Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: dosequis on July 13, 2000, 03:31:00 PM
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I don't know how Pyro is going to implement a Perk system, it seems counterproductive to give good K/D ratios better planes. I think it should be based on bases captured, or ordinance dropped on target.
Anyhow, here are my ideas:
After closing X Bases, or so many pounds of ord dropped you get "chips" which you can redeem for rides in the following Ubers:
Spit XIV
Fw-190D
F8 Bearcat
Me 262
You should also get a "chip" every time you kill a building or ack in a Panzer, or capture a base in a M3. You need to avoid things like chips for killing other players, only strat targets of the enemy. Because otherwise people will open accounts just to get slammed down so they can build up other accounts. By making chips only earnable by taking or destroying enemy bases, you push the strat model while giving room for the planes that everyone really wants.
In keeping with the Aces High theme, Poker Chips could be used.
XX
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How about people who prefer to fly only fighters? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
mx22
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How about 4-5 diff arenas with diff specs, so we can all stop crying about who gets what when.Fly the arena you prefer!!!!
oh....ya too simple.
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no
a nu pilot starts out in the earlier types, as he advances and SURVIVES, he gets more options in what AC he can use ....if the pilot dies or is captured, he starts over again in regards to selection of plane types...but his score remains thruout the TOD.
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Originally posted by dosequis:
Fw-190D
never, unless you perk P51D.
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What the.. Fw190D-9 is not anything unusually uber, it is the germans answer for P-51!
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Heh, Dora is not perk? Then dont forget to bring on SpitXIV with it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
Originally posted by Fishu:
What the.. Fw190D-9 is not anything unusually uber, it is the germans answer for P-51!
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Whats with you Nancy Spit Boys, the XIV is too good, it outclasses everything in the game, get it thru your head. Its fine if its perk, but D9 is in no way uber or deserves to be perk.
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Well, Nath, I suppose I would settle for a thread in which all of the LW fans admit that somebody else, the RAF in this case, had 'em licked as far as having the best fighter goes. If all of the LW fans state that the Spitfire MkXIV is more powerful/better at killing other fighters than anything the Luftwaffe had in 1944 I will promise to never ask for the Spitfire MkXIV again.
The problem is that many LW fans claim that the Fw190D-9 owns the Spitfire MkXIV anytime they meet on even terms. But despite that, they still want the Fw190D-9 as a free choice and the Spitfire MkXIV to either never be added or as a perk plane. Obviously you and RAM feel that the Spitfire MkXIV was better than the Fw190D-9, but many other LW fans do not agree with you.
I think that the Fw190D-9 should be added as a free choice aircraft for what its worth. At this point, I don't even really care if HTC adds the Fw190D-9 in 1.05 and gives the RAF a Hurricane MkI to compensate for it.
The reason I'm not interested in the Tempest MkV is because it will perform VERY much like the F4U-1C. Sice we already have an aircraft that performs like that, I don't really see the need for another.
So good luck on getting you're Fw190D-9. It'd be nice to see another aircraft in AH.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Yeah right, Tempest Mk V is like a F4U-1C. Apart from having the same guns, they don't have much else in common. Unless you think the P-51D and Fw 190A-8 are comparable too...
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BRING IN D9 AND SPIT XIV, both on same time!
but bearcat, NO!!
HABICHT
XO JG54"Gruenherz"
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The FW190D-9 a perk plane .... pleeeeeaaaaseeeeee ...........
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Why not Bearcat? Its not like it's any better than the Spitfire Mk XIV or Me 109G-10.
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Perk planes are BS. The day I can't select a plane in the set because "I don't have enough points" is the day I cancel my account.
Don't penalize me because I suck. My $29.95 is worth the same as anyone else's.
A better way to balance Gameplay would be to limit the number of planes available for all - using some sort of respawn rate.
Sour
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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 07-14-2000).]
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I don't like the idea of plane perks myself, its going to force the fights even higher, and its already to the point where I have a hard time promoting a co-alt fight the way it is, folks usually run away when you see a co-alt dot, until they can come back with more alt. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Lessen the dot visibility, and scrap plane perks IMO, just encourages more score/alt monkeys.
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Okay, a couple of things
1: I thought the perk planes were going to be given to the underdogs? The country getting gang banged or outnumbered by 4:1 in the arena? Giving Perk Planes to the guys that are already winning is just, stupid! It would kill the balance. I garuntee I'd cancel my account if they screw this up (not that they have screwed anything else up, but this would be a tripple whammie).
2: The Bearcat only belongs in "what if" 1946 scenario arenas. And not even as a Perk Plane in the MA.
I say the most uber non-perk planes should be
US: F4U-4 and -4B (Or the cooler FAA paintjob as Corsair III)
Commonwealth: Spit Mk.XIV
Soviet Union: La-7
Germany: Dora-9
Japan: Ki-84
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La7? LOL
Dora9? LOL!!!!
ok then give me a Ta152C, no perks in it.
If HT perka D9 Im out from AH, at once. And I mean: at once. I dont like the perk system itself but I admit that if we want latewar stuff we need such a system...a system that hinders the unbalancing planesand vehicles... Such planes/vehicles would be:
P47M or/and N
P51H
Ta152H or/and C
F8F
SpitfireXIV or/and XXI
Ki100
Do335
Meteor
Me262
He162
Me163
B29
TigerII
Pershing
IS-2
Ar234
etc etc etc
Why do you perk D9? because it is better than P51D?...it is better than P51 in SOME regards. SpitXIV is better than P51 in ALL regards except fuel endurance (not so big problem). and it turns like a SpitIX. is like having a stable, faster,better climber 109G10 with the turn of a spitfire. That plane is simply a MONSTER.
I agree that RAF pilots have a basically 1942 plane as SpitIX (still I think it is a 1944 spitIX). So what about a Spit VIII for you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It is faster than SpitIX but without reaching the incredible performance of SpitXIV.
