Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: eddiek on January 20, 2001, 08:23:00 AM
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Ok,I finally bit the bullet and decided to fly the 190A5 a bit. So far, I am 8-1 in it, but I know I have not tangled with the REALLY good pilots yet.
I need to know what maneuvers are the 190's strengths, beyond the dive, and what to NOT do in it, besides turn (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
I know there are some AWESOME 190 sticks in AH; give me tips on what I need to do to be successful in this kite..........ya might even make a Luftwobble convert outta me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Depends a bit on what you're facing. I fly the A8 almost exclusively but the a5 is basically an A8 on steroids, so some general rule can be applied.
Rule bumer one: stay fast! Keep speed around 300 or more at all times; zoom up only when you know you're clear. In the A8, this comes almost automatically but tha A5 is a decent turner for a FW so it's tempting to turn just that littl bit extra.
You'll outroll all your opponents ad medium speeds.As speed increases, you have to watch out for the American b&z'ersas they'll easily follow you.
If in trouble, take the fight low-ish. 3k is a good dogfighting alt for the A5 - it accelerates well here and as a good climb rate. Try to keep a few k' - not so mucn for running but as a buffer that'll enable you to build speed and with it a possibility of escape.
If caught low and slow, use the 190's weaknesses to your advantage - snap rolls are highly effective. Beware though; I've augered more than a few times doing it at alts around 100 feet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Effective gun range is around 325 - 350 tops. Aim for deflection shots where you are presented with a big target - the A5 is not a follow around and get a dead 6 shot plane.
Sometimes, surprise your enemy by turning into him. Only do it if you have enough alt to be able to build speed back up again. It's useful when you have wingies and want to buy some time.
Climb when you can, but set default climb speed relatively high, and climb only when you're clear of danger. Keeping speed around 300 is far more effective than giving it up for a few hundred feet of altitude. Excpet to be on the defensive against t&b'ers like the Spit a lot - they'll immelman right onto your butt and try to stay glued. Keeping speed up will allow you to rope them and regain the offensive.
The 190 ain't a good runner, but it is a powerful diver. It has excellent trimming characteristics and good elevator authority. If pursued by 109's, a last ditch move that works is a speedy dive to the ground followed by a violent high g crank upwards. The 109 might auger (seen this a lot of times).
NIK's are best dealt with by keeping speed around 300 and easily outrolling them. Getting slower vs these planes is very dangerous.
P-51's and F4-U's are dangerous - but if you're low, your acceleration and climb rate will give you enough to either hold your own or reverse the situation.
If you're attacking these planes, beware that they can outturn you, outgun you, are faster, have better low speed characteristics and are uglier. Speed up, deflection shots, zooms and keep it going.
That's about it for now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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This is a troll for Creamo right?
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I think that Santa has not driven the A5 enough (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
his advices are quite good, but he is talking about a 190A8, not an A5.
1st: load only 2 20mms. MGFF are worth nothing.
2st: if you have the chance (and the lack of hit % scorepotato feelings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) fire ALL your MG ammo before engaging on combat.
3st: Keep it reasonably fast. Stsanta talks about 300 IAS . I talk about 250 IAS. Over that speed (and at that speed) A5's handling excells
4th: keep on rollin'. You can win close fights using the roll of this plane alone. But roll with a purpose on mind, not only for the sake of "I am in a good roller, so LETS ROLL". I have seen many of those in the 190s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
5: its a good diver. But remember that when the dive ends (on the deck) you are a slow plane (340 on the deck is not to jump on happiness, frankly). So be sure that you are careful on collecting E in the dive.
6: Fire cannons only. The MGs screw the visibility (because the flash) and the aim (because the ballistics). Ideal range under 250 yards, and with the most bullets, the better.
7: Unlike Santa, I think that hte P51 is the easiest meal for the Fw190A5, given that he doesnt run away like a girl (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). You have worse turning, but quite better acceleration and low-medim speeds rollrate.
The F4U is another thing. Turns way better, and usually has what seems the broadside of the USS Excelsior as firepower. if you give him a snapshot you are dead. Use the vertical against this plane, is almost the only thing it can be beaten in a 190.
And remember a golden rule. That you dont outturn 'em doesnt mean you can't OUTMANEOUVER 'EM!. The 190A5 at the proper speeds can turn a defensive combat into an offensive one in seconds against most of the AH's planes.
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I would say that when you are bounced keep your evasives complex but smooth...by this i mean roll and dive/turn, dont just roll, or just dive/turn.Make yourself hard to follow and with luck they will get greedy and waste e trying to match your rolls or overshoot etc.
Of course this is final solution try to remain fast and choose exit before attack and stick to it.
getting greedy in 190 can be fatal but also fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
great plane to evade in.
Wep is your best weapon after those 20mm..dont waste it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i use immelman with rudder/roll in vertical to change exit direction quite a lot and have some success with it.
hazed
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First of all, my advice is to fly A8 if you want to fly 190.
250 MPH as best speed for outrolling anything cutting the power.
300 MPH or even more to enter turning fights, and try to use lag rolls and hi-yoyos instead pure flat turns. If you, due alt, cant do anything but flat turns, dont keep on them for more than 180d. If you dont win in that 180, better extend or use your extra speed to initiate a vertical zoom.
If scissors dont work, try violent neg G maneouvers followed by hi possitive G ones. You can go nose down very quickly in that plane at any speed. You can go nose down abruptly, roll, invert and initiate a neg G ascending loop to end with an inmediate Hi G dive, this is very disturbing for any hi speed con at your six.
Dont forget you have a very good substained climb rate at lo alt, you can outclimb easily any Hog.
The MGFF are worth only if you shoot at the closest range. A good conv for 4x20 configuration is 250 for MGFF and 275 for Mg151/20.
Set maximun convergence for machineguns, and use them only to upset any enemy tracking a friendly. Dont fire them with the cannons.
Keep in mind that this plane is relativerly slow at lo alt, you'll be unable to flee by speed from almost any other plane.
At some speed ranges you'll be able to outturn: 109G10 (any conf), 109G6 (any conf), F4Us, P38s, Yak, P51D, 190A8 (always) and F6F. Any other plane will outturn you at any speed, except Zeke for > 300 mph.
You can use a point of flaps at the end of a vertical zoom to help in a smoother inversion. Dont forget to roll 90d respect the enemy climbing at your six in these zooms.
When diving, try to use the pure vertical, and keep rolling on it, 180d respect the enemy at your six. You can do the most succesful split-S in this plane.
And my last tip: Fly 190A8.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
And my last tip: Fly 190A8.
oh,,,
see what does 15Mph on the deck and two cannons more to the BnZ sissies...they drool and can't recognize a good plane when they see it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
A5 Rules!
(hihihihihi)
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Originally posted by RAM:
oh,,,
see what does 15Mph on the deck and two cannons more to the BnZ sissies...they drool and can't recognize a good plane when they see it :D
A5 Rules!
(hihihihihi)
RAM, pedorra, suppose you know the diference in range between A8 and A5, right? And let me know how many times have you gone with 2x20 against a B17, and how many times have you kill the buff.
There are more important factors than those about moving the stick like a child. And, of course, 15-20 mph more help a lot when pursuing a mach 1 Typh jaboing your base.
And, a last and more important point, if you use 190A5 or A8 for anything but E fighting plane, then it is clear you have just no idea about the purpose of that bird, better go for Spit.
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Face it ram; the A5 is the wussie plane of the two (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
RAM, pedorra, suppose you know the diference in range between A8 and A5, right?
5 minutes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) No deal I stll like the A5 more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And let me know how many times have you gone with 2x20 against a B17, and how many times have you kill the buff.
Well, since V1.03 hit the road...all the buff kills I've got are with 190A5 without MGFF (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Quite a lot ,i guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There are more important factors than those about moving the stick like a child. And, of course, 15-20 mph more help a lot when pursuing a mach 1 Typh jaboing your base.
ohhh but nothing can compare to what you feel when that sissy P51 dives on you, overshoots, you scissor him and get the kill...(thanks to the better low speed handling of the 190A5 you can actually turn inside MANY faster planes without losing the fight while doing...thing that in the A8 you cant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
Those yells...those cries... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And, a last and more important point, if you use 190A5 or A8 for anything but E fighting plane, then it is clear you have just no idea about the purpose of that bird, better go for Spit.
Heheheh...guess that my 4/1 K/D in my Fw190A5 close fighting with it (that in tour 10 and in a moment reached a -believe me- 25/1) is because I am a Spit dweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-22-2001).]
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RAM, it seems tour 10 was somehow brilliant for you and your A5, and it seems stadistics are also very important for you.
So, talking about your obliteration of buff formations, stadistics shows that just 0 buffs were killed by RAM in 190A5 during tour 10... Definitively you are not a good example for A5 as a buff killer.
