Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zigrat on June 21, 2000, 12:36:00 PM
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I love it baby (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)But you 190 newbies are making us look bad (j/k)
The Fw 190A-5 has 25 kills and has been killed 24 times against the F4U-1C.
zigrat has 7 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Fw 190A-5 against the F4U-1C.
I thought the a5 is way better than the c hog, but it seems like the c hog is holding its own?
Cmon, help me in my quest to rid the world of C hogs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Has anyone tried the HogC's guns yet? Have they been fixed?
Zig, You'll never rid AH of the HogC as long as they have the advantage of those porked guns.
I agree about the A5, I like it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mox
TWC
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Zigrat,
You killed me 6 times last night all in a 1C. That's why the F4U-1C seems off to you. You kill me fair and square except I was having a frame rate melt down on a couple of them. I was actually on your 6 one time and the frames jumped and bam, you on mine. Anyway I hope it was just my floundering last night that screwed the rest of the F4U drivers. Boy did my kill percentage take a beating last night.
F4UDOA
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the a5 reminds me of the p38L when it first came out with its phantom e retention.
cheers
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Originally posted by Citabria:
the a5 reminds me of the p38L when it first came out with its phantom e retention.
cheers
Pyro tuned down the P38 when someone demonstrated it was too uber. Citabria, come here with data and tell us why does A5 have that magic E retention that you say, because it has the one it must have for a 1800hp light aircraft.
I knew it, that A5 would start an endless whine. come here with FACTS not with "oh I cant beat it". Post some numbers and demostrate it as someone did with the P38.
Until then ,shuddup. We, A8 drivers, do magic with an A5...does it surprise you?
oh, I'm not surprised with it.
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Oh please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Like the 'Ban The C-Hog' rants were filled with objective facts... <cough>
Do we have a new uber plane on the block? Good. It'll be nice to finally see the heat taken off every plane I decide to fly.
Ban the A5! It's... ah... like, uber! ... Buncha damned Dweeb-5 pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Don't ban anything, add new things. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
I love it baby (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)But you 190 newbies are making us look bad (j/k)
Hey!! I resemble that remark!
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Waxer
II/JG2 Richthofen
(http://home.earthlink.net/~neiljohnston/_uimages/waxer1.jpg)
"Nothin' up my sleeve...Presto!"
[This message has been edited by Waxer (edited 06-21-2000).]
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Anbody have any turn performance curves or numbers for FWa5 v p51d in an overlay?? (5k 10k 15k)
I'm not hollering wolf.. just very surprised to see the turn rate in the 190a5 is markedly better than p51's in the sim.
Was this the case in RL (tm) ??
Dunno.. enlighten me plz. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Hangtime, read this. (http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/pro_190_survey_c_3.jpg) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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got a good run today against Citabria in A5, I was in a N1K, he had maybe 1K or so advantage. I survived 2 passes being able to neutralize him and get some angle but he played it wise and using separation and e-retention finally bled me out. I wouldn't say it was ueber, just flown well and patiently exploiting the extra E-margin he had.
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Milenko LIKES HIS NEW 190A5 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/images/Mil.jpg)
The Great Milenko (http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rowgue/milenko.ra)
You can kill me can't ya? (http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rowgue/killsomeone.ra)
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<< MILENKO >> (http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/milenko.html)
<===THE ASSASSINS===>Webpage (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
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I took the A5 out for a blast last night and let me just say: "That thing is a Fekin MONSTER". The acceleration is nothing short of AMAZING, and the handling compared to the A8 is incredible. It has to be the most confident plane i have ever flown in AH. I took it up to 30K no problems and it still happiliy was climbing at a slow to moderate rate at that altitute (without wep too).
Now im not saying: "its too uber" or: "it's overmodelled" cause i dont know enough about it historically to make any such claim. But i can say that that it is a truly incredible plane. I had a lot of fun in it.
What is everyone elses opinion??
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Overlord Spatula
if you adhere to all the rules you miss out on all the fun
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 06-21-2000).]
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Thanks Juzz..
Interesting reading. The guy sez it's better than a Mustang but that a Spit IX with merlin 66 is superior in all aspects...
Hmmm... this 20 min subjective check ride eval is dated 27 Aug, 43. The Americans brought over the first P51b's in October; 43, (354th FG.) And these had the Merlin 68's with reworked props.. better than the spit9's little Merlin 66. The first British Mustangs with Merlins in England arrived in late December 1943. (no. 65 squadron.)
