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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Staga on April 30, 2001, 08:23:00 PM

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on April 30, 2001, 08:23:00 PM

These two please.
 (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/cfs2/he177cvHenschel_4.jpg)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: AG Sachsenberg on April 30, 2001, 09:32:00 PM

JU-188 or He-177 would be my bet on a mid- to late war buff.

------------------
 (http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)

Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-30-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Kieran on April 30, 2001, 10:05:00 PM

There are Japanese options that might do nicely, you know...  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: jato757 on April 30, 2001, 11:04:00 PM

fw 200 condor pleaz  
she's so purty

   (http://www.cropp.demon.co.uk/FW/PICS/FW200.GIF)  

[This message has been edited by jato757 (edited 04-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by jato757 (edited 04-30-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Karnak on April 30, 2001, 11:22:00 PM

jato757,
Condor'd be a death trap ya know.  The thing was quite fragile.

Good Axis Bomber Options:

H8K2
He177
Ki67
Ju188
P1Y1
Do217

Kieran,
You forget.  To a lot of these guys Allies = America, Britain & Russia; Axis = Germany and Japan = Japanese.  Might as well forget about Italy and Finland.

To us Allies = America, Britain & Russia and Axis = German, Japan, Italy and Finland.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: jato757 on May 01, 2001, 01:10:00 AM

ya whatever, the thin had a 20 mm on the tail and chin with other gunz elts where. i think its bomb load was 8,000lb i could be wrong. one more thing, planes are made to fly, not get shot so all are fragle  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: juzz on May 01, 2001, 01:19:00 AM

What does "real bomber" mean? Something big, slow and über-gunned like the B-17G?

Or something fast, like the...

Uhh, just where ARE the fast bombers in AH???

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: juzz on May 01, 2001, 01:53:00 AM

The Fw 200 Condor had a 4,650lbs maximum bombload, and a blistering top speed of 224mph. At sea level it managed to do 190mph. Apparently even the lumbering Short Sunderland flying boat had a good chance of catching one.

Re: fragile, see this:
 (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1082.jpg)

Hard landings tended to lead to a broken back. I believe that recently an intact Condor was retrieved from out of a lake - it broke in half while being recovered though.

The Fw 200 wasn't designed as a combat aircraft. It was a long-range airliner(world's best at the time) converted to the maritime patrol role out of neccessity.

It's civilian origins are the reason why it has such nice lines.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 01, 2001, 02:32:00 AM

Give us some Russian or Japanese bombers!!

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: illo on May 01, 2001, 04:36:00 AM

He 177A-5 due to its speed and defensive rarmament.

Condor would be useless

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Vermillion on May 01, 2001, 06:27:00 AM

If you want a good late war Axis Bomber, you have two choices. Both Japanese.

Ki67 "Peggy" - Very fast for a bomber(somewhere between 40-60 mph faster than a B26), good guns (mostly 20mm cannons), decent bomb load, and torpedo capable.

P1Y1 "Frances" - Even faster than the Ki67, light defensive guns (nose and dorsal, both 20mm), smaller bomb load, but highly manueverable, and also torpedo capable.

All the German bombers from midwar on, were slow, undergunned, and big fat targets. Sorry but the Germans never really made a good medium or heavy bomber, beyond the early war years.

If you looking for something similar from the Allies, I would say a Tu-2 or a Mosquito.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 01, 2001, 09:19:00 AM

Maybe its time to allies have something like Ju-88 is, a early war bomber.
Like Blenheim or SB-2  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 01, 2001, 09:23:00 AM

A small comparison

              He-177 "Greif"       Ki-67 "Peggy"         P1Y1 "Frances"       H8K "Emily"
Bomb load      6000 kg+2*Hs293         800 kg               1000 kg              2000 kg
Speed          490 kmh             537 kmh                546 kmh              466 kmh
Armament     7,92+2*20+3*13mm     1*20mm+5*12,7mm        1*20mm+2*13mm      5*20mm+4* 7,7mm
Empty mass       16800 kg             8700 kg               7265 kg             18400 kg
Start mass       31000 kg           13800 kg              10500 kg        32000 kg
Range W/load      5000 km             2800 km               1915 km              6200 km

[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-03-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Karnak on May 01, 2001, 10:28:00 AM

Staga,
How do you reason that the 1934 Blenheim is the equivilent of the 1940 Ju88.  Blenhiem and Do17 MIGHT be considered a match.

The closest the British have to the Ju88 would either be a Wellington (though I see that as more of an He111 equivilent) or a Mosquito B.MkIV.  The vesatility of both the Ju88 and Mosquito airframes makes me lean towards the Mosquito.

Just because the Axis never built any outstanding heavy bombers doesn't mean you need to get bent out of shape and grossly exagerate the relationships of what was built.

I think that the best you can hope for as far as Axis heavy bombers go would be an He177 Greif or an H8K2 "Emily", and the Emily doesn't have the bombload, only the guns and durability.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: R4M on May 01, 2001, 11:17:00 AM

 

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak:
Staga,
How do you reason that the 1934 Blenheim is the equivilent of the 1940 Ju88.  Blenhiem and Do17 MIGHT be considered a match.

