Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fudgums on June 17, 2009, 02:42:38 PM
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Found this article(http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/30-18346.aspx) and thought what were the my top 15 battles.
Based on my favorites/interesting
1. Battle of Bulge- My favorite
2. Battle of Normandy
3. Battle of Stalingrad
4. Rangoon
5. Poland 39
6. Battle of Midway
7.Anzio Beach
8.Battle of Leyte Gulf
9. Battle for Berlin
10. Battle of Britain
11.Guadalcanal
12. El Alamein
13. Kursk
14. Okinawa
15. Iwo Jima
Top 5- changers of the war
1. Battle of Midway- Turned the tide in the Pacific
2. Battle of Stalingrad- stopped Germany's advance into Soviet Union
3. Normandy- The beginning of the end for Germany in WWII
4. Leyte Gulf- Finished off the Japanese navy in WWII
5. Battle of Bulge- Germany's last offensive to win the War in the West.
Whats yalls.
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1. Guadalcanal
2. Bulge
3. Normandy
4. Midway
5. Iwo Jima
6. Saipan
7. Tarawa
8. Peleliu
9. Stalingrad
10. Kursk
11. Anzio
12. Salerno
13. Coral Sea
14. Leyte Gulf
15. Singapore.
Top 5 - War Changers:
1. Coral Sea -
2. Midway -
3. Guadalcanal -
4. North Africa -
5. Stalingrad -
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Bulge
Iwo Jima
Britan
El Alemain
Kursk
Normandy
Okinawa
Stalingrad
Anzio
Monte Cassino
War changers
El Alemain-was the furthest Rommle advansed if I member correctly
Midway-If we had lost- we would have most likely lost the war in the pacific. Oh we may have kept Hawaii but still.
Stalingrad-stoped the German advance.
Sicily-Was the end of the begining for Germany
Normandy-Marked the begining of the end.
Bulge-If Germany had succeded then they would have reached Allied fule dumps on the coast and that would have allowed them to keep going. I doubt it would have won them the war; the soviets had gotten to far to stop them. And Germany may have been able to cut a corridor to the sea but she wouldn't have been able to throw us into the sea.
ya, I know I listed 16; it was kinda a tie.
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Battle of Normandy
Battle of Atlantic
Battle of Iwo Jima
Battle of Philippines
Battle of Britain
Battle of Kursk
Battle of El Alamein
Battle of Prussia
Battle of Stalingrad
Operation Market Garden
New Guinea campaign
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What the hell is Prussia?
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Battle in 1944, dont know much about it though
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I'd have to rate Guadalcanal above Midway as far as importance. Not just for its strategic impact on the Pacific War itself, (to be frank, the US could have lost Midway but still won the war. Japan's fleet would have been over-extended trying to hold Midway for any significant length of time). It was the first (major, at least) naval invasion undertaken by the Allies so formed much of the groundwork for the planning and tactics of all the subsequent sea-borne invasions made by the Allies throughout the war.
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I'd have to rate Guadalcanal above Midway as far as importance. Not just for its strategic impact on the Pacific War itself, (to be frank, the US could have lost Midway but still won the war. Japan's fleet would have been over-extended trying to hold Midway for any significant length of time). It was the first (major, at least) naval invasion undertaken by the Allies so formed much of the groundwork for the planning and tactics of all the subsequent sea-borne invasions made by the Allies throughout the war.
Loosing Midway would open the Pacific to the continental 48. Also winning at Midway turned the tide of war as well as the first(I know coral sea but go with it) major US victory in the Pacific. Which brought morale up greatly(correct me if Im wrong there)
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Yes, Japan would have been overextended but if japan had attacked one of our other carriers instead of the Yorktown twice then we would have had 0-2 carriers in the Pacific if I remember correctly. OK, .........again, we may have kept Hawaii but then again maby not. I'm not saying Japan could have landed on the U.S. coast and taken any real ammount of land. I think that the U.S. coast would have been WAY to heavily defended. AND we would have been able to throw carrier and land based aircraft into the mix (land based planes based there normaly and carrier based planes that were ment for carriers but there were none avaliable or not enough to take all of them), Where as Japan would have been able to use only Naval based planes.
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What the hell is Prussia?
Prussia was a Germanic empire that existed from the 1500's until the Unification of Germany in 1871. It was one of the most powerful German countries until the Unification and its capital (Berlin) became the capital of the unified German empire.