The advantage in range is not 5 mins, at least for my A8 is about 10 mins (no wep and cruising at half power with aux fuel tank).
And the overshooting of 51s is as easy in A5 as in A8.
Cmon, admite it, A8 is superior to A5 and A5 advantage in turning hability doesn't compensate the rest of the factors.
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Blah Blah Blah look what you have done giving our FW secrets away , now Knight Luftwobbles are gonna get creamed by the Top secret advantages of our planes tsk tsk.
Btw I have grown to love the A8 one of the best death kill ratios I have in the game is in it , including its older brother the A5. But nevertheless I love the A8 better it is heavy it is rugged it's damned ugly and I got four big bellybutton guns for your buttocks.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Tis not important how one goes,but who goes with you.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
RAM, it seems tour 10 was somehow brilliant for you and your A5, and it seems stadistics are also very important for you.
Huhm, I like to have a good K/D. I measure the success of my sorties by how much of them am I landing.
But no, they are not very important. Everyone here knows that RAM doesnt fly to live, RAM flies to FIGHT, and RAM ALWAYS dives to clear sixes even when that means to dive into a cloud of cons.
Noone really caring about his K/D would do that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So, talking about your obliteration of buff formations, stadistics shows that just 0 buffs were killed by RAM in 190A5 during tour 10... Definitively you are not a good example for A5 as a buff killer.
Look further back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). And remember that I left AH in Tour 10 almost in the first week fo the tour.
Also remember( and this is important) that I have always stated that I only attack buffs when I have at least 10K of advantage, or at least we are two fighters on the buff. Either that or I dont attack.
The advantage in range is not 5 mins, at least for my A8 is about 10 mins (no wep and cruising at half power with aux fuel tank).
5 minutes ,exactly, measured by Snefens' charts. Aux Tank in A8 doesnt last for 10 minutes.
[edit]Link to the fuel charts: http://pages.prodigy.net/armis1/.wi_fuelma.gif (http://pages.prodigy.net/armis1/.wi_fuelma.gif)
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And the overshooting of 51s is as easy in A5 as in A8.
the overshooting yes, the reversal no. REquires a low speed handling that the A8 simply doesnt have ,while the A5, barely has, but it has it.
Cmon, admite it, A8 is superior to A5 and A5 advantage in turning hability doesn't compensate the rest of the factors.
As I told Bikekil the other day...
A5 accelerates better than A8 AT ANY ALTITUDE
A5 climbs better than A8 AT ANY ALTITUDE
A5 outturns A8 AT ANY SPEED AND ALTITUDE
A5 runs more than A8 over 4K.
A5 has a slightly better rollrate (I guess that its because I always fly A8 with 4 cannons and A5 with two).
A5 has a noticeable better low speed handling that A8
A8 is faster than A5 lower than 4K
A8 has twice the firepower than A5 (letting MGs aside and giving that the A5 flies a 2x20mm configuration)
A8 has slightly longer range than A5
And that's about it.
You can love to BnZ,Mandoble. I can do it (and do it very well). But simply is boring. I want to FIGHT, and A5 is a MUCH better air superiority aircraft than A8. In all senses.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-22-2001).]
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A8 is the only manly 190.
Looks better than A5.
More/better guns.
Heavier, thus better diver.
Priller markings.
And, its more challenging to fly than the A5.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 01-22-2001).]
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Snefens charts are not exactly accurate as to fuel usage. I found 109 times short by almost 5 mins, never bothered testing the others.
AKskurj
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Originally posted by RAM:
You can love to BnZ,Mandoble. I can do it (and do it very well). But simply is boring. I want to FIGHT, and A5 is a MUCH better air superiority aircraft than A8. In all senses.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-22-2001).]
RAM, there is no direct connect between E fighting and BnZ (hope you know well that). 190A8 is an E fiter, just because it bleeds its E so quickly. Ok, agree with you, turning&turning&reversing&puking is fun, but believe me, that was not the purpose of any KT desing. KT designed fighters, not child toys.
A5 could be a comparable weapon to A8 only if you use the MGFFs, else you have only something like a gray La5.
And about Aux fuel tank, just take off, climb over your base using DT and then patrol loitering at 15k just above stall speed, now tell me that A8 has just only 5 mins advantage.
In this arena, and for missions purpose, range, lo alt speed and weapons are a main factors. In all of them A8 is the winner.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
A8 E-fighter
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
hehe, wait for me to laugh a bit more pliz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). A plane that accelerates worse, bleeds E faster and climbs worse (both in zooms and sustained------>tested it), has worse vertical performane...and is a better E-fighter?.
Care to explain it to me? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A8 is better BnZ-er. Period.and that only because the heavier punch. It can E-fight if you start with advantage, but the E-loss is 2 fast to keep the fighting for long. A5 bleeds less E in EACH move it does, plus accelerates better---------->keeps E-up MUCH MORE than A8.
A5 has less range. 5-10 minutes. Maybe I think that it is less because when I was used to fly A8 there was a higher fuel multiplier, I dont know.
And mandoble...for heavens' sake...I dont TURN in A5.
I close fite in it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) completely different (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
A5 was a fighter. A8 was a buff hunter. Historically and here, they are not comparable for anti-fighter purposes.
NathBDP...A8 more challenging?...yep. But also more survivable.
Lets face, if A5 had 15Mph more on the deck you'd fly it all day long , only because you'd be able to raise twice the K/D you have right now. And we both know that your only, and utmost objective in AH is the have the Highest K/D possible regardless anything else (and yes, that includes to let a m8 that has just saved ur bellybutton before, to be banged by four cons without trying to help him. Been there, suffered that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-23-2001).]
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Go take a gander at my k/d for this tour handsomehunk, I haven't flown the A8 more than a few sorties.
Jeez, you really do talk outa your bellybutton eh?
What's the point of flying for k/d with the perk system? I want perk points, thus perk planes. Once I get a perk plane I will then fly for kd.
Maybe if you came outa the closet and stopped hiding like a little girl people would attempt to save your bellybutton if your in trouble and not regard you as some clueless newbie flying a Typhoon.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 01-23-2001).]
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I wish you would put your money where your mouth is, I challenge you to a duel, me in manly A8 and you in your sissy A5. I do not expect you to accept since all you can really do is talk.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
must have hit some nerve here
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Nath...go to sleep. It's very very late (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM, pedorra, A8 is E fiter just because E is its most preciate value. You can turn forever, cant loop forever, cant climb forever, even cant run from most of the other planes. You must to administrate your E like gold, much better than with A5. For BnZ you need only two factors, advantage over the cons and good weapons. With an effective range of less than 300 yards and a very poor ROF, A8 is anything but a BnZ plane. You must fight your kills and get very close and have very good possition to get a definitive shoot, same than with A5, but a bit harder. Your snapshot capability in A8 is almost null.
Its clear that A5 has advantage over A8 in single engangements. But this arena is not H-H. You just cant go with A5 (2x20) and unack by gun an entire enemy base, then kill its radar and all fuel depots. You will have a hard time trying to stop a buff assault with your A5. And the top speed of A5 at lo level makes this plane unsuitable to stop fast enemy jabos knocking your fields. The short range of A5 makes it inapropiate for scort missions where you must keep a long time over enemy bases waiting for your goons or for relief.
The overal impact of A8 in this kind of arena will be always much greater than A5. A5 will be better than A8 only in scenarios where you only need to kill ufo-spitis or some other easy prey.
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
I wish you would put your money where your mouth is, I challenge you to a duel, me in manly A8 and you in your sissy A5. I do not expect you to accept since all you can really do is talk.
Nath we are comparing planes, not pilot skills. If you fight against RAM in A8 and you win, it will be only because you were better pilot. It is evident that in a 1 vs 1 situation, A5 has advantage over A8.
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Mandoble, to call a plane an E-fighter because if you lose the E you are ded is very arguable.
in my book an E-fighter is a plane that once it achieves E-superiority, it is able to keep it all the time. I.E. the E-fighter by excellence is a 109G10, closely followed by the Yak9U.
Fw190A5 is a better E-fighter than A8. Way better. Because both can keep E up better than A8 and can accelerate faster to compensate for the E-loss than any maneouver can produce. And also because A5 excells in the vertical while A8 can't follow it.
Thus, A5 is WAY better E-fighter than A8.
A8 is a BnZ plane by exclussion, not by excellence. Fw190A8 can't turn. Fw190A8 can't e-fight for long (because almost any plane will equalize the E with superior acceleration quite fast). Fw190A8 can Boom and Zoom. And when E is getting low, then all it can do is dive and hope that the enemy can't outrun you.
Fw190A5 can E-fight, way LONGER than A8. Fw190A5 can close fight due the agility and rollrate, better acceleration and less E-bleeding than A8. And Fw190A5 can BnZ (almost all planes can BnZ, ones better others worse).