Ahem. The Bristol Blenheim started to get into service in the RAF in 1938. Just as the Ju88 entered service in the Luftwaffe. Get your facts straight,please   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).

 

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The closest the British have to the Ju88 would either be a Wellington (though I see that as more of an He111 equivilent) or a Mosquito B.MkIV.  The vesatility of both the Ju88 and Mosquito airframes makes me lean towards the Mosquito.

The wellington?...lol come on, the Wellington crews I'm sure were praying to god to have something as fast as the Ju88 for their night runs over Germany.

And BTW you lean towards the Mosquito?. Naturally...its a 1940 designed plane,rushed into service in 1941 (not like the Ju88,wich was designed in 1936, wich entered service in 1938)


 

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Just because the Axis never built any outstanding heavy bombers doesn't mean you need to get bent out of shape and grossly exagerate the relationships of what was built.

I think the He177A-5 was a damned fine bomber, when the engines didnt catch fire   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). And in any case the Messerchmitt Me-263 showed awesome promise. Tough luck that in 1944 the LW had to concentrate on fighter only, but the fact remains there that good german heavy bombers were there, just not in the numbers.

 

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I think that the best you can hope for as far as Axis heavy bombers go would be an He177 Greif or an H8K2 "Emily", and the Emily doesn't have the bombload, only the guns and durability.

The only think wich can convert me in a pilot flying bombers in AH is a Greif   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Fast,with decent protection and with almost twice the load of a B-17. You think that's bad?

Heh, ok, I want that "bad" plane   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-01-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 01, 2001, 11:44:00 AM

 

Quote

Ahem. The Bristol Blenheim started to get into service in the RAF in 1938. Just as the Ju88 entered service in the Luftwaffe. Get your facts straight,please  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).

lol!  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I suggest it is you who should get his facts straight.

The first Blenheim prototype flew on 12th April 1935, and entered service in March 1937.

You're wrong again, dear boy.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

 

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I think the He177A-5 was a damned fine bomber, when the engines didnt catch fire...

Err... hardly a good bomber then, is it! Reliability has to be a key part of the design of a good bomber.

Only 565 He177A-5s were built - compare that to 7,781 Mosquitos, in its various guises. Yet again the LW contingent look to A/C that were barely produced, and claim them to be a mainstream equivalent to a hugely produced Allied plane.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

That collective chip on the shoulder gets bigger with every post you lot make.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Karnak on May 01, 2001, 11:55:00 AM

Staga,

"Ju88
Type: Bomber
Manufacturer: Junkers Flugzeug und Motorenwerke AG
Service Entry: 1939
Crew: 4"

And:

"The Blenheim was originally built in in England in 1934 as one of the first executive planes for the proprietor of the Daily Mail. Lord Rothmere wanted a fast plane capable of carrying six passengers, the pilot and the co-pilot. Equipped with two Bristol Mercury engines, the Bristol Type 142, as it was then called, was 30 mph (48km/h) faster than the RAF's new biplane fighter, the Gloster Gauntlet.

Bristol began designing a military version of their new aircraft, the Type 142M. The Air Ministry placed an order for 150 aircraft in the summer of 1935, and a second order for 434 more followed in July of 1937. The Type 142M, or Blenheim I, as it was now called, had a bomb aimer's station in the nose, an internal bomb bay, and a dorsal machine gun turret for self-defense. There was also a single machine gun in the port wing. The Blenheim was of all-metal construction, with the nose of the plane barely extending beyond the engines. It was equipped with two Bristol Mercury engines. When first revealed to the public, the Blenheim's speed attracted great notice and led to the belief Britain was armed with the best bomber in the world. This myth became self-perpetuating and soon two new production lines had to be set up as orders for still more aircraft were placed. A total of 1,552 Blenheim Is were built and equipped 26 RAF squadrons at home and in British possessions in Iraq and India.

Engines: Two 905-hp Bristol Mercury XV radial piston engines
Weight: Empty 9,790 lbs., Max Takeoff 14,400 lbs.
Wing Span: 56ft. 4in.
Length: 42ft. 7in.
Height: 9ft. 10in.
Performance: Maximum Speed: 266 mph; Cruising Speed: 198 mph; Ceiling: 27,260 ft.; Range: 1,460 miles
Armament: Five 7.7-mm (0.303-inch) machine guns, plus up to 1,000 pounds of bombs internally and 320 pounds externally."

You are comparing a purpose built bomber with an older light civilian transport that was modified to serve as a bomber, like the Do17.  Furthermore you are distorting the entry dates for both aircraft, particularly the Blenheim (I admit that I got the entry dates off by a year, the Blenheim seems to enter service in 1935 and the Ju88 in 1939, but they are certainly not both 1938 aircraft).

I stand by the Wellington being a better match for the Ju88, both in designed purpose and in service dates.

Comparing the Blenheim and Ju88 is simply displaying your Luftwaffe bias (comparing the Mosquito with the Ju88 was displaying my RAF bias).

