Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wolfala on July 05, 2009, 04:20:06 PM
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Yup, its that time again. My AMD 64 X2 4400 needs to go to my wife and her never ending Sims Campaign and Spore exploration efforts. Her 2002 era Dell desktop is way too long in the tooth and frankly, the case is ugly as soup and i'm getting sick of looking at it.
So here's what i'm coming from:
Its been 3 years since I built a box. Have an X2 4400, 2 Geforce 7900 GTX's in SLI, 2 Gig ram, a dump truck of fans and an Abit AN8 32X motherboard. I haven't really been up to speed on developments of the last 3 years but have a general idea of the rig i'm looking to build.
My rig generally gets a mix of FPS like COD, Half Life, FS9/X or something generally graphically intensive with a lot of stuff going on in the background. I'm going to reuse my case since its got 8 fans running in it and I love the damn thing. I'll transplant the guts of whats currently inside into another case for the wife.
I refuse to run Vista or 7 at this point, so if that limits me in RAM options so be it.
My general debate, after being with AMD the last 2 systems - is what is the difference if ANY with the AMD quad core and Intel quad core?
What memory to use on either 1? Whether it ends up being 4 gig or 12 gig.
Graphics i've pretty much settled on a Nvidia GTX 295 since it takes up 1 less slot and a smaller thermal footprint.
Power i've got a 850 Watt supply, so no worries there.
Optical i'd need another drive. I have a DL DVD writer from NEC - think it cost $30 bux and did the job before.
Hard drives - was thinking a WD Raptor 150 Gig as a the system drive, and a bunch of 7200 RPM SATAs for scratch and crap drives
Open questions: Motherboards? Have no idea at this point
Processor - same question as above since the diff between AMD and Intel is a big questionmark.
I'd like to settle on this tonight so I can place the order out before the evening close.
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You do realize the only benefit a quad core CPU brings is if you are using software like Adobe Premier Pro, or Sony Vegas Pro, or some other high end video editing software.
For gaming, you will be better off spending the money on a faster clocked dual core CPU. Which brings you to a quandry. The current Intel Core i7 CPU's are all quad core. The dual core versions of these bad boys is not goin to happen until late this year.
As the i7's are Intel's current kick butt CPU's, you are prety much stuck with a quad core. However, these CPU's do overclock like there is no tomorrow.
Just saying.
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You do realize the only benefit a quad core CPU brings is if you are using software like Adobe Premier Pro, or Sony Vegas Pro, or some other high end video editing software.
For gaming, you will be better off spending the money on a faster clocked dual core CPU. Which brings you to a quandry. The current Intel Core i7 CPU's are all quad core. The dual core versions of these bad boys is not goin to happen until late this year.
As the i7's are Intel's current kick butt CPU's, you are prety much stuck with a quad core. However, these CPU's do overclock like there is no tomorrow.
Just saying.
OK so if you were in my position Skuzz - knowing that there is nothing but Quad Core stuff out there (BTW I do use Vegas a ton and Photoshop like there is no tomorrow) - what MB CPU / Memory combo would u use that would hold over another 2.5 to 3.5 years?
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stay on amd dude, you need all heat this cpu can produce
stay out of SLI its not worth it
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You do realize the only benefit a quad core CPU brings is if you are using software like Adobe Premier Pro, or Sony Vegas Pro, or some other high end video editing software.
For gaming, you will be better off spending the money on a faster clocked dual core CPU. Which brings you to a quandry. The current Intel Core i7 CPU's are all quad core. The dual core versions of these bad boys is not goin to happen until late this year.
As the i7's are Intel's current kick butt CPU's, you are prety much stuck with a quad core. However, these CPU's do overclock like there is no tomorrow.
Just saying.
That statement by Skuzzy is what prompted me to get the 8500 duo-core instead of the quad.....bought that, 2 gigs ram, Asus P5Q-E (has 2 Lan ports), and Karaya gave me his old 8800GT graphics card----with no overclocking, I get 59 frames all day long...sometimes drops into 40's with lotsa stuff low goin on
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That statement by Skuzzy is what prompted me to get the 8500 duo-core instead of the quad.....bought that, 2 gigs ram, Asus P5Q-E (has 2 Lan ports), and Karaya gave me his old 8800GT graphics card----with no overclocking, I get 59 frames all day long...sometimes drops into 40's with lotsa stuff low goin on
:salute
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I'd pick out parts for you, however you didn't list your budget which is really a key factor. If you're going to do this on a dime, the Phenom X2's do quite well since their motherboards aren't quite as expensive as the i7 Intel ones, so you can save up front. Especially if you want to be really cheap and reuse your DDR2 you have since Phenom X2's can use either DDR2 or DDR3, while Intel i7's need DDR3. DDR3 prices are dropping if you were in need of buying it.
You can stick with the older C2D E8xxx series with their nice high clock speed as well. But it depends on your budget.
