Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hristo on July 07, 2000, 01:33:00 AM
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Luftwaffe planes in AH:
Bf 109F-4 (1941)
Slow, decent turner, weak guns, poor durability. Can run away only from TnBers.
Usually meat for gangbangers.
Bf 109G-2 (1942)
Better than F-4, but still very similar.
Meat for gangbangers.
Me 109G-6 (1942)
Most things worse than G-2, better guns though, but still weak. Many planes will outperform you in most apsects. Watch out for gangbangs.
Me 109G-10 (1944)
With FM tweaks it is not what it used to be. Once competent, now it is pretty hard to stay alive in this one. The plane can't handle its own engine power (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Still, it can make some great escapes. All US planes except P-38L will catch you in dive, however.
Fw 190A-5 (1943)
Nice allround plane, but not best in anything (except roll). Too slow for 1944 monsters, Often gets ganbanged or outrun by late war splanes. Very fun to fly, but it might leave you frustrated if you get to fight many P 51Ds or P 47s. All US planes catch you in dive (not sure about P 38L).
Fw 190A-8 (1944)
Requires very careful flying, almost opportunistic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Not a turner, very poor E-fighting potential, not much to do when on defense. Still, can run from mid war planes.
All US planes catch you in dive, except P-38L.
US planes Luftwaffe faces:
F4U-1D (1943)
If you see it, take a screenshot - this is a rare sighting. It can dive away from any Luftwaffe plane.
F4U-1C (1943 ?)
Chosen by unknown criteria, this plane entered the AH planeset and caused...you know it already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Can dive away from any Luftwaffe plane.
P-38L (1944)
Cool plane, able to give any Luftwaffe plane a hard time, unless its pilot makes a mistake and goes to scissor A-5 or something like that. Unbeatable at extremely high altitudes. Fastest Luftwaffe divers can catch it.
P-47D (1944)
Mr. Snapshot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It can surprise some planes by sometimes incredible TnB performance. Able to outdive any Luftwaffe plane.
P-51D (1944)
Excellent plane for staying alive. Firepower seems to have recieved a boost in latest revision, so no more assists. Able to outdive any Luftwaffe plane.
Appologies to VVS, RAF and IJA/IJN types. This post deals with LW vs US only.
Luftwaffe has only 2 1944 planes, and even they have "...but..." attached to them. Either is is a buff hunter or an old airframe brought to 1944 standards.
Luftwaffe needs a competent 1944 plane. Able to dive with US iron and fight them on their own terms. Not a "1944 plane", but a real one. Something able to dive with opportunists and catch them on the deck. Something historical. D-9 and 262.
Thank you
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D-9 is an obvious choice, and I'm certain we'll see it.
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Yes, give us a D-9. Soon.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Me 109G-6 (1942)
Most things worse than G-2, better guns though, but still weak. Many planes will outperform you in most apsects. Watch out for gangbangs.
Fw 190A-5 (1943)
Nice allround plane, but not best in anything (except roll). Too slow for 1944 monsters, Often gets ganbanged or outrun by late war splanes. Very fun to fly, but it might leave you frustrated if you get to fight many P 51Ds or P 47s. All US planes catch you in dive (not sure about P 38L).
I think the G6 is greatly under-estimated preformence wise. A G10 it ain't but I still find it very fast through all altitudes and gladly trade the G10's power for a more stable gun platform (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Methink's it's greatest asset is people thinking it's a G10.
Only real problem planes are Wulfs, G10, Yak, and the 51. It's pretty much even with the rest of the US planes.
I don't fly the A5 but it sure scares me some times. Always getting gangbanged by them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'd really like to see the D-9 but given the popularity of the A5, I wonder how many people would trade the A5's manuverability for the D-9's speed. I guess the fewer the better tho, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
- Jig
- Jig
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"Everyone other than the USAAF" bombers in AH:
Yeah, right. Like any other country flew bombers during WW2! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Fw 190D-9
La-7
Tempest Mk V
All released together would be ideal.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Bf 109G-2 (1942)
Meat for gangbangers.
I disagree! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'd like to see the Dora also.
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Great.. let's look at UK planeset:
Spitfire 5 - one of the two worst planes in AH. Slow, doesn't climb, doesn't dive and doesn't roll. Only C202 can be precieved as worst ...
Spitfire 9 F - 1942 plane. Wholly inadiquate in 1945 standards of AH.
Too slow. Almost everything can run away from it.
Including Niki...
Typhoon - it's fast when you run ... and .... it's fast when you run...
It sucks above 15k and can't climb for toejam... and it's fast when you run...
Good gun thou..
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Here you have it. Highly competetive planeset for RAF in AH.
Now, where is my Spitfire 14 ???
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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I agree with ya FD, RAF is lacking. I just think the spit 14 is too good. I fear it may become Spits High if its released, maybe the perk system would help dunno. She is a beauty and could wreak some major damage.
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Dnil
JG-2
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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RAF is lacking, I agree. In fact, everything else except US planeset is lacking.
RAF types, how about joined efforts to bring in Spit XIV and Dora ?
I will do it first:
Bring Spit XIV to AH !
Bring Dora to AH !
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I'm surprised that the P38L won't catch a 109 in a dive...
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Correct me if I am wrong, but, in the 'L' model P38, didn't they just 'prevent' compression by adding the air brake, thus not allowing the pilot to compress? Or did the L model actually allow the P38 driver to indeed go faster in a dive?
Seems to me that the 109's best dfense from swarming allied fighters was to dive away, and they were successful in doing so many times in books I've read.
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In AH the P-38L compresses at about Mach 0.7 or even lower. The dive flaps just let you pull out of compressed dives, which means you can go faster, I guess. You start loosing bits eventually, once IAS builds too much though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The Me 109 will go to Mach 0.8 or so before it locks up. Of course most of the time the stick is solid long before then anyway because it's flying over 400mph IAS.
