Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: BaldEagl on June 23, 2009, 01:19:58 AM
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I know this has been discussed before but the more I think about it the more I like it. There should be player launched and controlled ships in the game. I'm thinking that destroyer escorts, destroyers and possibly even light cruisers and escort carriers should be implemented.
Here's how I see them working; A new scoring and perk category is developed for naval warfare with base scoring provided by the free PT boat. The ships either cost perks or have ENY values based on displacement and guns. They are single manned by the player who launches them and the player has the ability to jump guns just as they would in a GV or bomber. Appropriate guns (AA or heavy guns) all converge like bomber guns do now. Spawn points would be either at a port or special ship spawns in the middle of ocean areas. If escort carriers were implemented then I think that the number of allowable aircraft from any single CVL should be limited to maybe the commander player and one or two others.
I think that it would be cool for players to form ad-hoc fleets or to rendevous with existing fleets to provide support. Maybe there's a downside I haven't thought of but IMO I just see it being the basis of more fights and a fun new way to play the game.
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I like this idea it would add another dimention to the game. +1
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:huh
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Swell idea. Hey I LIKE say swell....
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Fubuki class destroyer! Hell yes :aok
6x5inch Dual purpose main guns..
Lots of AA guns, and reloadable longlance 24inch Torps...
Spawn like a PTboat... Helm control, Main gun and AAgun
director positions (all guns slaved to master gun)..
That would work well for LVT escort, close to shore...
Shelling town, killing GVs, Providing AAcover and smoke screens!
Fubuki would be a great foil to the Fletchers we have in (http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/Fubuki.jpg)
the CV groups.. Besides they look sexy too!
Tone, or Chikuma, would work as well... 8x8inch, and a flight deck to boot!!!
Sorry, don't mean to harp.. But the IJN had some of the coolest ships...
(Ah finally got copy paste to work... First photo on this BB.. COOOL, lol!)
RC
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the downside is that ships only travel at 35mph. enjoy your voyage :salute
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:aok
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Lose the VT proximity fuzed shells and it's not a bad idea. Otherwise it's
yet another request for easy mode from a lazy gamer.
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I like the idea! But let's think about it for a minute....
Pros:
- Gives us another way to kill each other! :rock
- Adds a strategic and tactical aspect currently not available to us. Ships would then be able to pop up to harass the enemy in more unexpected places.
- Would be able to enhance the main task forces with more ships
- Would allow ships to maneuver more realistically and independently.
- Did I mention it would give us another way to kill each other? :rock
Cons:
- I dont think CVE's should be "player spawnable". The main reason is, I can see a team forming a task force of 20 of them and rolling over just about any oceanside base. Unless there is a limit as to how many could be on the map at once, but then that opens up a whole new can of worms. The "moving bases" we have as CV's now should remain the main focus of the naval task force.
- Size of the ships available should be limited. While there is currently no limit to the number of planes that a team (nation) can produce in the game, it isnt all that realistic to allow any number of BB's or CA's rolling out of the shipyards. They are very cost prohibitive, and a valued strategic asset. So... IMO, player spawned ships should be limited to DD's, DE's, Frigates, and Corvettes. These ships were often sent out alone, or in small groups to perform a specific mission, or go out on patrol, or to protect the coastline from attack.
- In order to do this, I would think that the ENTIRE naval system would need to be redone. Task groups would need to be broken down into different types (Carrier, Amphibious, Battle) and each type would need new and more role specific ships and abilities (troopships etc).
- TIME... It would take forever to get anywhere in game terms. Since this is a "real time" combat sim, there is no way to use time compression to speed the ships to their destination, cutting out hours of boredom (which in real life would have been spent doing PMS, playing cards, and peeling potatoes). Yes, you could have new spawn points added which would cut this time down... but if you think heavy bomber missions can be long now.... just try covering 1/2 that distance in a ship. Not many would sit around and do nothing while there are fights going on all over the map... just so in 45 minutes their ship can get to where they want it, fight for 10 minutes (maybe) and be sunk... Only to have to respawn and do it all over again.
So... as much as I like the idea... I think the better solution is to have more varied and different types of "fixed" task groups. If it happens at all... give the improved TG's evasive maneuvering options. Give them the ability to vary their formation. Give them the ability to change speed. Give ships the capacity to take more specific damage. Bring in troop ships, merchants, escorts, CVE's (in their own fixed and number task groups). Add DD squadrons... which operate independently of the main TG's.