So I say, if you perk D9, then perk P51D. if that isnt done then I'm out from AH at once.
<PUNT>
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-14-2000).]
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No, you missunderstand me. What I said was NONPERK Dora-9 and La7.
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What the hell does Punt mean anyway?
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Originally posted by SpyHawk:
Okay, a couple of things
1: I thought the perk planes were going to be given to the underdogs? The country getting gang banged or outnumbered by 4:1 in the arena? Giving Perk Planes to the guys that are already winning is just, stupid! It would kill the balance. I garuntee I'd cancel my account if they screw this up (not that they have screwed anything else up, but this would be a tripple whammie).
2: The Bearcat only belongs in "what if" 1946 scenario arenas. And not even as a Perk Plane in the MA.
I say the most uber non-perk planes should be
US: F4U-4 and -4B (Or the cooler FAA paintjob as Corsair III)
Commonwealth: Spit Mk.XIV
Soviet Union: La-7
Germany: Dora-9
Japan: Ki-84
1 was a notion I had that was never picked up by pyro, his scheme is you earn perk planes over the long run and then spend perk points to fly them.
2
Really just depends on how good each plane is. Probably best to just put the planes in the MA till there performance is Ironed out and then Pyro can decide if they should be perk planes. If they start perk planes it would take too long to boil down the flight models.
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Why should I settle for SpitVIII, a 1943 design, when you will be be flying late 1944 designs??? SpitXIV was introduced BEFORE Fw190D and just because it's good, it doesn't mean you should whine and not let me fly it.
Point is, if you want Dora, make sure that late war Spitfire and other countries' late war planes make it into the arena on the same basis.
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I'd settle for the Tempest and Spit VIII with 150 octane fuel.
I wouldn't be happy if the Spit XIV is the best perk plane the RAF get however, not if other perks are P51H, P47N and Ta152H. In that case the RAF would need at least Spit 21 or Fury, or better yet Spiteful.
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Hope they model the Avro Arrow too!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now what's this all aboot? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-14-2000).]
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Originally posted by mx22:
Why should I settle for SpitVIII, a 1943 design, when you will be be flying late 1944 designs??? SpitXIV was introduced BEFORE Fw190D and just because it's good, it doesn't mean you should whine and not let me fly it.
False , the reason for people wanting it perked because its TOO GOOD . Who cares if it was in service before or after D9? what its important here is that the monster would unbalance the arena. IF you want your sPitXIV ok get it and fly it against the rest of the people flying SpitXIVs. I dont mind because I wont be here to laugh at the pathetic spectacle of an one plane arena.
Point is, if you want Dora, make sure that late war Spitfire and other countries' late war planes make it into the arena on the same basis.
Ok then give me a ME262 or shut the hell up.
(BTW me262 wouldnt be half unbalancing than SpitXIV).
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-14-2000).]
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Bah, both the D9 and the spit XIV should not be perk planes, this is silly talk. They should be regular arena planes, along with the KI-84 and the Yak 3.
Perks should be like the Komet, the Ta152, The P47M, etcera. (i heard the p47m could climb almost 5000 feet/min!)
Anyways i reallly want komet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Will be fun to kill b17s rocketing straight up and raking their bellies with 30mm
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
The P47M, etcera. (i heard the p47m could climb almost 5000 feet/min!)
SURPRISE! the SPit XIV climbs better!
And turns better!
and at most altitudes is FASTER!
and accelerates better!
and keeps E better!
and zooms better!
Dunno if it dives better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) but it should be near
So you perk P47M...then why dont you perk Spit XIV?
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Ram i dont believe plane "goodness" should be a factor for perking. It should be totally up to how many were produced in wartime, and how much combat they saw. For this reason i think the 262 should also not be perk, it saw quite a lot of action. The ta152 did not see lotsa action, so it should be perked. The spit XOV was operational for more than a full year of the war, it should not be perk. The F4u-1c should be relegated to perk, less than 200 were made. But then the f4u-4 should be introduced to the general planeset if the f4u-1c is to be perked, since many f4u-4s fought in the late war in the pacific. Just because the brits made a superior fighter doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to use it.
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P47M is faster, thats what matters.
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
Ram i dont believe plane "goodness" should be a factor for perking.
Then I cant agree with your point of view. If the F4U4,Spitfire XIV, P47M,Me262...etc arent perked what is the use in flying a me109G2? and a Fw190A8?...why a C205? why a typhoon? why a P47D? why a P51D?...All the current planeset will be unfliable against the latewar monsters.
You say that the difference between perk planes and non perk planes should be sheer numbers. THat isnt fair...
F4U4, SpitXIV, P47m, P47n, etc etc etc...the reason because those planes were widely built is because USA and Britain had better industry last days of the war because germany had serious troubles because strategic bombing. So they could build a lot of planes of their latest models while Germany and Japan were in serious trouble to bring up planes that could fight against them A 1945 planeset done by "in service number of planes" standard then will only have Allied planes. And that is not fair.
If you dont want to perk a plane because is too good at least bring a RPS here to limit its use.That way at least I'll be able to fly in equal terms against a lot of enemy models for most of the time...
If you dont do that and you dont perk SpitXIV then MA will be Spitfire XIV arena. I wont fly in an one plane arena, Sorry but I wont do it. I currently see A LOT more of spitfires than other models, so if XIV comes this will be Spitfires High. I dont mind if it was Dora9 high as I wouldnt like to see that, but D9 isnt an unbalancing plane while SpitXIV is.
I unsed to like the current MA because there are a lot of models of planes, and each one is different. If we bring the monster here at least more than 25% people will fly it after first days (when more than 70% will do it). So you will be flying agaisnt Spitfires all day long...do you want it that way?
I dont.
I didnt like the first days of the A5 because there was a MA full of them. But after some days the dust settled and people went back to their model...or the P47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
If Spitfire XIV comes unperked here,there is no reason to fly another plane as SpitXIV is the best plane in many things, and the ones in wich it isnt are of few importance.