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Hristo add La-7 and Ki-84 to that list. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Let's all join hands!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lets all have a group hug, Funky Munky!
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EH-OHHHHH! BIG HUG!
(http://teletinky.tripod.com/tinkyanim1.gif)
Tinky Winky has something in his bag for you!
[This message has been edited by TinkyWinky (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Originally posted by Dnil:
I agree with ya FD, RAF is lacking. I just think the spit 14 is too good. (...) She is a beauty and could wreak some major damage.
Being too good should have nothing to do with it. It's a 1944 RAF plane. Period.
Besides, I don't really get it. Many seem to think the Spit14 would kick any plane's ass, even with the worst pilot. I strongly doubt it.
If it's modeled right, I think it would be very difficult to handle, would not turn well, and wouldn't even be the fastest plane in the game. It would have a great tendency to flip in a tight turn, and I doubt people would choose it as the all-around fighter.
I don't have any data, I'm just a player, but if I judge from the release of the Spit14 in WB, the Spit14 would not be the uberplane everyone is afraid of. (HT and Pyro were the ones responsible for its modeling in WB, right?)
I don't mind seeing a FW190D-9, but it should be introduced with the Spitfire Mark XIV.
I wouldn't mind a KI-84 too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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DrSoya
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF [AH]
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF [WB]
Part of the Northolt Wing (http://www.raf303.org/northolt) (First Polish Fighter Wing)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Correct me if I am wrong, but, in the 'L' model P38, didn't they just 'prevent' compression by adding the air brake, thus not allowing the pilot to compress? Or did the L model actually allow the P38 driver to indeed go faster in a dive?
Seems to me that the 109's best dfense from swarming allied fighters was to dive away, and they were successful in doing so many times in books I've read.
They started with the P-38J fixing compression by adding a dive flap that re-routed the air flow over the elevator making it more effective. In previous versions, tail buffet and extreme sluggishness in were expirenced over (I think) 375 MPH.
Once the dive flap was installed, besides stabalizing and adding control while diving, it pushed the nose up 10-20 degrees upon being engaged. The tail buffet was fixed by adding fillets to the tail, I think. The Fowler flaps also cause nose pitch changes upon engagment and retraction, neither of which I have seen yet.
At the least it should have good dive acceleration, below it's mach number. It's combined weight and level acceleration would at least suggest this.
AH seems to have some strange quirks with the 38L's flight model, which I guess could very well be how the real one behaved, but I've noticed sometimes it "torques" and it's departure characteristic are very strange. I do know that once it has fully left flight it could be a hand full because of the counter-rotating gyro-like engines and the tendency to go into flat spins, but departure comes without much warning and it "torques" over sometimes much like an F4U does when stalling.
- Jig
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I've found the P-38 in AH to stall as flat as a pancake. But, eventually, it does drop a wing - and then it spins pretty fast. But recovery is easy, unless you just let it keep going.
You can do some really controlled "snap rolls" in the P-38. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'd like to see Ta-152H for luftwaffe.
It was as rare as F4U-C or N1K2.
(Or how about He-162, over 200 pieces made)
Fw190D-9 is too used and it would anyway be a rock to fly, so why not to get some D12/D13/T152 to have some benefit of the rock (read benefit as in speed).
Oh, by the way Hristo, Pirado is still alive and wants to send greets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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D-12 and D-13 were prototypes only AFAIK. Just go with Ta 152H - we KNOW that was produced.
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Fishu, not true on the "rarity" of the Ta-152H.
I did a big writeup on the production Ta-152's a while back, but in short.
2 Ta-152C's
46 Ta-152H's (most if not all were H0's) ie No GM1/MW50.
200 F4U-1C's.
458 N1K2's.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I'd love to see some more wooden british wonders...
Right in my gunsights that is!
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As for "speed benefit" - the D-12, D-13 and Ta-152H are SLOWER than the D-9 until you get to 20,000ft or more.
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Our poor Drsoya is misjudging what we have in WB as Spitfire 14 for something correct.
Couldn't be further from the truth.
Spitfire 14 in WB has some serious problems.
Personally i think it had its nuts cut for "playblance" sake.
While it had some torque issues in reality, they surely weren't as bad as what we have in warbirds. That plane can't even roll to the left, at any speed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mustang will outmanouver it in most cases, and 109k can have pretty good turnfight with spit 14 in WB. ( i know, i've done it, in 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
That's surely not a correct representation
Read the Bombscoe report :
"Turning Circle- The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire Mk XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord. The warning of an approaching high
speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV. "
And overall evaluation:
"Conclusions- All-round performance of the Mk XIV is better than the Mk IX at all heights. In level flight it is 25-35 mph faster and has a correspondingly greater rate of climb. Its
manoeuvrability is as good as a Mik IX. It is easy to fly but should be handled with care when taxying and taking off. "
From : http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14pt.html (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14pt.html)
Spitfire 14 in WB can be only conisdere correct if it has 2 500lb bombs attached and cliped wings missing from the artwork (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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check out the numbers on this puppy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit8.html (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit8.html)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Fd ski.
That would be the worst thing that could be done in my opinion. Put a plane in the game that looks like a spit XIV but does not perform like it.
I have never read anything bad about the handling of the spit XIV, they added the bigger tail to the later marks for some reason...but the pilots seemed to love the XIV.
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Originally posted by DrSoya:
Being too good should have nothing to do with it. It's a 1944 RAF plane. Period.
It has everything to do with it. Where people got the impression that the XIV is some uncontrolable monster is beyond me. If introduced right now it would be the fastest best climbing best diving nearly hardest hitting nearly best turning poor rolling aircraft in the game.
