Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Naudet on March 03, 2001, 01:24:00 PM
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This bird is far to good in climb and dive compared to the FW190A5.
The P38 in WW2 couldnt dive with a FW190 nor could it zoomclimb with it.
But what do i have to see here??
A freaking 2-eng fighter looping with my FW190 and gaining the advantage.
This is not possible, the P38 loses more speed in the climbing part of the loop and doesnt gaina as much speed back in the diving part of the loop. That are facts from mock combat of a P38 vs a FW190A3 in GB during WW2.
Again i see a game in which the Axis planes are modelled bad, i think u have read to many legends of the mighty Allies planes that defeated the Germans.
Fact is the Allies have won WW2 by numbers, not by quality!
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Welcome to AH.
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Well, considering that Germany was on the defensive most of the war... the Allies wouldn't want to fight a country on the defensive with equal numbers now would they?
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can I say it? please? thank you
P-38 is porked
190 is porked
Perk the N1k
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Cripes. Where do these people grow?
"This bird is far to good in climb and dive compared to the FW190A5."
Why? because you *think* so? What were the dive and climb numbers for either? The P-38 could out climb and out turn a 190 handily. The J/L model could out dive em later on. We have the L model.
"The P38 in WW2 couldnt dive with a FW190 nor could it zoomclimb with it."
Now there you're completely wrong again. The "L and retrofitted "J" could outdive just about anything due to the newly fitted Fowler flap and other improvements.
"A freaking 2-eng fighter looping with my FW190 and gaining the advantage."
As it should. The 190 climbed like a pregnant sau. The 38 was a very good climber. It was an interceptor put into a fighter/escort role. It was not like the flying brick ME-110.
"This is not possible, the P38 loses more speed in the climbing part of the loop and doesnt gaina as much speed back in the diving part of the loop. That are facts from mock combat of a P38 vs a FW190A3 in GB during WW2."
An 190A3 versus what model of P-38? The assininely British re-specced model? Sure! But no way a J or an L. Where is that report btw? Got a scan or link? Got facts?
"Again i see a game in which the Axis planes are modelled bad, i think u have read to many legends of the mighty Allies planes that defeated the Germans."
Pathetic. You're a revisionist huh? The 109 was obsolete in 42. The 190 was an "ok" fighter but inferior in 43 and 44 because it stunk to high heavan at high alts where the US fighters were better. The Dora came along offering parity at most but too late due to the egotistical maniac Hitler, the bumbling National Socialist party as well as the higher ranking military staff.
Fact is the Allies have won WW2 by numbers, not by quality!
<eye roll> "Seig Heil!" huh??
Funny. Most folks think the P-38 isn't performing as good as it should here. You're the sole voice who thinks it's too good.
Did you ever think it was the pilot (you) and not the plane? Re-reading the above I bet not. You're German and you're too good to fail. It's in the genes. <sarcasm re-holstered>
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-03-2001).]
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Originally posted by Naudet:
This bird is far to good in climb and dive compared to the FW190A5.
The P38 in WW2 couldnt dive with a FW190 nor could it zoomclimb with it.
But what do i have to see here??
A freaking 2-eng fighter looping with my FW190 and gaining the advantage.
This is not possible, the P38 loses more speed in the climbing part of the loop and doesnt gaina as much speed back in the diving part of the loop. That are facts from mock combat of a P38 vs a FW190A3 in GB during WW2. B]
If you are referring to the fly-off I'm thinking of, you cannot compare the P-38F used to the P-38L. Indeed, the L was a horse of a different color. Boosted ailerons, 60% more horsepower and dive flaps. If the AH P-38L is modeled correctly, it will eat your 190 for lunch every time. Much faster climb rate, much tighter turn rate, much faster roll rate at high speed. Faster at virtually every height, no BMW powered 190 could hope to catch a P-38L in level flight or a climb. As to dive speeds; Yes, the Fw 190 had an advantage in peak velocity. However, the P-38L was the fastest accelerating American fighter, both in level flight and a dive. With the dive recovery flaps deployed, the P-38L could follow the 190 right on down. We should remember that the 190 had a real problem with elevator forces at high speeds, leading many a pilot to fly straight into the ground, unable to muscle their 190 from its terminal dive. Go to:
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html) to read about the P-38 in the ETO. This article has been recognized by the USAF as the finest evaluation in print. It is also endorsed by aviation historians Warren M. Bodie, Walter Boyne and is currently being serialized in Airpower International magazine. I co-wrote the piece with Dr. Carlo Kopp, an Australia based defense expert and acknowledged aviation authority.
