Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Citabria on May 06, 2001, 07:28:00 PM
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the guy made 10 a2a kills in the 190f8 variants and busted over 500 tanks mostly w the ju87 models and had the worlds greatest marksman for a rear gunner who killed multiple enemies chasing their stuka (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
there is certainly many luftwaffe players who admire this individuals flying skills and luck(not his politics though hopefully) who would be stalwart ju87 flyers during any air to ground sorties.
hoping for the Ju87D before the ju87G though since the ju87G was really a ju87D-5 w 37mm gondolas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Throughout his military career he displayed talent, courage and toughness. His final tally of successes is awing;
-2530 sorties (including some 400 in a Folke-Wulf 190).
-11 air to air victories (in the FW-109).
-519 Tanks Destroyed (30+of these came when he was only flying with one leg).
-150 Artillery pieces destroyed.
-1000 vehicles destroyed.
-70 landing crafts.
-Sunk Battleship “Marat”.
-2 Cruisers and a Destroyer sunken.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/iron_cross/golden_diamonds/golddiamonds_recipient/rudel.htm (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/iron_cross/golden_diamonds/golddiamonds_recipient/rudel.htm)
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(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/rot3jv44.jpg)
Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
(By order of the State Railway)
Pray not for an end to the slaughter...but for VICTORY!!!
[This message has been edited by Wotan (edited 05-06-2001).]
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He also flew the D-9. He was not much for flying fighter's though. Loved his Stuka, and in all honesty was the best pilot ever IMO. HE had quite the large price tag on his head from the russians, as you can see by his stats I can see why (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-06-2001).]
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He was also an unrepentant Nazi.
How many times was he shot down?
How many of his tailgunners were killed?
The guy was a bastard and a half.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Im not exactly sure bout his tailgunners, but hes often mentioned specifically with one or two gunners, so I really doubt they were dying in droves by any means. Of course we all know how poorly IL2 gunners fared in the war. Anyway as for his personal bravery, courage and loyalty to his comrades he was often known to land behind enmy lines and rescue downed crews. As for his nazi ideals, no doubt he was an unrepentant misguided fanatic for long after the war. But there can be no doubt he was the greatest combat pilot in all of military history, bar none! His stats if nothing else bear this out, NOBODY NOBODY in history of combat aviation flew as many combat sorties, or spent as many total hours flying in combat. NOBODY even comes close.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
He was also an unrepentant Nazi.
The guy was a bastard and a half.
That he was but his personal beliefs have no basis of his skill. And he was a highly skilled ground attack pilot.
Wingnut
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Originally posted by Karnak:
He was also an unrepentant Nazi.
How many times was he shot down?
How many of his tailgunners were killed?
The guy was a bastard and a half.
I know he lost one gunner that drowned, but the guy had a few screws loose. He was, and no one ever will come close ot what he did. He rescued downed pilots in a stuka!! What is impressive he flew right up until the end in a stuka. So what if he got shot down the best pilots happened to them as well. How would you know if he was a bastard?
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He was a hardcore nazi. HE was a hell of a pilot, and a very very underdog one (many people know Hartmann's name and records, but not many remember who Rudel was).
But he was possibly the best combat pilot in WWII. At least the Luftwaffe condecorated him over any other ace (Knight's cross with GOLD Oak Leaves, swords and diamonds), wich is a credit for his bravery in combat.
He was a very good teammate, known for landing to rescue downed mates. We all know how did the russians treat the shot down Luftwaffe pilots,and so he did, so he was risking more than death there.
He was shot down many times, yet I think he only lost one gunner during the whole war.
That he was a nazi pig doenst hid the fact that was one of the best fighting men in history. As I said long time ago, I?m sorry for those who cant admire the bravery and skill of some people because they have completely screwed political views. I hate Rudel as a Nazi, but I deeply admire him as a pilot.
And I want the Ju-87G in AH!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Hmm, I wonder if HTC would give 1000kg bombs with the Stuka..
Since theres not a single 1000kg/2000lb bombs available, other than halifaxs 4000lb.
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Ju-87D could carry 1800kg bomb in center rack.
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Originally posted by Staga:
Ju-87D could carry 1800kg bomb in center rack.
that would be a must bomb.
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Attila the Hun was a magnificent leader and a tough and able fighter - do you admire him? He raped, pillaged and enslaved.
William Wallace was a magnificent leader and a tough and able fighter - do you admire him? He raped, tortured and murdered.
You see, a lot of people here have such a gift for separating a man into component parts. Sure he was great pilot, but you are able to overlook his political beliefs as if they weren't even there.
There's respect, then there's admiration and finally there is 'hero-worship'.
So many times the LW is seen as some glorious force desperately defending a embattled and bombarded nation. Like knights of old.
Bollocks.
That same LW force was strafing refugees in France, bombing the great cities of Poland to pieces and Blitzing London, Coventry, Sheffield etc etc.
Respect I can understand. I respect the LW aces who despised Nazism and admire those who openly resisted it at great cost to themselves. But admiring ardent Nazis 'for their flying skills'? Talking about hundreds of kills of tanks like you were proclaiming end-of-season scoring stats. for your favourite football player?
THAT is hero-worship or the talk of children.
Personally, it's akin to me saying 'I do not agree with Hitler for his political views, but I admire his moustache-trimming skills'. It is simply ridiculous in the extreme.
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Hehe Dowding...
So many times the RedArmy is seen as some glorious force desperately defending a embattled and bombarded nation. Like knights of old.
Bollocks.
That same RedArmy force was strafing refugees in Finland, bombing the great cities of Finland and Estonia to pieces and Blitzing Helsinki and Tampere and several other cities in Finland etc etc.
Now keep politics out of AH please.
Edit: BTW my father was a refugee; He and his family had to left Viipuri because of russian invasion. He told me how they had to run to the woods from road because of Russian fighters and bombers.
Looks like you have a problem with "Nazi-pilots".
Should I have a problem with Commie-Pilots too? Because I don't have any problems to fly with commie plane or respect those Russian pilots who fought in WW2, Just like any other pilots who fought for their country.
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Dowding, three words for you:
Sir Arthur Harris
You recognize that name? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[edit]apart, the two persons you name own to an age were pillage was as usual as war.Personally I admire way more Genghis Khan, and he was one of the most cruel leaders the world has seen.But that has nothing to do with his administrative and military skills, wich are the reasons why I admire him.[/quote]
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Sir Arthur Harris is a man who did a difficult job. He fought using some of the same methods as his enemies, because when he took command it was the only way Britain could fight. He did not invent area bombing, or introduce it, he simply refined a German tactic. He fought for a better world, not for a vision of hell that the Nazi's would have brought.
Don't compare him to scum like Rudel, or any Nazi for that matter.
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Oh man, here we go again... >sigh<
Hartmann's ability as a Pilot is out of question. But he was a political amazinhunk. Hitler's ability of moustache trimming are unique (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) But he was a threat to mankind, and he's ideas are still a threat.
Yep Finnland had a hard time with the Russians, but so did Russia with Germans.
But the same Hartmann was training his skill on strafing refugees in Poland and Russia - so for me he was a War Criminal. Point.
I said it once, if you wan't to see war go to the refugees camps - they are a few arround the world. Thats war. The rest is Hollywood.
Sailor
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Originally posted by metronom:
But the same Hartmann was training his skill on strafing refugees in Poland and Russia - so for me he was a War Criminal. Point.
Is that american pilot who did bomb a refugee truck in kosovo, as well a war criminal?
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
Sir Arthur Harris is a man who did a difficult job. He fought using some of the same methods as his enemies, because when he took command it was the only way Britain could fight. He did not invent area bombing, or introduce it, he simply refined a German tactic. He fought for a better world, not for a vision of hell that the Nazi's would have brought.
Don't compare him to scum like Rudel, or any Nazi for that matter.
yah yah yah yah. I will tell you one thing, I dont compare Harris with Rudel (because he doenst reach his pants...when did Harris get into a combat aircraft?. Harris sent his men to bomb civilians because he could not send them to fight the military.).
I compare him with Göring. A man who orders terror bombings because he has not the guts to fight the enemy's military as it has to be done, is a war criminal for me. Göring did this in Rotterdam and Belgrade. Hitler did it with London. Harris did it with Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden, Etc, LeMay did it with Tokyo, and most Japanese cities, etc. And dont come to me with the "they did it first". If my neighbor gets a .12 shotgun and kills my father, that doesnt allow me to get a gun and kill his. The "they did it first" is the most denigrant excuse you can present because impliticly you admit you have fall to their same level.
Harris or LeMay were as war criminals as Göring was. They were not nazis, yeah, but both ordered terror bombings.
Metronom, just FYI, Hartmann was not nazi. And your story about Hartmann's training shooting refugees, is the first time I hear or read about it. So I say is BS until you come here with the sources.
Nuremberg was a biased trial; It was a fair trial and a very benefitious one for the humanity (basically nuremberg declared that to wage war was illegal).
But it was a heavily biased one aswell. Biased because it trialled German criminals while let the allied criminals out of it.
People like Dönitz were sentenced to long time in prison, or to death like Göring, while their allied counterparts were just as guilty as them and were at that time taking a beer, victorious and raised to national hero status.
Why did Donitz go to jail for 10 years, while Lockwood was treated as an hero in the USA?. Both did the same thing: open and total submarine war against the enemy's merchant fleets.
Why did Göring got sentenced to death because crimes against the humanity (bombing of London, Rotterdam, Belgrade, etc), while Lemay and Harris were given the status of living legends in their nation, after having given just the same kind of orders?.