Your "so long range" is 20-25% without DT, and a negligible 10% with DT. I compensate that with engine management, and not firewalling trhottle all day long. Range is not an issue for me.
A5 can't be the better anti-buff plane...but A8 isnt it either. A8 has advantage in this role, I agree, because has 4 cannons, while A5 has two. But that doesnt make A8 a better plane. Just a better buff hunter thing that was already in WWII.
IMO 190A5 is a better plane than A8. For my flying stile, sure it is. For other's maybe not. 340mph on the deck is few, I admit it...but 370 at 7K not. And Fw190A5 reaches 370mph at 6-7K.
Regarding Nath...bah. He can fly as if he was Josef Priller, I dont mind. A guy that runs instead of caring for the guy who has just cleared his six twice has a very low spot in my list of good AH pilots.
He is a very good stick, but a really egocentric character. I wont take his duel (in same planes he will beat me almost sure, but A8-A5 dont be so sure, little Nath (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).) Because I dont mind if he is a good stick. I mind that he doesnt help his mates, was all I accused him to do, and is someting he can't rebate.
And I wont talk any more about Nath. This is a 190 thread. Lets keep the thing on topic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM, pecora, A5 is better E fiter, but not exclusively E fiter, A8 is a pure E fiter, cant do anything without keeping its E. Actually, with those 151/20, you cant use A8 as BnZ plane, else you'll have 1 kill per 1000 attempts. You must to get E advantage over the con and try everything to keep that advantage during the combat. You dont have "miracle" maneouvers with A8, except very precise moves to administrate your E, and the need of an skilled eye to evaluate the enemy E state. With A5 you can mistake your moves and use your extra agitily to get alive, with A8 a single error is usually a sure death. Anyway, I insist, the impact of A5 over the actual arena is minimal and will be always minimal. The same with La5, Yak9, 109F and G2. Punch power is a must in this environment, and A8 excels on it.
If you are arguing that A5 is a better pure fiter than A8, ok, but A8 is a way better "combat plane" than A5.
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I dunno. I just think the A5 is way more forgiving and, as RAM says, a much better e fighting plane.
If flown as one would fly the A8, it would give you added possibilities, with the extra engine power and turning capability.
It's the sissy version of the 190's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch
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Wow! A Luftwobble cat fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
*grabs a bag of popcorn*
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I dunno. I just think the A5 is way more forgiving and, as RAM says, a much better e fighting plane.
Huhm, you could say it so. but I really miss those 15Mph on the deck sometimes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On the E-fighting I keep on what I was saying. Mandoble, under your standard, a P47 would be a nice E-fighter! (and it sux (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
Naw. Fw190A8 is a BnZ-er. nothing else. (nothing less (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
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QUOTE]Originally posted by RAM:
On the E-fighting I keep on what I was saying. Mandoble, under your standard, a P47 would be a nice E-fighter! (and it sux (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
[/QUOTE]
RAM, this is the very last time I try to make you understand something so evident. In "my standar" as you say, P47 is an E fiter, but P47 is also a good BnZ plane: long range weapons, hi rof. I'm not saying 190A8 is a good E fiter, just that 190A8 is an E fiter. A8 has nor the weapons range neither the ROF of P47 to excel as BnZer (suppose you know that snapshot capability is essential for BnZ). And believe me, if you use the 190A8 as a Bnz plane, unless you catch your victims by surprise or fight only against greens, you'll end up with less than a fortuite kill per every 10 sorties. If this was the way you used 190A8 during your 190A8 "era", ok, you've missed and experience ...
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*Grabs a seat next to Verm to watch this cat fight and asks......So when we get the La7, you gonna stick with the Yak of give the La7 a go? VVS...were real men fly!*
Cobra
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The P47 is a fine E fighter.
1. It maintains E very well in zooms and dives, pretty much any vertical move. At high speed it will maintain that speed better than most planes in the game so long as sustained hard turns are avoided. Combine that with a great high-speed roll rate to maneuver in the vertical and you have a deadly E fighter.
2. It can convert an E advantage to a short-term turn boost for the kill.
Now granted, it's not the BEST E fighter in the game, but it's certainly a decent one. Once the Jug gets a head of steam, it's big weight and great engine tend to keep it rolling. The only planes I really fear are the Hog and the 51, since they are better at E retention and have the diving ability and sustained speed to stop me from disengaging. Oh yeah, and they flat turn better too, not that that matters. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Any plane in the game can be used as an E fighter... even a Zeke. It's more of a fighting style than a plane type. Some planes tend to get labelled as "E Fighters" when they don't really excell in anyting other than energy retention. It's funny but nobody every calls the Spit an "E Fighter", when it's one of the BEST E fighters in the game. Try flying a Spit IX as an E fighter and you will be a very dangerous opponent indeed. Too many folks overlook it's strengths in this area. Indeed one of the Spit's weaknesses is that it can't slow down fast enough. <G>
Hmmm, what's the best E fighter in the game? I'd have to say the P51 Mustang or the good old F4U-1D. Sure the G-10 has great power and climb, but it can't maintain an E advantage like the other two. I'd have to give that card to the P51 honestly. That plane and a skilled pilot can work an E advantage and maintain it better than anything in the game IMHO.
Honestly, both FW's are fine E fighters as well in the right hands. They have many of the same charactristics as the Jug. Which FW is the better E fighter? Depends on your criteria really, but I'd take the A5 if I had to choose.
Oh and RAM, don't assume that because Nath let YOU die, he would let anybody else die. He was just letting you get killed because well, you're you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-23-2001).]
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Here is my tip for flying the 190a5.....
Wait until a Rook Yak is within 1.5k of your six and then dive straight into the ground.
Thank You and Goodnight,
Cobra
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lets see. A P47 (or 190A8 for that matter), sees a spit 10K under it. fine. It dives, tries to kill, and if he doesnt, he zooms to keep its E up. He zooms, may do a hammerhead or other E-keeping reversal, and sets up for another dive. That way until it dies.
There is NO other way a P47 can kill a spitfire. Or a P51 for that matter. A 109G10 can do that (with care not to compress controls), but also can close the fight and FORCE teh spit to turn real hard while it fires. If he kills it ,fine, if not?. Then accelerate out of its range, do a long sustained climb ,and regain E situation. Then it can do an immelmann, a vertical climb, whatever, that the spit wont be able to follow.
BnZ is a mode of E-fight. But E-fight has MUCH more possiblities that a Fw190A8 or P47D gives. To conserve E on a zoom climb doesnt mean that your plane is a good e-fighter.
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Righto ram
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch
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Cool that you're trying out the A5 eddiek.. It is a lot more forgiving than the A8. What would be a good exercise is to fly the A8 for a while, sorta get the feel of what not to do in it, and then go to the A5 (that's a heretic's point of view btw). Just try to remind yourself not to fly it too different from the A8 or you will get into trouble. The A5 turns a lot better to me, but don't keep turning (you already know that tho).
Btw, for you A8 guys, I'm curious.. would you lone wolf in an A8? I know squadron/schwarm tactics work well when you're in an A8, but doesn't it work well in any plane? I stuck it out in the A8 when it first arrived during the beta of AH.. it was my first time online, so as a newbie I died a lot. I stayed with it until the A5 came out.. found it suited the environment better since it climbs a bit faster (important on intercepts), and doesn't snap out of a turn as easy. Anyway, do you A8 guys fly the A8 when you're alone?
mauser
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Originally posted by mauser:
Anyway, do you A8 guys fly the A8 when you're alone?
mauser
Definitively, yes Mauser. Being alone, if you find yourself in a very adverse situation, you'll have more chances to flee with A8 than with A5. In a 1 vs more than 1 situation, supposing same E state, convergence courses of all planes and all the pilots knowing their work, the only suitable way for the lone fighter to get alive is by speed.
IMO the difference in manouverability at hi speed between A5 and A8 is minimal, and being slow with any kind of 190 is a big mistake in any multi-bogey environment, so, the advantage of A5 over A8 is reduced to isolated dogfights of 1 vs 1 where the A5 pilot is concentrated on a single enemy and all his E management si related to a single adversary.
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Yes, I fly the A8 when alone. As you say, it's much better when flown with a wingman or in a squad setting.
In the 109G10, I frequently took off and headed to fields where there were extremely little friendly support - and would still get away with it and a few kills.
In the A8, I need at least one or two friendly planes around - to clear my 6, since it is somewhat hard to do without losing much alt. Once my 6 is cleared, I can very rapidly go on the offensive and return the favour.
But the A8, like the P-47, is at its best when flown with a wingie or with a team.
Then it's quite awesome.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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*Opens up the cooler and passes Cobra a cold beer*
Well.. it depends. I would probably go with the La7 over the straight Yak-9, simply for the firepower of 3 cannons and the deck speed.