Personally, I have found the performance of the P-38L UNDER-MODELED by HTC. I've managed to talk a former P-38 pilot into downloading the AH software, so that he can evaluate the AH P-38L and P-51D, both of which he flew in combat. Currently, I am still helping him to configure the software. When and if he has something to say, I'll post it on the BBs.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hrhmh.. P-38L were very capable fighter..
surely faster than wuergers.
Though, bigger target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
One thing that I don't believe, is its gliding ability.
I literally have troubles slowing it down to landing speed.
...though, it seems that every plane glides bit too well except tiffie.
E management isnt what it used to be.. before planes lost E when you just pitched up a bit, now they hardly lose it when you yankenbankenwanken the stick.
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I fly it ALL the time now, the only thing i see wrong with it is its stall, but i have not data on that so its just a feeling so its probably fine.
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Uh oh, those P38 thread are invading our P47s thread.
I say Perk the 38!
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Widewing, if they come online, please let us know eh? I'd love to fly on their wing!
Thank you for this effort, I hope HTC gets the 38 fixed before or during next version. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Fishu: To land the 38 in AH line up with runway, cut engine, lose speed (by ruddering, spiraling down with dive break/rudder) and when at 200 mph start using flaps. Lower ALL flaps (as the 38 slows down you will be able to use all flaps). Trim the elevator down so your plane doesnt nose up while adding flaps.
When near field (and at 120mph at this point) lower gear and let the plane land itself. I dont even use the wheel breaks, they are useless... the flaps/dive break stop the plane on its tracks.
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Originally posted by Tac:
Fishu: To land the 38 in AH line up with runway, cut engine, lose speed (by ruddering, spiraling down with dive break/rudder) and when at 200 mph start using flaps. Lower ALL flaps (as the 38 slows down you will be able to use all flaps). Trim the elevator down so your plane doesnt nose up while adding flaps.
Thats exactly what I mean (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It needs some unusual efforts to slow it down..
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Hehe, the 38 is the only non-tail hook plane ive been able to carrier land in the rearm portion and take off again. I love my 38, porked as it is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Any noticed you sometimes get what seems to be a porked plane online?
IE under any circumstances where one plane should be able to outperform the other?
Say a sector long chase where a P-51 never gains on a Spit along the deck.
Or an A5 outrunning a P-38 in the same situation.
Weird stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
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That dang P-38 is waaaay too uber already. About time it gets perked. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 03-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Any noticed you sometimes get what seems to be a porked plane online?
IE under any circumstances where one plane should be able to outperform the other?
Say a sector long chase where a P-51 never gains on a Spit along the deck.
Or an A5 outrunning a P-38 in the same situation.
Heh, I've seen spit 9 miracles sometimes..
like Spit 9 gaining on level against 109G10 after long low level chase.
though, G10 should be way faster
Though A5 should outaccerlate P-38..
and in the HTC charts A5 and P38 are quite equal in speed (P38 might be couple mph's faster.. I didn't take that good look)
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Perk the 38, it's the only possible solution.
Fury
<won't even touch the conspiracy theory (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)>
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 03-04-2001).]
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Widewing, are you familiar with these two?
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/perf.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/perf.html)
and
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/speed.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/speed.html)
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Hrhmh.. P-38L were very capable fighter..
surely faster than wuergers.
Though, bigger target (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
One thing that I don't believe, is its gliding ability.
I literally have troubles slowing it down to landing speed.
...though, it seems that every plane glides bit too well except tiffie.
E management isnt what it used to be.. before planes lost E when you just pitched up a bit, now they hardly lose it when you yankenbankenwanken the stick.
I absolutely agree. All of the AH planes retain their energy more than they should. Try this to slow the P-38: beginning at 1,000 ft, add one notch of flaps, as you pull off the throttles, ease back on yoke. At about 1,500 ft AGL, execute an 8 point roll, dumping the gear when fully inverted. At each of the remaining points, add more flap. Once you are upright, you should be be down around 140 IAS. I know that it sound crazy, but it kills speed real quick.
My regards,
Widewing
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Apparently this guy doesn't know that the P38 was a faster diver than the P51D and even the P47D. Extending dive flaps will allow it to reach close to 500 mph with control. It's zoom climb is enhanced by it's two counter-rotating engines which allow it to climb further without torque effects. I gotta laugh when I read a post like that. I just may start flying the P38 again just to piss some new guys off.
fscott
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All of the AH planes retain their energy more than they should.
That is a bold statement. If you can back it up, I'll eat my hat.
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Fact is the Allies have won WW2 by numbers, not by quality!
In your wet dreams maybe.