Spit Vb is not nearly so bad as made out in some of these postes either. And saying the SpitIX is useless is silly.
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I believe the LW should get another couple of planes including a 262. But I think the problem with the LW lies in the fact that the great demented mind of Hitler killed the LW in the late stages of the war. By imposing restrictions that held the idea that planes should be able to be multi-roll really hurt. The LW started with a huge advantage and an early war plane set will really show this. But by the end of the war the allies, especially the US and Russia had the advantage. Nearly unlimited resources, the man/woman power to pump out the numbers. And the idea of playing catchup caused the allies to design and keep designing for faster better planes. By the closing stages of the war the allies had much better planes in the air.
If Hitler had let the designers build planes for fighting and planes for bombing then the LW would have been a much deadlier opponant and the war would have gone on longer. There is no doubt in my mind that the German designers had the best ideas and frames that could be designed but command staff wouldn't listen.
I think that when we start seeing perk planes that you will have some of the few models made LW iron to play in. I don't think some of the prototypes should be allowed to fly all the time in the arena as it would make it unflyable for anyone but LW types (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think that when the early war planes are modeled that the LW will shine strongly against just about anything the allies can throw in the air.
I am just rambling a bunch here more than anything but trying to get this out for ppl to think about. The LW had at one time the best airforce around but Hitler in is wisdom couldn't see the advantage in that late in the war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
S!
Rocket
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It was there. No argue about that.
Model it, along with the Dora.
Thanks
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And Hristo for the D9 we really have to push for the red panties (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I would spend a tour with that for a main ride <with the exception of squad meetings> if it had the red and white underbelly ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
S!
Rocket
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I assume that all LW pilots who are against introducing the spit 14 are even more veamently opposed to introducing the 262 ?
Am i right ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 07-09-2000).]
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Originally posted by jmccaul:
I assume that all LW pilots who are against introducing the spit 14 are even more veamently opposed to introducing the 262 ?
Am i right ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 07-09-2000).]
mmmmm.
mmmmm.
thats not fair...
But you are right. Both would have to be perk planes definatly.
and vis versa spit XIV boosters accept the 262 as it was operational at the same time and was more signifigant in service...
I have reservations about the 190D9 being a perk plane but I might underestimate its capabilities.
I would still rather have an MB5 than either 262 or spit 14
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"vis versa spit XIV boosters accept the 262 as it was operational at the same time and was more signifigant in service"
That's silly Pongo, XIV was in squadron service 1/44, but JV 44 wasn't active until the summer, and with only 2 or 3 planes operational at once.
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If the Spit XIV outdives and outruns the Dora on the deck, perk it. Otherwise, leave it available to anyone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously, I don't think either Dora or Spit XIV should be perked. Nor 262, for that matter.
Perk planes, IMO:
Ta 152, He 162, Do 335, Meteor, P 51H etc.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
If the Spit XIV outdives and outruns the Dora on the deck, perk it. Otherwise, leave it available to anyone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously, I don't think either Dora or Spit XIV should be perked. Nor 262, for that matter.
Perk planes, IMO:
Ta 152, He 162, Do 335, Meteor, P 51H etc.
Heyy.. thats mean, not my Ta152, He162 or Do335!
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At the risk of wasting my time, a simple question, please without all the jingoistic hype this time.
Ahem, why does everyone assume that this plane or that plane is some "uber" (stupid freaking word) ride? a handsomehunk in a zeke is different from a handsomehunk in a spit XIV in what way? does the plane choose it's own engagements? does it refuse to perform outside it's envelope? In other words, If I get on it's 6, can it magically get away unscathed (note; I said no hype) I would rather wait and see what planes HTC decides to do, instead of this frivolous verbal sparring between a few fanatics who aren't making the damn game, and so really do not make the choice of what plane is going to be in or out. I hope you all get the plane you want, and You think it's modelled right (highly unlikely with this crowd) you know why? 'cause you're still gonna get shot down, somewhere sometime (trust me, if I can bring down Torque, anything can happen)
Now let us lay the great big smelly "my dad can beat up your dad" preschool kind of squeak session back in it's grave.
Or rename this board AGW2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Hristo, IMO:
1 - Actually Luftwaffe planes (any year) in AH are facing US planes that hit and kill at 1000 yards.
2 - US planes (any year) are facing Luftwaffe planes that hit and kill at 400 yards (in my case at 300 or 500 for buffs).
Give me 4 Mk103...
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Originally posted by funked:
"vis versa spit XIV boosters accept the 262 as it was operational at the same time and was more signifigant in service"
That's silly Pongo, XIV was in squadron service 1/44, but JV 44 wasn't active until the summer, and with only 2 or 3 planes operational at once.
Silly...
pretty strong words funked.
Where the Spit XIVs doing anything but landing patterns befor the V1s showed up? Which was end of June right..
In a 6 year war that is near enough contemporary for me.
And in Aces High land they would all have been operational...no reliability issues.
:O
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Silly...
pretty strong words funked.
Where the Spit XIVs doing anything but landing patterns befor the V1s showed up? Which was end of June right..
In a 6 year war that is near enough contemporary for me.
And in Aces High land they would all have been operational...no reliability issues.
:O
Pongo,
You are now flying German planes with no realibility issues whatsoever. I think it was JG26 book, where I read that many latewar German planes were rather dangerous to fly because of poor manufacturing. So before you scream anything else, think if you want your BF109G10 quit on you every other mission.
mx22
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Originally posted by pzvg:
At the risk of wasting my time, a simple question, please without all the jingoistic hype this time.