*Watches Luftwobbles do am impromptu 3 Stooges routine*
Ouch, nice eye gouge
But if Pyro comes thru with the Yak-9UT like he has hinted at, I would probably stay with the Yak for the better visibility, speed at altitude, and whatever big gun options it has (23mm [which would be more effective than the German 30mm]+ x2 20mm, or 3 20mm as well). Tough call though.
*Watches RAM take a kick to the groin, as he crumples with a cry of "TURBOLASERS!!!*
Hey!!! Pass those wings over here.... No the extra spicy ones.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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*takes a long pull on the cold beer*
Wow, that is good beer, Verm, and watch out, those wings are VERY spicy.
*Sees RAM being pulled around by the old nose grab, mumbling sissy runstang cowards*
I see what you mean about the La7 and its guns, but that Yak is too beautiful a ride to leave in the stable. Now a Yak-9UT, well it just doesn't get any better than that.
*Yikes, now they've all started with the hair pulling*
Hey, any more popcorn?
Cobra
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aw come on guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) eddiek wanted tips on flying the A5, not on how great the Yak is. I fly the Yak when I expect to be outnumbered sometimes. It's funny how they ignore you or run away sometimes; maybe it's the odd combination of consonants that don't include "F" or "P" and the single digit unlike "190" or "47."
Back to the subject, you still there eddiek? Are there any things in particular you need tips on? (although I don't think I'm qualified to help as much as some of the others, I know how great it feels when ppl come in and give you tips anyway when you need hlp).
mauser
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lets see. A P47 (or 190A8 for that matter), sees a spit 10K under it. fine. It dives, tries to kill, and if he doesnt, he zooms to keep its E up. He zooms, may do a hammerhead or other E-keeping reversal, and sets up for another dive. That way until it dies.
There is NO other way a P47 can kill a spitfire. Or a P51 for that matter. A 109G10 can do that (with care not to compress controls), but also can close the fight and FORCE teh spit to turn real hard while it fires. If he kills it ,fine, if not?. Then accelerate out of its range, do a long sustained climb ,and regain E situation. Then it can do an immelmann, a vertical climb, whatever, that the spit wont be able to follow.
RAM, you are just flat wrong. I kill planes using tactics other than that most of the time in my Jug. I get quite a few Spit kills, and I don't dive in from 10k for 'em most of the time. 10k is WAY too much for me to work with. I like about a 3k alt advantage or less. Now what I'll do is make a vertical attack and use my roll in the vertical to go for a snapshot on the bogey. Assuming the Spit is paying attention, he will execute a break turn. This break turn will be mostly a flat turn, likely with a bit of angle below the horizon. I execute a fairly tight loop, pulling G's, and on the down side of the loop I'll again roll out to try for a shot. I have not zoomed away or extended, but stayed in the fight, and I still have a significant energy advantage which I maintain by rolling in the vertical instead of pulling G's to flat turn like the bogey. After one or two of these, my advantage will be decreasing if I haven't hit him yet, so I will start getting into using yoyo's and lag pursuit with as much vertical component as I can to stay with the bogey. When I have him slow enough, I simply burn my extra E for a tracking shot. With an energy advantage and decent speed, the Jug can TURN, and turn better than the slower fighter for up to 180 degrees or so. I burn that E advantage for a short burst of turning ability and a good solid tracking shot. Now if I miss, I am exiting the fight since an E fighter with no E advantage is defensive. However, up until this point I have been using the strengths of my plane to maintain my E advantage in a close knife fight. I have not zoomed or extended out of guns range, but rather used my superior energy to keep the bogey from pointing his guns at me. Typically I never get more than about 1.2K away from the bogey, but usually I'm much closer through most of the fight. This is not BnZ. This is how I get most of my kills in the P-47, since I'm not a good enough shot to be a really deadly BnZ killer.
The same applies to the A8 as well as many other planes that are suited to E fighting in various ways. The main attributes that make a plane effective in this situation is a good roll rate (for using the vertical to "out turn" a horizontal turning bogey) and an ability to maintain E. Although certainly not the best fighter in this regards in Aces High, the P47 is above average in these areas, and hence can be termed a "good E fighter" IMNSHO.
If you think guys like Westy, Frenchy, and Ammo only get kills in the P47 by pure BnZ, you are just plain wrong. If you should happen to find yourself 3k under them sometime, I'm sure they will demonstrate.
Ram, in the future please don't throw your verbal feces around on the BBS as fact. It will save me time correcting you for the benefit of any newer folks to this BBS who have not yet learned how full of crap you are.
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Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Edited, mail otw lephturn, and is not a politically correct one.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Ooooh. LOL.
You really think email from you will make it through my email filter? I don't. If you don't post here don't expect a response.
Hey guys I think I made RAM mad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-24-2001).]
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As you have already read it , no need for someone else to do it.
I simply hope that you dont go personal and insult people only based on what they say, even more if they dont (and have never tried to) insult you.
BTW I keep thinking that P47 is not a good E-fighter, but a great BnZer. You have your opinion and I have mine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Ram posted, but subsequently edited out:
Lephturn, in the future, keep that kind of words in your prettythang. I have always been more or less correct with you,both in the forums and online, still you keep trhowing toejam for me all day long ,even when I have not named you nor had a contest with you EVER.
So, stick your tongue in your F.... mouth and never mention me again. If you want to correct me, go ahead. In the E-fighting thing we have completely different views, for me E-fighting is not what it is for you, its clear. You want to diverge? do it. I dont mind. I haven't insulted nor faulted you.
If I have never been incorrect with you, take that "kind" of opinions and dig them into your BIG ass. Seems that you NEED to mess into RAM all day long ,to insult ALL Day long to the characters you dont like. And as you dont like me, you mess with me.
See, I wont give you the chance to have REALLY the motivation to be pissed at me. But I wont take another post like those lightly. I have NEVER done anything to you, in fact, even when I dont like you AT ALL, I have quite a respect for your knowledge.
In the future expect JUST THE SAME treaty from me towards you, as you have towards me. That I dont like many things in AH and I say it in a way YOU DONT LIKE doesnt allow you to insult, throw toejam and keeping messing with me all day long.
Understood?
Thank you
Javier "RAM" Bringas
Bilbao, Spain.
Hahaha. The ratio of mud slinging versus factual discussion in those two posts is interesting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And yes, I do have a big behind, I find it quite comfortable for sitting on. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I appologize for saying you were full of crap. It's not you personally I have trouble with, it's some of your posts in this BBS. I just wish you would think a bit before you speak and sometimes just say nothing at all. If you are going to post opinions, try to phrase them as such and not as facts, it would help a great deal. I realize this may be more difficult since English is not your first language, so I'll try to cut you more slack in this area in the future.
Ram, you constantly generate reams and reams of posts with little thought to their correctness or their effect. You are, IMHO, bad for the community and you waste my time, and that's why I got a bit peaved. Sorry.
I have no personal problem with you, I just get tired of having to try to do damage control with your inflamator and often just plain false statements.
Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Don't bother with him Lephturn, RAM can talk alot about this and that, but when it comes to actually executing it he fails miserably.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Nath, I know what you mean. However, I feel some sense of duty to keep folks from being mislead by some of Ram's posts. Oh well.
Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Heh. I edited it not because I have any problem with people reading what I had to tell you, but because in the past people (just like you) yelled at me to stick to private emails if I had to send personal messages. I tried to, but I couldn't. That message was for you only and so I edited it after you read it, but I see that you are a bit hypocrite, huh?.
Maybe because this time was directed at you?. Whatever. The message in the e-mail is pretty clear, and full in validity.
[edit]BTW and back on topic, the kind of fight you describe is available for almost any plane in AH that attacks other with less E. So all planes are great e-fighters?
(and I know that some planes keep e better than others, but the plane in the defensive can be forced to bleed more E than the attacker if the latter flies smartly)
Happens that once the P47 has lost its E-advantage has lost its edge. If it has enough dive it can disengage, but it wont turn tables again, unless the spit gets close and the P47 forces an overshoot with big E-burning by the spit with relatively low E-burning in return. Doable, but dangerous (and hard as hell against the spit).
A 109G10, a Yak9U, a La5FN, can use its great acceleration to recover the lost edge after the E-burning. And can turn a defensive fight into an offensive one without having to force an overshoot, just by accelerating enough and using the E he has just gained to level the balance. G10 can do it with the great climbrate and acceleration, but has the problem of the control lock at 400 IAS.
La5 is not good over 15K feet.Not a big problem, but anyway is a weak point
But the Yak9 has not this problem,and holds E very well.
So, while the P47D has a relatively low endurance into an E-fight, the 109G10 ,and any other plane with high powerloading, has a lot of it. And that is what I call E-fight. Maybe is not what is commonly taken as it, but THAT is for me e-fight. To win E over the enemy and NEVER lose it. And if lost, to be recovered very fast.