This is how Central Europe looked from 1815-1866, Prussia (marked in identified in German, 'Preußen') is dark blue (and the light blue to the east of it I think, just added later... the map says '1848-1851 zum Deutschen Bund', but not to what country)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Deutscher_Bund.png)
The Battle of Prussia probably refers to fighting around Koenigsberg, today the Russian city of Kaliningrad (the original Prussian capital) and other areas of Eastern Prussia, though I can't say I've ever heard of a Battle of Prussia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia
I would have to say that the most interesting WWII battles for me are the Battles of Britain, Kursk, Stalingrad, El Alamein, and Berlin, and the Siege of Moscow.
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I think Midway was a very important battle. If the US had lost it could have impacted the out come of Guadalcanal. Assuming Japan didn't loose all four carriers, they could have been used to support the troop landings during the battle, which could have turned things in their favour. A loss at Midway would have also meant that Hawaii would have been bombed around the clock. This also could have given the Japanese an opportunity to launch an invasion on the islands. However even if all that happened I couldn't really see the Allies losing the pacific war. A negotiated settlement was out the question, after what happened at Pearl Harbor, so the US was certain to continue the war effort. Our production capacity could not be matched by the Japanese. The war may have been longer, but in the end it still would have been only a matter of time.
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I'd have to rate Guadalcanal above Midway as far as importance. Not just for its strategic impact on the Pacific War itself, (to be frank, the US could have lost Midway but still won the war. Japan's fleet would have been over-extended trying to hold Midway for any significant length of time). It was the first (major, at least) naval invasion undertaken by the Allies so formed much of the groundwork for the planning and tactics of all the subsequent sea-borne invasions made by the Allies throughout the war.
Dunno Sax, what if the Japanese had not even gone after Midway? Had they initially pursued a campaign in the South Pacific to cutoff Australia from the US instead of going for the knockout punch at Midway...
They would have had four more fleet carriers to throw into the Solomons. Not to mention the troops wasted in the Aleutions which was nothing more than a Battle of Midway sidebar.
I'm not convinced we could have had the same success in the Solomons had the Battle of Midway not taken place first. Just my opinion YMMV.
<S>
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Prussia was a Germanic empire that existed from the 1500's until the Unification of Germany in 1871. It was one of the most powerful German countries until the Unification and its capital (Berlin) became the capital of the unified German empire.
Nitpick mode: On
Prussia was never an empire. It was a territory/state that evolved from duchy to kingdom, but never into an empire, there never was a "Emperor of Prussia"
And as a kingdom, it became part of the new German Empire in 1871. with the new Emperor Wilhelm I also still being King of Prussia.
Hijack: Off
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The threat to Hawaii and the Continental 48 posed by the loss of Midway is SERIOUSLY exaggerated. Pearl Harbor only worked because the US didn't expect it, underestimated the Japanese, and serious fumbles at the top of the US military's chain of command.
Attacking Pearl or the continental US during a full wartime situation even with Midway in Japanese hands would have been near-suicide. The distance was too great (Japan's reach was over-extended just attacking Midway as it is) and Midway wasn't equipped as a staging area for fleet operations: before the war it was mainly a refueling stop for long-range civilian flights between the US and the Far East. The Japanese didn't have many aircraft that could make it from Midway to Hawaii, (~1500 miles) much less all the way to the US West Cost (~2800 miles away). To say Hawaii would have been "bombed around the clock" is ludicrous. Any land-based bombers that attempted such a mission would have been unescorted, and we all know just how well unescorted bombers fare against concerted fighter defenses. It would have taken very little to move the US fleet out of reach, anyway. Oh, this is also forgetting to mention that we had Japan's military codes broken so would have seen it coming long before the Japanese fleet could lift anchor. At best it could have served as a Japanese submarine base and a base for long-range reconnaissance planes, but definitely not as a practical staging point for strikes on the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, much less any significant offensive further west.
Dunno Sax, what if the Japanese had not even gone after Midway? Had they initially pursued a campaign in the South Pacific to cutoff Australia from the US instead of going for the knockout punch at Midway...
They would have had four more fleet carriers to throw into the Solomons. Not to mention the troops wasted in the Aleutions which was nothing more than a Battle of Midway sidebar.