What was there in August was Mk1 and MKIa Allison powered P51's...
<exhibit A is shredded; flutters to floor>
So; my friend.. You got any hard data on the FWa5 vs a P51B C or D ?
Hang (nice try tho)
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When all else fails, fall back to physics--- wingloading, power-to-weight, etc. These numbers would be revealing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Muhahaahahahahahahah,<deep breath> ahahahahahahaha! Hmm Did one try to warn the little paper waving people politely that they would be in for a shock when the A5 showed up? yes one did, yes yes, but they see 190, they think A8, Lo, it TURNS! horror shock, (20mm rounds impacting) Muahahahahahahahahahahaha!
P.S. I don't find it uber in the least, just well (No! it's a dirty word here) competitive
Whassamatter? Ya's don' like having ta work for ya supper?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Don't ban anything, add new things. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
Agreed. Spit XIV anyone? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (Damn, I'm a fickle bird!) hehehe
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Hangtime, do you really think the P-51D could possibly turn any better than the Mustang Mk I(P-51)?
Here's a second opinion (http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/pro_190_survey_b_6.jpg) on the matter, just to clarify things further. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Juzz,
Read this http://members.home.net/markw4/FW190_F4U.html (http://members.home.net/markw4/FW190_F4U.html) . The Fw-190A5 was a very good dogfighting A/C. Not however a good turning A/C by any means. Wing loading relative to the Mustang and F4U-1D. It even states on the report that you referenced that the P-51 is suprior in tight turning circles.
Fw-190A-5=weight 8690lbs wing area 197sq ft
Wing loading=44.1
P-51D=weight 9500Lbs wing area 233.19
wing loading=40.73
F4U-1D=Weight 11988lbs wing area 314
wing loading=38.1
My biggest problem however is that it seems way to fast at sea level. It is supposed to be 30Mph slower at sea level than the F4U but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case. It not only seems to be faster but it's E retention seems to better than P-51 and Bf109G10's. I have enough film of this to go around of extended chases that I get no further no matter what the situation or even if the A-5 begins a climb and I stay level. Enjoy it while it last LW boy's.
It will either be short lived or many will find other playgrounds to play in.
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 06-21-2000).]
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Muahaha...
While the sky grows ever dark... the sun blotted out by the increasing hoard of 190's... the throng takes shape, the torches are being lit, the march is beginning.
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I thought the wing area was 203 sq. feet
and many of us fly without the MG FF which reduces the weight
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Now post the power loading of all 3. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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"Whassamatter? Ya's don' like having ta work for ya supper?"
LOL.. far from it. The new A5's are hot; expected that. Knew they were fierce; best turner in the FW lineup; but my understanding was it could not out flat turn a Merlin Pony on the deck. Certainly, AFAIK it did not have better e retention than a pony. As of yet, nothin the LW fans have put up here yet indicates otherwise.
But; I'm keeping an open mind, and I ain't condeming the flight models.. yet.. just wanted to see the data.
Anyboy have a chance to run off the numbers yet on the AH FW's?
Thanks Kieren and FU4DOA.. on the money replies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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F4U-1D:
Weight- 12,039 lb
2,230 hp at sea level (with WEP)
P-51B:
Weight- 11,200 lb
1,600 hp at 11,800 feet
Fw190-A5:
Weight- 8,770 lb
1,700 hp at sea level
All weights are the full-up weights.
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Speed and climb look good as per captured flight test data.
340 flat out on the deck, 4000 fpm initial climb, dropping to 3k/min at around 10k. The stall seems a tad slow to me. I measured 106 power off, 101 power on. The flight test data indicated 110 but I don't know what the instrument error was, I'll have to look at the data again.
190 should have better E-retention than pony when you haul the stick back. Better power loading (less weight for same power) in combination with less wing area and a higher aspect ratio wing = better E-retention. The P-51 should probably have the smaller radius with less than 1/2 fuel, but will fly the circle slower and the 190 may have the superior rate of turn by flying a slightly larger circle at higher speed.
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Originally posted by RAM:
Until then ,shuddup. We, A8 drivers, do magic with an A5...does it surprise you?
oh, I'm not surprised with it.