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-01-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 01, 2001, 12:02:00 PM

Karnak wtf are you talking about ????

All I typed was
"Maybe its time to allies have something like Ju-88 is, a early war bomber.
Like Blenheim or SB-2"

Ju-88 is a early war bomber and so is Blenheim and SB-2 too.


[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-01-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: brady on May 01, 2001, 12:03:00 PM

The Piaggio P.108 was one of the heaviest and most powerfull bombers of the entire war.

 8 12.7mm Breda-SAFT,Internal bay for 3 torpedos,or up to 7,716lb's of bombs (3500kg)

 Max speed 267mph.

   (http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcNII3GsO25WMPYGLeJCM0QviqQXSex7wsIepeWDt!xSHzwN6entS5Be*0wh5)  

 This would be great AXIS heavy.

 I do have a soft spot for the He 177 though, and the P1Y1, Ki 67 and the H8K.

------------------
 (http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d60JNIFs2mHfM9ggHF4xY6Gy1uBBOIL0vAzWuZ4VQ!pBhaoFjvmZM4qCFICQ)

[This message has been edited by brady (edited 05-01-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: brady on May 01, 2001, 12:06:00 PM

The Piaggio P.108 was one of the heaviest and most powerfull bombers of the entire war.

 8 12.7mm Breda-SAFT,Internal bay for 3 torpedos,or up to 7,716lb's of bombs (3500kg)

 Max speed 267mph.

   (http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcNII3GsO25WMPYGLeJCM0QviqQXSex7wsIepeWDt!xSHzwN6entS5Be*0wh5)  

 This would be a great AXIS heavy.

 I do have a soft spot for the He 177 though, and the P1Y1, Ki 67 and the H8K.

[This message has been edited by brady (edited 05-01-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 01, 2001, 12:17:00 PM

The Junkers Ju88 was developed according to the third RLM request of 1935, which asked for a quick bomber aircraft. The developement was started under the designator EF59. Parallel designs for the RLM request were the Henschel Hs127 and the Messerschmitt Bf162. The developement was started by Zindel, Evers and Gassner in January 1936. The prototype construction began in May 1936 and on December, 21st 1936 Kindermann performed the first flight with the Ju88V1 D-AQEN

Taken from "Hugo Junkers homepage": http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hzoe/ju_home.htm (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hzoe/ju_home.htm)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: AG Sachsenberg on May 01, 2001, 12:26:00 PM

First brady you ever checked your e-mail yet?  
Second Doodling what are your sources that state the dates you posted?  
Third the HE-177 according to combat reports would suffer attrition rates to mechanical difficulties comparable to allied bomber units.
Fourth
 

Quote

Only 565 He177A-5s were built - compare that to 7,781 Mosquitos, in its various guises. Yet again the LW contingent look to A/C that were barely produced, and claim them to be a mainstream equivalent to a hugely produced Allied plane.

Isn't that like comparing a 109 to a 410 production wise and operational status?  Why don't you compare it to the JU-88 and then you might see the numbers flipped around   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)  Doodling I suggest you stick to your current job of not knowing anything then what is posted on the internet.  

------------------
 (http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)

Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-01-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 01, 2001, 12:40:00 PM

uhmmm... How many C-Hogs were in WW2?  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Karnak on May 01, 2001, 12:48:00 PM

AG Sachsenberg,
Um, I might be mistaken, but we already have a Ju88 in AH.  I think I can distinctly remember flying it though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Yes, there were more Ju88s than Mosquitos and there were more Lancasters than He177s, but the Ju88 airframe and Lancaster airframe are already present (we could use 1 or 2 Ju88 variants at some point) in AH, so all is proper.

Staga,
The reason I reacted badly to seeing Ju88 and Blenheim in the same sentence is because when the Ju88A-4 and Lancaster MkIII were added to AH several Luftwaffe fans objected on the grounds that if they were getting the Ju88A-4 then the RAF fans should be getting the Blenheim MkI.  If you were not one of those guys, I apologize for jumping on you.  I still think that the best early war RAF bomber would be the Wellington though.

If the Ju88 stems from a 1935 RLM request, can I use the design request date on the Bristol Blenheim?  Its probably 1930 or 31.

I don't think its very accurate to describe service dates by using design request dates.  That'd make the Spitfire and 109 1932 aircraft.

FWIW, my two prefered bombers in AH are the Ju88A-4 and Lancaster MkIII.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 01, 2001, 01:10:00 PM

 

Quote

Second Doodling what are your sources that state the dates you posted?

Flypast Magazine, April 1999.

 

Quote

Isn't that like comparing a 109 to a 410 production wise and operational status? Why don't you compare it to the JU-88 and then you might see the numbers flipped around...

You miss the point. I am talking about AH here, and the introduction of aircraft based on their production numbers. Like Karnak kindly pointed out, we already have the Ju88 (I can back up his claim to having flown it  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), and for any kind of parity (factoring current requirements), the Mossie would be a better choice over a relatively rare LW aircraft.

 

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Doodling I suggest you stick to your current job of not knowing anything then what is posted on the internet.