I'm not convinced we could have had the same success in the Solomons had the Battle of Midway not taken place first. Just my opinion YMMV.
THAT is the importance of Midway: What it allowed to happen. But it wasn't actually the magical pivotal point of the war history makes it out to be. We could have lost Midway and still won the war. We could have won at Midway and still LOST the war. However the strategic results of Guadalcanal (more of Japan's experienced pilots were killed in the Solomons than at Midway, as LARGE numbers of Japan's experienced pilots were trapped on their ships when the carriers went down and were pulled from the water again) were far more significant.
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Nitpick mode: On
Prussia was never an empire. It was a territory/state that evolved from duchy to kingdom, but never into an empire, there never was a "Emperor of Prussia"
And as a kingdom, it became part of the new German Empire in 1871. with the new Emperor Wilhelm I also still being King of Prussia.
Hijack: Off
I've always thought that an Empire was a country that ruled over various lands/peoples (like Brandenburg being part of Prussia), not only a country that was ruled by an emperor. Like the British, Spanish empire etc, which were ruled by kings but controlled vast areas of land outside and many different peoples of their original area.
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The threat to Hawaii and the Continental 48 posed by the loss of Midway is SERIOUSLY exaggerated. Pearl Harbor only worked because the US didn't expect it, underestimated the Japanese, and serious fumbles at the top of the US military's chain of command.
Attacking Pearl or the continental US during a full wartime situation even with Midway in Japanese hands would have been near-suicide. The distance was too great (Japan's reach was over-extended just attacking Midway as it is) and Midway wasn't equipped as a staging area for fleet operations: before the war it was mainly a refueling stop for long-range civilian flights between the US and the Far East. The Japanese didn't have many aircraft that could make it from Midway to Hawaii, (~1500 miles) much less all the way to the US West Cost (~2800 miles away). To say Hawaii would have been "bombed around the clock" is ludicrous. Any land-based bombers that attempted such a mission would have been unescorted, and we all know just how well unescorted bombers fare against concerted fighter defenses. It would have taken very little to move the US fleet out of reach, anyway. Oh, this is also forgetting to mention that we had Japan's military codes broken so would have seen it coming long before the Japanese fleet could lift anchor. At best it could have served as a Japanese submarine base and a base for long-range reconnaissance planes, but definitely not as a practical staging point for strikes on the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, much less any significant offensive further west.
THAT is the importance of Midway: What it allowed to happen. But it wasn't actually the magical pivotal point of the war history makes it out to be. We could have lost Midway and still won the war. We could have won at Midway and still LOST the war. However the strategic results of Guadalcanal (more of Japan's experienced pilots were killed in the Solomons than at Midway, as LARGE numbers of Japan's experienced pilots were trapped on their ships when the carriers went down and were pulled from the water again) were far more significant.
I'm not denying the importance of Guadalcanal and the Solomons. Far from it. I am saying though Midway was a big contributing factor to the success Solomons. Of course more of Japans experienced pilots were lost in the Solomons. The Battle of Midway was over in three days, where the Solomons was an entire campaign. Nobody can deny that. The Battle of Midway was a bad idea and was handled badly by the IJN. I agree the Solomons was much more crucial to the war. Therefore I'm convinced assets squandered at Midway could very well had helped Japan win in the Solomons in 1942/43.
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I've always thought that an Empire was a country that ruled over various lands/peoples (like Brandenburg being part of Prussia),
Even by that definition, Prussia wouldn't still be classified as an empire, else almost every state/country would be one. Let me quote: "Geopolitically, the term empire has denoted very different, territorially-extreme states"
Brandenburg was a part of Prussia, and it's a part of Germany today.
As for the topic, I have no "top" battles ;)
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Midway - Possibly the most crucial American battle of the war. Defeat would have resulted in a very very limited carrier fleet for the USN and IJN supremacy.
Siege of Leningrad - Longest battle of the war. Had Leningrad fallen to the Germans at any point during the siege, especially towards the beginning, the Soviets in Moscow would have had to deal with a much larger German force.
Battle of Britain - Heroic defense of the British isles by the RAF against the Luftwaffe. Failure to defend the islands well would have resulted in a ground invasion by the Germans. Large turning point in the war as the USSR became allied with Britain and the U.S. as a result.