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Originally posted by fscott:
Apparently this guy doesn't know that the P38 was a faster diver than the P51D and even the P47D. Extending dive flaps will allow it to reach close to 500 mph with control. It's zoom climb is enhanced by it's two counter-rotating engines which allow it to climb further without torque effects. I gotta laugh when I read a post like that. I just may start flying the P38 again just to piss some new guys off.
fscott
At least J model still had serious problems with diving.
I haven't heard of L model having any miracle changes either, than better controls in high speed flight (hydraulical control surfaces).
I also believe that P-47 did outaccerlate P-38 in dive.
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Originally posted by funked:
In your wet dreams maybe.
Well, Allies really had some numbers which lead them to at least some level of victory - long range heavy bombers.
and quality came later in the war.
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Yeah, it glides too well alright! Rate of descent with flaps and gear down at 150 mph is 5k/min! You guys are insane!
It took me 10 seconds to slow from 300 to 150 mph in level flight, with gear and flaps up...mind you I turned a bit to help it, but still...15 mph/s??? That's like applying heavy brake pressure in your car. Too bad we can't *feel* that in a simulation.
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"Apparently this guy doesn't know that the P38 was a faster diver than the P51D and even the P47D"
Really? I dont see that. Nothing could outdive a Jug.
"Fact is the Allies have won WW2 by numbers, not by quality!"
I think its both. Numbers during early years and quality (and numbers lol)during late war time (when germany had lost most of its quality but still had some good numbers).
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Both points are very true and I mention it numbers won the war for the allies combined with quality later of strat and equipment.
As to the E retention model of the airplanes
,since I have no previous knowledge of physics, but I do know that the performance of aircraft and aerodynamics did not keep the aircraft in the air alone some. Some of the heavier airplanes glide for miles. Heck I can glide a Ju88 pretty well same for the 17. Which as soon as you lost the engines these planes, the heavier ones, were comparable to bricks covered with aluminum.
Flap drag model is laughable to say the least . They're like going in a freeway and getting your arm out of the window you can feel the air resistance but it doesn't cause the car to stop accelerating or decrease it considerably. I speak of experience in RL aircraft. Not Cessnas but , High performance lo wing aircraft.
Something I've noticed is that even in earlier 109s which are considered more aerobatic the rudder effectivity at High AoA and slow speed is well sluggish.
Gotta goooooo
AcHoo!
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
-----15 Spanische Staffel----
Tis not important how one goes,but who goes with you.
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Tac, Fishu, The P38 could dive faster than the P47D and the P51D. I can back that up with reference to "America's Hundred Thousand", again the Bible on American fighters, which lists the fastest divers in order with the P38 at the top. Saying nothing could outdive a Jug, is a general statement. The P38 could accel faster in a dive, but of course the Jug and 51 could handle higher speeds in the dive.
fscott
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Originally posted by fscott:
Tac, Fishu, The P38 could dive faster than the P47D and the P51D. I can back that up with reference to "America's Hundred Thousand", again the Bible on American fighters, which lists the fastest divers in order with the P38 at the top. Saying nothing could outdive a Jug, is a general statement. The P38 could accel faster in a dive, but of course the Jug and 51 could handle higher speeds in the dive.
fscott
For the record, the P-38 did have the best dive acceleration of the three. However, that meant that it would venture into compressibility rather quickly. Indeed, the P-38 may hold the initial edge, but it would fall behind in a prolonged dive.
The Critical Mach for the P-38 was 0.68
The P-51 came in next at 0.75, with the P-47
very close to the Mustang. P-38s could be pressed to Mach 0.72, and the Mustang could manage 0.80, but this was pushing it.
The P-47 was able to reach Mach 0.83 under controlled circumstances.
For the P-38 to match the others, it would require a new airfoil design. This should not be a surprise when you consider that the P-38s wing differed little from the Lockheed Electra.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'd like to see FScott face when he tries to break the diving records with P-38J (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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cc, the jug could dive longer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Lockheed Electra? Whats that?
I think HT said they knew the flaps were kaputt (or something), wish I knew if they were adressing them in next version.
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Fishu, why is it people cannot comprehend what they are reading? I said it is the FASTEST accelerator in a dive. Where did I say that it had the fastest dive speed?
fscott
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Originally posted by fscott:
Fishu, why is it people cannot comprehend what they are reading? I said it is the FASTEST accelerator in a dive. Where did I say that it had the fastest dive speed?
fscott
I was referring to this: "P38 was a faster diver than the P51D and even the P47D"
..then you went to change your points later.
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Originally posted by Tac:
cc, the jug could dive longer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Lockheed Electra? Whats that?