Nah, don't answer...I'm out of this thread.[/edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-24-2001).]
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So, while the P47D has a relatively low endurance into an E-fight, the 109G10 ,and any other plane with high powerloading, has a lot of it. And that is what I call E-fight. Maybe is not what is commonly taken as it, but THAT is for me e-fight. To win E over the enemy and NEVER lose it. And if lost, to be recovered very fast.
Now if only you had stated your original argument in such terms, we could have had an informative and interesting discussion.
We disagree clearly, I don't agree that only fighters that have good acceleration are good E fighters. The F4U is generally acknowledged to be one of the best E fighters in the game, and it doesn't accelerate for beans. Although any plane can be used as an E fighter, not every plane can be called a "great E fighter"; indeed I mention above that the P47 is not one of the best, but I feel it is above average. My issue was not with your particular evalution of what an "E fighter" is, but with your statement that "There is NO other way a P47 can kill a spitfire", which I hold is false.
Although we disagree, I salute you for finally making a decent argument instead of blithly making statements of opinion as if they were fact. I hope to see more reasonable arguments like this from you in the future.
Lephturn
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Now if only you had stated your original argument in such terms, we could have had an informative and interesting discussion.
Something you and many people uses to forget is that English is my second language, and that I am far from talking it well.
One of the parts were most is seen my lack of skill with this language is that its quite difficult to state things without affirming them. And sometimes I may be mistook.
I'm not saying this is one of them (but in part I am sure it is). I affirm cathegorically, and under both your and Mandoble's standards that Fw190A5 is better E-fighter because what it lacks in dive and firepower, it has in e-keeping and acceleration.
Maybe you are right and I should have put in clear words what my conception of E-fighting. But I dont think that to throw the load of...well you get the idea, over me was a good solution either.
I have the feeling that people reads my posts with a predisposition to interpretate them for bad. Sometimes rightly so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but not always.
(SIGH) I wish I talked english a bit better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Maybe I can help you out, RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The 190A8 is a good fighter - when it has energy, which usually comes with having alt or diving towards a target. It can make a series of passes, bleeding e on every pass, but due to lack of acceleration and climb rate, will soon find itself on equal e and will be forced to rethink its plans.
The A5 can start off in the same way. Due to a more powerful engine and (down low in particular) a substantially better acceleration and climb rate, it can keep e for longer - or rather, it burns as much but is able to gain more due to the engine.
The YAK and G10 are the best e-figters in AH. Very powerful engines, they can make repeated attacks and the engine will enable them to maintain the offensive, even after several passes.
The A8 is a better b&z'er (which I gather can be said to be a form of e fighting) but it does not maintain e as well, so in strictly e fighting terms, it is not as good as the A5. It has other qualities however.
Down low, the A5 can keep its e much longer than the A8, and that's about what there is to it. In a co alt fight low, average skill pilots, the A5 will soon find itself in an offensive position; denying the A8 a shot by going vertical and using better climb rate, acceleration and maneuverability.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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I'm confused....what does Leph's BIG prettythang have to do with the 109A5 or, now that I think about it, the price of tea in China.
Inquiring minds what to know!
Cobra
(I really have to pay more attention to Leph's BIG prettythang, seems to be important to the flight characteristics of the African Swallow)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
The A5 can start off in the same way. Due to a more powerful engine and (down low in particular)
StSanta, AFAIK both planes use the very same engine.
Down low in particular is where the A8 boost system makes it faster than A5.
Originally posted by StSanta:
...denying the A8 a shot by going vertical and using better climb rate, acceleration and maneuverability.
Have you tested zoom climbs in both planes?
As a matter of fact, A8 or P47 can also deny the A5 a shot by lo level pure top speed.
It is something like comparing Typhoon with Spit IX. Spit climbs better, turns better, accelerates better, but Typh dives better and is faster on the deck (not comparing here zoom climbs due completety different drag factors).
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Have you tested zoom climbs in both planes?
As a matter of fact, A8 or P47 can also deny the A5 a shot by lo level pure top speed.
first of all your latest statement is not true. Fw190A5 is faster than A8 over 3-5K. Not in the deck ,tho.
Secondly I dont know StSanta, but I actually did some tests for the JG26 page in the medium days of 1.04. I have just retried that test, and the results are similar enough to post them here.
Way of testing: Taking off A1, towards south, in the beta map.
Planes tested:
-Fw190A8, 50% fuel, 4 cannons (most usual configuration)
-Fw190A5, 50% fuel, 2 cannons (most usual configuration.
Two tests, one at 1000 feet, 375mph IAS, other at 250 feet, 400 IAS.
2G pull up until land dissapears under the wing. Autopilot in angle from then onwards. Reference of altitude taken as soon as the stall horn starts buzzing.
1st test:
Fw190A5, Starts buzzing at 7300 feet
Fw190A8, Starts buzzing at 7000 feet
2nd test:
Fw190A5, Starts buzzing at 7000 feet
Fw190A8, Starts buzzing at 6500 feet
Conclussion: Fw190A5 is a better zoomer than A8, both because better e-keeping in the pull up, and because superior climbrate that allows the zoom to last longer.
Will repeat it again just now, just for making it sure. If dissimilar results are noted, I will edit this thread.
[edit]ok, did it again, tests are throwing similar enough numbers.
2nd experiment(the one I did before posting here)
1st test:
Fw190A5: 7500 feet
Fw190A8: 7000 Feet
2nd Test:
Fw190A5: 7200 feet
Fw190A8: 6500 feet
3rd experiment(the one I just did)
1st test:
Fw190A5: 7500 feet
Fw190A8: 6800 feet
2nd test:
fw190A5: 7100 feet
Fw190A8: 6500 feet
Ok, this is definitive, at the best altitudes for the Fw190A8 (right on the deck and at 1K) the A5 steadily zooms 500 feet more before the horn buzzs.
If you want to do higher speed tests, do it, but I am quite sure you will get similar results.
So my definitive conclussion is that A5 is better zoomer than A8.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]
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RAM, sorry but IMO your tests have little value.
We are comparing planes with similar configurations, not with your configuration of choice. For example, I always fly A5 with 4x20, not 2x20 and 100% fuel, while I fly A8 with 2x20 + 2x30, 4x20 or 2x20 (those 2x13mm MGs do some damage) and 75% fuel.
When testing zoom climbs you must consider the acceleration present at the moment of initiating the climb. Zooming in an aircraft that is still gaining speed at level has very different results than zooming in one that has is speed stuck in a fixed value.
The best way to do that is just from absolute top speed at level flight. So, you should have choosen the altiture where both planes have the same top speed with WEP.
And two more considerations:
1 - 50% fuel in A8 is more fuel than 50% in A5 (remember the third aux tank?). Set 50% fuel in A8 and 75% in A5 to "simulate" two planes with similar combat radius.
2 - You should test both planes with 2x20 or 4x20, not one with 2 and the other with 4.
I'm not stating that the winner should be the A8, only that your tests parameters put both planes in a very different configuration.
An interesting and also biased test would be to test A8 75% fuel and 2x20 + 2x13 against A5 with 100% fuel and 4x20 + 2x7.
Both planes with similar range and similar firepower (mostly due the 950 13mm rounds present in the A8, IMO better than the few 20mm rounds present in the A5 MGFFs).
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
We are comparing planes with similar configurations, not with your configuration of choice. For example, I always fly A5 with 4x20, not 2x20 and 100% fuel, while I fly A8 with 2x20 + 2x30, 4x20 or 2x20 (those 2x13mm MGs do some damage) and 75% fuel.
No, excuse me. I compare the planes as I fly them. I say taht 2x20mm A5 is better e-fighter than A8, so I test a 2x20mm A5.
I test it with 50% as it is a normal fuel setting for the moment you engage in combat. 75-50% is the fuel load expected in that moment
When testing zoom climbs you must consider the acceleration present at the moment of initiating the climb. Zooming in an aircraft that is still gaining speed at level has very different results than zooming in one that has is speed stuck in a fixed value.
I did them while the plane was DECELERATING from higher speeds.
The best way to do that is just from absolute top speed at level flight. So, you should have choosen the altiture where both planes have the same top speed with WEP.
lol we are comparing similar zoom abilities from identical start points. So, same start of speed and altitude, sorry.
1 - 50% fuel in A8 is more fuel than 50% in A5 (remember the third aux tank?). Set 50% fuel in A8 and 75% in A5 to "simulate" two planes with similar combat radius.
so you want to add 25% of weight to a plane to simulate 10% on the other?...no. Again I am comparing planes in same configurations. In MA you wont call your enemy and say "hey wait till I burn the AUX fuel".
2 - You should test both planes with 2x20 or 4x20, not one with 2 and the other with 4.
no. My point is that fw190A5 with 2x20mm is better efighter than A8. So I test them with the configuration I am talking about.