Battle of Stalingrad - Another large turning point. It was the home of the most gruesome fighting of the war, with snipers, infantry and tanks and aircraft battling it out, all in an urban setting. Defeat of the Soviets would have allowed the southern front to open up to the Germans.
Invasion of Normandy - As previously stated, it was beginning of the end for the Germans. Eventually led to the liberation of Paris by the Americans, British, and Canadiens and the push inland, all the way to western Germany.
Battle of Kursk - Largest Tank battle in history. Propelled the Soviets even deeper towards Germany and destroyed many of the German Tank brigades on the Eastern Front.
El Alamein - Turning point of N. Africa. Also defeated one of Germany's top commanders, Erwin Rommel. Victory led to the German surrender at Tunis and the invasion of Sicily.
Guadalcanal - First major offensive of the war by the US. Big victory for the Americans and gained them valuable air bases.
Coral Sea - Eliminated a large IJN Carrier strike force. Large boost of morale to American soldiers. First battle of Carrier to Carrier combat in history.
Battle of the Bulge - Ended just about all major German resistance on the western front and eliminated most of their air force.
Battle of China/Rangoon - Forgotten about a lot, was a major thorn in Japan's side throughout the war, with the USSR and US helping China and the British/Americans fighting throughout Burma. Saw the first successful use of volunteers as an effective fighting force (Flying Tigers).
Many others such as Saipan, Iwo Jima and Okinawa, Monte Casino, Anzio, Narvik and Karelia, but these stick out the most to me.
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Midway, is ~1,300 miles from Oahu, which puts it well within range of the G3M2, G3M3, and G4M1. If fighter cover became a problem they would have switched to night time raids. So it is not ludicrous to say 'round the clock bombing' would have been possible. In any case that is not what is important. The simple threat alone from Midway would have tied up several resources to defend Hawaii, whether Japan ran a successful bombing campaign or not. Resources that would not have been available for the Solomons and Guadalcanal, which in turn could have affected their historic out comes. In the end I think Japan would still loose the war. But a victory at Midway might have bought them a little bit more time, and certainly would have made things more difficult for the allies.
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15 is too many... It leads to generalizing. Think smaller, both in terms of battles and the number.
As an example, there were no less than 8 major engagements during the Battle of the Bulge. Each distinct and vital to Germany's success or failure. I'll discuss the most important of these later, and it was not the defense of Bastogne.
I will select three "top" battles. These are all overlooked, but very important in more than a few aspects.
The three most amazing battles in my mind would have to include the following: The engagement off of Samar, where the might of Japan's surface fleet was defeated by a tiny force of Destroyers, DEs and CVEs. This was the most incredible naval victory of the war. It was the literal end of Japanese sea power, and established that the U.S. Navy had grown into the most proficient naval power on earth. Go find a copy of "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" by James Hornfischer.
The defense of Wake Island is second in my opinion. In every way, this was a serious defeat for Japan, despite occupying the island. Had the Navy commander not surrendered the garrison when he did, the remaining Japanese troops on Wake may have been driven into the sea. It's doubtful that the Japanese reserves would have been sufficient to reverse that situation and Japan would have suffered a second great humiliation in their attempt to capture Wake. No doubt they would have eventually prevailed. Yet, a defeat of that magnitude, that early in the war would have shaken the military's confidence and undermined their assumption that Americans were soft and unwilling to sacrifice.
Get a copy of "Given Up for Dead: America's Heroic Stand at Wake Island" by Bill Sloan.
My last choice would be the defense of St.Vith, during the early days of the Battle of the Bulge. The remarkable and stubborn defense of this town completely unraveled the German time table. No other engagement during the Bulge did more harm to the German plan than the defense of this little village. Eventually, the American forces were withdrawn, but the damage was already done. The north shoulder of the Bulge was secured and the entire German effort was trashed.
A great story comes out of this fight, or should I say the withdrawal. The son of American humorist Will Rogers (Will Rogers Jr.) was leading a small column of vehicles out of St. Vith. A few miles northwest, Rogers' Sherman rolled around a bend to a cross roads and came upon a lone GI digging a foxhole alongside the road. The soldier's 2.5" bazooka was resting against a tree. Stopping the tank, Rogers asked what unit the GI was with.
"I'm the 82nd Airborne", said the soldier, "and this is as far as those bastards are going."
Rogers chuckled and called down to the tank's driver. "Pull in behind that guy, we'll make our stand here."
