Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Pongo on February 21, 2000, 09:22:00 AM
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I was kinda supprised how well I have done on the f4u1c so I looked at the overall plane vs stats. The 1c is nearly 2 to 1 against all planes while the 1d is nearly 1 to 3. For comparison the c47 is 1 to 10. The numbers are much smaller but the 1d has enough to be signifigant. I know the 1c is excellently armed but the 1d has the same guns as a 51 which is no slouch... I think that people just fly the 1c way more aggressivly. But we can do better that 1 to 3...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Over the last 2 tours of duty, I actually have a slightly better K/D in the D model than I do in the C model Hog. I can rack up slightly more kills in the C if the opportunity presents itself, but not a whole lot. I think this entire situation can be explained by three things:
1. 99% of the folks flying a Hog who are experienced are flying the C. (I'm the 1%. <G> ) This means that most of those flying the D model would tend to be less experienced pilots... this is just a guess.
2. The Hog is the best vulchmobile in the game. When somebody calls that ack is down and they need a tight vulch, you will see a 1/2 dozen Hog C's there to do the job. This inflates the C model's kill stats incredibly.
3. Some of the experten have gravitated to the Hog-C since it is the best BnZ platform in the game IMHO. It's killer guns make it a one-pass-wonder in the hands of a good pilot who knows how to fly the BnZ properly. I'm sure the Hog-C has pulled some away from the likes of the FW. Wait until we get the A4-5 series FW for this to switch back.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Leph, if you like B and Z planes, try the LA-5, I think it holds E better than the hog, and definately outclimbs it! Ya just have to make sure your shots count, only 2x20mm.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/lrg0004.jpg)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2000).]
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Just imagine if we finally get the La-7 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Slightly lighter than the La-5, and less drag, but the same engine, and should have almost the exact same handling characteristics. But it should top out at about 420 mph.
Oh and did I mention that if the 1945 armament package is an option, it will have x3 20mm cannons, with only a very slight weight penalty (same shell, different gun).
Please Oh Please Oh Please Pyro.
The VVS deserves a late war plane as well as any other country, and the La7 would be the easiest due to art considerations.
Of course you could really suprise us and give us a Yak-9U or Yak-3. And either of these planes would easily convert art wise to the entire Yak series. (Yak-1,Yak-9,Yak-3).
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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All I can say about the LA-7 in the AH future is.....<Schwing!> Look out Pony Pilots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/lrg0004.jpg)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2000).]
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Leph
Yup
Yup
Yup.
I think the aggressivness is a factor too. You can shoot your way out of trouble with the 1c.
LA7 will be nice when it comes.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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CannonBirds. Yawwwwwwwwwwwwn!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I Fly the C Hog exclusively beacuse:
it's the time it needs to kill an opponent..
Usually if you make a pass on the bogie and you are not very lucky he'll see you and evade (split S most of the times) ... now with the right setup you can still kill this bogie in the C Hog with only 1 half decent shot oportunity ..
In the D hog i usually need too long to kill an enemy, or he even has enough time to let me manouver around enough untill i blew all my E and HE kills me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
That makes an awfull lot of difference when you kill 3 bogies in the time you need for 1 with the D
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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Hunh.
50 gazzillion posts I've read on gunnery..
Rate of fire on cannons.. when I fly the 1C I rarely miss a snaphot. Plane flys thru the stream.. 2-3 hits; planes dead.
Rate of fire on the six .50's.. when I fly the P51 I rarely kill with a snapshot. Plane flys thru the stream; 2-3 hits; plane is unfazed.
SHELL STREAM DENSITY ON MG'S UNDERMODELED!
I don't think the cannons are overmodeled; but gawdamn; the .50's are atrociously undermodeled in this situation. I've been told they were 'turned down' for 'play balance'. Time on target shots with the .50's seem fine; but no way they are right in a snapshot. And a P51; P38; F4U1D; and P47 are best flown to snapshot solutions.. not turning lag/lead situations.. these are B&Z planes that have had their B&Z armament gelded.
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o!
Sorry fer the rant.. It just bugs me no end that all those turn on a dime cannon wagons are about and the MG B&Z planes are the ones that get the 'play balance' adjustment.