Nice of you to lower the tone of the debate, Sturm. I guess that's what having an IQ of 171 gets you - the ability to formulate highly amusing puns at the drop of a hat. You really are killing me here, comedic phenomenon that you are. Are you a writer for the 'Friends' show, by any chance?

As for the internet thing. Oh dear - I posted my non-net based sources in that discussion on the Falkland's War. Which incidently you didn't continue.

Sure, you have to be careful with the net and the veracity of information therein, but there is some reliable information out there.

Incidently, I didn't use the internet to gain a Masters Degree in Applied Physics.

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Replicant on May 01, 2001, 01:12:00 PM

Hmm... the Blenheim (believe it or not) wasn't officially classed as a bomber and is no way comparable to the Ju88 - the Ju88 is a vastly superior aircraft to the Blenheim.  Blenheim's equipped RAF Fighter Command, not Bomber command (the Blenheim replacements was the Beaufort and the Beaufighter, which of course I would sooner have and are both 'early war').  I would put the Blenheim in the same class as the Hs129, Me110 etc...

Anyway, yes I agree that we need a decent Luftwaffe bomber and it's something I've been asking for over a year now.

The obvious choice would be the He177, or Ju290.  Of course the late war Arado 234 is a very nice addition but unfortunately one that is a perk plane.

Regards

Nexx

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: AG Sachsenberg on May 01, 2001, 01:31:00 PM

Dowd, ok I know I should have looked at the numbers closer, over 1100 He-177's were made.  As far as the JU-88 I think a different variant then the A-4 should have been used.  By 42/43 the A-4 was out of service, it just puzzles me as to why every game you see the A-4?

Looking into the numbers game
Ta-152 around 150
F4U-1c 200
Fw 190 A-8 1100
Fw 190 D-9 700- 950 or so
AR-234 no figure off top of head, was low.

 

Quote

You miss the point. I am talking about AH here, and the introduction of aircraft based on their production numbers. Like Karnak kindly pointed out, we already have the Ju88 (I can back up his claim to having flown it ), and for any kind of parity (factoring current requirements), the Mossie would be a better choice over a relatively rare LW aircraft.

On the contrary, one thing the Luftwaffe had was a bizaare amount of vairants within a certain aircraft production series.

Over 20,000 Focke Wulfs were made but that is broken down into the airframes that were involved such as the A-1 thru A-9, D-9 thru D-13 "14,15 were cancelled do to 152 production"  Even though they really were 152's.

Over 14,000 Ju-88's were made as well.  Broken down into sub variants as well.

I believe the number was 1,100 or so for the
HE-177 which would not put it as a rare bird.

Over 5,000 of the Me-110 but then again sub variants.

30,000+ for the 109, yet how many were the G-2,6, 10?  Truth being told the G series was the most manufactured of the 109's.

It really is hard to say well it is a rare plane when it comes to german designs, for they were not rare jsut certain modifications might have been.  On a side note once a plane rolled off the factory and reached its field it went thru another process, "spelling" Rustatze, "or field modification".

All these numbers are relative for I have no books in front of me.  But its safe to say yes they might have been low "variants" but production numbers were high.      

------------------
 (http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)

Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-01-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: juzz on May 02, 2001, 12:34:00 AM

How about a "flying suitcase", in Soviet markings, hehehe!

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: -lynx- on May 02, 2001, 06:51:00 AM

 

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Uhh, just where ARE the fast bombers in AH???

It's called Ar234 and they din't come faster than that in those days (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
 

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The wellington?...lol come on, the Wellington crews I'm sure were praying to god to have something as fast as the Ju88 for their night runs over Germany.

Are you sure? Sure-sure? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Last time I was watching an ex-RAF Wellington pilot talking he was saying their crews were praying they wouldn't be flying anything else over Germany. The survivability of Wellingtons due to it's unique fuselage was legendary...

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: R4M on May 02, 2001, 07:59:00 AM

 

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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Are you sure? Sure-sure?  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Last time I was watching an ex-RAF Wellington pilot talking he was saying their crews were praying they wouldn't be flying anything else over Germany. The survivability of Wellingtons due to it's unique fuselage was legendary...

Well I tend to agree with that brave ex-RAF pilot...I would've been also Thankful to be flying a Wellington over Germany in 1940 and 1941.

Mostly because the other two choices to fly over germany those days would be to fly either a Whitley or a Hampdem. Wow what a perspective  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Oh, yeah. I would had been VERY thankful to fly a wellington aswell  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

But if you ask that same ex-RAF pilot if he would've liked a plane with 30-40mph more top speed-as the Ju88 had-, I would tend to think that they would've been more thankful to fly it than the Wellington  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

So yes. I am sure. Sure sure  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Jekyll on May 02, 2001, 08:20:00 AM

Dowding stated:
 

Quote

Incidently, I didn't use the internet to gain a Masters Degree in Applied Physics.

So, was it by mail order, or out of a breakfast cereal packet?