Right now if a newbie comes here and asks for the best plane to fly, we all say SpitIX or V to start, and there is some discussion about if P38 is better because it has no torque...we say the easiest plane to fly that can make him kill some cons...
But for the real "best plane in AH" contest there will be a lot of contenders...Yak9, P51,109G10, P38...each one has its strong points and its weak points.
If XIV comes then there will be no discussion about it because XIV will be the best hands down.It is a plane with a lot of strong points and few,and of little importance,weak points (I only can find range as one of that weak points...other would be the fragile engine...but I trade both for its speed,acceleration,climbrate...)
Spitfire XIV will be unbalancing.
Perk the unbalancing planes or put a RPS here so at least 70% of the time the planeset is balanced. Few people wants a RPS...and the SpitXIV is an unbalancing plane...so or you perk it or you change the name of this simulator to Spits High.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-14-2000).]
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OK now that you have said it that way i kind of understand you.
The question is, whether or not to include a airplane in the game is a difficult decision.. I believe that in the years through 1942 the axis had a LARGE benefit in aircraft performance.. ( I would much rather be in a emil than a spit I, a franz or a 190 compared to the spit V or kittyhawk or hurricae, i would rather be in a zeke instead of a wildcat etcera)
in the late war, however it changes. Japan and germany had to use sub standard fuel, they both had their factories bombed, were short on resources etcera. So from 1944 onward, you must expect that the allies will have better planes. Well they DID. Thats why the allies won the war. Bceuase they were on offense, and didn't have to defend their production capability. Plus hitler was an idot and wasted lots of resources on stuff like the vengance weapons etcera, making the 262 a bomber. Well, he was an idiot, plane and simple. So when it comes down to it, the allies should win late war engagements. Why do you think so few luftwaffe aces survived the war?
The problem with the spit XIV was its range, which was rather poor for attacks on germany in the time frame it was operational. By the time there were several squadrons with XIVs, there were no luftwaffe within its operation range to engage.
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Give Fariz a XIV and I'm going back to Bishland (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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OK Zigrat...I agree with what you say, but for sure not at all.
LEt see. You say that up to 1942 Germany had better planes than Britain ,and I must agree.BUT (and in this discussion the but is a BIG one) the gap between British planes and German's was always a very little one, Me109E was better that SpitI, but not by much. Me109F waa better than SpitV but NOT by much. Fw190A was a nightmare for SpitV but SpitIX made again the gap a little one until the point that in mid 1943 SpitfireIX and Fw190A5 were regarded as equals.
When latewar came Britain produced the SPitfireXIV, a plane that far outclassed any German fighter it could find (range was a problem in history, but not in MA)...the gap was immense between German fighters and Spitfire XIV's performance..Germany lasted some 8 months in delivering a plane that could close that gap with the spit and at least to level the game against the P51, the Dora-9. Still if you see the numbers, Spitfire XIV is better in all regards than D9 except rollrate and range. IN ALL REGARDS!!!...
You say that latewar stuff was better in allied side, and that was the reason because they won the war. I agree, zig, It is a sound argument. But THIS IS NOT WWII!! this is a simulator in wich you fly against other planes! so to make it an interesting simulator you have to keep the planeset levelled or you'll end flying allied latewar stuff, and more if you perk low-numbers planes as Ta152 while you dont do it with P47M or Spitfire XIV.
The fun in Aces High is the multiplane environment, you find A LOT of different planes in the air. If Spitfire XIV isnt perked then you'll be flying against Spitfires all day long...
IF you want to keep all sides level in quality (which is the ideal for me), set a high level that wont be trespassed.
P51D for me is the best plane for Main Arena right now. Put the perk level on it. For me a Fw190D9 is the equal of P51, better in some regards, worse in other regards, so let it in. Spitfire XIV is way better than both. Perk it. TempestV is better than both low in the deck but as you go higher its performance falls behind them (and not my that much). dont perk it. P47M is better at all altitudes...perk it...
And so on. Keep a balanced arena, bring newer Spitfires to put RAF level with LW ,USA, russiand and Japanese planes, but dont give ANY side a monster. Perk the monsters (all of them regardless production runs and regardless of inservice date). And keep the arena balanced.
Or you'll end killing this simulator.
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Learn some manners RAM, don't tell people to shut up.
Just because you don't want to fly SpitXIV and have such an agenda against it, it doesn't mean other share that view. I want that plane and I don't see why you should be flying your Dora and I'm stuck with older models of Spitfire.
P.S. I'm still guessing where in my post I mentioned anything about Me262.
mx22
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Originally posted by mx22:
Learn some manners RAM, don't tell people to shut up.
you tell ME that I must learn manners?...see this...
Originally posted by mx22:
Why should I settle for SpitVIII, a 1943 design, when you will be be flying late 1944 designs??? SpitXIV was introduced BEFORE Fw190D and just because it's good, it doesn't mean you should whine and not let me fly it.
you got the answer you deserved. You called me a whiner and an egoist. Who needs to leanr manners here?...
You want me to be rude?...here you go, sir...
Just because you don't want to fly SpitXIV and have such an agenda against it, it doesn't mean other share that view. I want that plane and I don't see why you should be flying your Dora and I'm stuck with older models of Spitfire.
Kid: MUM!!! I WANT THAT TOY!!!!
Mother: no, it is bad and will do bad to all the family
Kid: I DONT MIND!!! I WANT MY TOOOOOOOOOOYYYYY!!
Mother: the facts wont change even if you cry for a long time, that toy is bad for the family
Kid: BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! I WANT MY TOOOOOOOOYYY!
P.S. I'm still guessing where in my post I mentioned anything about Me262.
Who said you did?
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I know this is quite rude, but I dont mind. I am simply not on the mood to accept answers like the one you gave to me. And as you were rude towards me, then I feel in the right to be rude towards you.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-14-2000).]
