I arrived on the scene all in Bish 51's and proceeded to salughter the knits with B&Z. I downed 4 or 5 with no more than a 2second burst each, firing at my convergence range. Nearly all of the 51's I hit disintegrated, lost wings, etc. and I ain't the hottest shot in AH by a long margin.
Tried the same thing against a 190 earlier and it took 3 passes before he went in. N1K's are mixed results with about 40% of them going down with a 2 second burst. Spits are 50/50 results and the Hawg... sheesh, it took a sustained 4 second burst to hurt him at all and he still made it home! :O
So, I have to agree with Hangtime, that the 51 is really a fabric and plywood P-40 in disguise. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Now if Pyro will let me back in... I can test these 50's on the rest of the plane sets.
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O.E. 'Tern' Dillon
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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"Have you noted whether Mustangs you shoot up take less damage than a Spitfire or Macchi does?"
Good lord; yes. The only plane a mustang can kill with a snapshot in this sim is another mustang. Fin comes right off.
Hang
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It just so happens that the P-51 is my favorite, but recently have had to switch to the F4u-1c just to be able to survive the first 3 minutes of an engagement. I am by no means an ace, or a master gunner... but i'll be damned if that paper-mache pony is gonna be tolerated for very long.
Lobby whoever we need to... but fix my bird cuz she just ain't competing in the AH arena.
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
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Im not a usual mustang pilot but I give it a try some more...
That large TOD film that Udie recorded at Lephturn's Aero; that stang was me... I took alot of hits and still ditched...
All my other deaths in stang were becuase attacking bombers too slow or something.. augered a few to but from what I know, I think 109 is less sturdy than a p51..
just my opinion..
regards,
DoctorYO
JG-2
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I've flown the stang a time or two myself. (Almost exclusively before tour 3.) That rudder is balsa wood, I'm telling you. I've also seen some very interesting things happen while shooting at a p51. About 2 weeks ago I saw a p51 below me at low speed. I split-s'ed behind him and opened fire at 400 yds away. I saw 2 pings from my FE, and then all of his tail came off, putting him into a straight up orientation, followed by the wings separating about 2 seconds later. He then proceeded to lawn-dart backwards into the ground. (I wish I would have filmed it, but it always seems that turning on the recorder brings certain death with it. Ex. Stupidity Awards thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
Hangtime, I agree with you, the stang appears to be pretty weak to me. But that's just my opinion.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Thanks gents.. I appreciate all your honest impressions regarding it's tail and wing collapse (or lack therof) when hit while flying in it; and your observations when slicing the fins off P51's when flying against it.
This is the kinda stuff we need to present to Pyro to make him aware of the condition.
Keep 'em commin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As a note: The A37/NA51 thru P51B had no dorsal.. structuraly; an even weaker configuration than the D models. Yet I can find no refrence to absurdly weak fins (or wings) being repeatedly blown away to enemy fire in ANY configuration of the Mustangs flown in combat.
Hang
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Spitfire has alot weaker tail than P-51..
Like I've said before, spitfire loses horizontal stab with one direct hit into there. (I've experienced it, I've done it for several)
What comes for P-51, I have not noticed any one single problem with its durability or guns (well, inline engine might only problem)
I have done very well 8 kill sorties in a P-51 out of flying enemies, even when having just 2 guns left.
Only thing it needs, is to cool up your wrecking patience and wait for close & good shot.
Also, I have taken some beating in P-51, have flown it few times home with some part missing.
In 109 I can't say that same, it takes couple hits from cannons or so and chopchop..
One damage is much more lethal in 109. (Ie. it can't land without wingtip, like p51 does, even without both wingtips)
Spitfire loses tail parts easily also. (stabs)
N1K2.. thats one tough bastard I say.
F4u also.
C.205 is also almost like 109, you can't really fly it for long without a wingtip (Ack once chopped both wingtips, I had to ditch because even 15 MAN did make it roll due to torque. I had to roll it home on the earth level)
What we have here, is that P-51 takes fairly damage among these other planes, with less minuses from damage, being alot more flyable than other planes.
Maybe I do something wrong in P-51 compared to some of you others, who complains about guns being weak and plane being fragile...
but I feel it as fairly good at the moment.
NOTE: ONE PING that you hear MIGHT be 10 HITS!
So if you get lined up 200 yards front of enemy plane, he dumps 20 hits withing very short time on you, you'll hear 2 pings.
One thing you can do is to have code adjusted.
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I've noticed the glass vert stab of the P-51 but for the life of me as many times as I've been shot down, I still can't tell any difference in ability to absorb damage from one fighter to another. The only real difference is between radial engines and liquid cooled, radials run longer after getting damaged.
Same with killing, all fighters seem to go down with about the same number of pings.
In WB the 190 seems to absorb a lot of damage where the Zero disintegrates if you look at it hard. Here I just can't tell any difference.
--ra--
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What if HTC hasn't gotten around to doing individual damage modeling for each plane-type as yet? They've been pretty busy...
We'd all look pretty silly pointing out these perceived differences then, wouldn't we?
...and HT and Pyro would be reading this thread every morning with their coffee and ROFLTAO to get the day off to a good start...
hey, it _could_ be true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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They have done damage models for each plane, but they're still working on more accurate models, what I am aware of..
What I heard, they're going to model strenghts etc. stuff of different kind of armour materials for the planes still..
For my guess, we're currently running with planes that all has same armour, but which uses "hitpoint" modelling... (each bullet is ### amount of damage, then part gets enough ## and it breaks)
Can't wait for the model how different material absorbs damage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .. or whatever its called eh..
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Well, how about it Pyro? HT?
We all love the game..we're not going to run away over the damage model.
So, do all planes have their own model yet?
What's the current status?
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Hang looks at calander. looks at watch. looks at date on first post.. looks back at calander.
(sound of crickets)
Well?? Pyro? HiTech?? Wuzzup?
Hang
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Ok I have to agree with Hangtime on this one even though I come into the thread a little late. I fly the 51 exclusively and to tell you the truth that vertical stab is paper. Now granted one ping we here may be in fact more than one round, but 75% of my deaths are when I hear one ping and all of a sudden my vertical stab is not there anymore and I'm falling. In combat.. I tend to chase down a 51 because I KNOW for certain that a quick 1 sec burst into that tail is gonna kill it. I really do think they need to toughen up the tail and wings sections just a little bit. Now I go for HO's in a 51 because I have a better chance of not taking critical damage to my plane. Just my 2 cents on the matter, but believe me is frustrating to hear that one ping (5rounds?) and watch the plane nose up cause your vert sta is gone.
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BaneX
=357th Pony Express=
"Need a package delivered? Call the Pony Express"