 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: -tronski- on May 02, 2001, 08:22:00 AM

And this whole argument can be avoided by just adding the Beaufighter instead  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Also,

 7 Sqn RAF was equipped by Short Stirlings by August 1940. Stirling had an operational load of 14,000lbs compared to the 4,500lbs of the wellington, 3,900lbs of the Ju88A.

Tronsky

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 02, 2001, 11:15:00 AM

 

Quote

Originally posted by Jekyll:

 So, was it by mail order, or out of a breakfast cereal packet?

  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)[/B]

Hehehe - my PhD is mail order though.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Actually, it is from the University of Durham. In a physics department with a research rating as high as Cambridge and Oxford, in a uni which is in the same league as Oxford or Cambridge.

And no, I am not a geek. Despite spending four long years there, my hair stayed short, my interest in Star Trek stayed slight, and my social skills never became inept.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Karnak on May 02, 2001, 11:33:00 AM

Dowding,

 

Quote

And no, I am not a geek. Despite spending four long years there, my hair stayed short, my interest in Star Trek stayed slight, and my social skills never became inept.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

I call BS on this statement.

You're posting to a forum for an online WWII computer game.  You're a geek. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Fishu on May 02, 2001, 01:54:00 PM

Do 17Z, with Finnish markings  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 02, 2001, 04:46:00 PM

 

Quote

You're posting to a forum for an online WWII computer game. You're a geek.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

Ha!

I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.
I am not a geek.  

I'm just a little boy who always wanted to be a fighter pilot, but who never quite made it.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Anyway, how can I be a geek? I don't even know who Patrick Stewart is!!

Err... oops.

 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: AG Sachsenberg on May 02, 2001, 07:36:00 PM

Hmmm you have mentioned Star Trek twice and I assume you might know who PS is   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)  Since I can't email ya Dowding, can you email me?    

------------------
 (http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)

Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-02-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: -lynx- on May 03, 2001, 07:34:00 AM

 

Quote

But if you ask that same ex-RAF pilot if he would've liked a plane with 30-40mph more top speed-as the Ju88 had-, I would tend to think that they would've been more thankful to fly it than the Wellington

So yes. I am sure. Sure sure

Sorry RAM, I disagree with you there. Why did pilots love P47s? Manoeuverability? Comfort? Bollocks - it brought them home in most dire conditions. Same went for Wellingtons. Unique fuselage build was incredibly strong and they absorbed incredible amount of damage. (I have a pic of a Wellington which landed safely with no skin on the fuselage or tail aft of the wings - it flew home and landed)

40mph on a bomber makes very little difference where the enemy fighters are 100-200 mph faster. They will catch you whether you like it or not. It's what happens after they catch you that's important. And Wellington would outlive a dozen Ju88s... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: juzz on May 03, 2001, 08:21:00 AM

Speed was probably quite important for night bombers!

1. Time spent crossing the ground-radar covered "night fighter zone" - you don't want to be lumbering slowly across this corridor, which stretched N-S across Western Europe.

2. Comparitive speed - the Me 110 and Ju 88 weren't anything like 100-200mph faster than their prey once you consider the effect of weight from added equipment, and extra drag from the antennae, drop tanks and exhaust shrouds, etc.

3. Endurance - the nightfighters like Ju 88 and Me 110 had barely adequate endurance for the role - if they had to chase a bomber down, they could easily run out of fuel and have to RTB.

40mph could quite possibly be the difference between life and death for night bombers.

PS: Wasn't that de-skinned Wimpy due to a direct flak hit, not nightfighters?

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: J_A_B on May 03, 2001, 12:25:00 PM

The JU-88 had pretty good performance for a bomber, but I'd never want to be in one in a daylight battle.

The major weakness of the JU-88 was the massing of the crew in the nose with insufficient armor to protect them.  It was a VERY vulnerable design to fighter attacks.  Indifferent defensive guns didn't help it any either.

How many of those He-177's were ever built???

J_A_B

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 03, 2001, 12:39:00 PM

Hmm this site (http://www.simviation.com/fsdcbainhe177.htm) claims its internal bombload was max 6000kg... (almost same as Lancs btw)

Quote from Warbirdsresourcegroup:
Production:
8 Prototypes
35 He 177A-0 (Mainly Arado built)
130 He 177A-1 (Arado built)
170 He 177A-3 (Heinkel Built)
826 He 177A-5



[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-03-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 03, 2001, 01:01:00 PM

More info about He-177: http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/he-177.htm (http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/he-177.htm)

(A5/R5 or A5/R8 would be worth of one (1) bottle of FPO.)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: R4M on May 03, 2001, 02:49:00 PM

what juzz said     (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .And, Until better night fighters were available, many Do17 models were used as nightfighters. IIRC with a top speed of around 260mph.