Ahem, why does everyone assume that this plane or that plane is some "uber" (stupid freaking word) ride? a handsomehunk in a zeke is different from a handsomehunk in a spit XIV in what way? does the plane choose it's own engagements? does it refuse to perform outside it's envelope? In other words, If I get on it's 6, can it magically get away unscathed (note; I said no hype) I would rather wait and see what planes HTC decides to do, instead of this frivolous verbal sparring between a few fanatics who aren't making the damn game, and so really do not make the choice of what plane is going to be in or out. I hope you all get the plane you want, and You think it's modelled right (highly unlikely with this crowd) you know why? 'cause you're still gonna get shot down, somewhere sometime (trust me, if I can bring down Torque, anything can happen)
Now let us lay the great big smelly "my dad can beat up your dad" preschool kind of squeak session back in it's grave.
Or rename this board AGW2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
What did you want discussed on the Aces High bullitin board...BBQ cooking tips?
Look at your name sake. Who would take any other tank if the Panther G was freely available. masochists? It is mostly imune to the fire of any of them yet can destroy any of them at 3K plus...
And in Aces high shots like that are available all the time. But it is obviosly historically one of two primary mid 44 German tanks.So should it be in the game? Without limitations?
The Spit XIV seems like it would be a Spit IX with the climb and top speed of a 109G10.
Its level deck speed could be boosted to 400mph
It doesnt have an imunity to fire like the Panther but you gotta see that many other planes would be rare if it was always available in the hanger.
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Where the Spit XIVs doing anything but landing patterns befor the V1s showed up? Which was end of June right..
Pongo, are you being deliberately insulting?The history of 322 (Dutch) squadron website at http://user.online.be/ragas/airwar/322operations.html (http://user.online.be/ragas/airwar/322operations.html)
shows that 322 sqd recieved Spit 14s on 10.3.44 (10 March to Americans). They reequiped with Spit IXs in Aug 44. The operations log shows the following entries
Month Flights Op Flying hours
March 44 30 37 escorte and patrols
April 44 108 105 scrambles and defence patrols
May 44 517 649 scrambles, defence patrols and fighter sweeps
June 44 691 851 defence patrols and anti-diver patrols
July 44 1030 1137 anti-diver patrols
Aug. 44 580 881 anti-diver patrols and escort
Looks like more than landing patterns to me. ^10 sqd equiped with Spit XIVs in Jan, so their "Landing patterns" would have started earlier.
Contrary to what you seem to want to believe, the RAF flew and fought actively over Europe for the first half of 44 as well as the second. They didn't simply sit around waiting for the V-1s to arrive.
[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 07-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Hristo, IMO:
1 - Actually Luftwaffe planes (any year) in AH are facing US planes that hit and kill at 1000 yards.
2 - US planes (any year) are facing Luftwaffe planes that hit and kill at 400 yards (in my case at 300 or 500 for buffs).
Give me 4 Mk103...
I would not blame the guns, they are correct IMO.
It is the ICONS which make that possible. Dump them and see what happens.
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Why should the meteor be perk plane? It became operational just after the 262 and more wartime examples were produced than the F4U-1C.
Also i don't think you should base impact on purley number produced because surley attrition will effect how many see service. Looking at the number of sorties flown would be more reliable, no ?
i.e. 1 pilot may fly 10 sorties in 3 planes while one pilot may fly 50 sorties in one.
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Meteor should be perked. Like in real life. They were there, but never fought other planes.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Meteor should be perked. Like in real life. They were there, but never fought other planes.
And the only fights the 262 made were getting enough seperation clob the throttles and streak out of sight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Eh but really looking at it, the 262 doesn't have enough good points to perk it. Horrible level acceleration, toughness that makes a Betty seem durable, high fuel burn rate and the need for a ridiculously long runway to take off and land. Then there's the red out/ black out issues, gun jamming, and turning ability.
Anyone that gets suckered into a dog fight with a prop fighter will more then likely die. Only real thing it's got going for it are speed, guns, zoom, ability, and altitude preformence.
Okay with perking the Meteor, and the P-51H, but I'd rather see a P-51K and P-51B first.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Anyone that gets suckered into a dog fight with a prop fighter will more then likely die. Only real thing it's got going for it are speed, guns, zoom, ability, and altitude preformence.
Which happen to be the most important plane qualities for the arena.
Originally posted by Jigster:
And the only fights the 262 made were getting enough seperation clob the throttles and streak out of sight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
I want it, I want it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I want to fly the most beautiful WW2 plane.
I want to make 1 ping kills on cannon Hogs.
I want to outdive the damn P 47s.
I want the enemies to shed wings while diving with me.
I want the best all around visibility in a plane.
I want to down buffs quicker than C-Hog.
I want to extend farther than GFish.
I want to turn less than Ypsilon.
I want to dive into the merge faster than Hangtime (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I want to HO more than GTR.
And most of all, I want the open channel to look something like: "...run, cowardly 262, run..."
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-10-2000).]
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I really enjoy you LW types.
It is good to have bad guys to kill!
Cyas!
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by mx22:
Pongo,
You are now flying German planes with no realibility issues whatsoever. I think it was JG26 book, where I read that many latewar German planes were rather dangerous to fly because of poor manufacturing. So before you scream anything else, think if you want your BF109G10 quit on you every other mission.
mx22
Of course you are right MX. The Axis would be hardest hit by reliability issues. But I was replying to Funkeds 262 count wich was low only because of reliability issues. Which would not apply here. I was not very serios....
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
Where the Spit XIVs doing anything but landing patterns befor the V1s showed up? Which was end of June right..