Now... to integrate your idea into this, each ship in ANY type of task group could be independently controlled by a player in the manner you are suggesting. But... instead of using overall rank to determine who can "bump" someone out of the skippers seat, or hold onto it... make a new scoring category, as you suggested, which would be used to determine that. Afterall, someone who has an awesome rank as a pilot or tank driver, doesn't necessarily have the skills to effectively command a ship at sea... without someone who can measurably do it better saying "Get the hell out of my chair!"
A ship that is being controlled by a player can move as it wishes. Change speed, course, and can have a second player "join" it just like bombers do now. It should also be able to be "run aground" just like a PT boat can... but farther away from the shore... not right on the beach. Once the player gives command of the ship back to the AI, it makes the shortest course back to join formation with its task group. Or... if it is too far out of range, it would sink... just like bomber drones do of they get too far away. So in order to "land kills" in a ship, you would need to be within radar range of the capitol ship in the task group it started in. The type of capitol ship for the task group would depend on its type. CV's for a carrier task group, Troopship for an amphib task group, BB or CA for a Battle Group, etc.
Oh... and once a ship in a task group is sunk... ITS SUNK! You dont get it back until the ENTIRE TG resets. This will make ships much more valuable to the entire team. Even if you perk the ships, they have no TEAM value if you can just spend your own points and "reup" in one. But... if you get a ship sunk by doing something foolish, and you dont know when you will ever get it back... now you have the wrath of your teammates to deal with.
This would eliminate the need for new spawn points, long voyages, and ships being scattered all over the map with no overall strategic purpose. Let the AI control the TG (with occasional course adjustments as they are now) until its time to get into the fight. Then... skippers can jump into their ships, and "Fire when ready Gridley!"
So... as I said... I love the idea of controllable ships. I just think they need to be worked into a framework that is closer to what we have now. After all, the main focus of the game is AIRCRAFT. Tanks, ships, and troops have been added, but they are to interact with the aircraft in combat. GV's function the same as aircraft do in the game, but look at how many are available compared to planes.
Great idea BaldEagl. But let's make the wheel we already have better... no need to reinvent it.
(EDIT) My ideas evolved as I was writing this... incorporating more of BaldEagl's idea into a workable solution... at least, a workable solution as I see it.
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I think some ppl are afraid to upset the standard game Equation...
But that standard equation is becoming a bit of a drag for me...
Too predictable, same'o same'o... Every time, LOL!!!
Time is long past, for a new evolution of gameplay...
This would be one of several ways to get it!!! Without changing TOO MUCH!!!
As soon as the first tank, killed another tank, that "Air Combat Simulation" was
OUT THE DOOR.... LOL!!! That horse is LONG GONE, Too late to get it back now!!!
RC
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+1 To more cool toys in AH! ME LIKEY! :D
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awesome idea :rock
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I think some ppl are afraid to upset the standard game Equation...
But that standard equation is becoming a bit of a drag for me...
Too predictable, same'o same'o... Every time, LOL!!!
Time is long past, for a new evolution of gameplay...
This would be one of several ways to get it!!! Without changing TOO MUCH!!!
RC
Hey... if it can be worked into the game without upsetting the balance of gameplay... and keeping it realistic, I think that's fine. I just started playing AH2 a few months ago, and just started reading and posting here even more recently... so none of it is "same'o same'o" to me yet :) Im still learning the skills I need for this one. Just trying to think of a way that the idea can be brought into the game easily, relatively quickly, and without HTC needing to hire a whole team to work on it. Not afraid to upset anything... its a video game :D
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Great idea, +1.
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The fastest easiest way to at least introduce this would be to work with our existing DD's. There would be nothing that needed to be modeled and they would just need to be coded. I'm guessing the current PT boat code could be modified slightly to make this work with minimal effort. The scoring and stat code is already written too and would just need to be modified for this enhancement. At least that would be a start and the idea could be expanded upon over time.
AKP I like a lot of your ideas. I hadn't fully flushed this out and maybe there's a middle ground or combination of ideas that will produce the best results.
I thought about the CVE's and the ability to create a massive fleet so that's why I thought of limiting them to 1-2, maybe 3 fighters each. That way only the most massive squads or biggest missions would be able to create a steamroller but I also left the option to keep them out of the mix for that very reason. Also, with half the fight deck it would be unlikely that anyone could up off of one with a seriously heavy ord loadout.
Regardless, I still don't see a huge downside and if it just started with the easiest implementation then at least we get the ball rolling.