And I wont enter and start talking about the "uberhumanitarian" comrade Stalin and his wonderful actions...
And dont come here mad at me, I'm not saying that the Trial to Göring was unfair. he was trialed and found guilty of crimes against the humanity, and his penalty was death. I agree with that sentence. But then WHY didnt the other war criminals who did the same crimes went to the death?.
Vae victis....................... ..
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]
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I didn't want this to turn into a "All LW fliers are evil" thing, I don't think that they are/were.
I just wanted some of the readers of this forum who are less versed in histroy to understand both sides of Rudel.
The man was very skillful at what he did, however he was also a firm believer in the cause he was fighting for, a cause that is seen in historical terms as evil.
As far as Harris goes, the stigma of what he ordered kept him from any great success after the war. A lot of you guys really ought to look at the circumstances from which he, and the United Kingdom, where operating though. It was a war that they hadn't asked for, a war for which they weren't prepared and a war for which new tactics, sometimes tactics of desparation, were needed. The Commonwealth forces were using the tools that they had, to try to win by means that were believed at the time to be effective.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Didn't the British start WW2 without trying diplomatic intervention?
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Now keep politics out of AH please.
Keep the hero-worship out of AH, please.
Looks like you have a problem with "Nazi-pilots".
Should I have a problem with Commie-Pilots too? Because I don't have any problems to fly with commie plane or respect those Russian pilots who fought in WW2, Just like any other pilots who fought for their country.
No Staga - you misunderstand by a huge margin. I have no problem with the 'Nazi-pilots' as you put it - I respect those that grudgingly 'did what they had to do' and I admire those that were openly anti-Nazi.
I despise those who were rabid Nazis, whether they were Hitler's closest aides or those fighting on the battlefield. But they are mostly dead, so it doesn't really 'get' to me.
What I do have a problem with is the hero-worship of these people and individuals who talk like excited children discussing their favourite football player. It's positively infantile.
Sir Arthur Harris is a man who did a difficult job. He fought using some of the same methods as his enemies, because when he took command it was the only way Britain could fight. He did not invent area bombing, or introduce it, he simply refined a German tactic. He fought for a better world, not for a vision of hell that the Nazi's would have brought.
Don't compare him to scum like Rudel, or any Nazi for that matter.
I agree totally Nashwan. But RAM can't seem to understand that the British did not want WW2 and went out our way to avoid conflict. Furthermore, he fails to understand why the Allies should want the war ended as soon as possible. For him, WW2 was an arena for his 'glorious' aces to increase their season tally. I'm sure Hartmann et al would be so very pleased that 60 years later their exploits would be 'admired' so fervently by people who weren't even born when the war ended.
Finally, in RAM's view of the world, the Allies' ROE would have involved throwing more and more Allied troops at the Germans - bleeding the Allies dry of resources and man-power to the point that Europe could not be rebuilt. Meanwhile, the atrocities at Auchwitz and all the other death camps would proceed regardless.
It is a point of controversy whether or not the bombing shortened the war. There are Germans who were there at the time who think it did; there are some that believe it didn't. Frankly, we'll never know for sure. But the true war crime of WW2 was that comitted by the German leadership and their unwillingness to surrender - thus comitting a whole German generation to death and the partitioning of Europe for 50 years.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
As far as Harris goes, the stigma of what he ordered kept him from any great success after the war. A lot of you guys really ought to look at the circumstances from which he, and the United Kingdom, where operating though. It was a war that they hadn't asked for, a war for which they weren't prepared and a war for which new tactics, sometimes tactics of desparation, were needed. The Commonwealth forces were using the tools that they had, to try to win by means that were believed at the time to be effective.
What you say would've been valid in 1943 or 1944, but the massive night bombings on a nation beaten down as Germany was in 1945 had no reason to be by that standard. By late 1944 the UK had clearly the assets to fight the war in other way, yet Harris DEMANDED the terror bombing to go ahead.
Tell me, was Dresden a good example of "to try to win by means that were believed at the time to be effective."?...in 1945 was that Dresden bombing the only way believed to be effective?.
Well, Harris' bomber command was there en masse. Just as they were on Hamburg, or over Berlin, or over all the rest of the cities he ordered to be bombed. In 1940 at their bleakest moments I can udnerstand your argument. In 1944-45 when Germany was clearly going doen,not. And it was at that period when most of the british bombs fell over germany.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Finally, in RAM's view of the world, the Allies' ROE would have involved throwing more and more Allied troops at the Germans - bleeding the Allies dry of resources and man-power to the point that Europe could not be rebuilt. Meanwhile, the atrocities at Auchwitz and all the other death camps would proceed regardless.
Oh no no no no, dude. What I say is that if that way of warfare was found to be "legitim" then nuremberg was the highest peak in earth hypocresy history. Because lots of men were sent to jail or sentenced to dead, guilty of the same penalties wich made allied commanders HEROS.
IF the allied terror bombings were legitim...why was Goering sentenced to death as a criminal agaisnt the humanity because that same reason?....
IF the US submarine offensive against Japan in 1944 was legitim...why was Doenitz sent to Jail for 10 years (initially sentenced to be in Jail for the rest of his life) while Lockwood was drinking Bourbon saluting his comrades?
I dont say there were otehr ways of warfare. I simply say that the double standards of nuremberg are the biggest peak of hypocresy yet reached. And that this same hypocresy is alive today. Nothing else. Nothing less.
And on the Rudel thing, Hans-Ulrich Rudel will never be a hero for me. No nazi will ever be. But I am awed, and I admire, and I apreciate the skillful combat pilot wich was behind the hardcore nazi. I dont forget he was a nazi, and I hate him for that. But at the same time I can only be awed for his achievements as a fighting man.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]
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RAM, Harris was a pilot in WWI, he was a bit old to fly combat missions in WWII
Harris sent his men to bomb all german targets, factories and cities and ships and anything else he could hit. He did it because not doing it would have prolonged the war, or allowed the germans to win. The best quote I have seen on the matter is "The most immoral thing we could do is allow oureslves to lose"
Harris fought hard and dirty, not because the enemy did it first, byut because he felt it was necessary. It would be very easy for Britain to have sat there while Russia was fighting and done nothing, arguing that bombing the enemy was immoral.
When you are busy comparing Harris and Lemay with Goering and Doenitz, try to remeber 1 thing. Both Doenitz and Goering were convicted of planning and waging agressive war. They sat down and planned how they could conquer Europe, knowing what would happen to the people of Europe who got in their way.
The "they did it first" is the most denigrant excuse you can present because impliticly you admit you have fall to their same level.
You miss the point. Britain, despite having a long range bomber force, didn't bomb Germany at the start of the war. They tried to abide by the "rules" of war. When Germany showed they didn't care about any rules, what was the RAF supposed to do? Hamper themselves by observing a set of rules the enemy didn't? That's the quickest way to lose.
To have turned Germany into a peacefull haven, witrh no bombing (and thus no defences needed), whilst Britain was being bombed, and Russia overrun, would have been to give the Germans a much greater chance of winning.
You call Hamburg a war crime. Even by the standards of Nuremberg, which you seem to despise, it wasn't. Nor was London, or Rotterdam, or any of the cities the Germans bombed. Attacking your enemy is what war is all about. Harris attacked them with every means at his disposal, and I am glad he did. I would not like to live in a Nazi state, and I am sure you would not either. Trying to fight a "clean" war, whilst the Germans accepted no rules at all, would have brought a Nazi state a lot closer.
Men like Harris contributed to the freedom we enjoy today, and I for one am gratefull.
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Old Adolf once said:
The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.
Plenty of good people killed alot of other good people, and quite a few of them in cold blood. For both sides commited attrocities, its just that anyone in a german or japenese uniform gets a special mention.
Quite frankly being a Nazi is irrelevant. The thread was on what Rudel did, not why.
Tronsky
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Didn't the British start WW2 without trying diplomatic intervention?
Absolute, unmitigated rubbish. So now WW2 is Britain's fault? UN-BE-LIEVEABLE.
Britain DID enter into diplomatic talks with Hitler. Chamberlain 'gave away' the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia in 1938, but Hitler wanted more. When Hitler had taken most of Czechslovakia, Britain gave assurances to Poland and Romania that she would come to her aid if invaded by Germany.
Britain had NO choice but to declare war. Hitler was given a chance to avoid a conflict but pushed ahead anyway. Where do you think Britain should have drawn a line? Brusselles? Paris? Calais? The Channel Islands? The Isle of Wight? Dover? Brighton? Parliament Square?
Britain did NOT want a war. The population remembered WW1 and did not want a repeat. It had everything to lose - including the Empire. Which it duly lost in the post-war.
Sweet Jesus. The UK was nearly consumed by German forces - do you really think that would not have been avoided if there was any other way?
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Nashwan I very much doubt that Goering and Doenitz sat down planning the invasion of Europe. Donitz was not the chief of the Kriegsmarine in 1939,so had not many things to say (fortunately for the UK), and Goring was quite too much busy injecting morphine in his fat body.
And you very well support my point. In 1939 british bombers were ordered not to drop bombs on German anchored ships because they could hurt civilians. In 1940 Churchill ordered Berlin to be bombed. The second was ordered because the Germans had bombed london by error (tho the UK could not know that). In short, retaliation.
I say again, if I am hit by a guy with a baseball bat, and I go to hospital, I can't get out of hospital, get a bat and hit him as vengeance. Because then I will be as guilty as him. Or at least, after I do taht ,what I cant do is to go to trial accusing him of hitting me with a bat, because I have done it.