Here's an artcle from [H] Enthusiast who did some comparisons. You can read the rest of the article for other notes and benchmarks...
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTY0NCwxMSwsaGVudGh1c2lhc3Q=
Which is Best for Me?
All that said about our processors, most of us are not running CrossFireX or SLI video card configurations. Outside of massively CPU-centric games such as FlightSimX, which are far and few between, the world of PC gaming is still very GPU-centric. Many of us are likely never going to be in a position to truly enjoy Core i7 gaming with "lesser" video cards. If a $130 processor can provide enough cycles to respectably push an $800 video card setup, you had best believe it will do wonders with less expensive GPUs. However if you do have a high end video card setup, you are likely wasting it without the proper CPU and proper GHz behind it.
If you are building a gaming rig and are looking to spend $150 to $200 on a graphics card, the AMD Phenom II X3 720 and AMD Phenom II X4 810 offer very good gaming values which will very likely last you through a couple of GPU upgrades. Likewise, mid-level Intel Core 2 Quad processors can offer you the same value at a slightly higher price point. In the middle of the pack, it is hard to go wrong as long as you are a up on which processors are overclocking nicely. But for a budget barn burner, you would be remiss to discount AMD’s Phenom II 720 BE without giving it serious consideration. Looking forward, it is hard for us to suggest a dual core build, because I think you will find limitations in gaming soon. Of course, if you can get your E8500 dual core up to 5GHz, that certainly might be the way to go! If you building a rig that will be gaming, heavily multitasking, and creating and encoding content, the Intel Core i7 is the way to go. The Intel Core i7 is going also allow you a more dynamic upgrade path as faster processors come to market. Also keep in mind if you wish to push your memory footprint out to the 12GB envelope you can do it easily on most Core i7 motherboards. 6GB should do you fine for now though. Those of you that need the memory already know it and don’t need us telling you about it.
The AMD Phenom II has found its just place in the CPU market, and that place is being a tremendous competitor in the middle of the market providing great value. The Intel Core i7 is simply the badass king of the hill that will smoke the tires all the way around the block, and blurs the lines even further between desktop and workstation.
The Bottom Line
We have found that CPU performance can impact your gameplay experience, even with the fastest graphics combination around. With a Radeon HD 4870 X2 CrossFireX configuration powering our games we found the Core i7 920 at 3.6GHz allowed us to get the most performance out of this graphics combo. The AMD Phenom II CPUs simply held this multi-GPU configuration back.
Clock speed is still very important to your gameplay experience. To achieve the highest possible enjoyment from your games you need the fastest CPU clock speed to get the most from your video card. Don’t be too concerned about the number of cores, for now, it is all about CPU frequency. But that will be changing soon.
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Skuzzy may be slightly behind the times on this one. All future major 3d engines will use all four cores in a quad core. Many already do like Valve's Source engine (since Half-Life Episode 2), the Unreal 3 engine and the updated Cry-Tek engine (Crysis). If you're into MS FSX you'll also benefit greatly from the two extra cores.
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Actually, no I am not behind the curve on this one, but do not have time to go into specific details. You are entitled to think what you want as I cannot argue the point right now, so you win.
However, the key here is he will be transcoding video. That makes the quad core a no-brainer. The Core i7, to be specific.
I cannot make any hardware recommendations, but you might PM TilDeath as he has built a number of the Core i7 computers and uses hardware I would use myself as well.
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Actually, no I am not behind the curve on this one, but do not have time to go into specific details. You are entitled to think what you want as I cannot argue the point right now, so you win.
However, the key here is he will be transcoding video. That makes the quad core a no-brainer. The Core i7, to be specific.
I cannot make any hardware recommendations, but you might PM TilDeath as he has built a number of the Core i7 computers and uses hardware I would use myself as well.
Ok good deal. He's in my squad so i'll give him a push. Thanks for the feedback. Would be good to get out of Vegas in under an hour for a 15 minute clip.
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Im working up a quote for one of my gamer customers now. PM me your email and I will send you a copy of the parts list when I'm done with the quote. It will be a Core i7 box.
Oh and BTW, SLI is worth it if configured properly. Problem is most people just plug the cards in and go with it. They never tweak the configuration in the graphics software. SLI is really worth it if you are doing major graphics and video projects. I just got done building a box for work that has 3 PCIe cards for out video conferencing and video production.
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Just be sure to get an aftermarket HSF Wolf. I think TilDeath does that, by default, but be sure to tell him you do video transcoding and you do not want to use the Intel cooler.
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Actually, no I am not behind the curve on this one, but do not have time to go into specific details. You are entitled to think what you want as I cannot argue the point right now, so you win.
However, the key here is he will be transcoding video. That makes the quad core a no-brainer. The Core i7, to be specific.
I cannot make any hardware recommendations, but you might PM TilDeath as he has built a number of the Core i7 computers and uses hardware I would use myself as well.