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Not really true Zigrat. The XIV had the range to fly from England to the Swiss Alps and back. After D-Day, Squadrons of Spitfires, including the XIV, operated from airfields in France. The XIV saw quite a bit of combat, though not as much as the Fw190D-9, which had only to put up to find an enemy formation.
RAM, I think our disagreement comes from having a different view on the capabilities of the XIV. I think it was a good, competitive 1944 fighter. You think that it was the best WWII fighter. If it were added as a non-perk plane, and proved to be as popular and imbalancing as you fear, I would most certainly join you in efforts to get it perked. The problem right now is that we RAF fans have no competitive fighter. Last night I saw 1 Spitfire the entire time I was on, and that one was dead about 20 seconds after I saw it (not by me). I myself did not fly a Spitfire last night. I put up in a 109F, 109G-10, Fw190A-5 and A6M5b.
I don't really want the Tempest MkV yet, because it is a fast BnZ aircraft armed with 4 20mm Hispano MkV cannon. Off hand I don't know what the difference between the Hispano MkV and the Hispano MkII (that we all know and love) is. I would guess that the Hispano MkV is improved though, given the Mk#. I know that the Tempest performs differently than the F4U-1C, but regardless of the differences, they both would use the same kind of tactics: BnZing. Thus I think that adding the Tempest would be like adding a 2nd F4U-1C (it might even be more like an F4U-4C).
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Not really true Zigrat. The XIV had the range to fly from England to the Swiss Alps and back. After D-Day, Squadrons of Spitfires, including the XIV, operated from airfields in France. The XIV saw quite a bit of combat, though not as much as the Fw190D-9, which had only to put up to find an enemy formation.
RAM, I think our disagreement comes from having a different view on the capabilities of the XIV. I think it was a good, competitive 1944 fighter. You think that it was the best WWII fighter. If it were added as a non-perk plane, and proved to be as popular and imbalancing as you fear, I would most certainly join you in efforts to get it perked. The problem right now is that we RAF fans have no competitive fighter. Last night I saw 1 Spitfire the entire time I was on, and that one was dead about 20 seconds after I saw it (not by me). I myself did not fly a Spitfire last night. I put up in a 109F, 109G-10, Fw190A-5 and A6M5b.
I don't really want the Tempest MkV yet, because it is a fast BnZ aircraft armed with 4 20mm Hispano MkV cannon. Off hand I don't know what the difference between the Hispano MkV and the Hispano MkII (that we all know and love) is. I would guess that the Hispano MkV is improved though, given the Mk#. I know that the Tempest performs differently than the F4U-1C, but regardless of the differences, they both would use the same kind of tactics: BnZing. Thus I think that adding the Tempest would be like adding a 2nd F4U-1C (it might even be more like an F4U-4C).
Sisu
-Karnak
Hehe Karnak you are giving me more reasons to fear SpitXIV (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) range Up TO THE ALPS!!.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
NOw to the matter, yes I understand RAF people's point of view. You want a spitfire that is more competitive than SpitIX. and I agree with you, just go and read my messages, I say to level ALL the forces to a standard, and then perk planes over that standard. I think that Spit VIII is a better plane thant Spit XIV, and I know there were LF and HF versions of Spitfires. I say, get a good spitfire, one that can fight the other planes!...but dont get the MONSTER the SpitXIV is.
I disagree with your point of view about the tempest, I think that is quite different in many regards to Corsairs...but you love Spitfires and I understand you wanting a better spitfire (although I think that the IX we have now is quite good indeed!)
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The Hispano V was lighter than the Mk II, had a shorter barrel, lower MV and higher ROF.
Hispano Mk.II (130 g) 600 rpm 880 m/s 50 kg
Hispano Mk.V (130 g) 750 rpm 840 m/s 42 kg
I remeber Pyro saying we wouldn't see the Hispano V until the Tempest arrived, so there is hope.
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I heard that the first man to reach low Earth orbit was flying a Spitfire XIV.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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In my opinion i think the perk system would work great. Perk system= less Hos, because people woudlnt want to jepardise their score.
just my 0.02 pence
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Originally posted by Staga:
Give Fariz a XIV and I'm going back to Bishland (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Maybe Fariz would in that case come down from the space, when he has bit more speed to run with.
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PERK THE Ki-100?! WTF!!! RAM YOU IDIOT! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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apparently I was lost in the shuffle whats a perk plane? are points going to determine the pilots choice of planes? If so you had better turn off those icons because if you don't, those early warbirds are gonna be chasing them all over creation and killing them.
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hi all,
RAM, let RAF get their spit14, not perked.
but you brought up a nice thing to think about. in '44, '45 germans aircraft industrie
output was far down. but they were still able
to bring up some new planes, like D-9+ and the TANK series. oh my god, think of all the
jet designs which were ready to get into
production. like ta183, Me P1011, and the
go229 (it flew, yes it flew! but crashed due to engine failur).
but in AH, we don't have the problems. so why
not a ta152H-1&C, FW190d-XX in the air, TOGETHER with a SPTIT14+, 51H.....
but pls, only gombat prooved planes in WW2!.
so no f8f, f7f, or p80...
HABICHT
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I thought the whole point of the "perk planes" was to have the "what if" planes(and vehicles) that were never available in big numbers during WW2, available to use in AH.
The only qualification should be that the aircraft was a production model by the end of 1945. Ie: No one-off prototypes.
"Service numbers", or "use in combat" should be irrelevant qualifications, as they unfairly advantage some countries over the others.
Remember that AH is not a WW2 recreation, it is a fantasy air combat game, using WW2 era aircraft and vehicles.
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Originally posted by juzz:
I thought the whole point of the "perk planes" was to have the "what if" planes(and vehicles) that were never available in big numbers during WW2, available to use in AH.
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So you wont perk P51H? nor P47M/N? nor SpitfireMK21? nor B29? nor IS-2?...
Then change the name of the sim to "allieds high".
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Read the paragraphs below that one RAM. Ie: The third one.
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Originally posted by juzz:
Read the paragraphs below that one RAM. Ie: The third one.