The allieds did it. They came out from hospital with a BIG fat bat, and they hit back the germans. Ok, lets assume than then terror bombings are legitimate. But then why go to trial?...both side were agressors, both sides were agreded. no matter who hit first, if you hit back you legitimate the first one. So both parts were guitly, but only one got its penalty. And I say that it was hypocresy, plain and simple.
Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
Didn't the British start WW2 without trying diplomatic intervention?
ehhe, well, while this is objectively true, there is much more than this. Germany was the agressor in WWII, regardless that it was the UK and france who declared war on Germany.
And in any case at that time, going to war with a Casus Belli was perfectly legitimate, and frankly, I think that Europe was at a latent war since Hitler occupied Czechoslovakia in early 1939. The attack on poland simply signaled the "official" start of hostilities. Is quite similar to when the USA declared war on Iraq after Iraq invaded Kuwait. The agressor was Iraq, even tho they had not declared war on the USA.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Man I forgot the smiley face. LOL was a joke, sheesh tough crowd over here today.
Please lets not talk about the french either,they seem to fight better when they are not on their own territory.
Get your redhots, popcorn, cotton candy.
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(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Wow what a thread. Let's lighten this a little.
Few years ago I saw a drug-addict kicking my car's door. I gave him good lesson which contained some re-modelling of his face (Yeah, tarmac is quite hard).
Later I was happy that guy didn't sue me after that fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
Please lets not talk about the french either,they seem to fight better when they are not on their own territory
LOL! oh man, I see stormy weather coming (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by R4M:
Because lots of men were sent to jail or sentenced to dead, guilty of the same penalties wich made allied commanders HEROS.
IF the allied terror bombings were legitim...why was Goering sentenced to death as a criminal agaisnt the humanity because that same reason?....
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]
Big difference here, man. When you lose the war, you are a war criminal....when you win, you are a hero. I am sure that if Germany had won there would have been quite a few Allied commanders put on trial or maybe just shot outright for their "war-crimes."
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Originally posted by sling322:
Big difference here, man. When you lose the war, you are a war criminal....when you win, you are a hero. I am sure that if Germany had won there would have been quite a few Allied commanders put on trial or maybe just shot outright for their "war-crimes."
Yep. And the situation would've been the same, but with inversed roles. Harris and LeMay would've been sent to death while Goering would've had been awarded yet another condecoration created for him alone.
That is the reason I say "vae victis". The winner will always get the glory, deserved or not, and almost always will walk away with his sins ignored or forbidden.
Rest assured, I can understand that attitude in 1946 (and in fact Nuremberg trial was a GREAT good for the world), but not today with the benefit of hindsight.
And the hypocresy of nuremberg, as I said, is well alive today. And that is what I try to remark.
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I say again, if I am hit by a guy with a baseball bat, and I go to hospital, I can't get out of hospital, get a bat and hit him as vengeance. Because then I will be as guilty as him. Or at least, after I do taht ,what I cant do is to go to trial accusing him of hitting me with a bat, because I have done it.
The allieds did it. They came out from hospital with a BIG fat bat, and they hit back the germans. Ok, lets assume than then terror bombings are legitimate. But then why go to trial?...both side were agressors, both sides were agreded. no matter who hit first, if you hit back you legitimate the first one.
RAM, getting out of hosital and going looking for revenge means the attack is over.
WW2 was not over, the Germans were still attacking, still occupying territory. It is a basic principle in almost every legal system that you have a right to self defence.
If someone hits you with a baseball bat, and you fight back, even if you use a bat yourself, you are not committing a crime. he is a criminal for attacking you, you are just defending yourself.
Both sides were not agressors. Germany invaded Poland, then Denmark, Norway, France, Belguim, Holland etc. Tell me how this makes both sides agressors?
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Ok, forget about the hospital.
He gives you a punch in the face and he breaks two teeth (first german terror bombings) Then he kicks you in your guts (battle of britain).But you try to recover and you punch him, way stronger, and you smash four of his teeth (english first night bombing campaigns up to 1942). Then you proceed to pull him and send him to the ground and you repeatedly kick him when he is trying to get up (night terror bombings in 1943-44). and when he is definitely on the ground, blooding and out of the fight, you kick him in the head, just in case (dresden)
Would you still sue him for agression? or would you try to "forget about it"?. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I know the analogy is not perfect, but more or less illustrates my point.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Actually neither, the wise man would beat the crap outa him making sure to knock all his teeth out. That way he will take a lot longer to recover before he comes looking for you again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM, your argument is flawed for 2 reasons.
1 Almost every legal system allows you to use any reasonable force defending yourself, including lethal force if you are faced with a threat. A woman is allowed to shoot or stab a rapist, if that is the only way to stop him. A man is allowed to fight back to the limit of his abilities, if h is attacked. If you believe the person you have just knocked to the ground will gt up and attack again, you are allowed to keep kicking him on the ground until you are sure he can't get up again.
2 To suggest the Allied response was an escalation of the German's is wrong. Who killed more civillians during the war? Germany, by a vast amount. I am not saying because they killed so many they deserved it, but the allied bombings were not an escalation, they were much smaller in scale than Germanies attacks.
The allies bombing attacks were designed to destroy the German economy, and towards the end they succeeded. In doing so they killed around 500,000 Germans, mainly civillians.
The Holocaust was designed to kill anyone who didn't meet German racial standards. It didn't help the German war effort, rather it hindered and cost the Germans a lot in lost production, partisan attacks etc. It resulted in the deaths of over 10,000,000 civillians.
Now tell me how that was a case of the Allies going over the top in their reaction.
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take your flamewar elsewhere you sniveling political hijackers.
this thread is about the ju87 not the politics of the side that flew it.
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Some site said later versions of Ju-87D was capable to jettison its landing gears.
Have you seen any more info about that ?
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Ju 87D-7
The Ju 87D-5 was not well suited for night operations, this was solved in the Ju 87D-7. It had night-flying instrumentation, flame damper tubes, and as a bonus it was powered by 1 × Junkers Jumo 211P inverted-Vee, rated at 1,500 hp (1.118 kW). Fixed forward armament was increased to 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons.
In other ways it was identical to the Ju 87D-5 with the larger wing and jettisonable main landing gear, but differed in details such as: empty weight of 8,686 lb (3.940 kg), max take-off weight of 14,561 lb (6.605 kg), max level speed of 249 mph (400 km/h) at 12,795 ft (5.800 m) Normal cruising speed was 186 mph (300 km/h) at 16,700 ft (5.090 m).
Ju87D-8
This version was built in parallel to the Ju 87D-7, but as a daylight version. It lacked the night-time instruments, and the flame damper tubes. The Ju 87D-7 and Ju 87D-8 were the last versions to be produced.
http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/junkju87.html (http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/junkju87.html)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Rudel is in Valhalla where he belongs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/rot3jv44.jpg)
Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
(By order of the State Railway)
Pray not for an end to the slaughter...but for VICTORY!!!
[This message has been edited by Wotan (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by metronom:
Oh man, here we go again... >sigh<
Hartmann's ability as a Pilot is out of question. But he was a political amazinhunk. Hitler's ability of moustache trimming are unique (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) But he was a threat to mankind, and he's ideas are still a threat.
Yep Finnland had a hard time with the Russians, but so did Russia with Germans.
But the same Hartmann was training his skill on strafing refugees in Poland and Russia - so for me he was a War Criminal. Point.
I said it once, if you wan't to see war go to the refugees camps - they are a few arround the world. Thats war. The rest is Hollywood.
Sailor
Ahem are you by any chance the people of the NKVD who interrogated Hartmann while in prisonin Russia?, and accused him of war crimes in a phony confesion, because you sure sound a lot like them in Hartmann's biography "The Blond Knight" LOL@U
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
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Metronom, if you believe that Soviet propaganda roadkill about Hartmann you really are pretty naive.
One of the things he was OFFICIALLY charged with by the Soviets was, and no this isnt a joke:
Destroying a wheat processing factory complex and machine-gunning 768 of its workers, all in his 109. Plus they said all this happend somewhere around Leningrad, while Hartmann faught all the war in the Caucuss region some 1000miles to the south..
Again, NO that is NOT a joke....
Thats what kind of bizzare roadkill Communist
Propagandists and kangaroo courts come up with! Dont be fooled by it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Destroying a wheat processing factory complex and machine-gunning 768 of its workers, all in his 109. Plus they said all this happend somewhere around Leningrad, while Hartmann faught all the war in the Caucuss region some 1000miles to the south..
He he hee..
Hes been pretty good shot with his 109 that time...
Did he destroy the factory with a cannon and then sniped the people with machineguns? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
funny stories.
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http://www.rudeliscool.net (http://www.rudeliscool.net)
AFAIK, Hartmann was charged by Soviets for flying hacked FM, manipulating hit packets and dweeby actions in general.
His aircraft with proper FM could never be a match for Allied planes, at least that is sure. Same goes for Barkhorn, Rall, Kittel, Nowotny, Krupinski. Batz and many other hackers.
[This message has been edited by Glunz (edited 05-08-2001).]
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I want those droptanks to 109 ! And ammoload too please !
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EVERYONE knows that lUFTWAFE pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) were inferor to ALLIED, especially ROYAL AIR FORCE !
They lost the war, GET REAL, whiners. You are all bunch OF LUFTWAFE WHINERS !! BWAHAAHAHAAAAAAA !!!!
At least 10 !!! RAF pilots had better records than best Luftwafe pilots !