I think HT said they knew the flaps were kaputt (or something), wish I knew if they were adressing them in next version.
The Jug could attain higher diving speeds before compressibility set in. From the P-47D-30 on, all P-47s were fitted with dive recovery flaps similar to those on the P-38. This allowed the pilot to venture into compressibility with greater confidence. However, the dive flaps did reduce acceleration and peak velocity.
The Lockheed Electra was a twing engine light to medium transport. IIRC, Lockheed selected the same NACA profile for the P-38 because all of the fuel needed to be carried in the wing. Moreover, this airfoil provided for excellent fuel economy while providing adequate lift for such a heavy aircraft. If you can find a planform drawing of the P-38 and Electra, compare the wing shape.
If the AH P-38 dive flaps were fuctioning properly, the aircraft would execute a 3 g pullout, hands off. With repect to this, you must fly the AH P-38 as if it were an early J model. That means keeping g loading on the aircraft while diving to avoid overspeeding.
My regards,
Widewing
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My uncle Roy, flew P-39s in WWII, still flies in Warbirds, and is hitting the 80 years old mark. Still kicks everyones bellybutton when he can fly and every now and then he calls me and says .." go read this post.. like they know what it is like to fly xxx bird.. hell there parents were probably running around in diapers when the war was on."
And ya know what... I AGREE!! People squeak about ..this does not handle right..yada yada because they get there pattooty kicked by another fighter. Granted there are times when it is quite obvious it is wrong. So everytime I see a post like this my first response.. as is my uncles..
"WHEN WERE YOU BORN????" or
"You flew xxx plane in combat! IN WWII"
Flight models are created and all based on mathmatics and over history it has been proven that when it comes to aviation, what looks good in the books.. MAY NOT SHOW TRUE AT 15K FEET.
LATER
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Hey gorf, if he flew any of the AH planes, tell him to come over or a while and give us a comparison.
For my part, as long as the 38 spins on the ground when taxiing on 1 engine in AH i'll keep screaming foul (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
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Originally posted by Tac:
For my part, as long as the 38 spins on the ground when taxiing on 1 engine in AH i'll keep screaming foul (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
You could not taxi a real P-38 on one engine either. The assymetrical thrust cannot be compensated for by the brakes, and there isn't any nose-wheel steering. Any attempt to taxi on one engine will certainly result in turning in a circle. You should be able to coast with one engine running, and steer with the brakes (the rudder is useless at normal taxi speeds). Just remember, wherever you stop is where you will remain.
My regards,
Widewing
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*stroke*
*thud*
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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This bird is far to good in climb and dive compared to the FW190A5.
The P38 in WW2 couldnt dive with a FW190 nor could it zoomclimb with it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Etc.
But what do i have to see here??
A freaking 2-eng fighter looping with my FW190 and gaining the advantage.
That's right. Better wing loading, better thrust-to-weight ration. Two engines are better than one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
This is not possible, the P38 loses more speed in the climbing part of the loop and doesnt gaina as much speed back in the diving part of the loop. That are facts from mock combat of a P38 vs a FW190A3 in GB during WW2.
I suggest you find another source for this. Or find out if such a fight was actually recorded. OH! Even better, find out what model of Lightning this is - likely a D or F.
Again i see a game in which the Axis planes are modelled bad, i think u have read to many legends of the mighty Allies planes that defeated the Germans.
Axis planes seem to be fairly well modeled if you ask me, and no worse than in any other games. What do you base this on? And, um... the mighty Allied planes did kind of defeat the Germans (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Fact is the Allies have won WW2 by numbers, not by quality!
Oh? Really? Well, no. Let's look at the historical facts, shall we. Battle of Britain first: Germany: 2,400 planes. Great Britain: 700 planes. So, how did they win? Oh yeah... the "better quality" German strategists, Hitler, etc, were idiots! "Let's bomb London! What a swell plan!
Ok, next, the early war. From 1940 through most of 1942, possibly into 1943, the Allies were outnumbered in the air over the Continent. And despite a strategic advantage in numbers, until 1944, almost all encounters in the air gave German a/c a numerical advantage because they were closer to home and could fly more sorties per day. Let's not forget Operation Torch, in North Africa.
Oh! Midway! Of course! Four Japanese aircraft carriers, against 2 USN carriers (one damaged), about a 2-1 aircraft advantage, an overall force advantage of, what? 3-1? A battle that should not have been won on paper. I guess it's good that Nimitz, or Halsey, or whoever it was that scored the victory at Midway didn't look at the paper.
My facts may be off a bit, but I believe that I am generally correct. So, next time ou decide to say these things, try to make it believeable.