<PUNT>
Hang
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
I don't think the cannons are overmodeled; but gawdamn; the .50's are atrociously undermodeled in this situation. I've been told they were 'turned down' for 'play balance'.
I seem to recall sometime around the start of beta tour 2 someone saying the .50s had been turned down for playability issues.
Here lately the .50s have really been sucking hard. HT and Pyro say the balistics models haven't changed. This leaves 2 options IMO. Something got changed accidentally and unnoticed, or in the tweaking of the damage model the fighters hardness was increased to the point that the .50s are worthless. Something has deffinately changed started with version 1.00, and it seems even worse in 1.03, with the .50s on the buffs. It takes more and more ammo to get a kill on a fighter that's diving on me. And it's _not_ my gunnery =)
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Read this about firing ranges... and diff between guns and cannons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm (http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm)
BEE
Nemo impune lacessit
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/bee.gif)
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I may have to fly the 51 more since reading Hang's post...haven't flown it since V.34...one thing I did notice in the 1 sortie I've had in it lately (maybe 2) was the .50's were not as "potent" as the 20mm,(historically correct) and shouldn't be, but talk about a flatter projectory!, takes awhile to get used to after compensating for the tremendous bullet drop in the 30mm cannon of FW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/lrg0004.jpg)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2000).]
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thanks for that link Bee, I enjoyed reading it.
Later that month Parr used the F-86F's A-4 lead computing gun sight to take out his seventh victim at a phenomenal 4,800 feet!!
(taken from the article Bee linked)
That's a 1600 yard kill with 6 .50s. I'm sure it took a fair amount of ammo to get that kill. AFAIK the AH .50s haven't been able to pull of shots like that at anytime.
Either way ya slice it, I think the .50s need some serious looking at, and turn them up to full strength. Conversely, you can pull all other airframe mounted guns down by the same % as the .50s are (which, IMO, is a VERY bad idea =)
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Dammo Bee.. good read. thanks.
" More than enough. A one second burst was all that was needed,"
Humph. IMHO the AH .50's ain't right.
I vote they fix em.. not tune down the damn cannons too.
Hang
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MGs haven't been changed in a long time, certainly not since version 1.00. The last change BTW made them stronger. The only change ever made that would have made them weaker was when we implemented energy loss at range, something I'm pretty sure we did before we went open beta.
I have been looking at some things and one change I'll be changing is to give the 20mm's more of a reduction in damage at long range.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."
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That will be telling...there is only one 20mm with a consistant long range capability in the game...the M2
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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The .50's seem "right" to me, and have since I started playing AH.
I nailed HT last night in the Training Arena with a quick snapshot that winged his spit. This was no sustained burst, but it was near convergence... down he went. If I am outside of convergence it's much less likely I do lethal damage quickly, but I can get the job done most times. I fly the F4U-1D and have no trouble getting kills. Sure, the 1C is a snap-shot beast, but I do almost as well in the 1D.
Hangtime, have you ever been online and watched my squad mate Vila rack up the kills in the Pony? He lands 6-10 kill sorties with regularity, and I've seen him do 7 kill sorties where he didn't vulch even once. If there was a true lethality problem with the .50's, I don't think he could do this. BTW, Vila is unreal in the Pony and I think he is holding about a 7:1 K/D in it right now. Pretty good for a bird some folks have been calling "paper mache'" with "weak guns".
I find the lethality right on for the .50's. Great trajectory and ROF, easy to hit with compared to cannons. However, the .50's are very dependent upon convergence settings, as I think they should be. If I am in my convergence range, I can kill with snapshots almost as well as I can in the 1C hog. If I'm outside of convergence, then I don't have the snapshot power, but even then a tracking shot doesn't take too much ammo to down the target.
I don't see a problem. AH has hands-down the best gunnery modelling I've seen. Both the cannons and the MG's seem to have their historical strengths and weaknesses to me, and that is the goal IMHO.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Lephturn, one major thing wrong with your arguement, you can't take one of the best pilots in the game (Vila) and use his record as a basis for the performance of an aircraft or its guns.
You would have to compare Vila's performance in a .50's Plane directly to his performance in a Mk-II 20mm aircraft, preferabely in the same airframe (ie -1C vs -1D). Then you have to run a sufficent number of sorties in each, under the same flight conditions, to be statistically significant.
Otherwise there are too many factors that come into play that make the entire arguement invalid.