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Originally posted by Spit Fire:
EVERYONE knows that lUFTWAFE pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) were inferor to ALLIED, especially ROYAL AIR FORCE !
They lost the war, GET REAL, whiners. You are all bunch OF LUFTWAFE WHINERS !! BWAHAAHAHAAAAAAA !!!!
At least 10 !!! RAF pilots had better records than best Luftwafe pilots !
You are umm in the wrong forum Spitty, this is the why the Luftwaffe pilots are God, and allies come second forum. Please post your facts and data for the most blatant lie I have yet to see.
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Spitty you are polluting this thread, Please go away or at least try to troll better next time.
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YOU SuCK !!
But I Will give you a clue:
Douglas BADER !
Johnnie Johnson
Pierre Clostermann
Jacques Cousteau
George Preddy
Antoine de Saint Exuperry
Thomas McGuire
Toshiro Mifune
Judd Hirsch
.....
the list is LOOOOOOOONG, you LaMeR !
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Please explain why they are better?
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Jacques Cousteau ?
I knew his son was a Catalina pilot but I didn't knew Jacq himself was a ace (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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zee planes in spain lay mainly in zee rain. JC a ace now? Bet ya the crocodile hunter ends up on his list as well.
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toshiro..isnt that a rather japanese name?
Tronsky
ps. Spitfire, brain neutral..mouth closed. Engage a gear before you say something else mate.
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btw I still think David Hasselhoff was/is better pilot than Hirsch. This was better but please stop now Spittie (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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In other ways it was identical to the Ju 87D-5 with the larger wing and jettisonable main landing gear
Just wondering how it was supposed to land? Were there some kind of skids provided or something?
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
In other ways it was identical to the Ju 87D-5 with the larger wing and jettisonable main landing gear
Just wondering how it was supposed to land? Were there some kind of skids provided or something?[/b]
It was made for emergency purposes.
You don't want to land your damaged bird on a bad terrain with gears down, which might make you go over and that would be far worse than skidded bottom.
Same goes for ditching in the water.
I'll put 10 bucks for spitty being Wobble.
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Just thought id add a few things here.
British were the inventors of concentration camps in the boar war in south africa.
America was stolen from the native americans by a superior force that enforced its ways and beliefs on those that opposed it.
its not really that different throughout history.The strong have consistantly tried to enforce their will on the weak.Good or Bad mankind will always admire a warrior.Fanatical Anti-nazism is just that fanatical.
I dont agree with any of the nazis ideals but its still interesting to learn about them and judging by how many programmes we see on the war on tv im not alone in this.
Dowding you seem to take great strides to accuse anyone who mentions germans as nazi hero worshippers.Sure there probably are a few loons but so what? Im not one of them and i think this rudel guy has an incredible fighting history.I dont give a damn which side he was on.If we are talking who is the best fighter pilot etc politics dont come into it.Its pleasurable to read about our pilots because they were 'ours' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but to dismiss others achievements because of their beliefs would pretty much reduce your list of 'possibles'.
For me personally who is my most admired pilot of world war 2? JE 'Johnnie' Johnson DSO DFC 34 victories (+7 shared and 3 possibles).all in the spit,all were single engine aircraft and he as only once hit by enemy fire.If you have ever seen an interveiw of him you will see he exudes Britishness! stiff upper lip, determined, brave!
BUT what were his political beliefs?
well you know....I never asked!
i admire his bravery and fighting spirit.
Rudel sounds to me like a brave man in the extreme.Im not about to turn into a nazi beast because i read about his exploits.
Dowding Ram isnt asking you to admire his beliefs and he has stated it clearly.Stop riding his back will you?
If i say i like the stuka you pipe up angrily calling me a nazi,I of course am extremely offended and start calling you names.this turns the BB into a playground and you(among others (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) are the cause.
if this post said rudel-nazi-what a lovely human being then i would help you beat the toejam up who said it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
all ram seems guilty of is being unable to express his emotions in english very well, he makes slight errors that end up spoiling his point now and again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but hell if i had to explain in spanish my views on the war i think id f*ck it up now and again too.
RAM : nazis are scum and i think you agree wholeheartedly.But you need to be carefull how you phrase things on this subject.Its easily misinterpreted as pro-nazi worship.
best stick to aircraft manuals!!! hehehe
'if i knocked his teeth out..blah blah'??????
wtf? we are talking about the systematic destruction of whole RACES of people by probably the most EVIL political force ever to walk the earth.Millions were brutally killed just for being who they were.PLEASE dont try to make such pathetic analagies.No wonder you piss people off.
Im more inclined to say if they fought for the nazis and wasnt a believer in their ideals they should have left.You get caught at the end of the war by the lynch mob?(nuremburg) TOO F*CKIN BAD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
'NAIL EM UP I SAY'
As for britain starting WW2? jesus people havent you read about Poland? READ PLEASE
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
'Lest we forget'
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-08-2001).]
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How about going back to topic?
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Originally posted by -tronski-:
toshiro..isnt that a rather japanese name?
Tronsky
ps. Spitfire, brain neutral..mouth closed. Engage a gear before you say something else mate.
You know WHAT !??
You are RIGHT about Toshiro Mifune !
(http://www.sprout.org/toshiro/main.jpeg)
He was Japanese, but he was ALWAYS !!! turnfighting ! THAT, my friend, is BRAVE ! Not like Luftwhiners who never turn.
Toshiro Mifune was one of the best in BFM and ACM (if you know what THOSE are).
[This message has been edited by Spit Fire (edited 05-08-2001).]
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Let's just erase nazi planes from AH and after that begin talking about the communists.
then rid commie planes and get going on with japs... then rid japs aaaand then same thing with US and brits..
okey.. what will we fly then?
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Italian baby
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Hazed, I agree with almost everything you said, but I can't let this
British were the inventors of concentration camps in the boar war in south africa.
go unanswered.
Britain invented the term concentration camp in the Boer war. Kitchener was carrying out a scorched earth policy against Boer guerrillas, and the camps were set up to house Boer civillians.
Initially deaths from disease were high, but the camps soon had a lower mortality rate than many British cities. After a public campaign against the camps, Kitchener ordered that no more civillians were to be admitted. A Boer congress called that decision inhumane, and requested that civillians again be admitted to the concentration camps.
These camps were nothing like what we now know of as concentration camps. It is hard to imagine a congress of Jews demanding to be taken to Auschwitz.
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friggin hijackers.
go start your own political roadkill thread and just let this one die now that its ruined.
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some 1 sold my country to safe his tiny island arse at that time Ceskolovensko army waz maybe second after Germany in Arms modernity !@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if u ever see a AVIA b 35 i say damn it looks like a spit !!!
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I was willing to let this thread go back to its topic but...
Dowding you seem to take great strides to accuse anyone who mentions germans as nazi hero worshippers.
A slight exaggeration - let me point you to this remark (made twice BTW):
I have no problem with the 'Nazi-pilots' as you put it - I respect those that grudgingly 'did what they had to do' and I admire those that were openly anti-Nazi.
How does that tally with me accusing 'anyone who mentions germans as nazi hero worshippers'? Surely I'm then guilty as charged too?
If we are talking who is the best fighter pilot etc politics dont come into it...
Granted. But to divorce a man's beliefs from a man's actions is puerile (especially in a conflict full of contradicting ideologies such as WW2). I personally do not admire people for the things they do - I admire them for the spirit in which they were done.
Dowding Ram isnt asking you to admire his beliefs and he has stated it clearly.Stop riding his back will you?
I'm sorry but I don't see your point here. Especially looking at the last paragraph of your post.
If i say i like the stuka you pipe up angrily calling me a nazi,I of course am extremely offended and start calling you names.this turns the BB into a playground and you(among others (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) are the cause.
Come on Hazed! So my definition of a nazi is someone who likes German aircraft? Absolute rubbish and you know it.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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some 1 sold my country to safe his tiny island arse at that time Ceskolovensko army waz maybe second after Germany in Arms modernity !@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I started by writing quite a viscious post, but I don't think that is fair. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can take your post two ways (bearing in mind where you are posting from):
1) You are Czech and are incandescent with rage that somehow Britain 'sold-out' your country
2) You are French and are incandescent with rage that somehow Britain 'sold-out' your country
While you clear that up perhaps consider this:
If you want to blame anyone (and bring an iota of sense to your opinions) blame the Germans. Even that would be a stupid thing to do, but it would be at least a step in the right direction.
Perhaps also read something about the years prior to the war, the mood in Britain regarding foreign affairs generally and Hitler in particular. Also look into the Munich treaty of 1938 which ceded the Sudetenland to Germany and the reasoning behind this (I'll give you a clue: it has something to do with Versailles and the proportion of the population that was German).
Thanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 05-08-2001).]
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Friggin ppl man. Downing if you can't remove someone's beliefs from their actions then so be it. But you've obviously seen not everyone has that functionality problem.
I my eyes ability is far removed from beliefs. Jesus was a Carpenter but couldn't hang dry wall worth a damn! Pointless....yes....same as hijacking this thread...
geez...
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Downding ?????? Sudet majority population >? HUH u have damn no idea how europe looks in ethnik groups even today
idont like when the Blody human history going painted pink and glorious
history is full of shame
and what is your problem about where i em living now ?
stay cool man i dont target any 1 in AH about this just a litle fact they trayed to win some time to rearm and they sacrificed half europe for this
diplomat are sux (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
and dont forget STay cool ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Wingnut, choosing Jesus is a bad example. If I remember rightly he taught that actions were meaningless without consideration of the motives behind those actions. Didn't he use the Jewish priests as an example? He said they would give to the poor just to 'keep up appearances' and for no other reason.