Juzz that is just my point...because want it or not the 1945 planes are mainly allied and of the few axis ones the only that can be something near a problem for them will be ta152...wich was conceived as a high altitude buff interceptor,not as a fighter.
Those planes will be great if put in a perk mode, but not if you put them available for everyone.
Plus those planes will rend this planeset obsolete, and that is not good either. IMHO this is a WWII simulator, not a what-if late 1945.If you add all those planes as standard then you are moving away from WWII.
And I dont like it either.
SOrry if I didnt state it well in my previous post, But I hope to have put it clear now.
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RAM, this is how I think it should be.
Q. Which planes can be included as normal planes in AH?
A. Anything that isn't too much better than the P-51D.
Q. Which planes can be included as perk planes?
A. Anything in production by the end of 1945.
Clear?
P-51H, F8F, Me 262 Do 335 etc, would be a perk.
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Originally posted by juzz:
RAM, this is how I think it should be.
Q. Which planes can be included as normal planes in AH?
A. Anything that isn't too much better than the P-51D.
Agreed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Q. Which planes can be included as perk planes?
A. Anything in production by the end of 1945.
Clear?
P-51H, F8F, Me 262 Do 335 etc, would be a perk.
hummm...I dont thing P80 would be ok as perk plane...
of course I think just the same about Go229. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
but we agree in all the rest. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Any particular reason why you think that the P80 shouldn't be a perk plane, Ram?
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
Any particular reason why you think that the P80 shouldn't be a perk plane, Ram?
Two reasons:
1: it is american and I dont like american planes.
2:it is too uber.
(just kidding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
no, seriously, I may be wrong but AFAIK the P80 was a plane that until late september 1945 wasnt operational. And that is too late for my taste of a WWII planeset.
Of course then Go229 was scheduled for late october-november 1945 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
but, seriously I dont think that any of them belong to a WWII simulator. Its a personal opinion,nothing else.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-15-2000).]
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My understanding is that 45 P-80s were produced prior to the end of the war in the ETO and that two had been deployed to Italy for operational evaluation, but were specifically kept out of actual combat situations. That's a far cry from an aircraft that never made it past the prototype stage (Go229).
The other difference, in terms of why the P-80 could be modeled, and the Go229 probably won't, is that there is a large body of real flight test data that HTC could draw on to model the P-80. In contrast, the *prototype* for the production version of the Go229 was never even finished, so you're really mixing apples and oranges in terms of comparing the two and why they should or should not be modeled.
Flight Sims are about "what ifs" as much as they are about recreating history. IMO, that makes the P-80 a legitamite candidate for being modeled as a perk plane some day in the future (though, personally, I far prefer Prop aircraft).
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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lol, your LW guys are funny. in the 4 months
i have been reading this board, all i ever see is the LW pilots want this plane and that plane, per the allied planes but dont perk ours. if u choose to fly LW planes the
learn to live with what they really had to fly n fight against dont sit here and try and
complain your way into keeping ur LW planes
as the uber set of the arena. get tired of seeing, people stomp thier feet saying
I want my plane better then yours.
i fly a plane because i want too, not because its better than what the enemy have.
Whels
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
My understanding is that 45 P-80s were produced prior to the end of the war in the ETO and that two had been deployed to Italy for operational evaluation, but were specifically kept out of actual combat situations. That's a far cry from an aircraft that never made it past the prototype stage (Go229).
Didnt know that. If it is true, it is OK with me to bring P80 into the Perk planeset.
The other difference, in terms of why the P-80 could be modeled, and the Go229 probably won't, is that there is a large body of real flight test data that HTC could draw on to model the P-80. In contrast, the *prototype* for the production version of the Go229 was never even finished, so you're really mixing apples and oranges in terms of comparing the two and why they should or should not be modeled.
Forgetting about the offensive tone of that last paragraph I'll tell you that there were extensive tests on Ho prototypes. Maybe is not the extension of the research the P80 has, but here we have some planes done with little information (C205 comes to mind in this matter). So I dont thing that is a motive to keep Go229 out of the perk system, at least if you are going to introduce planes up to december 1945.
The motives for me are others well different, that for me Go229 was too late for even the perk system...but that happens also with the DH Vampire, and I thought that it happened too with the P80. Seems the P80 was in Italy last days of the war? ok, then include it. I thought that they still were going to last some more time to arrive.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-16-2000).]
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in all this RAM, I have a question (hopefully your hot spanish blood is cool enough to answer without yelling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Every time a new plane has been added to the set that is late war planeset (nik2, Yak, P47, p-38) has HTC not been VERY good about making sure the plane is not an arena dominator? I mean some of these guys had bugs but when corrected they are all very competetive in the arena. and furthermore.. not one of them has been _exactly_ what you thought it would be.
Now what makes you think that HTC would either
A: throw a completely dominant plane into the planeset that would be imminently capable of killing other planes in the dweebiest hands?
or
B: Put in a MkXIV as perfect as you fear it would be?
They have NEVER done so in the past- F4u-c is closest they have come yet when approached with respect the chicken of the sea can be dealt with by almost any other plane.
Frankly I think it's funny that you guys read all the glowing praise of the spit and think it will be modelled "just so" and with none of the bad areas. IMHO anyone who thinks that is bloody foolish- HTC hasn't done that with ANY plane they have done yet. If anything they swing the OTHER way- they model all it's nastiest characteristics and then give it the performance it had historically.
In any case- time will tell. Why bother complaining about the MkXIV before it even APPEARS???
I think it has every right to be here- so does the dora and the La-7. Bring 'em on and lets start the party rolling!!
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Go229 is the prototype name for the Gotha Flying Wing. Ho229 is the production name. I read that this plane was highly unstable in flight.
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Sorrow:
I never feared Yak9 half as much as I fear Spit XIV, and that happens with all planes that have been introduced since I came here.
I say nothing about HTC ,they know their work and I trust their criterium to choose if SpitXIV is a perk plane or not.