Pongo, are you being deliberately insulting?The history of 322 (Dutch) squadron website at http://user.online.be/ragas/airwar/322operations.html (http://user.online.be/ragas/airwar/322operations.html)
shows that 322 sqd recieved Spit 14s on 10.3.44 (10 March to Americans). They reequiped with Spit IXs in Aug 44. The operations log shows the following entries
Month Flights Op Flying hours
March 44 30 37 escorte and patrols
April 44 108 105 scrambles and defence patrols
May 44 517 649 scrambles, defence patrols and fighter sweeps
June 44 691 851 defence patrols and anti-diver patrols
July 44 1030 1137 anti-diver patrols
Aug. 44 580 881 anti-diver patrols and escort
Looks like more than landing patterns to me. ^10 sqd equiped with Spit XIVs in Jan, so their "Landing patterns" would have started earlier.
Contrary to what you seem to want to believe, the RAF flew and fought actively over Europe for the first half of 44 as well as the second. They didn't simply sit around waiting for the V-1s to arrive.
[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 07-10-2000).][/b]
No I was being deliberatley silly...
BTW doesnt say how many they lost to V1s..
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OK then the LW should get dora, 262, Ta 152 etc. but no fuel and poor reliability.
The allies will in return get huge numerical superiority and control of the skys. Leading to a massive vulch fest.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 07-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
I want to make 1 ping kills on cannon Hogs.
Surelly you will need a long burst ...
I want to HO more than GTR.
Impossible (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And I bet you those 103 or 108 will be sincrhonized with engine fans porking the ROF (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by jmccaul:
OK then the LW should get dora, 262, Ta 152 etc. but no fuel and poor reliability.
The allies will in return get huge numerical superiority and control of the skys. Leading to a massive vulch fest.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 07-10-2000).]
However, do not forget to model various degrees of experience. Luftwaffe pilots will be allowed to fly the sim for years (Spanish experience even), while opportunists make 1 tour and are rotated back home.
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Hmmmm so are the Allies gonna get planes right up to the time we nuked Japan?Muhahahahahahahaha! Enola Gay has been spotted circling Berlin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) Don't look into the flash.
Hristo you saying Gerry needs more fly'n time to get prepared?I mean didn't the LW have a 4-5 year jump on all other countries in production of military ACs and training of pilots.What type of AC did Allies have in 1949-50.Hmmm never a level field lol....... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
<cough> Super Sabre <cough>
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Well, in case someone pull numerical superiority and better quality factor, this might be the first answer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Allied pilots should be allowed to fly only for a few months, then rotating back to home or to some staff duties (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Luftwaffe pilots should not have such experience limit and will be allowed to fly AH until they die (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) They will also get very unexperienced newbies, I agree.
Similar with bomber crews and number of missions before going back home.
Meanwhile, swarms of newbies will take their place, flying overweight planes with DTs and full tanks deep into enemy territory to fight the Luftwaffe.
If LW pilot bails, he can fly another mission. If an opportunist bails, he is captured and not able to fly AH again.
No radar and observers for the Allies, while Luftwaffe has all of them.
What do you think the outcome will be ?
Sorry, just kidding, but that's the answer to Vulch/Lack of fuel arguments (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by mx22:
Pongo,
You are now flying German planes with no realibility issues whatsoever. I think it was JG26 book, where I read that many latewar German planes were rather dangerous to fly because of poor manufacturing. So before you scream anything else, think if you want your BF109G10 quit on you every other mission.
N1K2s would have water as their gas in that case... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I remember reading that quality control in German aircraft industry remained rigorous right to the end.
Besides, Luftwaffe never lacked planes, but pilots.
Even fuel was not the issue as some here are trying to suggest.
Ever heard of poor quality Daimler Benz ??? Unrealiable BMW ? Focke Wulf losing parts ?! Sheesh !
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N1K2s would have water as their gas in that case...
They already do Fishu (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Thats why it has such poor top speed even though it has a 2000hp radial on it. The performance tests were conducted with 85 octane gas, that had pine tree oil additive, which was pretty much the standard Japanese aviation gasoline at that point in the war.
A post war test in the US of a Ki-84 (same engine as the N1K2), using 100 octane avgas, produced a top speed of 427 mph. But its "official" top speed, and of course the speed it will be modeled in AH, is somewhere in the 380's.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Hristo,
They had more planes, then pilots no questions here. From what I remember, problem was with engines breaking down on their first flgiht. In US new planes will be test flown before arriving in fighting squadrons, not so in Germany during late stages of the war.
Unreliable BMW engines? Heheh I'm not a fan of 190s, but even I know it took them a while to stop that engine form overheating in early models.
mx22
[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
...while opportunists make 1 tour and are rotated back home.
This "opportunist" thing keeps cropping up.
I looked it up, and an opportunist is "one who takes advantage of opportunities or circumstances with little regard for principles or ultimate consequences."
So, I guess Allied pilots:
1. Take advantage of opportunities/circumstances to shoot other people down.
2. Don't care about all those chivalry and "blond knights of the air" principles.
3. Just dive right in, no matter what the odds.
Well, OK... I can live with that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But tell me, how would they then be different from the non-allied fliers in this game?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Well, in case someone pull numerical superiority and better quality factor, this might be the first answer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Allied pilots should be allowed to fly only for a few months, then rotating back to home or to some staff duties (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Luftwaffe pilots should not have such experience limit and will be allowed to fly AH until they die (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) They will also get very unexperienced newbies, I agree.
Similar with bomber crews and number of missions before going back home.
Meanwhile, swarms of newbies will take their place, flying overweight planes with DTs and full tanks deep into enemy territory to fight the Luftwaffe.
If LW pilot bails, he can fly another mission. If an opportunist bails, he is captured and not able to fly AH again.
No radar and observers for the Allies, while Luftwaffe has all of them.
What do you think the outcome will be ?
Sorry, just kidding, but that's the answer to Vulch/Lack of fuel arguments (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-11-2000).]