Realistically, Vila could probably get more kills per sortie in a Brewster Buffalo (not the Super-Finnish model (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) than most people can get in a P-51D. Does that mean the Buffalo is a superior plane or adequate to fly day to day in the main arena for the majority of pilots??
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by Pyro:
I have been looking at some things and one change I'll be changing is to give the 20mm's more of a reduction in damage at long range.
Does this mean turning them down for "play balancing"? I'd rather that not happen, as much as I hate being killed by cannon hawgs and watching them fly away unaffected by the weak-arsed .50s on me bombers. And about that 1600yd kill mentioned in that article, shouldna the buffs be able to get kills out that far, assuming the gunner can keep the lead on target? That would be very detrimental to the spit drivers who like to sit back at 1200yds and spray and pray (and there've many take me down like that) the whole while I'm showing constant hits on them from me guns. They end up getting me wing and fly away undamaged.
And maybe we could have longer convergence settings on the buffs? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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IMO, the 20mm are dead on with my experience with weapons of that caliber... honestly, how may ppl here know what its like to fire one of these? or a .50 cal? Pyro and the rest of the crew have done some outstanding work with the FM and damage statistics... only one exception... the .50 cal will still pierce an inch of plate steel at 1600m, so the loss of damage at range would be a bit of a dubious effort. How many planes in the game are covered by 1" thick skin??? so you can imagine the airframe is gonna be suckin bad when hit with one of these shells.. HE, AP or any other. These are really powerful weapons guys. If any doubts arise... I will send Pyro the TM for the M2 .50 cal."The Ma Deuce"
So in conclusion... changing anything other than the lethality of the .50 cal(an increase)at distance would be a shame... if its not broke.. don't fix it.
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
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Sorry, but i have one other comment here.
In regard to bomber guns-damage, and head-ons. Has anyone here ever seen what happens when a hole is made on an aircraft? especially on a lift providing surface?
If not, let me walk you thru it. Lets say you are in the tailgun position on a buff, and a P-51 is in your sights- say, 1.0k even, picture one of the 50 cal projectiles hitting the leading edge of the right wing.
What does this do? It creates a hole, approximately .75 inches wide, now... this just caused that inner section of the wing to become a balloon. (ever seen an indy car slightly lift up its front end at 210mp??? It flips right over...well imagine what happens at 400mph while chasing another aircraft. Aircraft are covered with thin metal, this metal will tear and even peel off at that speed. (1)one (single) yes one, .50 cal round can and most likely will tear a wing off... So, the projectile went in the wing and out the other side..(.50's don't stop at anything in an aircraft... sorry) that wing is gone. Cockpit Armor? my ass... ain't stoppin no .50 cal. most you could hope for is to deflect an oblique shot.
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
U.S. Army Military Police
"In God we trust, all others we investigate"
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
[This message has been edited by SC-GManMP (edited 02-22-2000).]
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Actually it depends on how the damage model currently calculates damage of the 20mm (or any other weapon), before I would say if a change is right or wrong.
The Kinetic Energy portion of the shell, should decrease over distance in a fairly linear proportion. If this isn't happening, then yes I say an adjustment to all guns over range is needed.
However, the Chemical (explosive) Energy of the explosive portion of the shell should stay constant over distance. It doesnt' matter if it hits you right out of the barrel, or it hits you 3 miles down range. Its the same amount of explosive.
And I can tell you that in 20mm shells, the explosive is what counts.
Right out of the barrel of a Hispano MkII 20mm, the kinetic energy of the shell is about 557 kilojoules. The explosive energy is about 636 kilojoules of energy, of which some portion is applied to an airframe depending on where it explodes.
Now the 20mm shell slows down quickly over range (in comparison to heavy MG rounds), which decreases the kinetic impact. The explosive component never changes with range, however.
So the deciding factor of damage with a 20mm is the explosive content, which does not decrease over range, as does the kinetic component.
So does the current kinetic component of damage change over distance? If not then it needs to. For all weapons actually, not just 20mm's.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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the .50s are very range dependant it seems
been a few times I've come out of my norden in time to jump to a gun and catch a bandit that made a bad pass and I saw his wing off with a 1 second burst at 200-300yds.
but, same bandit, back at 900yds, will absorb a 5-6second burst (showing hit sprites the whole time) and fly away undamaged after spraying and praying my wing off.
anyway ya slice it, they're broke and need fixin IMO
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Just a small addition to your excellent post Verm.