C'mon HT, you've brought us the air game and he ground game. Bring the last element into play in a way that matches what you've already done in the other areas.
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Welcome to the game AKP and BB too, hope ya stay for awhile...
Take no offense, none was intended!
Just adding a DD as an alternative to a flakey little PTboat, would be wonderful...
Spawn from CVgroup, for defence, or LVT escort.. Or spawn from normal PT spawn
to attack fleets... Raid enemy towns and bases from spawns, the way GVs do now...
I can visualize some awesome Head v Head fights
between Destroyer Squadrons...
Fast, manuverable.. Would be nice if they acted correctly in the water,
rising and falling, bobbing, Heeling over in hard turns...
Remember DDs had virtually NO ARMOR, other than their Bulk of steel..
They would be vulnerable to tank guns, and soft for Shore batt....
So they wouldn't be some kind of "MONSTER WEAPON"... LOL!!
RC
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Ok... you have a point BaldEgl and RipChord. Start with DD's, use the PTs as a framework and go from there. Bring them in one at a time, work out the bugs, and build the naval force up over time.
Yes, its going to take a mixture of ideas and taking what we have now, and what we want, to get where we need to go with the naval end of it.
Im ALL FOR more ships and ship control... Navy Vet here! And if it means I get to sink one of these, BOOYAH!
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l273/woosle_2006/Bishmark.jpg)
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Welcome to the game AKP and BB too, hope ya stay for awhile...
Take no offense, none was intended!
None taken... and thanks :salute
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:aok :aok :aok AWESOME PIC!!!
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I was just thinking about this yesterday. Guess great minds think alike. ;)
+1! :aok
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It would be cool if the DD's got 10 torps too, shot out of the launchers. Could do something like the USS Johnston to a fleet. :rock
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To my knowlege, Fletcher had 2x4tube launchers on the centerline, top of deckhouse...
NonReloadable...
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Love your sig RC...
"Well Cmdr Eddington, looks like we have ourselves a war..."
"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"
In Harms Way... John Wayne, Kirk Douglas, Carroll O'Connor, Burgess Meredith... just to name a few. GREAT MOVIE!
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Yep, GREAT movie!!! Only the best!!!
Too bad Hollywood can't combine CG magic of these days,
with the Awesome acting of the golden years...
But the models in that movie climax were pretty cool too.. To me anyway!
:salute RC
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Type: Destroyer Escort (DE)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l273/woosle_2006/0605105.jpg)
Source: http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/051.htm
Class: Buckley
Type: TE (turbine-electric drive, 3" (76mm) guns)
Displacement: 1,400 tons (std) 1,740 tons (full)
Dimensions: 306' (oa), 300' (wl) x 36' 9" x 13' 6" (max)
Armament: 3-3" (76mm) /50 Mk22 (1x3), 1-1.1"/75 Mk2 quad AA (4x1), 8 x 20mm Mk 4 AA, 3 x 21" Mk15 Torpedo Tubes (3x1),
1 Hedgehog Projector Mk10 (144 rounds), 8 Mk6 depth charge projectors, 2 Mk9 depth charge tracks (for attacking the subs we dont have :D)
Machinery: 2 "D" Express boilers, G.E. turbines with electric drive, 12000 shp, 2 screws
Speed: 24 knots
Range: 4,940 nm @ 12 knots
Crew: 15 officers / 198 enlisted
Ok... I could deal with this (or something like it) as a start!
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+1 :aok
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sounds like a great idea. and for the people that say it would take forever and boredom to get anywhere. That's the type of players that would play the role of this. We don't need every newb to jump in a battleship to devastate a shore base but only the elite that take there time to take an entire shore of bases for there squad.
:aok
:aok
:rock
:salute
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+1 would love to see this added to the game.
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This is a great idea! Maybe have CVE groups that spawn at ports as well with the main CV groups. And have these CVE groups the ability to spawn the Destroyer Escorts and such? All the while we would not be able to spawn our ships from the CV groups though.... It would give us a rather interesting reason to have CVE's and to protect them. heh
But we would have to say limit the AA to 40's and 20's please. I dont wana see many mobile flak boats owning the shore. heh
We must expand on this great idea.
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Can you imagine "wolfpacks" of destroyers steaming to a port, knocking down the AA, and hanger. Then calling for Cap and troops?
3 - 6 destroyers in loose formation, killable, but at a price.
Awesome idea in my opinion and one thats long overdue.