But alas you forget multiple tours, escape and evade, and the allied pilots are getting trained by veterans. Then there's window, and finding luftwaffles isn't very hard. Just follow the nearest bomber formation as it's turning back home from a bombing run.
And if you ask me it's alot more of an opportunist to attack torn apart planes that have gone through hundreds of flak batteries then it is attacking a fully capable plane that is only a bail away from safety.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
- Jig
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Ok Hristo as long as everyonme gets just one life.
But to represent a realistic enviroment i.e. one with a 262 you would have to give superiority of the sky to the allies.
You are talking about representing realistic careers and if you wanted to do that it would require 1 kill and your dead.
I am not arguing against a 262 i would just like to see it restricted. The truth if the meteor was a LW plane it would have seen plenty of action the reason it didn't was cicumstances (a meteor squad was based in holland in the war). The reason therefore they should have equal status perk wise is you want the 262 but you do not want it in the circumstances that meant it saw action.
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ROFL, ya can't swing a dead (Hell)cat around here without hittin' somebody's "hidden" agenda (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The Spitfire 14 wasn't "significant" enough to be in the game, but the FW-190D and Me-262 and Ta-152 and even the He-162 ARE worthy of inclusion?
The Spitfire 14 in Warbirds (and also the Dora, let's not forget) purposely had their "nuts cut" for playability because they were sooooo good and so unbalancing otherwise, but the EXACT SAME guys who built those planes in Warbirds (and allegedly "porked" them) are going to make them "historically accurate" here? Thereby introducing this HUGE imbalance into the game because they're too good??? Hard to keep a straight face typing that one, but surely SOMEONE besides me can see through the BS being flung here?
Same song, different pub, I guess. MY airplane MUST be included, and in that other sim, it was porked for playability to insure a US bias, and if they model it "realistically," it'll clean the floor with all those sorry Mustangs and Corsairs, unless they start modeling mechanical (un)reliability so the Japanese planes will suck and the wundermaschine of the LW will turn into so much junk blah blah blah!
How ANY of you can argue against the inclusion of ANY legitimate combat plane from WW2 is beyond me. You either trust HTC to look out for the "balance" issues, or you don't. If you DO trust em, then take the planes you're given and fly em. If you DON'T trust em, then why are you even here?
If you guys were REALLY interested in expanding your WW2 combat horizons, you'd be asking for early-war planes, particularly the axis types which dominated the early war period, and an RPS that shows those planes off. But that isn't what you're really interested in, is it? You just wanna prove that that dweeb who flies US/LW iron actually sucks but only gets his kills because the Mustang/190A5 is so totally overmodeled.
As long as you want to cling to the "uberplane-of-the-week" plan, you can hardly call foul if the other guy gets "his" uberplane before you get "yours." If you're gonna have an F4U-1C, you can't say no to the Dora (or even the Ta-152 IMO). If you have Dora, you can't say no to Spit XIV. Or Yak-3. Or F4U-4. Etc, etc, etc.
The only thing I saw that made sense is that you should release the things in pairs, i.e. Spit 14 and Dora released together, so that you don't give one side or the other the "ultimate weapon" unchecked.
OK, resume pissing on each other now...
--jedi
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Well Said, Jedi.
No matter what though, there will ALWAYS be the LW v Allied mudslinging.
Remember those license plates that say "Hell, NO, I ain't fergettin!" ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Me? Every plane, any plane! I don't care because they all have different strengths and weaknesses. I do think an RPS setup would be nice, once we get more planes.
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For the record, I am all for bringing Spit XIV and Dora to AH, modeled as close to as they were.
As for discussing circumstances, I just made a joke as reply to some silly poor quality and no fuel arguments.
Face it, Meteor is not even close to the significance of the 262. In any aspect, from historical accounts to the flight characteristics or even esthetics. Forget it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you are not afraid of 262, how come you ask for numerical superiority and vulch conditions ?
Perk 162, perk 335, perk 152, but perk the Meteor too. 262 ? Nope, it is not the same category, that one actually saw heavy action.
What plane were Galland and Steinhoff flying when they were wounded ?
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Jedi, all I ask for is dive speed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Is that so much ?
How would US types feel if they were given to fly P 39 and P 40 in AH, instead of F4U-1C and P 51D ?
That's how LW types feel in Bf 109F-4 instead of Fw 190D-9.
Same with Spit types, flying Mark V instead of Mark XIV.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-11-2000).]
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LWs, lay off the combat requirement for late-late-war aircraft. Just because Germany was getting its bellybutton kicked and threw any-thing/idea they had at the Allies (some good, some bad) doesn't mean that HTC should model Germany's end-of-war experimental stuff. If you guys think that the US, UK and USSR didn't have wierd, high potential stuff in proto-type, you're clueless. The Allies happened to be in a position of great superiority over Germany. They didn't have to risk their pilots lives by throwing them into combat in untested equipment. We may, in retrospect, say that the Brits and Yanks were silly to worry about whether jets were ready or not, but that would be overlooking some of the problems (for example, no WWII jet will accerate with a WWII piston engined fighter) that early jets had. If England or America were in Germany's place in 1944, you can bet your shorts they would have deployed Meteors and P-80s.
My take is this:
If it entered active service in the years 1939 to 1944, let it in as a standard, fly it anytime you like aircraft. This is supposed to be a sim, so let people have the equipment and then figure out what to do with it (it doesn't matter to me that the Fw190D-9 will outrun my Spitfire MkXIV at 2,000 feet).
If it entered active service in 1945 or was in proto-type when the war ended, make it a perk plane.