I'm not a Christian, but I think he had a point.
As for hi-jacking this thread - who cares? It was hi-jacked before I entered it and I was prepared to leave it until Hazed made a post that needed an answer.
Minus, I'll post some statistics about population of the Sudetenland in 1938 later. I think you'll be surprised. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Secondly, the reason why I asked where you are from, is that I was trying to work out which country Britain apparently 'sold out'. France or Czechoslovakia?
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As the following words stated...pointless....exactly the meaning of our post Downing. If you, karnak or whoever wants to talk about anything but aircraft/vehicles then take it to the O club.
I could care less if Rudel was Jesus or Anton LeVay, that man was a good stick and a good soldier....his personal beliefs mean absolutely nothing when talking about his skill as a pilot.
And Yes Cit..I'm anxiously awaiting a Stuka (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 05-09-2001).]
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Geez.. if the nazis would be ruling now instead of republicans, conservativs whatever... we'd be talking of all those crappy democrat and evil commie pilots.
..its just about that who wins and lets all the hype brainwash people to believe that the lost one was just and only pure evil.
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Well, the Nazis were evil. There is no question about that.
[This message has been edited by Nimits (edited 05-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by Nimits:
Well, the Nazis were evil. There is no question about that.
[This message has been edited by Nimits (edited 05-09-2001).]
So were the commies, but yet they just keep whining only about nazis...
they're not even talking of japanese...
Japanese lost as well as Germans, but im wondering, why do nazis get all the credit, when japs werent much better?
There im also wondering whats up with people being so quiet about things that happend in soviet union.. communists have almost done the same thing as nazis did.
I just don't get idea of this "nazis are the only ones to whine about".
Note: im not saying that nazis werent bad or so, just wondering how people only keeps whining of the nazis.
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A few thoughts before I disappear back to AGW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"War is all cruelty, and there is no use in trying to reform it; the crueller it is, the sooner it is ended. War is Hell." W.T. Sherman, 1865
"It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of the deed could have done better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows the great enthusiasms and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievment, and at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.
His place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt, 1898
We must make war as we must; not as we would like.
Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915
All of the above are quoted in "The Bomber War" by Robin Neillands, which examines the military and moral aspects regarding Arthur Harris and the Allied bomber offensive. Highly recommended if one has a serious interest in the facts and issues, rather than just an interest in a shouting match. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Two minutes searching on Google found the indictments against the defendents at Nuremberg.
Part of the indictments against Goering et al included the following:
"in that the defendants planned, prepared, initiated, and waged wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances."
"including as typical and systematic means by which the wars were prosecuted, murder, ill-treatment, deportation for slave labor and for other purposes of civilian populations of occupied territories"
"Throughout the period of their occupation of territories overrun by their armed forces the defendants, for the purpose of systematically terrorizing the inhabitants, murdered and tortured civilians, and ill-treated them, and imprisoned them without legal process."
"The murders and ill-treatment were carried out by divers means, including shooting, hanging, gassing, starvation, gross overcrowding, systematic under-nutrition, systematic imposition of labor tasks beyond the strength of those ordered to carry them out, inadequate provision of surgical and medical services, kickings, beatings, brutality and torture of all kinds, including the use of hot irons and pulling out of fingernails and the performance of experiments by means of operations and otherwise on living human subjects. In some occupied territories the defendants interfered in religious matters, persecuted members of the clergy and monastic orders, and expropriated church property. They conducted deliberate and systematic genocide, viz., the extermination of racial and national groups, against the civilian populations of certain occupied territories in order to destroy particular races and classes of people and national, racial, or religious groups, particularly Jews, Poles, and Gypsies and others."
"Such murder and ill-treatment took place in concentration camps and similar establishments set up by the defendants, and particularly in the concentration camps set up at Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Breendonck, Grini, Natzweiler, Ravensbruck, Vught, and Amersfoort, and in numerous cities, towns, and villages, including Oradour-sur-Glane, Trondheim, and Oslo."
Area bombing appears to have been the least of Goerings worries.
R4M, I presume that this is why Harris and Le May were not on trial.
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In service before 1944?
No jet engines?
A sitting duck?
The Ju-87 in AH? Naaaaahh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Off back to WB to fly a Stuka. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cya all. <S>
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..its just about that who wins and lets all the hype brainwash people to believe that the lost one was just and only pure evil.
So all sides were equally 'evil'? How very convenient.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
So all sides were equally 'evil'? How very convenient.
Just thinking it otherway around as if.. hypotetic speculating.
For example: if nazis would of win, then we would be whining about yanks, how they did bomb the cities and kill millions, instead of whining how nazis killed millions in the holocaust.
blaablaablaa..
Im sure you get the point all by yourself, you can't be that ignorant.
Well, we could as well take living example..
In Soviet Union, when it did still exist, people were taught hard that americans are evil and yaddayadda.. (do I need to say more? or has someone missed something?)
During same time, during the cold war times, there were some level of hysteria towards communists in USA and people were taught that communists are evil.
(and who bothers to ever talk about their own mistakes?)
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I understand the point, but I believe it is invalid in light of the facts of history (of which I am a student, literally).
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Originally posted by Nimits:
I understand the point, but I believe it is invalid in light of the facts of history (of which I am a student, literally).
..and the next point, which im more interested in?
*why* there isn't talking of the work that communists and japanese did?
We talk about the one evil, but we leave couple other evil ones be forgotten?
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S!
The morons and Nazi apologists like R4M really need to read some actual HISTORY.
The Nazi leadership and their various administrators drew up detailed plans which were for the future of Europe and Western Asia.
These plans called for the EXTERMINATION of entire races. Not only the Jewish race, but also the Slavs etc. All to be replaced by well scrubbed blonde little Aryans. The inferior races were to be used as slaves until enough German colonists could take over their former countries. Yes we are talking Hundreds of millions planned for the death camps. It would have made the Holocaust look like a Sunday picnic.
Comparing that type of ideology to the Western Allies is a joke. Even Stalin wasn't Racist enough to think particular races of people deserved complete extermination. (no I'm not a Stalin fan)
If Hitler had won the war, the world would be a dark place.
Compare his plans to what the Western Allies did. They funnelled MILLIONS of dollars into the defeated countries to allow them to rebuild successful democratic societies which are now the biggest competitors facing the U.S. or other Allies. If British and U.S. Leaders really were War Criminals, why behave so nicely when they had the Germans and Japanese at their mercy?????
You're lucky you don't live in 1930's Germany. You'd be euthanized for displaying "untermensch" tendencies.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait:
If British and U.S. Leaders really were War Criminals, why behave so nicely when they had the Germans and Japanese at their mercy?????
They did remember what happened last time they acted like that?
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Note: im not saying that nazis werent bad or so, just wondering how people only keeps whining of the nazis.
They set up INDUSTRIAL MASS MURDER FACTORIES, they were not satisfied with just shooting and starving people.
They also imported millions of people from other countries specifically to murder them in killing centers.
They didn't just loot their victims, they even harvested commodities from the corpses on an industrial scale.
In the history of all the 20th Century bloodbaths, these crimes will be the unique and eternal legacy of Nazi Germany.
Oh, they also started the worst war in human history.
Back on topic, I think the Stuka would be a great addition to AH.
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In Soviet Union, when it did still exist, people were taught hard that americans are evil and yaddayadda.. (do I need to say more? or has someone missed something?)
Fishu, I take it that was what they told you at your (Finninsh?) school cuz I don't remember being taught any such nonsense...
Back to the topic - bring the Stuka in and some early war planes as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lynx did they teach in history lessons about fights in Suomussalmi and Raattentie (Road of Raate) where over 20000 russian soldiers died (44. and 163.Division of 9th.Army).
Howabout reasons why Russia invaded Finland? (Does Mainila ring a bell?)
Its not always what they teach but what they "forgot" to teach and why.
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Stalin was not racist enough?...Pardon me, I think he's up there with ol' A.H. in the racist circle. Read the mass removal of East Russian people to Siberia and the deep hatred Stalin also felt for the Jews.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
9./JG54
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/squads/approved/kirin.gif)
Besser tot als rot!
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Originally posted by Montezuma:
They set up INDUSTRIAL MASS MURDER FACTORIES, they were not satisfied with just shooting and starving people.
They also imported millions of people from other countries specifically to murder them in killing centers.
They didn't just loot their victims, they even harvested commodities from the corpses on an industrial scale.
In the history of all the 20th Century bloodbaths, these crimes will be the unique and eternal legacy of Nazi Germany.
Oh, they also started the worst war in human history.
Perhaps you understood wrong?
So, why there isnt whining of japs and communists?
Japanese made people be slaves and die in work, same what communists did.
Communists have done about same as nazi germans Gestapo - just a word for wrong ears and your relatives will never see you again.
and so on.. well, so, why all lack against communists and japs?
Im NOT saying that "oh how sweet those nazis were, they were so nice people".
so quit telling me about those things which I know and tell me something that I don't know - wheres all the whine of brutalities of other countries?
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Seems everyone forgot about the mass execution of jews by the russians as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Answer this one: Why were Japanese doctors not tried for crimes against humanity and guess which country gave them work?
There will always be eveil in this world, please do not point your finger at just one, but look around and you will be amazed at what you uncover.
I guess the slaying of innocent Indian woman and children was ok by the american settlers as well? Or stalin knocking off a good portion of the officer corp? These are good crimes? I think a lot of you need a dose of reality and come to the facts that they were all bad, no one being worse then the other. Maybe the numbers might construe the truth but the fact's remain. They all commited murder!