An interesting and also biased test would be to test A8 75% fuel and 2x20 + 2x13 against A5 with 100% fuel and 4x20 + 2x7.
Both planes with similar range and similar firepower (mostly due the 950 13mm rounds present in the A8, IMO better than the few 20mm rounds present in the A5 MGFFs).
its not biased. Fuel load is what it is in each plane. If you test P51 for comparison with 50% fuel what do you expect? Sorry each plane has its load, and each plane has its qualities. A5 has 10% less fuel, aprox. its 10% less fuel weight. Sorry, but the plane is that way, not my fault
and about the weapons, I repeat again that I am comparing the planes I AM TALKING ABOUT. in this thread I have stated several times that the 2x20mm A5 is a better e-fighter than A8. You said that it isnt. fine, I compare them with the loadouts I am talking of. so 4x20mm a8 and 2x20mm A5.
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MANDOBLE, FYI I just tested 75% fuel loaded, 4 cannon Fw190A5.
TEst one: It zoomed up to 7250 feet before buzzing.
Test two: It zoomed up to 6900 feet before buzzing.
something more?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]
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RAM, it seems you, again, forgot your pills today. Sorry for the rest of readers, I know this reply is not going to give any extra info about A8 or A5.
Originally posted by RAM:
...No, excuse me. I compare the planes as I fly them...
Cant find any interest about comparing two different planes as a particular pilot prefers to fly them, even less interest if that pilot gives those planes completely different configurations.
Something like to say 190A8 2x20 25% fuel turns better than 190A8 4x20 100% fuel. This is a so obvious statement as yours.
Originally posted by RAM:
I did them while the plane was DECELERATING from higher speeds.
Suppose you know a deceleration is just a negative aceleration, so, speed is changing at some ratio. If you can confirm that this ratio was exactly the same in A5 than in A8 in your tests, then ok, but I doubt you can.
Originally posted by RAM:
lol we are comparing similar zoom abilities from identical start points. So, same start of speed and altitude, sorry.
You, as expected, are missing the initial acceleration/decceleration factor.
Originally posted by RAM:
...no. Again I am comparing planes in same configurations.
A new contradictory affirmation, you are comparing 4x20 and 3 tanks at 50% against 2x20 and 2 tanks at 50%, tell me where is the "same configuration"?
Originally posted by RAM:
A5 has 10% less fuel, aprox. its 10% less fuel weight. Sorry, but the plane is that way, not my fault
wrong again, that aux tank has aproximately 40% capacity of AFT or FWD tanks, so your 10% is, in fact, about 20%.
Originally posted by RAM:...is a better e-fighter than A8. You said that it isnt.
Please, and this is very important, refer me to the point where I stated A5 is not better E fighter than A8 and post it here with quotations and bold text.
Originally posted by RAM:
2G pull up until land dissapears under the wing. Autopilot in angle from then onwards.
This doesnt seem a vertical zoom climb test.
[This message has been edited by MANDOBLE (edited 01-25-2001).]
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Heh, this is really funny.
So... You want to test a Fw190A5 heavy to compensate for its lightness. In short: you want to pork the A5 because its lighter (its main asset of the A5 compared with the A8). I say that this is not fair. If the A5 is lighter, so be it.
Or if you are going to test the zooming of the Spitfire IX and V, are you going to add 700 lbs of ballast to the V because it is lighter?. This, excuse me,is wrong from your part.
On the decelleration factor, the difference is minimal because both planes were slowing down REALLY slow.
Anyway if any plane is going to suffer from it, it should be the A5 because its lower high speed (I understand taht with less power available to keep the speed, it is going to deccelerate faster). But the decceleration was really minimal.
On the cannons thing, no, excuse me again, I dont test it as I fly it, I test it as I said it was better E-fighter. I said it repeatedly.
I said "2x20mm cannon Fw190A5 is a better e-fighter than Fw190A8". You said that it wasnt (well you said that Fw190A8 is better plane and that its an e-fighter, so I conclude you say that 190A8 is a better e-fighter). Then I answered that it zoomed more than A8, and StSanta concurred. You asked for tests. You have them just above so look at them or run your own..
You say they are not valid because the Fw190A5 is too light. And I say that THIS IS THE MAIN REASON THAT A5 IS BETTER E_fighter!. A5 is lighter, yes. Period. I compared planes in the configurations we were talking about. And anyway is just the same, a 4x20mm, 75% fuel laden A-5 zooms still better than A8 as I had tested and posted. A four cannon one will still be way better.
You say that I miss initial acceleration/deceleration. I say that it is minimal. And if damaging for a plane, only for the Fw190A5 because of its lower top speed on the deck.-again,I'm talking from the assumption that the less power of the A5 makes it lose speed faster-
I made the test from 250 feet and 1K feet, wich is the only point where A8 can take advantage from its extra power, still the 2x20mm A5 won by a fair margin, and the "heavy" 75% fuel laden A5 won by a slight margin. If the test is run from 5K expect the A8 to be lagged much more.
If you dont like those tests,run your own and post them here. But you only tried to discredite mines in very arguable grounds (at their best, I think that you dont have a single point to discuss about, maybe the decelleration, but again and as I said, the penalty should be for the A5)
wrong again, that aux tank has aproximately 40% capacity of AFT or FWD tanks, so your 10% is, in fact, about 20%.
Look, Mate, enough is enough. The Fw190A8 was a heavy Fw190A5, with added weight in form of extra armor, guns and ammo, and an auxiliar tank for GM1 fuel or extra fuel. If the Fw190A8 is heavier than A5,then ITS HEAVIER. period.
You can't claim "mi plane is heavier than yours" because, in effect its the difference between A8 and A5, A8 is quite more heavier than A5. To try to compensate for that is like if I take a P51 to compare with both and I take only 25% fuel because the fuel load is way bigger than in the 190s. Or as I said, you are't going to put 700 lbs of ballast on a Spit V to compare its zoom with the one in the Spit IX.
Please, and this is very important, refer me to the point where I stated A5 is not better E fighter than A8 and post it here with quotations and bold text.
Er...there is no need to quote you. you state that Fw190A8 is a better plane than Fw190A5. You said that Fw190A8 is a pure e-fighter. So, if its an e-fighter and its better than Fw190A5, then it is because it is a better E-fighter right?. Excuse if my logic is wrong, but from your words I only extract that conclussion.
If you answer "no" to this, then you are admitting that A5 is a better aircraft, if you say "yes", then there is a little paradox here for you say that A5 is better E-fighter, yet you deny the validity of the tests that demonstrate it.
Lastly you suggest that Fw190A8 is a better zoomer than Fw190A5, by asking santa is he has "tested it". the implicit messaget here is that its NOT better zoomer.
I did the tests- and hte A8 is worse zoomer.
Again, mandoble you are quite good to spoil other's tests, why dont you run your own, and come with them here?. Of course, zooms from 0K comparing 25% 4cannon Fw190A8 at 360 vs 75% 4 cannon Fw190A5 (to achieve parity about the ammo load, armor and extra fuel of the 190A8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) ) at 340mph (so the planes don't deccelerate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif), wont be taken as valid here.
[edit] AuX tank has 115 litres of capacity. Forward tank 232 litres, aft tank, 293 litres. Total capacity aproximately 17%.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
This doesnt seem a vertical zoom climb test.
Heh, so now are you talking especifically about VERTICAL zooms?
Originally posted by Mandoble:
Have you tested zoom climbs in both planes?
Where is the word "vertical" there?
I could do it ,but frankly I wont do it. I let that for you, so you can accomodate the A5 as you like.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]
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RAM, it seems you forgot your pills for the entire week.
Your conclusions are so chaotic that I hardly understand why I'm commenting them.
1 - You test 190A8 with more weapons, ammo load and fuel than A5, so, you make the heavier A8 even heavier.
2 - If you state that acceleration is better in A5, then, deceleration is greater in A8. Cant understand why you state that A5 acelerates better but decelerates quicker.
3 - If you think A5 2x20 is better plane than A5 4x20, then I suppose that the use of your logic should imply the same for A8.
You next texts are jewels, so I'm going to bold them.
...I said "2x20mm cannon Fw190A5 is a better e-fighter than Fw190A8". You said that it wasnt...
Where?
...You say they are not valid because the Fw190A5 is too light.
Where? AFAIK I've said only that your A5 had a different fuel quantity and weapons than A8 in your tests.
You can't claim "mi plane is heavier than yours"
LOL Where?
you state that Fw190A8 is a better plane than Fw190A5. You said that Fw190A8 is a pure e-fighter. So, if its an e-fighter and its better than Fw190A5, then it is because it is a better E-fighter right?.If you answer no to this, then you are admitting that A5 is a better aircraft... blah blah blah
ROFLOL, you, for sure, forgot your pills for the entire year.