It's not a competition.
Clock frequency is important to properly run high-end GPUs, but tests done last year by Tom's Hardware showed that a 2.4 Ghz quad matched or outperformed a 3.0 Ghz duo in pure GPU performance. Those were Core 2 processors, not the new i7. However, a high-end enthusiast level duo ($$$) will outperform the big quads; he didn't mention a budget, but I don't think that's the kind of system Wolfala is looking for.
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About to put one together myself. I will try to post the specs in the hardware forum in the next couple of days.
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Hard to go wrong with an e8400, e8500 or I7. I7 if you want bragging rights to a quad core. Although I do wish they would have more programming available for them. I have an e8400 machine and an E8500 machine. I use the e8500 for gaming only. I run a solid 59 to 60 (my monitor refresh rate is 60). I checked the frame rate in the initial take off an FSO event. Still solid. It's OC'd to 3.5 and the VC is overclocked as well.
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The Core i7 is more than just bragging rights if you do a lot of video transcoding work. It is a major step in performance over the Core 2 for those particular operations.
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The Core i7 is more than just bragging rights if you do a lot of video transcoding work. It is a major step in performance over the Core 2 for those particular operations.
rgr, was thinking game play. I don't do much video editing.
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rgr, was thinking game play. I don't do much video editing.
OK, the damage list is as follows:
MSI 790FX-GD70 AM3
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130223 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130223)
AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition Deneb 3.2GHz
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103674 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103674)
EVGA GeForce GTX 295 1792MB 896 (448 x 2)-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130504 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130504)
System Drive: Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136296 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136296)
roadkill drives: Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST3750528AS 750GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148445 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148445)
2x CORSAIR XMS3 DHX 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (4 sticks x 2 GB)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145200 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145200)
Reusing the optical and card readers and case. Greatly appreciated the input everyone
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I would ditch the raptor and get a single 1.5 or 2 Tb single drive, then partition it to system and data partitions.
Raptors access time doesn't give much benefit compared to its price. With a super large drive you get speed and storage space with a good pricepoint.
With the money saved on the raptor I'd upgrade the CPU/mobo to Intel. I guarantee you you'll get better bang for buck that way.
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If you want a fast system drive and have cash to burn, look into SSD's. There are a number of reasonably priced SSD's on the market now.
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If you want a fast system drive and have cash to burn, look into SSD's. There are a number of reasonably priced SSD's on the market now.
+1 I'm running 2 SSD's in a RAID 0 and the speed can't be beat. I would recommend additional drives for storage though.
Also I'm a big fan of EVGA's X58 mobo. I've been running one ever since it was released and it is rock solid and insanely fast
My current rig
EVGA x58 Mobo
Intel I7 920
6GB RAM
Dual 120GB SSD's in RAID 0 (System Partition)
Dual 75GB Raptors in RAID 0 (Storage for System Partition)
Dual 150 GB Velociraptors in Raid 0 (Program Install Partition)
2 1.0 TB drives for Storage
2 DVD burners
Dual EVGA GeForce 260's in SLI
Samsung TOC 26" LCD
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That's a very, very nice system. One question though: Why don't you install your programs on the SSD drive?
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That's a very, very nice system. One question though: Why don't you install your programs on the SSD drive?
They are too small to install everything I need/want so I install the programs/games I use the most on the SSd's and the rest on a seperate array.
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Ah... games.
You run your swap file on the Raptors I presume?
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I've built three machines using Tech Report's system guide.
It doesn't get any easier than this. For me, the biggest pain was coming up to speed on the new gear and the evolving technologies. Mainly because I usually build a machine for myself about once every 4-5 years.
http://techreport.com/articles.x/17102
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Only issue with that link is the use of Antec PSU's and their recommendations.
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Only issue with that link is the use of Antec PSU's and their recommendations.
Had this one for a year. Not statistically significant, but it's been solid.
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Ah... games.
You run your swap file on the Raptors I presume?
I've tested it on the SSD's and the Raptors and I've seen no difference in performance so I left it on the SSD's. With 6GB of RAM the pagefile doesn't get much use.
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It always gets some use, and SSD's have a limited number of writing cycles. I've always been told/read that the swap file should be on a standard plate-type HD so it won't drastically reduce the lifespan of the SSD. Has this changed?
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It always gets some use, and SSD's have a limited number of writing cycles. I've always been told/read that the swap file should be on a standard plate-type HD so it won't drastically reduce the lifespan of the SSD. Has this changed?
Software built into the SSD controller is supposed to spread out the wear over the entire disk, although I'm not sure how effective it is in RAID configs. I'm not really too concerned about the lifespan as I'm sure I'll be replaceing them with something newer/faster well before they would hit the wall. Also I'm pretty sure that the newest SSD's have greatly increased write cycle life, almost to the point of eliminating that as an issue, but I don't have the newest generation SSD yet.
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Cool.