Edit: Hristo, this was not posted in response to your 2 posts immediately above it. You posted those while I wrote this one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
My take is this:
If it entered active service in the years 1939 to 1944, let it in as a standard, fly it anytime you like aircraft. This is supposed to be a sim, so let people have the equipment and then figure out what to do with it (it doesn't matter to me that the Fw190D-9 will outrun my Spitfire MkXIV at 2,000 feet).
If it entered active service in 1945 or was in proto-type when the war ended, make it a perk plane.
So, you are for unlimited 262s too ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
WTG, I agree with you getting your Spit XIV.
As for outrunning you on the deck, it is all that matters to me. Diving and deck chasing to stay alive. Turning will only get you killed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Hristo:
... Diving and deck chasing to stay alive. Turning will only get you killed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hristo, this sounds like you are a <gasp> OPPORTUNIST!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bring in the Dora, so people will stop bothering me and my overmodelled P47D hehehe.
A5 was a terror when he came in AH. Most people claimed 'I love my A5!'... and now what? it's an average plane not good at anything... muahahaha.
Oh and the G10 hehehe I may slightly outdive it but he can catch up with me while on deck, and he climbs way better than my P47.
I think LW have 2 killers there, but bring it on over models, I take plane set and opponents 'as it'. I may run more often, or at least try to hehehe.
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Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/brb.gif)
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Yes, Hristo. I did mean the 262 as well.
Me262, yes. Tempest, yes. Spitfire MkXIV, yes. Meteor, Yes. Fw190D-9, yes. Me163, yes. F6F, Yes. Ki84, Yes. Yak 3, yes.
Ta152, perk, yes. Spitfire MkF.21, perk, yes. Fury, perk, yes. P-80, perk, yes. J7W1, perk, yes. A7M2, perk, yes. F7F, perk, yes.
The diference is that you can outrun me with your 262, 109G-10 or 190D-9, but I would have a Spit that could outrun some things as opposed to just the A6M5b and C.202.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I will try to outline my argument clearly.
The 262 was rushed into service perhaps before it was ready because the allies had almost taotal air superiority as a result when it did enter service it wasn't short of an enemy or 2 too shot down.
The meteor on the otherhand was introduced at about the same time. But due to cicumstances didn't see hardly any action (despite a squadron based on the continent) passed some V1's.
Now this argument came from hristo suggesting the meteor should perked but the 262 see plenty of action. My objection to this is the 262 saw plenty of combat due to circumstance but the LW want the plane but don't want the cicumstance.
i.e. the plane should be unperked but they also want a parity with the enemy but if these were the cicumstances for the LW i would bet the 262 would not have seen any more combat than the meteor.
There also would be a balance issue. If you you include a 262 unperked for historic reasons it would have a completley un-historic effect on the arena with the 262 completley dominating where as in real life it maintained a no better record than the 190/109.
Some may smack of hypocrisy considering my asking for a spit 14 which some say would un-historically dominate the arena, but i diagree it wouldn't in an arena of it's contemperies (la-7, ki-84, dora, yak 3, f4u -4, p51-D, tempest V).
The 262 would have that unbalancing effect (even with a meteor on equal status).
It's up to HTC to deal with balance issues and hopefully they will do that with out castrating planes.
I wish them luck
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...the LW want the plane but don't want the cicumstance.
One of the most astute observations I've seen made in along time. All of this Allied versus Luftwaffe garbage ignores that very issue as each side tries to advance the argument that "my plane" should get modeled and have unlimited availability while others (and particularly those of the other side) should be restricted/perked/etc.
If we're going to use strictly historical criteria for which planes get added, which planes are perked, and which planes have limited availability, then the *only* way to do so and be consistent in our application of these principles is to also apply the same circumstances from which these planes came to see combat.
And, while that might be interesting or challenging to take that approach for a short while, it certainly doesn't make for fun gameplay in the longer term. What's the use in including the Me262 if availability is so strict that only one or two are in the air at any one time? Or if the enemy has an in-air spawn point over your Me262 field to recreate the nearly-constant Allied CAP that existed near these fields?
No... that's obviously not an approach that benefits anyone. Rather, the approach should be to model aircraft by a more flexible criteria (one which allows the Ta152 as well as the F8F, and one that perhaps even allows for a modified N1K2 using the American testdata).
Personally, the defining criteria that is going to be the most useful is determining how to separate perk planes from standard aircraft. My thought is to take the aircraft which set a relatively level bar in late 1944 in terms of aircraft performance and work from there.
On December 31, 1944 I would classify the following aircraft as both leaders for their respective nations, and relatively equal in terms of performance (I might use the word "peers"). These aircraft would set the dividing line between perk and standard aircraft:
Spit XIV
P-51D
P-47H
P-38L
FW-190D
109G10/K
Ki84
N1K2 (Japanese data)
Aircraft whose performance would generally be thought to exceed the performance of these aircraft would become perk aircraft. That would include aircraft like the Ta-152, F8F, P-51H, P-47M, Me262, N1K2 with American data, etc.
The result is that you produce a situation of relative play balance (which is *good* for a main arena oriented game), and one where the dividing line between standard and perk is relatively clear. Obviously, the situation would be far different for scenarios, historical arenas, and so forth, but that's not what's being discussed here.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 07-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
One of the most astute observations I've seen made in along time. All of this Allied versus Luftwaffe garbage ignores that very issue as each side tries to advance the argument that "my plane" should get modeled and have unlimited availability while others (and particularly those of the other side) should be restricted/perked/etc.
If we're going to use strictly historical criteria for which planes get added, which planes are perked, and which planes have limited availability, then the *only* way to do so and be consistent in our application of these principles is to also apply the same circumstances from which these planes came to see combat.