Easy there RAM...EVERYONE can do wonders with an A5 provided they fly it right. Its definately the most deadly plane in the game right now...if I can get 8 kills per sortie 2 times over the last 2 days with it, its uber (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Personally, I think its dulled the game. EVERYONE is flying the A5 including me. Seems to make the game a bit more boring. Lately its seemed like Air Quake.
-Ding
by Dingy (edited 06-22-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 06-22-2000).]
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Let's put this in perspective... this is an early/mid war design. It is uber for now (by appearance) because we aren't used to it. It does have weaknesses too, as will soon be exposed.
This too shall pass... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kieren,
I think your 51 is carrying 2000 lbs worth of ord!
DOA, go here
http://members.xoom.com/mikewaltz/F-TR-1102-ND.htm (http://members.xoom.com/mikewaltz/F-TR-1102-ND.htm)
Note that the true speed is shown as 340 mph (p75) but the indicated speed would be somewhere around 325 (p74). Likewise, for stall, if you continue the trend of the graph, you need to subtract at least 6 mph from the indicated speed of 110 mph, so the model would seem to be accurate. WTG HTC!!
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Climbrate is a little too good I think. It climbs pretty much on the numbers of the USN test - but with 2 MG FF. The USN test plane only had the inner cannon fitted.
OTOH, the top speed seems to be less than the A-8, and certainly not up to the 415mph at 22k reached in the USN test.
That P-51B weight would be with a full rear tank and two droptanks, by the looks of it.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-22-2000).]
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I am telling you don,t you guys pick on My D9 when it comes out. I placed an order. Till than ill fly all planes but a5 is good subsustite for D9 for the time being (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwl
Bash
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Come on Dingy,
I see enough Zekes and Yaks out there. Finally the LW got a capable, nimble dogfighter and everyone wants to take it away. Of course many people, especially JG2 (and that's a good part of the Knights) fly A5. Remember when the 109 variants were out? The sky was filled with em... then after some time the 109 was a quite rare sight (except JG2 again... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
It's true the A5 surprised me as well but I didn't know too much about historical data. At least it lives up to the legend that the FW190, successor of the Bf109, was a better plane than its preccessors!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (baaaaaad english)
The A5, if flown right, is deadly. It's something like a jack-of-all-trades - it's not the best at anything but good in all categories. I agree on that what RAM said, people are used to see 190A8 - now A5 is something different. All you CannonHog, Sissyfire and Runstang drivers a new kid is on the block ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) ).
The A5 still has nothing magic. E bleed is considerable when turning. Stall characteristics are squeakier than in A8 (or maybe in 1.02). Acceleration and climb are very good. Topspeed is decent but most will catch ya. Manouverability is good as long you don't turn horizontally. It's much harder now to rip wings off, did this all the time in A8, not yet happened to me in A5.
All in all the A5 is my new love! (Hey times change, sry 109)
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~Kirin~
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/kirin.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/home.htm)
"Ich bin immer nur die Messerschmitt 109 geflogen, aller Varianten angefangen von der G-6 bis hin zur K-14. Die Gustav war weitaus kraftvoller als die Friedrich, und hinzu kam die weitaus schwerere Bewaffnung. Die G-10 zum Beispiel hatte eine 30 mm Kanone mit absolut zerstörerirscher Wirkung. Sie war auch die schnellste aller G-Serien, mit einer exzellenten Steigrate, und war in sämtlichen Flugbereichen ausgezeichnet zu fliegen. Ich fühlte mich in meiner 'Beule' immer zuhause und Herr über alle Situationen."
Hauptmann Erich Hartmann, Gruppenkommandeur, I./JG 52, Russische Front, 1945
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The A5 has put the stick stirring back into the game. I shot down a few of them tonight. everyone of them was floping around like a dead fish. except 1.
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I gave the a5 a try. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's AWESOME! (All but the balistics of those MG FF cannon.) It's like a p51 that climbs, accelerates, and rolls better. It also seems to turn a bit better as well, though it shouldn't.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Wells-
I don't know what the loadouts were on those numbers; I just took the loaded weights of all the aircraft. I guess I need to post the empty weights as well....