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*why* there isn't talking of the work that communists and japanese did?
Maybe it's because you are Finnish that you yourself are not aware of the crimes against humanity committed by the Japanese.
Because I'll tell you this now, the countries of the Commonwealth and Britain remember the POW camps full of starving British troops.
I suggest also you read 'The Rape of Nanking' or accounts of the attack on Hong Kong (which occured on the same day as the attack on Pearl Harbour).
Institutionalised rape of Chinese women (and Western women too).
So basically don't project your ignorance onto other people and claim they know nothing about the crimes Japan caused.
Regarding Stalin - I've read several books on him and his 'methods'. They were truly, truly awful. His secret service was as bad as the Gestapo. But that doesn't get away from the fact that the Nazi's institutionalized the extinction of whole races. They viewed the Russians as Untermenschen and treated them that way from day one of Barbarossa.
I really don't see the point you are making. Maybe it stems from being Finnish and having the dubious honour of belonging to a country that allied itself with the Nazis, but maybe not. I personally don't think Finland had much of a choice - it was sink or swim and they had to accept the first hand offered to them. But for god's sake, it does not warrant being so defensive about the Nazi's war record.
Answer this one: Why were Japanese doctors not tried for crimes against humanity and guess which country gave them work?
For the same reason that HUGE numbers of German Nazi doctors were accepted with open arms by the British, Americans and the Russians - with no trial and no questions asked.
I think a lot of you need a dose of reality and come to the facts that they were all bad, no one being worse then the other.
The British were bad as the Germans? The Americans were bad as the Japanese? How can you believe this?
I'm sorry, but that is complete and utter rubbish. It's absolutely a Nazi apologist argument. That somehow 'all sides were as bad as each other'.
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The standards set by the Geneva Convention were, in most cases, totally ignored by the Americans and French in relation to their treatment of German prisoners-of-war. The French deliberately starved many of their POWs in order to force them to join the French Foreign Legion. Thousands of Legionaires who fought in the Viet Nam conflict were Germans handed over by the Americans to the French in 1945/46 to work as slave labourers in the rebuilding of France's war damaged cities. Conditions in the French camps were just as bad if not worse than in the American camps. It is estimated that at least 167,000 German soldiers died in French captivity between 1945 and 1948.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html)
Lesson is no one was innocent.
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Dowding please read this a little closer.
These are good crimes? I think a lot of you need a dose of reality and come to the facts that they were all bad, no one being worse then the other. Maybe the numbers might construe the truth but the fact's remain. They all commited murder!
ALl crimes consisting of both sides are heinous. How am I wrong on this assumption? Because I stated that all sides were murderers? Because its bad if the germans killed 6 million jews, but its ok if the Japanese killed only a few hundred thousand chinese? Truly blind are you to the insight as to what I was saying.
All teh crimes were commited, maybe some worse then others but that is what they were crimes. How you can categorize them and say oh well this one was a lil worse then that one lets just forget about this other one and place it nice and hidden under this carpet. I am not stating the germans were right or wrong, hell even the japanese or whoever. They did the crimes they should do the time. Sorry for the pun on words there. basically Dowding you just stated that the Nazi's agenda yes it was to exterminate a race which is bad, but how is raping and torturing an entire population of a country not warranted on the same degree?
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Dowding,
I don't understand how you make up those points when thats not the point here.
Why all the fuzz is only about the nazi horrors?
Why 99% of the time I see talking of the nazis but aside that it seems that communists or japs werent even bad ones at all? (or few others)
Yet you go on with some crap that is irrelevant and go to insult me!
I really don't see the point you are making. Maybe it stems from being Finnish and having the dubious honour of belonging to a country that allied itself with the Nazis, but maybe not.
[/b]
That was an insult, without any reason.
im waiting you to apologize this immediatly.
I have not insulted anyone, nor been for the nazi side either.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 05-10-2001).]
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I see no point to continue this discussion anymore.
Dowding that one sentence tell's more about yourself than you might notice.
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Its a good thing I am not from Christmas Island, wouldn't want to have a label like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
I am done on this thread, I tried showing a perspective from all sides and it still was construed to be pro nazism. Dunno guess I will go yell at some canadians because they have funny names for coins. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Read the sentence after that, Staga and Fishu. It's in the same paragraph and I'll quote it in its fullness:
Maybe it stems from being Finnish and having the dubious honour of belonging to a country that allied itself with the Nazis, but maybe not. I personally don't think Finland had much of a choice - it was sink or swim and they had to accept the first hand offered to them.
How is that not crystal clear, regarding my opinion on the matter?
I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused through misunderstanding, and no, I'm not calling you a Nazi. I was just thinking aloud and trying to reason why someone should make the point that the Nazi's actions are somehow 'over-represented'. To me it is completely irrelevant.
Why 99% of the time I see talking of the nazis but aside that it seems that communists or japs werent even bad ones at all? (or few others)
Did you read the start of my last post? In this country the treatment of POWs in the Far East by the Japanese is very nearly as infamous as the name Auschwitz.
Staga - that quote makes some serious claims. In 'most cases' the Geneva Convention was ignored by the Americans and French? Care to tell me where that quote is from? Where are its sources from?
Lesson is no one was innocent.
Oh, that's all right then! Why do we bother trying ANYONE for war crimes then?
AG - I misunderstood your post - I thought you were comparing countries, not crimes.
ALl crimes consisting of both sides are heinous.
True. But I happen to believe institutionalised murder, rape and torture, pre-conceived at the highest level is far more sinister than the actions of some maverick local commander. The result is the same, but the motivations are not.
...but how is raping and torturing an entire population of a country not warranted on the same degree?
To which countries are you refering?
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 05-10-2001).]
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I personally don't think Finland had much of a choice - it was sink or swim and they had to accept the first hand offered to them.
Hmm.. First hand?
As far as I know that was the only hand, Only country which were able to send food, ammos, guns, tanks and planes when Finland fought against Russia. Allies had some nice thoughts '40 thought it needs more than good will to fight against red-army invasion forces.
Fact is that without help from Germany there wouldn't be any free Finland after the war but a country just like Eastern Germany with a puppet government.
Btw German "Ostersee Division" helped Finland to keep its new freedom in 1918 when their landing troops went to Hanko (Small city/harbor west of Helsinki) and helped so called "whites" to defeat "Reds": communists who wished Finland should stay as a part of Russia.
So Germany has helped Finland not just once but twice to keep its freedom. As a matter of fact allies sent fighters and bombers to Russia to help its attack to Finland, Nice isn't is? Thank God Germans were there to help us...
And those atrocities done by all countries involved in WW2:
Its childish to think that some country and its soldiers didn't do any of such things. War is hell and when soldiers are scared, tired and full of fear then the "Shit hits the fan".
Another nice quote:
In 1942 the Allied bombings of Germany had begun, and by 1943 the Allies were bombing German cities. The industrial cities on the Rhine were the first to be attacked. In the last week of July, Hamburg was torn apart by firestorms caused by the bombings, killing 50,000. By 1944 the allied bombings were directed against Normandy and targets in France, and by the summer of that year the Allies were able to bomb Germany at will. In Dresden, 135,000 Germans died in a bombing raid, even more than the first impact of Hiroshima.
Military target? I don't think so.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/public_html/massacres.html (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/public_html/massacres.html) http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/public_html/facts.html (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/public_html/facts.html)
Yeah, toejam happened ALL over the world. Better just hope that won't happen ever again.
Every country made atrocities, some more and some less.
So no one was innocent.
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Thank you Staga for that info. Puts a different shade on things sometimes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ya Cit I think the Stuka would be cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Shamus
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Staga: As far as I know that was the only hand....
Fair enough. You obviously weren't aware of the following then:
Winter War:
Aircraft in Finnish combat units:
36 Fokker DXXI - Netherlands - occupied by Germany, 1940
10 Bulldog - Great Britain - at war with Germany, 1939
14 Blenheim - Great Britain
Additional AC received during and after the war:
30 Gloster Gladiator - Great Britain
33 Fiat G50 - Italy
30 Moraine 406 MS - France - at war with Germany, 1939
44 Brewster 239 - USA - at war with Germany, 1941
10 Hawker Hurricane - Great Britain
Source: "Double Fighter Knight" Ilmari Juutilainen
Bearing in mind that most of the above countries were at war themselves at the time, against Germany.
In the Continuation War of 1941, Finland threw in its lot with Germany and advanced to its pre-Winter War borders with the USSR. Apart from the fact that it was now allied with Germany, seaborne supplies to Finland from, say, Britain, might have been hampered by air and submarine attacks from, you guessed it, Germany.
Thank God Germans were there to help us...
Indeed
[This message has been edited by aircav (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Geez.. if the nazis would be ruling now instead of republicans, conservativs whatever... we'd be talking of all those crappy democrat and evil commie pilots.
..its just about that who wins and lets all the hype brainwash people to believe that the lost one was just and only pure evil.
Actually if Adolf and company had pulled it off all the people that disaggreed with you in this thread would be having thier bones broken and thier feet torched right now.
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AirCav you can be sure I know every plane FAF did use.
Read your list of planes again and think what kind of planes they were. You might notice they were already old-fashion,under powered and worst of all there were too few of them.
Do you think GB or USA were capable to send all those little things like P-51s, Spits, Shermans, AA-cannons and boat-loads of food etc if Finland asked them from Allies instead from Germany?
Do you think Soviet Union would stay in its side of border after armistice '40?
Seaborne supplies from GB?