So, a British night bomber with 280mph would've simply never had been intercepted by a german Do-17, so effectively denying the germans the effectivity of one of their most numerous (for that time) night fighters    (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

BTW if you think that a Ju88 could not withstand heavy damage you are quite wrong  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-03-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Jack55 on May 03, 2001, 03:01:00 PM

This site gives a 20,000 LB bomb load for a B-17G. Looks like AH has short changed the fortress.
 http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/history/boeing/b17.html (http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/history/boeing/b17.html)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: R4M on May 03, 2001, 03:20:00 PM

I dont doubt the B17 could lift 20000lbs of bombs, just as the lancaster could lift a tallboy. But I would really want to know the range of that plane, the lenght of the runway,the ammount of adaptation work needed(the B17 bomb bays had just the space needed to fit the 6x1000lbs, nothing left for more) and how many of the crewmen were left at ground with all their MGs and ammo   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

AH features the most common load for the combat B17s in WWII, 6000 lbs of bombs.

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-03-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Karnak on May 03, 2001, 05:27:00 PM

RAM and the others are correct.  Speed is VERY important to bombers, thats why the Mosquito and Ar234 are so nice.  Speed is good.  Durability is nice too.  As a fair compromise between the two we should all demand the B-36. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Fishu on May 03, 2001, 08:26:00 PM

 

Quote

Originally posted by Jack55:
This site gives a 20,000 LB bomb load for a B-17G. Looks like AH has short changed the fortress.
 http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/history/boeing/b17.html (http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/history/boeing/b17.html)

After you look into the bombbay.. you'll realise how small it is.
Try fit that 20000lb in there  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Jack55 on May 04, 2001, 08:29:00 PM

I look at the wings and see room for all kinds of junk.
 http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/b17-017.jpg (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/b17-017.jpg)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 04, 2001, 08:37:00 PM

I knew USA continued to develope V-1 as a battlefield missile, Maybe those are them ?

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 04, 2001, 08:43:00 PM

Yep: http://www.spaceline.org/history/6.html (http://www.spaceline.org/history/6.html)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Nimits on May 10, 2001, 07:13:00 PM

I am  quire curious why everyone thinks the LW needs to have a heavy bomber in this game. In reality, it seems that nations should be represented with the aircraft for whic they are known, and that were widely used.

In otherwords, the LW was armed primarily with fighters and tac bombers. In this field, it was the best in the world in the early war, and maintained technical equality with the Allies throughout the war. Yet in the area of heavy or medium bombers, they were woefully inadaquate, the JU-88 being the best one that was used in large numbers. If you all want more Axis bombers, stick to the ones that were used, such as the He-111, or the JU-87 (especially the tank-busters).

It seems to me that some people are trying to manufacture something hat did not exist. The LW was not a bomber force like the US, Britain, and USSR, and I do not believe it should be represented as such. Instead, include those fighters and tactical bombers for which it was famous. While I might understand a case to include the He-177 as an aircraft without alot of perk points, but it seems that it would be better to first be sure that those aircraft, both Allied and Axis, which are more representative of their respective nations are included first. THus, it would seem Mosquitoes and B-24s would be better choices for bomber aircraft than any rare LW bomber.

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Karnak on May 10, 2001, 07:33:00 PM

Nimits,

Its a pissing contest.

"Ours" are better, so "they" complain.

If it were the other way around, say the Allies just had the Wellington B.X and the Germans had an He177, Do217 and the Japanese had an H8K2 "Emily" and B6N.  The Allied fans would be squeaking and moaning just like the Axis fans are now.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 10, 2001, 08:11:00 PM

IMHO RAF was known for their Hurricanes and Lancasters so please remove Tempest and Spit from AH.
Also Yanks dont need B-17/B-26 because only bomber I know from states is Bolo.
Hmm it looks like I don't know toejam doesn't it   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Should this be the way people are selecting new planes to AH? Because how I feel?


Small info-pack just for you Nimits:
1161 He-177 Greifs were produced + 8 prototypes and most of them were in service in eastern front and some were bombing London. So it really saw service FYI.

Edit:
Rare bomber with more than 1000 produced?
LOL we got another clown here.

[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-10-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Glasses on May 11, 2001, 08:17:00 AM

Or just give the 190F8 the full load out it carried including 2 underwing fuel tanks!

------------------
Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
9./Jg54
 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/squads/approved/kirin.gif)  
Besser tot als rot!



[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 05-11-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: juzz on May 11, 2001, 08:44:00 AM

"Rare bomber with more than 1000 produced?
"

B-17: 12,000+
B-24: 18,000+
B-29: 2,000+
Wellington: 11,000+
Lancaster: 7,000+
Pe-2: 10,000+
He 111: 11,000+
Ju 88A: 7,000+

Maybe not rare - but maybe there were some other, more common bombers in WW2 too.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: -=Silo=- on May 11, 2001, 09:04:00 AM

 

Quote

Originally posted by Nimits:
I am  quire curious why everyone thinks the LW needs to have a heavy bomber in this game. In reality, it seems that nations should be represented with the aircraft for whic they are known, and that were widely used.

In otherwords, the LW was armed primarily with fighters and tac bombers. In this field, it was the best in the world in the early war, and maintained technical equality with the Allies throughout the war. Yet in the area of heavy or medium bombers, they were woefully inadaquate, the JU-88 being the best one that was used in large numbers. If you all want more Axis bombers, stick to the ones that were used, such as the He-111, or the JU-87 (especially the tank-busters).