I only say that I am pretty sure that if the SpitXIV comes to AH as described in that report comparing it with Fw190 me109 and spitIX, then it will be a monster ,and so it will be perked...but also am concerned with the incoming yells if it is perked from RAF people...
Fdiron...where did you read that? cuz I read just the opposite about it!
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-17-2000).]
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p80 should not be perk. period. its a frigging korean war airplane, not ww2. You really want some runstang driver in a 600 MPH p80? Puh-leeze.
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Forget your friggin DORKA and Spit XXIVVITFRYETREYRTJHDERESNBGKJ's I just want some ocean and a PBY Cat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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critter maybe a Blackcat version PBY now that would rock.
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Ram:
"Comparing apples and oranges" is a way of saying that you are comparing two completely different things and then drawing a similar conclusion that isn't necessarily justified. The tone (IMO) is one of disagreement, but not one of any disdain.
In terms of why I think they're apples and oranges, you cannot compare real production aircraft (like the C.205 and P-80) to an aircraft like the Go-229 where the prototype for the production model never even flew. The closest thing to the Go-229 that actually flew was the Horton HO IX (most historians feel that the Ho IX designation is the correct one for the prototype, and because the production was to be carried out by Gotha, the production aircraft would have been called the Go-229, and not the Ho-229, just FYI) v1 and v2. The Ho IX v1 was a glider, the Ho IX v2 was a powered prototype. The v2 prototype was smaller than the v3, powered by different engines, and with a different shape... so any data that exists for it would not necessarily apply to the v3.
With regard to the C.205, I can only say that I would assume that HTC found a reasonable amount of real data that would enable them to model the C.205 with a good degree of fidelity.
I'm all for fantasy aircraft, but I think it's a bit much to expect HTC to build aircraft that never ever flew. At that point AH/WB/WW2Online becomes little more than the Warbird Construction Kit where they dump in some numbers and see what comes out... and while that might be interesting, that's a far cry from modeling that actually flew (like the P-80, Ta-152, etc.).
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 07-17-2000).]
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Bottom Line?
As someone above said, the Luftweenies just cannot accept a game in which their aircraft are not at the top of the food chain. That's all this argument is, really.
They throw in "what if" and "if only" and "production difficult cause we were getting bombed on a daily basis"...but the bottom line is they don't want to see anything "allied" that performs better than their "dream machines".
For example, the F4U-4 would be a nightmare in this arena environment.
The facts? The allies KNEW they had it won long before D-Day (although a long tough, row had yet to be hoed) and a decision was made to maximize present production (which was doing the job quite nicely, thank you) and ease off on the development of new hardware.
The 262 almost upset the apple cart, though. My father-in-law flew with the 303rd BG and he had lots of respect for that one. But the response was just to bomb the factories and airfields even more and cap the 262 fields. It never became the threat that it could have become because the cause was simply lost by then. The numbers just weren't there.
That's what you Luftweenies keep forgetting...the cause was lost by '44 (some might say late '43) and the issue was never in doubt. That explains the aircraft that resulted...on both sides. Germany kept trying to pull rabbits out of the hat and the allies just built more of what was working even faster.
Now, did this post tick off enough people?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have a nice day!
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Toad...did you took some 5 minutes to read my previous posts? you are calling me "luftweenie" and you still havent read a single post I've posted here.
Originally posted by RAM:
LEt see. You say that up to 1942 Germany had better planes than Britain ,and I must agree.BUT (and in this discussion the but is a BIG one) the gap between British planes and German's was always a very little one, Me109E was better that SpitI, but not by much. Me109F waa better than SpitV but NOT by much. Fw190A was a nightmare for SpitV but SpitIX made again the gap a little one until the point that in mid 1943 SpitfireIX and Fw190A5 were regarded as equals.
When latewar came Britain produced the SPitfireXIV, a plane that far outclassed any German fighter it could find (range was a problem in history, but not in MA)...the gap was immense between German fighters and Spitfire XIV's performance..Germany lasted some 8 months in delivering a plane that could close that gap with the spit and at least to level the game against the P51, the Dora-9. Still if you see the numbers, Spitfire XIV is better in all regards than D9 except rollrate and range. IN ALL REGARDS!!!...
You say that latewar stuff was better in allied side, and that was the reason because they won the war. I agree, zig, It is a sound argument. But THIS IS NOT WWII!! this is a simulator in wich you fly against other planes! so to make it an interesting simulator you have to keep the planeset levelled or you'll end flying allied latewar stuff, and more if you perk low-numbers planes as Ta152 while you dont do it with P47M or Spitfire XIV.
[/b]
Go and read my previous posts. Then edit your post. And please next time read the thread before posting it it.
I have the feeling that people simply jump over my posts and dont read them just because they dont like what I think. It is more than clear that you didnt read my previous posts, Toad. and I wonder why. And more seriously I wonder why do you post here if you dont know what did I say in this matter.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-18-2000).]
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well i read them all RAM and you'r a LUFT-Winer ...
seriously .. if it was there during the war it should be in the sim .. but only to the point that it had to have seen some combat .. and i don't mean 1 test flight (oh man put the Go229 back into the SWOTL box)..
I'm not a Spit fan either .. and my F4U-1D will be seriously outclassed but well that's just another challenge.
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Oh, I've read 'em. And read 'em. And read 'em. And read 'em.
And they all pretty much say the same thing don't they?
In another recent thread, I see you've brought back one of your old favorites...you're going to quit AH if things don't go your way. Give me your address, I'll send ya a box of Kleenex.
If you read MY message, I didn't say a single thing about the "Perk System" to be. There's two basic points there.
1) The LW worshippers never relax until a LW plane is at the top of the MA food chain AND
2)there is a basic, obvious reason why Germany HAD to try stuff that was basically experimental while the Allies could just keep building more of what was already doing the job.
(Go ahead, go back and reread it.)