I always thought USA was keeping Britannias head above water with fuel, food and supplies they send.
Are you saying Brits would happily send some of those to Finland, knowing some their planes would then be without fuel and ammo and people starving because some of those ships continued their trip to Finland?
Russians sure would liked that?
So there were quite many holes weren't there AirCav?
Thank god for Germany and its help.
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Ah, no Staga!
You see the TRUTH is that Russia was trying to send you all kinds of military help!
Thousands and thousands of rifles being hand carried across the border, tanks being ferried over etc etc, all to help you fight communism!
But all it takes is one misunderstanding and...
hehe.
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S!
This Myth about the Allies starving German prisoners of war is one which has been disproven by a number of serious enquiries, including those led by the German Gov't.
As far as the Germans who enlisted in the French Foreign Legion, many of them were ex-Waffen SS who were looking for a way to change their names and escape from their crimes. They needed no encouragement.
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On the same page we have
THE NORMANDY MASSACRES
LE PARADIS
WORMHOUDT
PARIS DEPORTATIONS
ORADOUR-SUR-GLANE
ASCQ
OUTRAGE AT IZIEU
FRAYSSINET
TULLE MURDERS
SAULX VALLEY ATROCITIES
Have been forgotten the murder of hostage at Nantes/Anger/Saumur/Segré and lot of other places I can't enumerate here.
The standards set by the Geneva Convention were, in most cases, totally ignored by the Americans and French in relation to their treatment of German prisoners-of-war.
Perhaps ... well sure in fact...
The French deliberately starved many of their POWs in order to force them to join the French Foreign Legion.
Well I know 2 former german soldier (now french (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and quite old) who were member of the 1st REP and they would have say that to me .I cannot figure how they can be proud to be French if recruted in this condition !
BTW it's just 2 of thousand so it can be true.
Thousands of Legionaires who fought in the Viet Nam conflict were Germans handed over by the Americans to the French in 1945/46 to work as slave labourers in the rebuilding of France's war damaged cities.
What's wrong here ?
I suppose that my granduncle who almost died in a Stalag was just an GUEST of hitler ?
Conditions in the French camps were just as bad if not worse than in the American camps. It is estimated that at least 167,000 German soldiers died in French captivity between 1945 and 1948.
At this time it was hard also for the french people just to simply find enought FOOD !
And lot of german soldier were used to remove mine/explosives on our coast it's a deadly operation which as not ended yet !
btw this post is not intended to negate the what france as done but more to add a bit of context.
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As far as the Germans who enlisted in the French Foreign Legion, many of them were ex-Waffen SS who were looking for a way to change their names and escape from their crimes.
If you ever heard of the massacre of Oradour sur Glane some of the Waffen-SS involved in this tragedie were french (from Alsace) and were found in the "légion étrangére".
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Lynx did they teach in history lessons about fights in Suomussalmi and Raattentie (Road of Raate) where over 20000 russian soldiers died (44. and 163.Division of 9th.Army).
No they didn't - the Winter War was not taught in much detail. Maybe it just got overshadowed by what was to follow? Obviously, for Finland that war was of somewhat higher importance. And no-one, especially under the communist rule, was happy to admit to less then glorious however successful in the end campaign. I take it Finnish teacher didn't dig deep into atrocities committed by Finnish troops against Russian civilians, did he? Finns were hated more then Germans you know...
Howabout reasons why Russia invaded Finland? (Does Mainila ring a bell?)
Its not always what they teach but what they "forgot" to teach and why.
Nope, Mainila does not ring any bells - mind you I didn't major in history. What I do know is that Stalin needed a buffer zone around Leningrad. He wanted it, troops came and took it regardless of the brave fight the Finns put up trying to defend their country. Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border.
It may hurt your national pride and everything but you stood no better chance to fight off that offensive than Poland vs German army - in fact Polish odds were better.
This topic is so much OT now that it needs to be moved... I'm very much interested in finding out more about Winter War but can we discuss it in the OT?
I find it very peculiar that in 1918 Poland and Finland were given independence by Lenin's government after being part of Russian Empire for yonks. I couldn't find out why Austria is the only country occupied by Soviet troops after the war where communist rule was not "helped" along and the troops simply withdrew leaving Austrians be - the list goes on...
In this topic Cit opened a can of worms. Personally, I think that Rudel unbeknowingly helped Allied cause. He glamourized Stuka - an obsolete, poorly defended plane with abysmal performance and therefore kept better planes from being developed and sent to the frontline units. He glamourised Stuka and young German pilots died in their droves trying to follow his success stories... Stukas were withdrawn from service wherever it was possible due to enormous combat losses and yet the legendary Rudel helped to deliver "lambs" to the slaughter. His personal success notwithstanding his were Pyrrhic victories...
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Actually if Adolf and company had pulled it off all the people that disaggreed with you in this thread would be having thier bones broken and thier feet torched right now.
That was quick, short & simple comparison, not to be meant to read literally and think so.
I do expect that people does have brains to think themself, without needing longer descriptions.
simply: theres always propaganda that tries to lead people to think against or for something.
What comes to german / finn ally, there was one reason why not the british or french didn't ally: french was invaded and brits only route to finland was sea route - which was heavily swarmed up with U-boats and other kind of hostile ships, ready to sink their ships travelling to aid finns.
You'd need a convoy to even get past Denmark.
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Lynx couple good sites.
First is Finnish so it may be pure propaganda or then not.: http://www.winterwar.com/Mainpage.htm (http://www.winterwar.com/Mainpage.htm) http://home.interserv.com/~tazio/7dSuomu.htm (http://home.interserv.com/~tazio/7dSuomu.htm)
I would like to see some facts about this sentence: atrocities committed by Finnish troops against Russian civilians.
Most of the battles were fighted in Finnish territory so guess Finns killed their own people?.
Anyway I have photos about what Russian Desants did in border villages. Dead women, old men, childs etc.
Some statistic from winterwar
Finns:22 800 dead and 43 600 wounded.
Russians: at least 90 000 dead and 200 000 wounded.
Thought Khrushchev said Soviet Union lost over one million ppl in winterwar.
"We tried to put our own troops on skis, too,
but it wasn't easy for ordinary, untrained Red
Army soldiers to fight on skis. We started
intensively to recruit professional sportsmen.
There aren't many around. We had to bring them
from Moscow and the Ukraine as well as
Leningrad. We gave them a splendid send off...
Poor fellows, they were ripped to shreds. I don't
know how many came back alive."
Nikita Khrushchev
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http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/scanlink/nornotes/vol3/articles/provis.htm (http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/scanlink/nornotes/vol3/articles/provis.htm)
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I guess no one here really reads the point people are trying to make .Almost every time you bring something like this guy was a Nazi, a Communist, an Allied mass murderer it just doesn't make a point everyone made horrendous crimes against humanity during that war EVERYONE! There's no black and white , more like grey. If we would all just go ooh you fly the Nazi planes ooh you fly the communist planes then we wouldn't have sim to play with would we?
almost every post I've seen puts all the blame on the Nazis yeah they we're bad but so was everyone else because we admire someone's ability as a warrior doesn't necessarily mean we love what that person stood for so you see how this discussion about Rudel the warrior is compared to Rudel the person or his beliefs that's just something people here can't do . Heck maybe they haven't reached the maturity of mind to separate the two jeez!
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
9./Jg54
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/squads/approved/kirin.gif)
Besser tot als rot!
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Lynx - Stalin and Lenin were chalk and cheese - that might be why the foreign policy changed.
There is some evidence to suggest Lenin was killed by Stalin, and his illness was definitely held against him and used to isolate him from speaking out about Stalin and his 'tactics'.
The time from the Russian Revolution to WW2 is very interesting - especially how Stalin rose from 'just another revolutionary' to become the General Secretary of the Communist Party. Unlike Hitler, he never had a close cabal of advisors - those that he did have would only last a few years before being chopped by the new generation; a few years later, that generation would be 'chopped' by a newer breed.
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Russia was first country who recognized Finland as a free country 4.1.1918 (by Lenin) and at same days countries like France (Didn't wait what Lenin decide) and Sweden (Did wait what was Lenin's opinion). GB and USA wanted to see what happens in Russia before they recognized Finland as a free country.
So Lenin was a guy who gaved us our freedom thought in those times he did have his hands full of work already. Guess he was happy when he get rid of us (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Anyway in that time there were already a ships carrying guns and ammunities to Finland to help in fight against occupier. A small draw-back was when S.S Grafton went to the rocks and sunk with load of rifles and ammunition. Part of its cargo were saved thought most of those supplies still lie in bottom of the sea.
Another part of useless history (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
... Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border.
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Your comment is as intelligent as saying: "Had Hitler wanted England - they would have marched all the way to Scotish border." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
That is exactly what Satlin wanted. He had an agreement with Hitler to divide the Eastern Europe. Finland and Baltic countries belonged to him.
One of the reasons Stalin agreed to end the war was the scare of Brits and other Allies coming to help Finland. That would not have happened though. It would have taken months for any help to arrive and Sweden did not give them a permission to pass through. In any case this "Help Finland" plan was mostly fake. Most troops would have stayed in Sweden and occupied the Iron mines which provided Iron for Germany.
Another reason is that they had got their butts kicked quite hard already for what they gained.
It may hurt your national pride and everything but you stood no better chance to fight off that offensive than Poland vs German army - in fact Polish odds were better.
Please share your secret knowledge of the chances. Finland remained, Poland was occupied. Poland had no chances, it is true. Soviets were attacking Poland at the same time from east. And dont you dare say that Soviets went in there only to help (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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BlauKreuz
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border
Of course you did know Stalin already tryed to do that didn't you?