1 - Stating that A8 is an E-fiter means nothing less and nothing more that its success resides only in the E management, this is your only real resource to fight with. This doesn't mean 190A8 is the best E fighter.
2 - Stating that A8 is better plane than A5 involves factors as important as fire power, range and the extra speed to get out adverse situations, no only E.
3 - As a matter of fact, Zeke is better E fighter than A8, so, I suppose you think Zeke is better plane.
Lastly you suggest that Fw190A8 is a better zoomer than Fw190A5, by asking santa is he has "tested it".
Yep RAM, in fact, if you read carefuly all my posts with your interpretation skill you'll find out some camouflaged messages:
1 - 190A8 way is better than F15C
2 - 190A8 can transport more tanks than C5 Galaxy.
3 - 190A8 historicaly had a tail gunner with 6 tube 30mm gatling cannon.
4 - Mr. Tank put a foot on the Moon years earlier than any Apollo mission flying his 190A8 in a zoom climb using WEP.
5 - 190A8 engine oil tastes way better than any bourbon.
6 - The sun will fall on us in 2010.
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ok, last try.
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
RAM, it seems you forgot your pills for the entire week.
Frankly what is interesting is your fixation about insulting me. But letting that aside:
1 - You test 190A8 with more weapons, ammo load and fuel than A5, so, you make the heavier A8 even heavier.
No. I test the A5 with the same fuel configuration and with 2 cannons less. I have repeated the tests with 4 cannons, and the loss of zooming is between 100-200 feet. Didnt post the results as my tests arent valid (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif).
If I test the plane with 50%vs50% you can't complain (as you did) that the A8 had an extra fuel tank that adds weight. So--what?. A8 also had more armor and heavier cowl MGs, is part of the design and inherent to it. If the plane is heavier, is heavier, you can't handicap one of the planes because its lighter than the other.
2 - If you state that acceleration is better in A5, then, deceleration is greater in A8. Cant understand why you state that A5 acelerates better but decelerates quicker.
(deep sigh). Again, I made clear this was an ASSUMPTION, and maybe I didnt make it all the clear it was needed.
Fw190A8 has 2000hp aprox at SL. Fw190A5 has 1800hp aprox.
Ok, if I am travelling at 0k, 400mph in A5 and A8 I expect the A5 to decelerate faster. Why? because its top speed its lower (meaning that the power output of the engine can't push its way at so much speed.)
The A8 I expect it to decelerate slower, why? because it has a higher top speed and the more engine power can keep the plane faster for a longer time.
Again this can be wrong, I am talking on ASSUMPTIONS (and I stated this clearly in my previous post). If I am wrong, well so be it. Anyway the decelleration was really slow in both planes when I begun the pull-up.
3 - If you think A5 2x20 is better plane than A5 4x20, then I suppose that the use of your logic should imply the same for A8.
Mandoble esto ya te lo digo en castellano. Durante todo el puto thread he estado insistiendo sobre los performances del Fw190A5 CON DOS CAÑONES!. De tal forma q el testeo q he hecho lo he hecho con dos cañones, no con cuatro. Si no lo entiendes alla tu.
La verdad uno se harta de tus puyas-que las haces a proposito para desviar atencion- y pierde bastante la moral como para intentarte contestar sin meterte una buena burrada en respuesta. Pq macho, si no estas de acuerdo conmigo me parece fenomenal, pero otra de tus "bromitas de las pastillas" y de la contestacion q recibes me banean de los forums (cosa q por otra parte me la bufa rato y medio).
Si quieres dialogar, cojopendo. Las cosas con respeto y sin faltar q yo en mi jodida vida me he metido contigo, y bastante es tener q aguantar ciertos elementos por aqui como para q encima tenga q aguantar esto de un español. Sabes q no me callo y a la proxima te la suelto.
The rest of his post are simple personal attacks not worth of mention nor answer. MANDOBLE; take a 100% loaded 4 cannon Fw190A5 (dont forget to take a 500Kg bomb, so it compensates for the extra fuel) and make it zoom. then compare it with a 25% fuel 2 cannon A8. That would be fair huh?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]
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RAM, no tomes las bromas de las pastillas como ningun instulto, tomalas justo como bromas, que es lo que son.
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(punt) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Pyro, HT, any HTC staff, please lock this post. Let them argue and have a pissing contest in someone else's thread please?
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eddiek, regardless of what you think, in this thread there are really good advices on how to fly a 190.
MANDOBLE, una cosa es una broma y otra cosa es repetir lo mismo en un post claramente sarcastico e hiriente. Lo tomare como q lo has medido mal, pero te digo de verdad, si yo no te he faltado jamas, no lo hagas conmigo.
Now back on topic and to the acceleration/deceleration.
In a plane running straight, two forces decide the top speed of it. Thrust and drag.
Thrust is invariant as long as the engine keeps running at the same hp output. Not so the Drag, that increases a lot with the speed.
In phisics, dynamic systems, you learn that the total forces that act over an object, added or substracted (depending on the direction and sense of the force), are equal to MassXacceleration. the equation would be:
Ff-Fc=Mxa
Ff=forces in the same direction and sense of the the movement
Fc=Forces in the same direction, but opposite sense of that of the movement.
M=Mass of the object
a=Acceleration.
So a=(Ff-Fc)/M
So far its clear, right?.
Ok, lets see. A8 has 10% more power than A5.
The thrust force of A8, then ,is higher than A5's.
So lets say that the Ff for A8 is 1.1 times the Ff for A5, right?.
Lets keep the drag equal (it will be a bit higher for the A8, but for the sake of simplicity -and because I dont have enough info to give it a good modifier,lets keep it equal)
Mass of A5 is aproximately 10% less than A8.
So mass for A5 is 0.9 times the M of A8.
Now we must put this into the equation of the acceleration.
Equation for Fw190A5:
Ff-Fc=0.9Mxa; a=(Ff-Fc)/0.9M ; 1.111(Ff-Fc)/M=a
This is the acceleration for A5, at highest output at SL.
Equation for Fw190A8:
1.1Ff-Fc=Mxa
a=1.1(Ff-Fc)/M
This is the acceleration for A8 at highest output at SL.
--------------------------------
Ok we know that the top speed of a plane happens when a=0. That will happen when Ff-Fc=0, so when Ff=Fc
If the Drag is bigger than the Thrust, the plane deccelerates until the point that the forces are equal and the acceleration 0.
At 400mph, deccelerating for 375mph, the drag of both planes is bigger than the trust. so far its clear.
so
a=1.1(Ff-Fc)/M (acceleration of A8)
and
a=1.11(Ff-Fc)/M (Acceleration of A5)
will give us wich plane will decelerate faster. Fc is equal on both planes, Ff too (we have put a modifier to A8 for taking account of its bigger output before), and M too (we have put a modifier to A5 for taking accounf of its lighter airframe before).
a its going to be negative (the plane is deccelerating). So lets say that the mass is X, the drag is Y and the thrust is Z. (thrust < drag). The numbers don't matter, wichever they are, the formula will give us always one equation bigger than the other. And we will call the substraction X-Y= -K (negative because Y>X)
so
Fw190A5:
a=1.111(X-Y)/Z; a=-1.111K/Z
Fw190A8
a=1.1(X-Y)/Z; a=-1.1K/Z
as you see the decceleration is bigger in the A5.
Inertia plays a big role here, as well as the fact that the bigger thrust force overcomes the drag better in A8 than in A5.
I know this is a great simplification of the dynamics acting over the plane, and that the drag changes a lot with the speed, but if we look the system for a given moment and same speed for both planes, its clear that the A5 will deccelerate faster than A8.
The only black point I find here is that the drag force for the A8 will be slightly higher than that for A5. I dont think it will be that much of change(After all it's only the cowl mountings that creates a bit more drag). But if A5 doesnt deccelerate faster, then they will be roughly equal.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]
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RAM, while the first two or three people gave me tips, you started your routine piracy by nitpicking StSanta's post.....and it snowballed from there into which plane was better........not what I wanted.
I wanted tips on the A5, did not once ask for A5 vs A8 comparison.
We have seen these same arguments before, and while they may be "correct", I will restate that I wanted tips on being successful in the A5, not the A8.
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Originally posted by eddiek:
RAM, while the first two or three people gave me tips, you started your routine piracy by nitpicking StSanta's post.....and it snowballed from there into which plane was better........not what I wanted.
I wanted tips on the A5, did not once ask for A5 vs A8 comparison.
We have seen these same arguments before, and while they may be "correct", I will restate that I wanted tips on being successful in the A5, not the A8.
StSanta and me have a particular private joke about who is flying the sissy plane. Maybe you did took that as a nitpick, it wasnt. It is simply that he flies A5 different than me, and that is mostly because he flies A8 more than A5.
If you are good at BnZing and not so good on Close fight ACMs, fly it as Stsanta says.
if you are good at ACMs, fly it as I say (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway I repeat, you have really good tips here to read and follow.