I am content to let HTC put the perk thing in the game, adjust by trial and error and then move on to more and better things. I sorta think it's going to be scary to see guys like Torque and Mitsu in the top rides, but hey, I'm more than willing to give it a whirl, because "Hey, those HTC guys are GOOD!"
(Pay attention, now I'm going to say something about the "Perk System")
I would allow EVERYTHING that saw any WW2 combat into the MA, with no restrictions. Suprised??? (...and a LW plane would probably be the killer ride, so you could finally stow your sodden hanky.)
That would definitely change the game. It would probably lead to a rolling plane set or some other, newer innovation. Which is how the genre grows. Like with HTC's "perk" idea, for example. Growth.
It might work out really well. It might be a mistake that leads us down a "false trail" for a while but eventually it would be corrected. It might take a little juggling with which planes are "perks". You'd have to try it to see how it evolves. Of course, how silly of me... I forgot...you're going to quit if it doesn't go your way from the very start, right?
I personally don't care if they "perk" or don't. Put 'em ALL in there! Cry "Havoc" and let slip the dogs of war!
Have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Duckwing6:
seriously .. if it was there during the war it should be in the sim .. but only to the point that it had to have seen some combat .. and i don't mean 1 test flight (oh man put the Go229 back into the SWOTL box)..
Originally posted by RAM:
hummm...I dont thing P80 would be ok as perk plane...
of course I think just the same about Go229.
<Sigh>...Noone reads what I write...
For me this thread is history, I am TIRED. Not only you dont see my point,but still I am insulted when I try to explain it.
Toad I'd tell you what you can do with your kleenex. But I think Its better I dont do it.
<RAM puts the IGNORE MODE ON>
Bring the F15 into AH...you know what? I dont mind a toejam.
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Originally posted by RAM:
<Sigh>...Noone reads what I write...
Apparently, you would HAVE to include yourself in that statement.
Have a REALLY nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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<POST ERASED DUE TO IGNORE MODE ON>
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My point EXACTLY!
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Toad, I do not always agree with RAM, but i think you're not quite correct either. I don't think your statement about luftwaffe pilots walways wanting uber planes etcera are quite correct. Personally, I just wanna see the airplanes perform like they should historically. I fly all manner of planes, from p38 to jug to 190. But currently, well i often get frustrated by mustang drivers since they usuallly just run (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Many say the a5 is uber, but its really not, any US iron can catch the a5 in a chase, I know i have chased many down in the jug (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) So what the LW boys want is a plane that can catch all the runstangs out there and nail em (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Me, when i know astang is aorund i wanna kill i will grab a stang myself since im not tied to one country's airplanes, but some prefer to fly only 1 nationality, so they should be given a plane that can catch those runners.
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Here is the one I think is really stupid.
The P-47 N/M relegated to a perk plane?
A plane varient that had more aircraft see combat than the Fw190D9 AND the Me109K4 put together !!
The two mainstays of the Luftwaffe in online flight sims (at least as they are flown in our sims, I know in reality it was different).
Totally asinine.
Oh and RAM, you can have your Ta-152. Please do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) But For the umpteenth million time, check out the factory test data for the aircraft. The 152 absolutly stank at the altitudes we most commonly see fighting in the arena. Especially if you consider that it should be a 152H0, since the H1 that so many of you quote numbers from, since the H1 mostly likely never saw combat. And thats straight from a German author using Focke-Wulf factory documents.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 07-18-2000).]
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Verm:
I didn't include the 47M/N in my list because it so clearly outperforms the other non-perk aircraft listed. IMO the approach to making an a/c perk and/or non-perk should be moreso based on performance than whether it saw combat or not.
Interestingly, while Ram keeps shouting about what a "MONSTER" the XIV is (and, frankly, I think he is somewhat overrating it), the 47M is the single prop a/c on the list that truly is a Monster.
For a good read (I especially recommend that Luftwobbles read this if they're having constipation problems <G> ) on the P-47M, see:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9485/P-47M.html (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9485/P-47M.html)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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PS - Note the critical mach cited... I suspect that the 47D was capable of similar... which is again why I wonder how the 109G10 supposedly outdives the 47D in AH.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Zig,
You are right. That was too broad a generalization. Not all Luftwaffe afficianados are continual whiners and I apologize to those that I may have offended.
Most people have accepted that fact that the planeset will continue to grow, bringing new challenges and new tactics to all nationalities. Most know that no one plane is "best" in every single category; all have strengths and weaknesses. Most don't feel the need to have the absolute dominant plane in the game as part of their particular stable; instead they just want a plane in which they can be competitive.
So, I should have been more specific and said "Luftwhiners"...the guys that howl in outrage at every deployment of (ITNSHO) "over-modeled" Allied equipment and wail in anguish when yet another (ITNSHO) "undermodeled" Axis plane appears.
The guys that have been pleading for the Dora for months, chortling with glee as they tell us how the Dora will sweep the skies, dominating the arena....and then have the nerve to remonstrate the Brits for asking for the Spit XIV, saying it's simply too good and would rule the arena.
That small percentage of players are the guys I meant. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But I do have one question for you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by Zigrat:
So what the LW boys want is a plane that can catch all the runstangs out there and nail em (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .... but some prefer to fly only 1 nationality, so they should be given a plane that can catch those runners.
OK, so when the LW gets their plane "that can catch those runners" then obviously the Mustang guys that are now being caught can legitimately request and receive a new plane to catch the plane that is catching them?
If so, I'm with Verm and SnakeEyes...give me the P-47M!
Really though, of the 6 nationalities in the present planeset, how would you rank them with respect to needing a more competitive aircraft?
I'd have to say the Italians, Japanese and Russians should be duking it out for the first three places in line. The Brits and the Jerrys would be tussling over the 4th and 5th positions and the Yanks would lean against the wall in the number 6 slot, cleaning their fingernails and whistling.
BTW, can I bribe you to show me that 38 move? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cya up there!