Fw190-A5: Empty- 6,393 lb
P51B: Empty- 6,985 lb
F4U-1D: Empty- 8,695 lb
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Well.... Told ya so. There was so little wiggle room for turn after having the A8 turn so well that now they have an A5 that easily outturns a P51. Also, Sure seemed to me that the A5 was able to warp roll/stick stir. Acceleration seemed (cough) odd.
Don't take out the A5... Leave it as is. go to the test that F4UdOA has posted that compares a Corsair and Hellcat with a captured A5 and also the test done with a -1 against a 51B. Now.... Make the Corsair perform against the A5 like the real life test... Make the Corsair accelerate exactly the same as the 190.... Make the Corsair roll exactly the same rate as the A5.... Make the Corsair easily outturn the A5 at any speed and gain one turn in three on the 190. Make the Corsair outurn the 51B.
Now... The A5 is right and once the Corsair and 51 are adjusted there will be only a few planes left to adjust. The game will play much faster and more realistically but of course.... You will have some warping/stick stiring and people will have less time to pet the cat and chat. or.... You could just find a "bug" in the A5/A8 turn/roll/acceleration and slow it/them down and keep the same "style" of fighting that AH players have become accustomed to.
How can you tell when the LW sis.. er, guys have an unfair advantage? They get real quiet.
lazs
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I've seen that alot too Easymo. Hasn't worked none too well except to bleed thier E and it makes it easy to figure thier next move which is where the bullets go to meat their next "twist."
Hasn't induced any abnormal warps that I'd heard happened in WB's, that I can see.
A flicking and fast rolling 190 is doing the final death dance. Unless he has a bud coming in from higher up it's only a matter of seconds before that flopping 190 is shot down.
-Westy
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
How can you tell when the LW sis.. er, guys have an unfair advantage? They get real quiet.
lazs
Lazs,Lazs,Lazs...<sigh>
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 06-22-2000).]
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Give it a couple weeks, then we'll see how many people opt for the a5.
Besides, if you take off the MG FFs, it really doesn't have that much of a punch relative to other AC. If you leave 'em in, it maneuvers bad and hits worse.
Oh and a terminological issue: "Stick Stir" is when people game the predictive motion algorithm and make their planes appear to do very weird stuff.
"Warp roll" is when a fast rolling plane appears to roll even faster because the predictive motion algorithm can't keep up with it. Warp rolls are a problem, but they don't imply that the pilot is "cheating" in the same way stick stirring does.
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So, all these people out here carrying torches and screaming witchcraft about the 190A5, have ANY of you actually attempted a mock dogfight of the 190A5 versus the corsair, P51, spitfire(should be superior to it in all ways except low speed turns) or the other planes you are getting comparisons of it's performance to? You can't tell a damn thing from the MA. Just because a plane accelerated quickly away from you does NOT mean the plane is porked, he probably started from a higher E advantage point than you. It's nice to have these tests, but we have to initiate our own tests to match the data that the RL tests are providing us with. Back in WB a few squadmates of mine (this was long time ago.. 1.03 I think) took up 2 109Gs and 2 P51Ds and began a low altitude dogfight to see if WB's flight model was true. That being that 109Gs could defeat P51Ds at low alt low speed dogfight.. turns and climbs. The data came out that WB had a good FM relative to each other's performance (P51D vs 109G). Now, if no one wants to step forward and give this a try, I'll volunteer my service to piloting either of the aircraft in a 1vs1 situation. Don't get all upity if one aircraft wins the first time, that means nothing. Repeated tests and switching aircraft between both pilots will tell you if it's the plane or the pilot winning those matches. ex: if I fought kieren in the P51D and he in the 190A5 and he won, then we switched it he flew the P51D and I flew the 190A5 and he won again... must be because I suck, not the plane.
-SW
AKSeaWulfe+
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Wells,
I looked at the chart you pointed to. I'm not quite sure what you mean. The front page of the report states that the 1G stall was 110mph clean and 106mph dirty. Then it seems as there is a correction chart at the end but it does not state anything about the lower range. Actually Wells this is more disturbing than not seeing a report all.
HTC never seems to include any historic documentation in the past and now they are reading a report on the pitot tube error and altering the stall in the simm?? What the F@#$? I have provided multilple reports stating that the accelleration of the F4U should be better than the P-51 and equal to the FW190. Is HTC picking and choosing paragraphs of the reports and disregarding the rest? I think the P-51 could turn the Fw190 and I have never read anything stated in an evauluation that contradicts that. This type of catering to a segment of the gaming population will get me out of this gaming arena BFQ.