Sorry but it seems like your knowledge about history has some holes in it.
26.11.1939 15:00 village of Mainila in Russia was shelled by few artillery granades and grenade launchers. That gave Russia a reason to attack to Finland 30.11.1939. So it took four days from Red Army to attack agains us.
Funniest thing was that nearest Finnish artilleries were 50km from border.
I wonder what kind of cannons those were with 50km trajectory?
44. and 163. Divisions of 9:th Army tryed to run thru Finland to Oulu thus cutting the land in halfs. They found small difficulties to continue when both those divisions were sweeped away.
Here are some pics from Raatteen tie (http://www.lukio.palkane.fi/raate/raate.html) where those Divisions found their destiny (About 22000-23000 Red Army soldiers died there when Finnish losses were less than 1000. Pics are taken couple days after battle and some of them are quite unpleasant to look.
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Just few links
http://www.raatteenportti.fi/english/history1.htm (http://www.raatteenportti.fi/english/history1.htm) http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/CSIPUBS/Chew/CHEW.htm (http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/CSIPUBS/Chew/CHEW.htm) http://www.feldgrau.com/wwar.html (http://www.feldgrau.com/wwar.html) http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/mirror/sa-int/tstkentat.html (http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/mirror/sa-int/tstkentat.html) http://www.suomussalmi.fi/en/info/sights/talvisot/taistelu.htm (http://www.suomussalmi.fi/en/info/sights/talvisot/taistelu.htm)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Let's discuss it in OT, OK? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
****
A few years ago Barneys were attacking remote Green field with Ju87s escorted by 109s - in early days of RPS it was a blast with SpitIs vs Stuka's/109s. One of my best memories of 5 years in WB that fight is. Bring on the early war planeset! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Staga,
My point, if it was lost, was that the Finnish AF during the winter war was composed almost solely of Allied types, contradicting your assertion that no one but Germany sent aid to the Finnish.
My second point was that the Allied nations sent supplies to Finland even though they were at war themselves, with Germany. They presumably sent what could be spared, and from your stance I am sure you would concede that the national defense of their own countries had to come first in their considerations.
Thirdly, some of the more advanced aircraft you mention, such as the P-51, were not available in 1940. Spitfires for export would not have been conceivable in 1939/40, for the reasons I mention above. Worth noting that the first German aircraft supplied to Finland was the Bf-109G, not the E, not the F. The 109G was the first variant that Germany thought that it had enough of to consider sending to Finland.
After Barbarossa, Finland had decided to ally itself with Germany to regain its lost territory. In view of this alliance, the possibility of further Allied aid to Finland was clearly remote.
In summary, I would contend that the relative paucity of Allied aid to Finland was likely a direct result of every available aircraft being needed for the war with Germany. It was a problem that was both caused by Germany, and to which Germany offered the only solution for Finland.
regards,
aircav
[This message has been edited by aircav (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Originally posted by aircav:
...Finnish AF during the winter war was composed almost solely of Allied types, contradicting your assertion that no one but Germany sent aid to the Finnish.
Germany actually didn't help Finland at all in the Winter War. Germany was allied with Russia (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Also unlike the western world their press used the info from Soviet papers when telling about Winter War.
My second point was that the Allied nations sent supplies to Finland even though they were at war themselves, with Germany. They presumably sent what could be spared, and from your stance I am sure you would concede that the national defense of their own countries had to come first in their considerations.
Uhhmmm.. What did they actually send? I know of 13 British volunteers who were learning to ski in Finland, but never got close to the front (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Western countries sent a lot of sympathy and promises of troops and military aid. They DID send humanitarian aid though. This sympathy was one of the main reasons why USA (unlike England) never declared war to Finland later (1941-44) when Finland and Germany were allied even though Russia demanded it.
Well, to be honest, they did give some planes to FAF. Brits sold Finland 20 Gloster Gladiators and gave 10 more free. France gave 30 Morane Saulnier 406s and Brits sold 12 Hurricanes but both these late in the war. Hurricanes did not make it to the front in time. France also gave 6 Caudrons and Brits sold 23 Blendheims.
France and England were in war with Germany at that time, yes, but only on the paper. Germany attacked France only months after Winter War had already ended.
Practically the only fighter type in FAF was Fokker D XXI (Holland)... they were bought before the war like some 10 or so Bristol Bulldogs.
After Barbarossa, Finland had decided to ally itself with Germany to regain its lost territory. In view of this alliance, the possibility of further Allied aid to Finland was clearly remote.
True about the aid. Actually they allied already several months before Barbarossa. Finland joined the fight 4 days after it began, after Soviets bombed Finnish cities. Finish forces had been mobilized earlier though, so that was just a technicality (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
In summary, I would contend that the relative paucity of Allied aid to Finland was likely a direct result of every available aircraft being needed for the war with Germany. It was a problem that was both caused by Germany, and to which Germany offered the only solution for Finland.
Their planes were not YET needed, but they wanted to spare them. Luckily USA agreed to sell Finland Brewsters which arrived only after the war. They became the spine of FAF in 1941-1943.... "Pearls of the Sky". Germany did not sell Me109s to Finland until 1943.
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Sorry for replying these things in a Stuka thread... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) YES, give us Stuka for AH!!!!... tired of having to use alied planes for tank busting.
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BlauKreuz
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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almost every post I've seen puts all the blame on the Nazis yeah they we're bad but so was everyone else...
Glasses, this is exactly the kind of post that I find so annoying. You're basically saying that the Allies were as bad as the Nazis.
I just don't understand how you can come to this conclusion, considering how the Allied atrocities pale into insignificance beside those of the Nazis.
The Allies didn't start want a war - there was so much to lose. They didn't engineer the extinction of a race of people or enslave half of Europe. They didn't want any of that, and you can see this in how Chamberlain desperately wanted to avoid war. He was a mere relfection of the mood of the British people at the time.
Moreover, the Allies saved Germany from Nazism.
Yet you still maintain that the Nazi's actions were mirrored by the Allies exactly. This is not only an apologist argument (not a personal attack, but a statement of fact) but is disproven by even the most cursory look into WW2 atrocities.
BTW, long before Germany was crippled and on the verge of losing the war, LW planes were routinely over England hitting both military and civilian targets. And I'm not talking about mixed civilian/strategic targets like the RAF over Dresden. Here's an example (from 'Hawker Typhoon: The Combat History') and is a direct translation:
Fighter-Bomber Report No.1 - 26.1.43
8 Focke-Wulf 190 (start 1515 hours)
Harrasment attack on Kingsbridge. Principal target not attacked due to change in wind direction. Alternative target 1600 hrs low-level attack on Loddiswell. Bombing concentrated on local dwellings. The local church almost completely destroyed. Also cannon attack on Loddiswell.
On leaving area, more buildings north-east of Start Point were bombarded with cannon fire.
This was routine enough to be put in the mission de-brief, unlike some inpromptu hush-hush strafing of German civilians by a bored (and slightly unhinged) P-51 pilot.
No side is innocent; but some were a damned sight more innocent than others.
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Dowding,
IMO, hes saying that others were also bad, not "as bad".
Theres a slight difference in saying it, but whole different meaning.
So I just must wonder your way of translating this saying as if they were as bad as nazis, when I don't see such thing said.
It is not even basically so, what you're saying.
If you try to claim allies as a honest side, then I would say you're wrong. (BUT, see that im nowhere saying that they'd been as bad)
This was routine enough to be put in the mission de-brief, unlike some inpromptu hush-hush strafing of German civilians by a bored (and slightly unhinged) P-51 pilot.
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..and the bombers bombing cities? (as I recall, bombs are a bit different threat than a P-51)
Now I were following your way of talking.. and I could already guess what you would be saying to this.
No side is innocent; but some were a damned sight more innocent than others.
[/b]
..and yet you can't just admit that they did some bad as well, but instead try to presume everything that others say, as if they would be in worst meaning?
Try to think as you read, please.. nobody is saying here that allies and nazis were equally bad nor that allies would been worse.
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Gosh, I do so love seeing the particular personalities in this thread going for each other's throats, so to speak. Amusing to see who's taking which position.
I do think it should be in the O-Club, however.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Naah, I quit street-fights at summer -87 when my bones started brokeing.
I know I should wait my friends to came before starting to fight against 2 fellows alone but it seemed fun then. Not so fun anymore when I walked back from hospital with paper which said "Clavicula crushed from distal end".
btw it looks funny in rontgen pic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fishu - of course I recognise that Allies committed atrocities. I've never said otherwise. But compared to those perpetrated by the Nazis, they are a drop in the ocean. THAT has been my point all along.
And as a consequence of this, to say 'the Nazis were bad, but so was everyone else' is basically saying that the Allies WERE as bad as the Nazis. It is NOT the same as saying 'the Nazis committed atrocities, but so did the Allies'. The latter is a statement of fact, the former is a value judgement which is not supported by the facts.
I hope that makes it clearer. English is my first language and it is hard to explain, so I don't know how easy it is to understand if you are Finnish. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKASTUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA STUKA.
ooPS..did I just hijack this thread?
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Can I have Hs126 along with the Stuka? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Doeding do you see how again you have turned this into a fight? always nazi-commies-blah blah...im here to play a game.If i wanted to read about the history of the war id rather read a book than your explanations.This forum is about the planes (granted mostly) and if anyone wants a plane added then fair enough.so he wants rudels ju87 so what?
fishu am i wrong or does he totally miss your point over and over?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)