The total effectiveness of even a cannon round is greatly increased on the inside or vital parts of the airframe. So its kinetic capabilities are still somewhat important as a means of getting the round to a vital spot..
Although we are talking about fairly fragile constructs from a penetration stand point..At some point the fusing will explode the round on contact and that will be less effective.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 02-22-2000).]
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Pyro.. may I respectfully submit that regardless of any changes made or not made in MG modeling in the recent or distant past that bullet stream density and range letahality as curently modeled is not correct.
Data; historical reports and objective observations have been made, all indicating an issue is present with the MG's.
Nobody here feels the cannon modeling is drasticly incorrect. Most all feel that the MG's are undermodeled either in stream density or range lethality; or both.
That is the issue. Please adjust he MG's. Not the cannons.
Thank you.
Hang
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Lepturn.. QUOTE:
"Hangtime, have you ever been online and watched my squad mate Vila rack up the kills in the Pony? He lands 6-10 kill sorties with regularity, and I've seen him do 7 kill sorties where he didn't vulch even once. If there was a true lethality problem with the .50's, I don't think he could do this. BTW, Vila is unreal in the Pony and I think he is holding about a 7:1 K/D in it right now. Pretty good for a bird some folks have been calling "paper mache'" with "weak guns".
END QUOTE.
Humph. Double Humph. Yes. I am 'aware'. I also have had some spectacular successes with the pony. So what? And I'm sure you know that K/D ratios like this are possible with any plane in the sim. IMHO His, mine or your K/D ratio, experience or skill with any AC type is simply just not relevant to the current topic of discussion.
Next: That 'snapshot' u used on HT. Was it a snapshot? Or a defection shot?
Try this. Lay a field of UNMOVING .50 cal fire in front of a target at or near convergence. Let the target fly thru that stream of fire. Do not deflect your nose to track the target and increase the time of fire on the target. A straight 'snapshot'.
9 out of 10 times; that target will survive.
I stipulate that 9 out of 10 times the target should be destroyed. Historical data backs that assertion.
Further; re: the paper tail on the P51. It exists here in AH. That is fact. You doubt it?
Fly it for 100 sorties in contact with the enemy. 'Contact'; translated as in recieving fire from the enemy. Record your losses of airframe cause. You'll find as I have that the overwhelming majority of air combat losses with the AH P51 are due to the loss of the vert fin. This in no way is representative of the historical record for the P51. (any model)
Finally; I am not 'knocking' the sim. I do hope this does not come off as a whine. I am not attacking you; the developer or anybody else here.. just putting things back in perspective.
I have observed these conditions present with this AC and have reported the situataion as I see it. I hope it will be fixed.
Hang (not blind; nor stupid)
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Bee,
Thanks for the link. Good reading!
In fact, should be required reading for anyone that is going to post on guns, pro or con (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hangtime, If you were to lay an unmoving field of fire in front of an aircraft crossing your path it is unlikely the target would be destroyed.
An aircraft flying at 300mph is traveling 440ft every second. The 6 .5inch guns on a Mustang will fire about 72 rounds a second.
A typical fighter about 30ft long will therefore recieve about 5 rounds, distributed along it's length. Not all of these will hit, as some will pass either to the side or above and below the fuselage. Even if all were to hit, you'd have to be pretty lucky for 5 0.5inch bullets to bring down a fighter, certainly not 90% of the time.
Just my humble opinion, and please correct me if I've got it wrong. I usually do.
[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 02-23-2000).]
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I get 5.73 rounds. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And yeah I think you'd have to be lucky to kill a real plane with that few bullets.
I recall that the Luftwaffe determined it took about six 20 mm hits on average to kill a fighter. Certainly you're going to need a lot more 50-cal rounds than 20mm rounds.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Hunh.
50 gazzillion posts I've read on gunnery..
Rate of fire on cannons.. when I fly the 1C I rarely miss a snaphot. Plane flys thru the stream.. 2-3 hits; planes dead.
Rate of fire on the six .50's.. when I fly the P51 I rarely kill with a snapshot. Plane flys thru the stream; 2-3 hits; plane is unfazed.