It seems to me that some people are trying to manufacture something hat did not exist. The LW was not a bomber force like the US, Britain, and USSR, and I do not believe it should be represented as such. Instead, include those fighters and tactical bombers for which it was famous. While I might understand a case to include the He-177 as an aircraft without alot of perk points, but it seems that it would be better to first be sure that those aircraft, both Allied and Axis, which are more representative of their respective nations are included first. THus, it would seem Mosquitoes and B-24s would be better choices for bomber aircraft than any rare LW bomber.

If you stop and think about it, a B-24 is not that much different from a B-17, is it? Sure it carries more lbs of bombs but they are for all intents and purposes roughly the same.

Not only would adding Axis 4 engined and two engines be interesting, they bring to the table more interesting OPTIONS to work with.

HE-177 for instance would sling Guided Missiles and Radio control bombs! Imagine what an Anti Shipping A/C this could be! The bloody thing could even dive bomb!

H8K2 , a Patrol Bomber floatplane that could be sortied from Ports, and was equipped with a Ship search radar as well as twin torps and very nice bomb loadouts as well. Think about this, surface search radar! A craft which could locate fleets and attack of vector other fighters to attack!


I really think this would add some nice flavor to the game and get away from the same old, same old. They would be interesting planes that bomber pilots would get a real kick out of to fly as well. Can ANY Allied bomber fill the above roles with accompanying weapons systems? I doubt it.

Get out the Allied rut in thinking and bring more options!

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: hazed- on May 18, 2001, 11:31:00 AM

Ive got so say although the Axis had these wonder weapons they were very unreliable(wire control) and sometimes rarely used(Komet etc) and this should be remembered.

BUT this is NO reason not to introduce them.Let us try them and then decide.
The way i see it allies had the numbers with sometimes average sometimes fantastic equiptment.
Germany inreasingly relied on technology to try to even the playing field as numbers were well against them.most of the weapons developed were not suitable or were so advanced they ran out of time before they were used.
In any game the LW should reflect this i think.Allied stuff is often solid and built for the job with no fancy extras.The axis had few planes with sometimes unbeleivable gadgets bristleing on them!     (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Often this overloaded the airframes and degraded performance terribly but crazy hitler insisted on their use none the less.
They tried airial bombing, rockets, 6 barreled 20mm cannons thats fired up or down in a shotgun pattern triggered by photoelectric cells, ju88s with obliquely fireing guns, flak cannons in ju88s, even  chemical clouds released to cover the screens of the bombers.Many were absolutely useless but still they WERE used.
Axis's main weapons,vehicles or threats were the secret weapons.
There should be that element of fear of what they will come up with next shouldnt there?     (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Imagine how that pilot felt when he saw the first jet with huge cannons firing at him!
Im all for a fairly distributed planeset among different countries but i do think LW's set ,whilst quite numerous dont really reflect the diversity of their arsenal of equiptment.
As i see AH at the moment the Allied aircraft seem to get the planes that were developed after the planes the Axis get.
Allies get p51d and a year later axis get the dora.allies have one of the very late b17s and b26 and axis get a ju88A4 which is one of the first varients.Not saying im ungratefull! I love the ju88 and use it often despite its unsuitability to the MA planes everywhere type enviroment.I just think the next axis introduction should be a fairly substantial one to reflect the shock the LW must have caused each time the stakes were upped.
 

------------------
Hazed
9./JG54

btw I am bitterly opposed to nazism or anything like it.I dont idealise the Nazi regeigm so please dont attack with namecalling etc   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

If the devil drove a porsche would you hate the car?



[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-18-2001).]

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Lephturn on May 18, 2001, 02:34:00 PM

Yep, the Axis powers need a good bomber.  Axis does not mean LW.  They LW have had a pile of planes in the last couple of versions.  methings a Japanese or Italian BUFF is long overdue.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 18, 2001, 06:44:00 PM

If it can carry +3000kg bombs, have speed +450kmh and have a decent defensive armament it's welcome IMO. If not you can fly it.

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 18, 2001, 07:10:00 PM

 

Quote

Im all for a fairly distributed planeset among different countries but i do think LW's set ,whilst quite numerous dont really reflect the diversity of their arsenal of equiptment.

You talk as if AH is a done deal, as if all the planesets are fleshed out and the only thing missing are the barely used Axis weapons. How can this be true if you look at the Japanese, Russian and Italian planesets?

 

Quote

As i see AH at the moment the Allied aircraft seem to get the planes that were developed after the planes the Axis get.

Ta-152, Arado, Dora all late war planes and you still complain?

You like the late-war, rare and barely used stuff in this thread, but in another recent thread you said a categorical 'no' to the prospect of the Allies getting the same.

 

Quote

Allies get p51d and a year later axis get the dora.allies have one of the very late b17s and b26 and axis get a ju88A4 which is one of the first varients.

A convenient choice of examples without mentioning the Ta-152 or Arado.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

 

Quote

I just think the next axis introduction should be a fairly substantial one to reflect the shock the LW must have caused each time the stakes were upped.