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Originally posted by RAM:
Equation for Fw190A8:
1.1Ff-Fc=Mxa
a=1.1(Ff-Fc)/M
Sorry, but incorrect RAM.
a(A8) = (1.1Ff - Fc)/M not 1.1(Ff - Fc)/M
For A5: a(A5) = 1.111(Ff - Fc)/M
That means that you are wrong stating that A5 accelerates better than A8. Assuming max power of A5 is 1700hp, A5 accelerates better only when Fc derived from drag is equivalent to 155hp or lower. So, basically, A8 accelerates better than A5 on the deck, and due this, A8 decelerates slower as Fc increases with the speed.
And now a tip for eddiek. Try using 4x20 in the A5, the two external 2MGFF with 225 conv and the two internal Mg120 with 250 conv. I've found this conf quite effective.
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Thanks, MANDOBLE!
Will give the A5 another whirl today when I log in......... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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double post
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-26-2001).]
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Mandoble, yes u are right regarding the equation error...hehe was just out from an exam and believe that I got a mental meltdown
anyway I must take a look at those equations again, will do later (exam this afternoon)
Eddiek,well...see, I fly 190A5 as main ride and never load MGFF. Do as you wish and try all configurations. But I dont know any other dedicated A5 driver in AH, at least not that I know of.
And I keep on saying that MGFFs are worthless. You asked for tips from people used to fly this kite, and is my ride of choice.
now do as you want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) is your fun, not mine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mandoble, try adressing the other pointd as well: will adress yours:
StSanta, AFAIK both planes use the very same engine.
Aye, I should have said "engine to weight". Sometimes, I slip.
Down low in particular is where the A8 boost system makes it faster than A5.
That's down in the weeds, and it's only faster. It does not climb as well even down low.
I said:
...denying the A8 a shot by going vertical and using better climb rate, acceleration and
maneuverability.
Have you tested zoom climbs in both planes?
I am not talking about zoom climbs. I am talking about a co alt co e fight. The 190A5, due to better climb rate, can do a knife edge fight, can go over the top on loops faster and can to a larger extent recover lost e. This will mean, if pilots are average, that the A5 will find itself in an offensive situation. I've tried it.
As a matter of fact, A8 or P47 can also deny the A5 a shot by lo level pure top speed.
The A8 can run, but not engage offensively. If the A8 chooses to run, the A5 can choose to climb. At which case the A5 will be on the offensive and the A8 on the defensive.
And running is, as far as I know, a defensive move (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
It is something like comparing Typhoon with Spit IX. Spit climbs better, turns better, accelerates better, but Typh dives better and is faster on the deck (not comparing here zoom climbs due completety different drag factors).
Well, there's not enough difference. The A5 does everything the A8 does, except down in the weed speed. Small difference in ammo load and ROF doesn't compensate.
If I was to go 1 on 1, I'd always take the better e fighter.
In MA, it's different.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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That's down in the weeds, and it's only faster. It does not climb as well even down low.
Still cant understand that more power = less climb rate thing.
I am not talking about zoom climbs. I am talking about a co alt co e fight.
Then you are not talking about our arena.
The A8 can run, but not engage offensively. If the A8 chooses to run, the A5 can choose to climb. At which case the A5 will be on the offensive and the A8 on the defensive.
And running is, as far as I know, a defensive move (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Ok, I'll run, I'll deack your entire base, destroy your radar, kill two slow climbing nikis, and then you'll kill me: congratulations, great work.
Well, there's not enough difference. The A5 does everything the A8 does, except down in the weed speed. Small difference in ammo load and ROF doesn't compensate.
Small differendes in ammo load, ROF and muzzle velocity???? Too much beers for you today... ... St, please, sleep 8 hours and then come back and read what you've writen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If I was to go 1 on 1, I'd always take the better e fighter.
Then, a secret tip for you, fly the Nikki.
Well, this is MA, I need to cover friendlies, scort buffs for long distances, deack bases, kill silly ufo-spits or ufo-hogs all the day, etc, etc. A5 is absolutely inferior to A8 in any situation except coalt, co E 1 vs 1 duel.
IMO, I insist, IMO, A8 is waaaaaaaaaay better combat aircraft than A5 for this arena or any hipothetical 1.5 - 2.5 world war.
A5 is clearly better E fighter, ok, as Zeke is.
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Still cant understand that more power = less climb rate thing. I am saying that at no altitudes does the A8 outclimb the A5. It got more weed speed for some reason but above 1k or so it ain't happening.
Then you are not talking about our arena.
We're comparing two planes. We're taking ahypthetical engagement, where the conditions for both planes are equal. That doesn't happen in the MA, and it's pretty obvious where it does.
Ok, I'll run, I'll deack your entire base, destroy your radar, kill two slow climbing nikis, and then you'll kill me: congratulations, great work.{/b]
Sheesh, so defensive. And no, you won't. The moment you start wasting e - the A5 will be all over you. You have one chance, if the A5 follows - run home to momma or fight from a disdvantage. Your choice. Doesn't change my point.
Small differendes in ammo load, ROF and muzzle velocity???? Too much beers for you today... ... St, please, sleep 8 hours and then come back and read what you've writen
What the hell is wrong with you Mandoble? I discuss civilly, and you resort to name calling. Do you have some kind of a problem here?
Look at ammo load for 190A8 vs 190A5. There's a difference. And from what I've heard, the A5 due to some odd thing has a slightly lower ROF on the outer guns. On this I might be wrong. On ammo I am not. So chill out, man. I ain't attacking your person; you're attaking mine.
Then, a secret tip for you, fly the Nikki.
The N1K is not the best e fighter around - once again, a 109G10 or a YAK can dictate the fight by using its superior climb rate. perhaps we use widely different definitions of e fighting - I am not referring to "holds e well in turns and can loop fast". How do *you* define e fighting? And try to explain it, please, without resorting to personal attacks.
Well, this is MA, I riendlies, escort buffs for long distances, deack bases, kill silly ufo-spits or ufo-hogs all the day, etc, etc. A5 is absolutely inferior to A8 in any situation except coalt, co E 1 vs 1 duel.
I disagree. The A5 can do just about everything the A8 can. With 4*20, it also has a very powerful punch. While it lacks some of the speed of the A8 on the deck, it can fight much differently, can be flown more aggressively and can even turn a little bit. It's overall a good deal more maneuverable.
IMO, I insist, IMO, A8 is waaaaaaaaaay better combat aircraft than A5 for this arena or any hipothetical 1.5 - 2.5 world war.{/b]
Way better is making too much out of it. I think it's more fun. The differences are so small however; the A8 has an advantage one area, the A5 an advantage another. Whether you consider one better than the other depends on your style of flying.
A5 is clearly better E fighter, ok, as Zeke is.
You didn't address my comments on why it is, so I will assume you agree with them.
And no need for personal attacks, dude. I try a civil debate and do not call you a drug using burned out cocaine addict that needs rehab for 8 month before he can say something coherent. I expect the same courtesy extended towards myself, or this discussion is over.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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I agree with RAM's initial assesment:
The 190A-5 is better for close-in fighting, while the A8 is better suited for BnZ.
Although the 190A8 can fight in close combat reasonably well, I can't imagine it being any better than the A5 in this regard. The 190A8 is all about brute firepower, and the 30mm option is incredible. I was shocked at how quickly those 30mm's will shred a plane when I tried it for a day (think it was version 1.01 or -02) I don't think either plane is especially well-suited to E-fighting, although the A5 is the better E-fighter of the two.
Personally, I think the 190A8 is a better plane for the arena generally, although the 190A5 might be more fun to fly. The 190A5 is a good option for somebody who wants to fly a FW, but doesn't want to be automatically dead in close combat.
From my perspective (I fly a P-51D 99% of the time, when I fly at all, which hasn't been since early 1.04), the 190A5 is a more difficult plane to deal with in a dogfight. However, I am more afraid of a high A8 than a high A5.
Either way, both are worthy opponents.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Still cant understand that more power = less climb rate thing. I am saying that at no altitudes does the A8 outclimb the A5. It got more weed speed for some reason but above 1k or so it ain't happening.
Santa, Brute power in a (bassically) identical airframe means bigger top speed.
Better powerloading means better acceleration and climbrate.
The reason why A8 is faster low on the deck is that it has more power output and so it can overcome the drag better than A5.
The reason why A5 is better accelerator and climber is because it is way lighter, so, even when it has 160hp less on the deck, it still has a better powerloading.
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Yes, what you said ram.
I said that too, but in fewer words.
I guess I want my readers to be intelligent, so they can interpret it that exact way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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St, excuse me if you think some of my comments are personal attacks, it was not my intention.
This is clear that we are comparing the planes with a totally different point of view. You talk about a 1 vs 1, I talk about overal effect of a plane in this arena.