SHELL STREAM DENSITY ON MG'S UNDERMODELED!
I don't think the cannons are overmodeled; but gawdamn; the .50's are atrociously undermodeled in this situation. I've been told they were 'turned down' for 'play balance'. Time on target shots with the .50's seem fine; but no way they are right in a snapshot. And a P51; P38; F4U1D; and P47 are best flown to snapshot solutions.. not turning lag/lead situations.. these are B&Z planes that have had their B&Z armament gelded.
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o!
Sorry fer the rant.. It just bugs me no end that all those turn on a dime cannon wagons are about and the MG B&Z planes are the ones that get the 'play balance' adjustment.
Try to aim before the blaze (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Could help alot... I have no problem getting lotsa kills with 6x.50cal.
So, why would you have? possibility is that you don't aim enough well or you just blaze away somewhere, when using bursts would be more accurate.
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You guys are right in that it isn't right to use Vila's skill as a record to "prove" anything. I'm just trying to illustrate that there is no major problem with .50 cal lethality, or high-kill count sorties like that by anyone would just not be possible IMHO. My own record is more representative, since I have a reasonable number of sorties of the last 2 tours in both the 1D and 1C Hogs. I'm about even on them last time I checked as far as K/D goes. The real point here is that nobody is doing any concrete testing to prove one side or the other. My analogy may be flawed, but I haven't seen anybody else pull out any hard data on the topic. You guys keep quoting your experience, so I'm quoting mine. I fly the F4U-1D and I don't think there is a problem with the .50 cal lethality. Sure, snapshots are less likely to do critically damage an enemy plane, but if I make them in convergence range I find I can take them down some of the time. This is just what I expect to see.
Hangtime, the snapshot I used on HT WAS a snapshot. I was too slow to do anything else except hold my nose up and hose away as he flew through my bullet stream. I guess the only mitigating circumstance would be that we were both very slow, so he passed through the bullet stream at low speed.
In regards to the paper tail on the Pony, I don't have enough experience to make a comparison. Bottom line, why don't you keep the records you suggested and post your findings? Pyro has modelled it as best he can, and the only way you'll change his mind is to gather up some data.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Cave - That F-86 kill was done with the M3 .50 cal, not the M2. The M3 had a cyclic rate of 1200 rpm. This is way more than the 750 rpm of the M2, and obviously makes it a much more dangerous weapon at all ranges.
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be that as it may funked (and I'm not doubting you =), they both use the same round, yes? If so, it would just take a longer squeeze of the trigger to put out the same number of rounds and get the kill at that range.
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LOL... 5 rounds.. LOL.
I disagree. I'll check my data tonight and have another look at the situation; but frankly; 6 hammerin .50's will put a LOT more rounds on target.. the effect would be akin to a hot wire slicing thru foam block.
Decimating.
Hristo.. c'mon. My gunnery averages bely yer statement. why the personal attack? yer fargin precious LW stuff might get ruffed up by an accurate MG model? Sheesh.
Hang
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>Hristo.. c'mon.
I think you meant Fishu.
And pleeeeze Pyro, don't give Hang better guns. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wab
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Fishu and Hristo are not the same person, if someone has any doubts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hmm, this happened for second time in last few weeks, hmmm....
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you guys do sorta sound alike...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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was flying the D Hog today because i was curious (beacuse of this thread) .. i found it pretty lethal actually my K/D or K/sortie ratio is practically identical to the F4U 1C .. i'm not the very best shot and still managed quite a few kills...
There were just 2 or 3 incinedts where i'd have had a kill with the C hog and did only get a few hit sprites with the D.
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(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Cave,
"it would just take a longer squeeze of the trigger to put out the same number of rounds and get the kill at that range."
I'm not sure it works that way. You're assuming he was on target for the entire burst. If he was only on target for part of the burst, using a higher ROF gun would help I think. He's still a stud for making that shot though!
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Hristo.. WHUPS! My most sincere apologies.
Dammo.. my alligator mouth overloading my parakeet eyesight once again.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Again, sorry; sir.
Hang
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Hangtime, the 5 or 6 rounds calculation is correct for the specified rates of fire (750 rpm, 6 guns), target velocity (300 mph)and length (35 ft) with a 90 degree deflection angle.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by funked:
I'm not sure it works that way. You're assuming he was on target for the entire burst. If he was only on target for part of the burst, using a higher ROF gun would help I think. He's still a stud for making that shot though!