'Substantial' in what way? Number of LW plane models introduced? You had one release virtually devoted to LW machines, I think it would be more fair to concetrate on plane-sets other than the LW or US.

Staga wrote:

 

Quote

LOL we got another clown here.

I thought Nimits post had nothing in it which deserved that kind of response. It was measured and articulate, to me. Or is it because he doesn't happen to share your opinion?

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Staga on May 18, 2001, 07:37:00 PM

Dowding have you noticed two out of three planes you mentioned are perk-planes ?

Guess I should cancel my sub and start hosting my own H2H game to fly those late-war planes...


Dowding his post looked like he didn't knew facts about He-177 thought he still was capable to tell that LW should stick in planes like He-111 and Stuka.
For me that shows lack of knowledge about planes Germany did use in WW2. There were planes after BoB too you know...

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: hazed- on May 18, 2001, 08:39:00 PM

dowding youve got a bad habit of twisting words around and attacking havent you?
your first point is completely wrong. I have maintained in this and other posts that other countries deserve stuff first,what i was saying is what ever LW plane does come along i think it should be either the me262 or komet or something that was advanced.

second point i was talking about the fact that given the choice i would have prefered a later ju88 to match same era as allied bombers.same way i think if you introduced an italian or japanese or russian bomber THEY should also get the later versions.Just think it makes it fairer because usually they fairly equal at differing stages of the war.
you cant expect the people who love russian planes to fly a 1940 bomber in an arena of 44-45 fighters even though to be honest i love the older stuff.
What i posted ill agree does sound a little ungratefull but it wasnt intended to be.Im really thankfull for the ju88,arado and dora etc, in fact, they are sooo good i want more and more  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
sorry im greedy i admit it, but dowding stop trying to make evrything we say appear like acid pen letters eh?
Im just as keen to see the whole planeset filled out dowding.

just a quick point though:

bombers lanc 22000lbs vs ju88 6000lbs
jabo    F4/typhoon/p38/ etc 2000lb+ vs 190a8/f8 1000-1400lb

fighters as you say allies or LW cant really complain  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) so an italian or japanese or russian great choices.

<G>

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 19, 2001, 05:13:00 AM

You still called him names for no real reason though, Staga. It wasn't as if he was insulting your parentage.

And hazed, how is anything I wrote a personal attack? Or is it just because I disagree with you?

You wrote:

 

Quote

I have maintained in this and other posts that other countries deserve stuff first

In another thread you wrote:

 

Quote

no more late barely used planes please.

p51h? bearcat? p80 shooting star etc? wtf? this is a world war 2 sim right?

id rather see the B24 liberator,brewster buffulo,SBD-6

I'm not twisting your words, you wrote them.

 

Quote

but dowding stop trying to make evrything we say appear like acid pen letters eh?

Eh? I answered your points. That is all. If you don't want people to answer them, then why bother posting? And what is the 'we' you are referring to?

And there are plenty of LW aircraft that should be here alongside the rare stuff. The Stuka (any version) would get my vote.

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: hazed- on May 19, 2001, 01:22:00 PM

There you go again dowding!
nicely quoting out of context.
that was a completely different subject about the fact that p80's etc (that never saw action) should be included before stuff that actually flew.
This was a post discussing whether LW could have a later mid-large sized bomber Dowding,so the "WE" i refered to was those that would like to see a later bomber.
I agree the russian or japanese should get one first but THAT WAS NOT MY POINT. i was talking about what id like to see WHENEVER it comes ok?
You really are quite annoying dowding.

And to clarify:

I think LW should get one of their later designed bombers next(ju188? he177?)before any older type(apart from as you say the stuka because its well liked).My only reason is LW could do with a greater payload for base attacks
"OR"
A later version Jabo type (410 preferably,me110 ok even) so we can do a little more damage with smaller numbers.

This has nothing to do with demands for LW stuff first, dowding, and i still agree it would be fair if russian or japs or even italians get a bomber first.Im just trying to express my enthusiasm for future LW possibilities.You have your favourites right? we all do.

Dowding, whether you see it or not, you attacked what i said you didnt just disagree.
I stand by the points i have made if they are read in context and not 'into'.



------------------
Hazed
9./JG54

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: Dowding on May 19, 2001, 05:45:00 PM

The Bearcat was given to combat ready units before the war ended, so it is technically a combatant - the same can be said for the P-51H. I don't see why these shouldn't be added as 'what if' high value perk planes, like similar LW types.

 

Quote

You really are quite annoying dowding.

It's a shame you didn't want to keep it friendly. I don't see the point of continuing any discussion - you've already lost the argument.

Title: Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.
Post by: hazed- on May 19, 2001, 07:21:00 PM

i wasnt aware there was an arguement dowding just you trying to put your own meanings into statements i made which were not meant the way you claim.Why dont you do me a favour and ignore any posts i make.Id rather not hear your opinion thanks.Even if i was JUST asking for LW constantly so what? who are you the fair planeset police? go away   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)


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Hazed
9./JG54



[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-19-2001).]