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This is a great idea! Maybe have CVE groups that spawn at ports as well with the main CV groups. And have these CVE groups the ability to spawn the Destroyer Escorts and such? All the while we would not be able to spawn our ships from the CV groups though.... It would give us a rather interesting reason to have CVE's and to protect them. heh
But we would have to say limit the AA to 40's and 20's please. I dont wana see many mobile flak boats owning the shore. heh
We must expand on this great idea.
Hmmm.... not sure about them spawning from a task group of any kind. Picture this. You are in your TBM, or even a low level bomber making your attack run on the CVE. All of a sudden... out of the sea.... rises at 300' long destroyer right in front of you!!!! BLAM! You crash right into the side of it!
It's kindof "Flying Dutchman-esque" if ya ask me. :O
Seriously though... I can buy a tank popping up suddenly where there wasnt one before. Hey... It could have popped out from behind a rock, or a shrubbery :devil But a destroyer popping up out of nowhere? Let them pop up out of shipyards in the ports.
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Might be an overall idea worth HTC's time to play with. :aok
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AKP, I understand your point about the Dutchman'esq deal... But GV's already do it...
And if the DD's would spawn, say 400yds astern of the carrier, and everybody knows it...
It shouldn't be a prob... That would leave your broadside torp drop open too...
And if a player wanted to position his DD to block torps? I say, :salute for takin a hit for the team!!!
Hmmm, just thinkin, I haven't run a low level buff run on a carrier in years...(since I was new)
Pure suicide!!! If the boat has gunners, ya never even get close!!! Why give'em freebies...?
As far as the Ack platform deal... US DD's were very good at that!!! Just check some of the
fights by DD's against Kamikazi planes, on the Radar picket line N of Okinawa... Absolutely heroic!
They would work very well for escorting LVT's close to shore... NO MORE LVT straffing freebies!!!
They were used for this very purpose many times!!! On Omaha Beach, things were stalled, until
2 DD's cruised up close, and pinpoint shelled German positions.... Then things finally broke loose!
There are numerous other examples as well...
Besides, if ya have a gaggle of DD's movin in on your CVgroup, I'd want some DD's to fight them off..
Baldy is right, we'd do just fine w the DD's in game already.. They have everything needed, and
less work for the makers..
There are so many +'s to this idea.. It'd be great!
Oh yeah, another idea.. PTboats carrying troops, drop'em at the shoreline..
RC
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AKP, I understand your point about the Dutchman'esq deal... But GV's already do it...
And if the DD's would spawn, say 400yds astern of the carrier, and everybody knows it...
It shouldn't be a prob... That would leave your broadside torp drop open too...
And if a player wanted to position his DD to block torps? I say, :salute for takin a hit for the team!!!
A fixed spawn point might not be too bad then...
Hmmm, just thinkin, I haven't run a low level buff run on a carrier in years...(since I was new)
Pure suicide!!! If the boat has gunners, ya never even get close!!! Why give'em freebies...?
Hehe... I do it all the time in the 25H. I dont always make it out, but I almost always make it in. <100' off the deck, 75mm cannon. I can score 2 or 3 hits before I have to start worrying about dodging flak. But when I do it I just have to make sure I have my mae west ready to go! I have about a 50/50 ratio on making it out after 1 low level run. Plane is missing a lot of parts if I get back though, so I am sure it really annoys my ground crews.
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:O SHIPS that I could drive!!! Wow, that would be cool. I would not mind spawning from a port and then setting a heading, going AFK to make dinner and coming back just in time to be in the fight. Of course, spawning in close would be better when I don't have to be AFK for a long period. I like, I like...HTC do this, NOW!!
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This is my game PC desktop...
Says it all for me... A group of Kickazz ships, sliding silently thru a stormy night..
"Give me a fast ship, for I intend to go in harms way!!!"
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/Tone.jpg)
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The minute you spelled kickass with two z's you killed every iota of interest I once had in this concept.
Besides, look at it this way.
LCA. With DD's.
Scared yet?
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BE...here's something for you to think about...if a member of a squad spawns the CVE...the squad is able to up from it, but noone else. If the player doesn't have a squad, then only a select number of people can up from it (2-3?) The commander can also close the deck.
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If everyone so far agrees on starting with the existing DD's, creating a new scoring/stat category and using bomber type gun convergence then the biggest issue at this point is how/where to spawn. I think a port should always be an option but I like the idea of spawning at least somewhere near an existing task force too. What if you were able to spawn at the outer edge of a task force radar ring choosing N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W or NW and it would place you at that location on the outer edge. Of course, if that location is on land or too close to shore that option would have to be closed so there would be a bit of coding to be done to make that happen. Imagine setting up a defensive ring of DD's around your CV task force.