You have a point there, but the point I'm getting at is the .50s ARE lethal at 1600yds. And I can't remember our .50s in AH ever being that lethal, even when shooting at a non-manuvering bandit who was spraying&praying behind my buff at low 6.
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Funked...
I hang my head.. I can find no fault with the math. In fact; If I'm not mistaken; the .50's on the P51 were at about 550 rounds per min.. less than what we're workin with I think.
Conversly; with the same math model, that damn plane should fly thru the zone of a cannon eguipped F4u and recieve no hits at all. Hunh.
Having seen the destructive power of the M2 in action first hand; I have a very healthy respect for the destructive power of the weapon. At 1200 yards we could chew up what ever we pointed it at. Basicly; if we could see it with the naked eye; we could kill it.
Awsome gun.. truly. Must be seen to be belived I guess. This is by no means a feeble gun system.
Gun camera footage from WWII also clearly shows devestating results for any A/C that crossed the convergence zone of six .50's..
The statement " ..a second was more than enough" is no exaggeration.
Now as to range.. definitly; we are seeing a reduced range model.. reports of accurate cyclic fire at 1200 to 1800 yards is not at all uncommon. To the best of my memory, these range figures are also stated in the FM's for the M2's of that era as well as mine.
So; math be damned; I'm stickin to my guns here.. the .50's in the sim are undermodeled IMHO.
Hang
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Using the same figures as above an F4U-1C would get 2-3 hits on a crossing plane. More likely to get a kill than 5 .05 rounds nut still not that likely, IMHO.
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Sorry if this shows up several times but something is going wrong when I try to post.
Using the same figures as above an F4U-1C would get 2-3 hits on a crossing plane. More likely to get a kill than 5 .05 rounds but still not that likely, IMHO.
If the plane is crossing in front of you, ie a classic snapshot, then giving a longer burst will not help as the target is within your field of fire for a limited time. Having a higher ROF would put more rounds on target however.
AFAIK the ROF on the .5 M2 was 720rpm and for the Hispano 20mm 650rpm.
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GMan- Actually I have fired an automatic 20mm from a pedestal mount on a couple of occasions. Not that I garnered any special insight, but it certainly is more impressive in person than in a book or on tv. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Feel free to send me anything you think would be helpful. In this particular case, I do have ballistic and armor penetration tables for the 1944 M2 50 Cal. I don't have the figures handy, but it won't even come close to penetrating 1 inch at 1600 yards. At 1000 yards I believe it will penetrate around a 1/4 inch at 0 degrees.
Hang- sometimes you'll see figures that put the M2's rate of fire down in the 500-650 RPM range. This is correct for the standard heavy barreled M2 but not for the aircraft version.
Here's a quick and abridged obscure history lesson for those interested in this kind of stuff...
In 1939 the Air Corps drafted a requirement for a weapon citing characteristics that the .50 was capable of meeting but with a rate of fire of at least 1000 rpm. The M2 could only do 500-600 rpm depending on the mount. Colt spent a couple years working on a design, but had severe problems and nothing came of it.
Meanwhile, in 1940, the Springfield Armory lightened components of the M2 and added double driving springs in place of a single spring. This increased the rate of fire up to 800 rpm. It didn't meet the initial requirement, but it was still a good improvement. The downside to this was greatly increased barrel erosion. In early 42, the National Defense Research Committee went to work to find a way to reduce barrel erosion. After two and a half years of research, they came up with a special alloy to line the barrel with.
Meanwhile still, the High Standard company was working on increasing the M2's rate of fire even more, but had to keep the changes to a minimum. They made some promising innovations but could not meet test requirements. So in 1943, the Ordnance Dept gave up on the idea of having the new design keep interchangable parts with the M2, but they still wanted the same basic mechanism to be used. Frigidaire started working on this project and had a successful model by the autumn of 44. This model had a lot of redesign and advancements, a couple taken from High Standard's earlier work. Rate of fire was increased to 1200 rpm and it was ordered into production as the M3. However, only 2400 were completed before the end of the war.