For the record, that WAS as far as those bastards got.
My regards,
Widewing
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Normandy
Stalingrad
Pearl harbor
Battle over europe
midway
Battle of the atlantic
Battle of Prokhorovka
kursk
Battle of the bulge
Iwo jima
Market garden
Battle of san bernidino straigths (w00t go Gpa, helsman of the uss herrman of taffy 3)
el alimiein
scicly
battle of berlin
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15 is too many... It leads to generalizing. Think smaller, both in terms of battles and the number.
As an example, there were no less than 8 major engagements during the Battle of the Bulge. Each distinct and vital to Germany's success or failure. I'll discuss the most important of these later, and it was not the defense of Bastogne.
I will select three "top" battles. These are all overlooked, but very important in more than a few aspects.
The three most amazing battles in my mind would have to include the following: The engagement off of Samar, where the might of Japan's surface fleet was defeated by a tiny force of Destroyers, DEs and CVEs. This was the most incredible naval victory of the war. It was the literal end of Japanese sea power, and established that the U.S. Navy had grown into the most proficient naval power on earth. Go find a copy of "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" by James Hornfischer.
The defense of Wake Island is second in my opinion. In every way, this was a serious defeat for Japan, despite occupying the island. Had the Navy commander not surrendered the garrison when he did, the remaining Japanese troops on Wake may have been driven into the sea. It's doubtful that the Japanese reserves would have been sufficient to reverse that situation and Japan would have suffered a second great humiliation in their attempt to capture Wake. No doubt they would have eventually prevailed. Yet, a defeat of that magnitude, that early in the war would have shaken the military's confidence and undermined their assumption that Americans were soft and unwilling to sacrifice.
Get a copy of "Given Up for Dead: America's Heroic Stand at Wake Island" by Bill Sloan.
Widewing
The Battle off Samar would make for a great movie. When reading the account of the Johnston I was nearly brought to tears when reading that the crew of one of the Japanese cruisers that finally put her down were so awed by the tenacity and ferocity of her attacks that they manned the rails as Johnston's crew abandoned ship. And I mean in the very audible choking up sort of way.
As for Wake, IIRC the Saratoga was actually within maybe a day or two of arriving to relieve the garrison when Kimmell was removed from command, and I THINK it was Nimitz who ordered her to turn back home. Had Kimmell not been made a scapegoat for Pearl, the Battle of Wake Island may have had an entirely different ending.
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Been At this WWII hobby for a long time...
So long that I have forgotten as much as I ever learned...
Its just too big a story for 1 person to get a handle on ALL of it...
And most of the well known, and heavily documented battles, have
become a rehash for me... Nothing new, same ol stuff....
So I have been studying up on the lesser known battles of
the war...
New Guinie< never could spell that offhand!!!
Port Moresby to Buna Mission, over the Owen Stanley Mtns...
Kharkov, I II III....
Smolensk (1941) and Operation Typhoon...
Operation Crusader, and the relief of Tobruk..
Oder Crossing...
Suomusalmii.. Kind of interesting trying to find
Finnish>English translations..
EPIC lopsided battle, where the underdog WINS!!
Much written about it, IN FINNISH, LOL!!!
An English language bibliography from our AH Finnish
contingent would be really helpful!!!
:salute RC
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Attacking Pearl or the continental US during a full wartime situation even with Midway in Japanese hands would have been near-suicide. The distance was too great (Japan's reach was over-extended just attacking Midway as it is) and Midway wasn't equipped as a staging area for fleet operations: before the war it was mainly a refueling stop for long-range civilian flights between the US and the Far East. The Japanese didn't have many aircraft that could make it from Midway to Hawaii, (~1500 miles) much less all the way to the US West Cost (~2800 miles away). To say Hawaii would have been "bombed around the clock" is ludicrous. Any land-based bombers that attempted such a mission would have been unescorted, and we all know just how well unescorted bombers fare against concerted fighter defenses
Ok, I admit you have a point. We, may have been in SOME danger if Japan had followed up the Pear Harbor attacks with a landing and had taken the islands. It would be almost impossible to loose the war with the industrial lead we had over Japan. We would have had to be dumb enough to leave the West Coast un defended and even then there is no way we would have LOST. We could have easily re-taken any land lost with how far Japan would have been over streached.