I'm now less inclined to have mid ocean spawns as that would likely lead to DD/PT spawn camping.
I'm glad to hear that there's support for the idea. Thanks to all who have made suggestions.
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BE...here's something for you to think about...if a member of a squad spawns the CVE...the squad is able to up from it, but noone else. If the player doesn't have a squad, then only a select number of people can up from it (2-3?) The commander can also close the deck.
Or how about a CVE can be upped for a perk price. But only have it allow squad members to use?
Or allow anyone to up from the CVE but you have to join the CVE driver first?
And of course CVE's would only carry the light fighters and Bombers I.E. F4F-4 and a B5N, etc.
Edit: But of course the CVE driver could close the flight deck or open it.
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I was just doing some reading and it seems that the CVL's were built on cruiser hulls and were able to keep up with the task forces where the CVE's were build on much thinner merchant hulls and were much slower.
Regardless, the CVE/CVL's could carry 20-30 aircraft whereas the CV's could carry 80-90.
If in a typical AH CV fight 10-15 guys are upping off the CV (just a guess) then a CVE/CVL should only allow 1/4-1/3 that of a typical CV in-game, or 2-5 aircraft max assuming my 10-15 number is correct. There also needs to be a limitation to prevent these things from being everywhere thus my initial thoughts of 2-3 aircraft.
The CVE/CVL's are also much more lightly defended than the CV's, so would need aircraft protection to stay in-play. This, along with CVE/CVL ord limitations for fighters, somewhat offsets the ability to create too much havok around the arena.
I also think that if someone ups a CVE/CVL then the commander should not be allowed to fly. He needs to stay with and command the ship and man the guns.
As far as who gets to fly off one I would think it should be by request/accept or invite/accept up to the limit (lets just say 3 for now) of available aircraft.
A couple of other intersting things could be done with this; the commander could allow only specific aircraft to be used for instance. He could accept or decline a request to land from someone not based off his ship which may have ramifications to those already flying off of it (inability to land or an imposed time delay to land for instance).
Anyway, this is getting much too complicated for an initial implementation but I could really see this aspect of the game developed in the future and I'd bet a lot of people would have a lot of fun with it.
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Now perk wise how would it work for the ship commander with the aircraft and such? and would LVT's be able to be launched from these CVE's/L's?
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My only question is do the cve/cvl's have enough length for our fighters to take off? Or would a "catapult" have to be coded in?
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My only question is do the cve/cvl's have enough length for our fighters to take off? Or would a "catapult" have to be coded in?
The flight decks are about half the length of a CV so I suspect only the lighter fighters would be able to get off and even they may "dip" off the end of the flight deck.
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The game does need some new ideas! This ain't bad.
:aok
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The flight decks are about half the length of a CV so I suspect only the lighter fighters would be able to get off and even they may "dip" off the end of the flight deck.
dont forget the light bombers. these CV's would also help promote the use of such aircraft.
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HERE IS IS! HERE IT IS!
For those who were blind. :O
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I just had to bump this idea because, well, I think it's such a good one.
Last week I was on a CV that got sunk. Finally it ended up just being me with two destroyers left. I was cruising along between multiple PT spawns and some guy kept upping LVT's to try to finish the destroyers off. It was fun and while it was happening I was thinking about this wish and how it would be really great to be able to have my own destroyer to play with on occasion.
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I'll bump it again, because it IS a good idea!
This is some action that could develop from it...
USS Laffey, Buchanon class DD, along with 3 other DD's, passed thru the Japanese Bombardment force off Guadalcanal, (0004hrs Friday the 13th).. Both sides were blundering around in the dark, thru intermittent hard rain squalls, knowing the other was there.. But American inexperience w their radar, (and reflections from the rain squalls), couldn't fix the Japanese position.. When the Japs finally turned on their searchlights, USS Laffey was passing the bow of Kirishima at (witnesses say at 50ft range!!!)..
Laffey launched torps, and raked Hiei with 5in fire, killing the commanding Jap admiral and many of his staff on the bridge! Then was hit by a 14inch shell, and a 24in torp... Her stern magazine exploded, blowing off the after 1/3 of the ship...
Another "Hero ship" of the US Navy!!!
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/USSLaffeyvsKirishimapointblank.jpg)