The Ordnance Dept found that they could also incorporate some of the improvements of the M3 into the M2. These improvements would boost the rate of fire to just over 900 rpm. Only 8000 were produced- a quarter of the initial order, due to the M3 production progressing quickly.
BTW, I have a Frigidaire refrigerator and both the icemaker and water dispenser could really use a faster rate as well.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."
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Pyro said:
"BTW, I have a Frigidaire refrigerator and both the icemaker and water dispenser could really use a faster rate as well."
ROFL!
Seriously, I bet the refrigerator engineers had a bunch of fun tinkering with the guns!
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Hey Pyro, thanks for your remarks. I have a photo to post for you of a somali pickup which i personally(told you i had hands on experience) chewed to living hell, range was in the vicinty of 1400m and penetrated both sides of the engine block = 4cyl inline. Model was M2/1980, with linked ap/tracer at ratio of 1 to 5. I will send ya this pic when i scan it... some of you might find it as of interest as well. I haven't said much about it... cuz it wasn't very fun. Picture to come. Love my Ma Deuce.
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
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Funny, found this on Combatsim
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm (http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm)
-Ding
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Did those AP happen to have a DU core by any chance...?
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No Juzz. D.U. isn't used in .50 cal ammo.
Not that i've seen anyway... some super duper trooper somewhere may have some, but to the best of my knowledge.. .50 cal D.U. is not in the U.S. inventory.
All an AP round is: copper jacketed(so it doesnt score the barrel) steel penetrator.
As we all know.. steel holds its form better than lead...
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So Funked... you ever hit the Air Zoo in K'zoo?
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I have snake-eyes, i'm from south haven, went 6 years in a row... way back.
High On Kalamazoooooooooooooooooooooo oo
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
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Cool biz... I was there back in '91 (I think it was 91) when they had the first appearance of the Mig29 in the continental US.
Graduated from K' Colludge in '92.
Nice town... nice airplanes. Dumbshit me never visited the airzoo while in college. Didn't really realize how cool it was or know about their Sunday flights.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by juzz:
Did those AP happen to have a DU core by any chance...?
I have an interesting, but dumb, idea. For my idea to work you would have to use Non-Depleted Uranium. I believe that "Highly Enriched Uranium-235" might be suitable.
Picture two planes going HO, and the bullets shot from each plane colliding in mid air. Imagine the surprize, when that "WAD" of Uranium reaches a critical mass. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
After destoying every plane in the entire arena, someones K/D ratio might go up. Depends on how the "SYSTEM" scores it though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mino
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What's this? Air Zoo? Pls elaborate.
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Funk,
It's a museum that actually flies their planes in Kalamazoo.
Like most warbird outfits, it has some really, really fine people in it. Like most warbird outfits it also has a very few guys that think they are too special to talk to mere mortals. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Overall, it's a real class act with some good stuff.
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The Kalamazoo Air Zoo, hosts an airshow every year, called "High on Kalamazoo". My hometown is about 30 min away.. went every year until i went active duty military. I especially like thier flight simulators... awesome, full real cockpits of reconstructed surplus aircraft... costs a pretty penny, but very much worth it.
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
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Where's Kalamazoo?
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Ok Funked, you funkin' with us, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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http://www.airzoo.org/ (http://www.airzoo.org/)
Thats the Kalamazoo Air Zoo. That's where the flight of the Grumman Cats was held every year. Having a Wildcat, Hellcat, Bearcat, Tigercat (personal fav), and Tomcat flyover you very low in formation is an awesome sight and an even more awesome sound! Then watching the Tomcat go vertical in the missing man formation is incredible. If you ever get a chance to see the Flight of the Grumman Cats (I believe they have done this at Oshkosh since I first saw them do that in Kalamazoo about 12 years ago) check it out, you'll love it!
BTW, if you just love watching Warbirds fly, I believe the weekend before Oshkosh, Warbird pilots gather at Kalamazoo to get their Warbird Airshow ratings renewed, so you can see them putting the birds we like to fly online through their paces. I believe there is something about that at the website. Check it out.
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-26-2000).]
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be very carful reducing firepower effectiveness (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
WB is in choas due to their "improved" damage model and ineffective cannons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
cannons werk great as they should (ie: better than 50 cal when they hit) yet now the polar opposite of WB is in AH where the .50 crowd cries foul.
seems to me both the 50 and the 20mm are dead on.
however 30mm is still too ineffective (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yup, seein all those "Cats" together was quite a sight... not to mention the Tomcat goes verticle right over the crowd... justa' bout lost my bladder, shook me st-st-st-stupid!