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F8F...F8F...sooo what. GIvE ME the F7F!! F7F people. F7f was closer to combat then the F8F was!
Gorf
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Good try toad. but I wont bite.
BTW I think that Creamo and you make a fun couple (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Only by about 1 month Gorf. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
See the following URL for more information about the amazing "Cat" series:
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Grumman.html (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Grumman.html)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by Toad:
The guys that have been pleading for the Dora for months, chortling with glee as they tell us how the Dora will sweep the skies, dominating the arena....and then have the nerve to remonstrate the Brits for asking for the Spit XIV, saying it's simply too good and would rule the arena.
Somebody noticed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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Uhh, that Mach number is for the XP-47J, not the P-47M.
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Did anyone claim otherwise?
In any event, I can point you to another article which simply outlines what we all know: That virtually every US aircraft of the war, with the exception of the early P38s, was able to dive with or outdive the Luftwaffe a/c from similar time periods (and they note that this includes the P40 and F4F).
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/F4U-4.html (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/F4U-4.html)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by RAM:
<RAM puts the IGNORE MODE ON>
[/b]
Originally posted by RAM:
<POST ERASED DUE TO IGNORE MODE ON>
Originally posted by RAM:
Good try toad. but I wont bite.
BTW I think that Creamo and you make a fun couple (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
RAM! You're ignoring me! Don't answer! Did you forget already? How will you ever hurt my feelings if you answer while ignoring me?
Don't you read your own posts? Or did I point that out already?
The funny thing is I never agreed with Creamo on _anything_ until he started replying to your posts! Now I want to buy him a beer or six at the con!
Lastly, you do bite. Big Time. You are a habitual complaining nit-picker and you are totally biased in favor of the LW at the expense of the rest of the countries in the game. Please excuse me for being frank with you, but I'm sure you appreciate honesty.
Now switch countries again and come kill me! You'll feel much better.
Karnak, lots of people noticed. It's pretty much a standing joke with the guys I fly with. But it's so typical of those guys that it was ignored as one more rant. I finally just got a little tired of it...and when I wrote that first one I had about 10 oz of really good Scotch in me and let it flow...... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(Do you guys shoot better when you're half in the bag too? I'm going to start keeping records!)
I support ANY plane in the game IF it flew WW2 combat. I do think they should be introduced in opposing pairs on a common timeline. That way there would be both Allied and Axis viable options all the time. So, if the D9 comes...damn straight, bring on the XIV. (but first throw some tidbits to the Italians, Japanese and Russians)
SnakeEyes...knock that crap off...you'll only confuse and confound them with facts! Look what happened to F4UDOA!
Have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Er... I did goof on one thing... I think I said something about the 109G10 outdiving the P47... but the original post was that the 109G10 outdived the P38. And, as that earlier info clearly states, the LW a/c could only outdive the early P38 mods.
My bad.
Roger on the factual info Toad... I'll stop now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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SnakeEyes, I think the performance numbers from that site you posted are a little high, but your are definitely right the P-47M/N is a real screamer.
I think the numbers from AHT (if my memory serves me correctly) are more like 463 mph max for the M, and the N is a little slower (5 mph or so?). But of course the N is only slower on paper because it is carrying so much more fuel.
People in AH, especially the Luftwaffe contingent, tend to forget (or intentionally forget for propaganda purposes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) that the 109G10 already is a 452 mph fighter.
Now personally, I like aircraft from all countries. I have no allegiance to aircraft from only one country. I fly P-51's, P-47's, Yak's, and even the odd N1K2. And even though some may die in shock I would love to fly the Dora.
But here is the funny part.
So many fans of late war Euro Theater aircraft (be it American, German, or British), constantly dismiss Pac aircraft as inferior and "easy kills". But they tend to forget that the two most effective combat aircraft of the war that saw service in numbers, were actually Pac aircraft.
What were they?
F4U-4 and the P-47N
So you can have your Pony, your Dora, your Ta-152, or even your Tempest.
The only thing that even comes close is either the Spit XIV or if properly flown the Me262 (and thats not a real plane just a beer can with flaming lighter fluid coming out the back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) )
And for real life fighter missions I would take the F4U-4 or P-47N, over the Spit XIV any day of the week. Much more robust, better ability to carry wide range of external ordinance, much longer range, more reliable radial engine (combat damage wise). And they carry proper white star markings, instead of those Nancy Boy "aim here" roundels (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Of course that all my opinon.... but its based on alot of fact (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I would love to see a J3N3 Raiden "Jack" and H8K2 "Emily" for the Japanese, one of those funky 3 engined bombers for the Italians and a Tu-2 for the Russians. Of course I'd also love to see the Fw190D-9 and Spitfire MkXIV. Bring 'em all in!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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If I'm flying in the PTO, I'm thinking that I'm not real good at treading water, and that I'd prefer a P-38J/L. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Vermillian,
I druel at the thought of a F4U-4 in AH. The P-47M and N were monsters but just for comparison take a look at this.
The F4U-4 at Combat power climbed at almost 4000FPM compared to 3500FPM for the P-47M. But what is really the difference between these two A/C is that the P-47M performance drops off drastically at military power to 2500FPM where as the F4U-4 continues to climb at 3400FPM at military power. The same applies for speed where both A/C are at or near 380MPH at sea level at combat power but at military power the F4U-4 is at 360MPH and the P-47M is at 340MPH. Combine that with the roll, low speed turning ability and a 450MPH top speed and the F4U-4 maybe the best overall A/C to be considered for AH. The P-47M would only begin to have an advatage over 30K. It's only possible compitition below 30K would be the P-51H,
F8F-1 or the F2G Super Corsair. The Ta-152 and Dora would not be as mighty in an arena filled with these monsters. Considering there were 1700 F4U-4's built during the war I don't know if it should be a perk plane or a reguler mount. Maybe the F4U-4B could be the perk plane. Here is some evidence of it's existance during 1944.
(http://www.vought.com/photos/images/1111_02.jpg)
Later F4UDOA