And, while that might be interesting or challenging to take that approach for a short while, it certainly doesn't make for fun gameplay in the longer term. What's the use in including the Me262 if availability is so strict that only one or two are in the air at any one time? Or if the enemy has an in-air spawn point over your Me262 field to recreate the nearly-constant Allied CAP that existed near these fields?
No... that's obviously not an approach that benefits anyone. Rather, the approach should be to model aircraft by a more flexible criteria (one which allows the Ta152 as well as the F8F, and one that perhaps even allows for a modified N1K2 using the American testdata).
Personally, the defining criteria that is going to be the most useful is determining how to separate perk planes from standard aircraft. My thought is to take the aircraft which set a relatively level bar in late 1944 in terms of aircraft performance and work from there.
On December 31, 1944 I would classify the following aircraft as both leaders for their respective nations, and relatively equal in terms of performance (I might use the word "peers"). These aircraft would set the dividing line between perk and standard aircraft:
Spit XIV
P-51D
P-47H
P-38L
FW-190D
109G10/K
Ki84
N1K2 (Japanese data)
Aircraft whose performance would generally be thought to exceed the performance of these aircraft would become perk aircraft. That would include aircraft like the Ta-152, F8F, P-51H, P-47M, Me262, N1K2 with American data, etc.
The result is that you produce a situation of relative play balance (which is *good* for a main arena oriented game), and one where the dividing line between standard and perk is relatively clear. Obviously, the situation would be far different for scenarios, historical arenas, and so forth, but that's not what's being discussed here.
I get it! So your saying that the 262 should fill the historical roll, however so ironic, of a dive bomber? Makes sense to me. No ditching the eggs till bombing an enemy target, and while carrying those bombs the 262 is nothing more that a poor climbing, poor accelerating, poor turning jabo with little more speed then a clean prop fighter.
After all that is why it took so long before it was finally in use. Why not make it part of the circumstances?
Well of course that would never work but it sure would be funny running down Jabbo 262's.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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No Jig... what we're saying is that there's no use in inserting an aircraft which, as we all know, outclasses its opponents in an revolutionary sense, rather than an evolutionary sense.
Putting in aircraft like the Me262, P-47M, Ta-152H, P-51H, Tempest V, and so forth, without any perk or check/balance system, is silly and should be patently obvious to anyone.
Putting in a well-matched set of aircraft to mark the high-water mark of the "standard" planeset is an eminently reasonable idea IMO.
I appreciate the shot-across-the-bow at the LW pilots, but I actually prefer to craft an honest, serious reply on this point (for once <G> ).
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 07-13-2000).]
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
No Jig... what we're saying is that there's no use in inserting an aircraft which, as we all know, outclasses its opponents in an revolutionary sense, rather than an evolutionary sense.
Putting in aircraft like the Me262, P-47M, Ta-152H, P-51H, Tempest V, and so forth, without any perk or check/balance system, is silly and should be patently obvious to anyone.
Tempest V? It's at least 40mph slower than any of the planes you compare it with, and came out before any of them.
The Tempest would probably be the most balanced RAF plane if it was introduced.
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Not at 5K it ain't... I believe it can run down the Dora on the deck. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In any event, I just tossed out some potential plane types, and obviously, people are free to object.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by Karnak:
If it entered active service in the years 1939 to 1944, let it in as a standard, fly it anytime you like aircraft. This is supposed to be a sim, so let people have the equipment and then figure out what to do with it (it doesn't matter to me that the Fw190D-9 will outrun my Spitfire MkXIV at 2,000 feet).
If it entered active service in 1945 or was in proto-type when the war ended, make it a perk plane.
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-11-2000).]
If it was so good it would unballance the arena, its a perk plane. Who cares about the dates?
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
No Jig... what we're saying is that there's no use in inserting an aircraft which, as we all know, outclasses its opponents in an revolutionary sense, rather than an evolutionary sense.
Putting in aircraft like the Me262, P-47M, Ta-152H, P-51H, Tempest V, and so forth, without any perk or check/balance system, is silly and should be patently obvious to anyone.
And if the Spit XIV is such a plane. Putting it in is silly too. That is ALL I have ever said.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
If it was so good it would unballance the arena, its a perk plane. Who cares about the dates?
That is just the idea, pongo...if it will unbalance the MA, perk it. So SpitXIV falls in the Perk planeset from my point of view, while planes as TempestV, D9, La7 and so on doenst.They all have serious drawbacks.
SpitXIV has NO drawbacks apart from its fuel endurance (bigger than 109G10's, so still that isnt so serious problem).
SpitXIV is a MONSTER.
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You guys seem like a broken record... how about starting another Spit XIV thread so we can see another 100 "Is so!" "Is not!" responses.
For what it is worth, most of the other Perk planes mentioned here (P-47M, Ta152, P-51H, Me-262, etc) are 40-50 IAS faster than the XIV at altitude and can handily outdive the XIV at any alt.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Spit XIV and Dora, no perking pls (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes is right, the Spit XIV might be too good as a normal plane, but it isn't good enough to fit in with the other aircraft that are being touted as perk planes.
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::snugs Dunce hat firmly in place::
Not coming from the WB or AW community I have no first hand knowledge of "Perk" planes. These are A/C supposedly
so good that all else falls before it except another perky? And total disruptors of game balance in the Main Arena and are so trotted out only on given days or handed out to certain pilots for deeds far and above average play (as decided by the scoring system)? As it is now anyone can be tooling along and run into a another aircraft from the virtual future and have to duke it out..outcome uncertain but more than likely in favour of the better stick. How does this work any differently than the advent of the planes being discussed here? Do you guys have experience with this type of thing that you can share, i mean have you seen skys full of 190D-12s chasing some poor guys in C-202 (or equivalent)? Lotsa questions, just seems for a topic that engenders so much discussion here that it must be more than a I want my favourite hot rod (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
JimBear