[This message has been edited by SC-GManMP (edited 02-26-2000).]
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Last I knew, the Bearcat was undergoing repairs for a forced landing.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Yeah, the Air Zoo is very cool. Well worth the trip.
popeye
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AWWW wish I had a bearcat in AH. 4 20mm cannons, HP out the blowhole! and untouchable about 10k.
and the trip was only 30 minutes for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by SC-GManMP (edited 02-26-2000).]
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Seriously, I have no idea where Kalamazoo is. I've heard the name before though. Sounds like a cool museum though! If it's near Illinois I'm goin'!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-26-2000).]
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You don't get outta the house much, eh?
Kalamazoo, MI, is about 3 hours from Chicago, right off of I-94.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Thanks! I will have to go there. And yeah, as a Californian born in Ohio I know the West and Ohio but very little about Chicagoland or Michigan. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously, if you wanna go there sometime, let me know. I love a good road trip.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-29-2000).]
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Holy toejam - this weekend is "Open Cockpit Weekend". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmm I got gas in the car. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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heheh lucky you.. i'm so far away from home right now, i'd have to strap myself to an ICBM to get there in time... enjoy.
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Here you can read a good article about
Mk108 monster cannon.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/pauke.html (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/pauke.html)
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Hehe, old thread, but contains some good info (Back when Rip was in JG2, Duck flew 'the Chog exclusively'...and Verm was wishing for an LA-7. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I take credit for convincing Duck to fly the D Hog. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I think I created a monster. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Moving back to Holland MI in 6 weeks, and yes the air zoo has some great planes to check out. I will be heading there again as soon as I get up there.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
"The soup nazi"
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Here you can read a good article about
Mk108 monster cannon.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/pauke.html (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/pauke.html)
Yes, a good article, except that the MK 108 wasn't in service in 1942. 1944 was more like it.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm)
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And currently the Hog d is about 1 to 1...
while the Hog C is 1.5 to 1.
allot better then 1 to 3 and 2 to 1 respectivly.
Edit.
Hey I am 10 to 3 in the Hog D!...One was a carrier take off death, one was a landing death..
and 3 to 3 in the Hog C..
I guess I just dont take it seriosly
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 04-17-2001).]
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
LOL... 5 rounds.. LOL.
...6 hammerin .50's will put a LOT more rounds on target.. the effect would be akin to a hot wire slicing thru foam block.
Decimating.
Hristo.. c'mon. My gunnery averages bely yer statement. why the personal attack? yer fargin precious LW stuff might get ruffed up by an accurate MG model? Sheesh.
Hang
I've known Hangdoobie quite some time, and I'm confident HIS gunnery isn't in question. Not saying this because he's my friend, (the guy absolutely hates me fer stealing his sheep), I'm saying because I have flown against and with him, both here and in Warpburps.
No I haven't fired the .50 in quite some time either, but Hangdoobie is on the right track, imho. As are others that provide data and proof of what the .50 cal can do.
Vila is a poor example to compare against, since he is stellar to my earthworm, but then I've known Vila under different names near as long as Hangtime. Give Vila a BB gun and a kite and he'll figure out how to shoot down a buff, or fighter inside of a week. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've gotten some good damage in deflection shots... Hellashish HO damage... Moderate trailing damage... and NO snapshot damage... with the .50's. Is something wrong with my aim? You'd have to ask the folks I fly against.
Now, to show I am not "pro Hangtime"... Me thinks the buzzsaw yer Yaking about is the one on the P-38. Yes, olde Maw Deuce has a good ROF, and Yes you'd likey break all kinds of things in that shot, and YES there'd be more than 5 half inch rounds passing completely THROUGH the target... But I don't think penetration/colateral(sp?) damage is that accurately modeled here. So the other guys win this argument.
Now Hangdoobie, put away the crystal ball and let's commence to fightin' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW - If I am wrong I admit it. So if the damage model is better than I've found, and been told.... I apollogise in advance.
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Tern
"There I was at 50 feet inverted. 120 knots, and the only thing running was the radio..."