Anyway on another front. I was at the "Sounds of Freedom" airshow in Willow Grove Pa. this past weekend (the one where the F-14 crashed). And I was lucky enough to see a P-40, F4U-1D(FG-1D) and P51D all together from the air museum in Farmingdale Long Island. Anyway I talked to the pilot for about 20min. on the relative flight characteristics of both. I played stupid and just asked the questions. I don't have a big "I love the F4U" sign on my head. I ask about climb and turn. He said the F4U out climbs the P-51D up to 12,000ft and that it could out turn the Mustang at any alt because the wing design of the Mustang did not allow it turn as tightly. His name is
Dan Demeo and he is almost 60yrs old with 30yrs of stick time behind him. I will post the picks when I get them ASAP. Has HTC ever thought about interviewing a pilot on these subjects. Someone who fly's them currently in a restored pristine condition. The same pilot told me that they have a FW-190 although he had not flown it. I think some fresh information on the subject could be inline.
Later
F4UDOA
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Why don't we convert over to Microsoft Flight Simulator and we can adjust our planes at will. Those Luftwaffe bastards! I know what ya mean Lazs! They piss me off all the time! Especially that bastard Berserkr. He flys that A-5 like a demon. I think he's adjusting the code. He's probly smart enough. And UDIE the guy he flys wing for? HE lives in Texas close to the servers at AH. He has a T1 right to the server.That bastard has been seen with Pyro? They made a deal to make sure he stays at the top of the dueling ladder! I'm so fed up I havn't flown since the third beta. I can't believe I almost paid thirty dollars on this damn thing. I think the best thing would be to make all the planes an F4-U then all the turn performances should compare pretty closely. I'm with you buddy keep up the fight! Ship them Luftwaffe bastiges back to Europe. At least they modeled the slowest turning Zero in the war.They didnt want it outturning the A-5. We should be able to handle that in the F4-c. Thanx bud!
Sifter
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F4uDOA
If you are talking about the -4 then I believe you! If you are talking about the -1d or -c vs the 190 both at military power, then i believe you! But if you are talking about the -1d or 1c vs the 190 both at maximum wep and say the f4u can accelerate with the 190 then you are wrong. You mUST make clear which variants and power settings you are referring to.
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Originally posted by SIFTER:
I'm with you buddy keep up the fight! Ship them Luftwaffe bastiges back to Europe.
Sifter
NO SOUP FOR YOU! 1 WEEK!
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Soup Nazi
NO SOUP FOR YOU!
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/soup.jpg)
Click here NOW! (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/1year.wav)
[This message has been edited by Soup Nazi (edited 06-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by Kirin:
Come on Dingy,
I see enough Zekes and Yaks out there. Finally the LW got a capable, nimble dogfighter and everyone wants to take it away. Of course many people, especially JG2 (and that's a good part of the Knights) fly A5. Remember when the 109 variants were out? The sky was filled with em... then after some time the 109 was a quite rare sight (except JG2 again... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
The A5, if flown right, is deadly. It's something like a jack-of-all-trades - it's not the best at anything but good in all categories. I agree on that what RAM said, people are used to see 190A8 - now A5 is something different. All you CannonHog, Sissyfire and Runstang drivers a new kid is on the block ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) ).
Kirin, I completely agree with you that its a Jack of All Trades. The only problem I see is that right now, since it is such a capable fighter, EVERYONE is flying them. 1 out of every 2 enemy I see are 190s and those numbers are identical for my countrymen. In fact, it IS such a capable plane, I have almost moved exclusively to it as well. THAT is why I say it has dulled the game.
The A5 still has nothing magic. E bleed is considerable when turning. Stall characteristics are squeakier than in A8 (or maybe in 1.02). Acceleration and climb are very good. Topspeed is decent but most will catch ya. Manouverability is good as long you don't turn horizontally. It's much harder now to rip wings off, did this all the time in A8, not yet happened to me in A5.
Completely agree. Anything you cant run from you can climb away from. And those guns are one pass wonders. Almost as lethal as my old Niks 20s.
All in all the A5 is my new love! (Hey times change, sry 109)
Yup, its everyones love, hence my point.
-Ding
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
So, all these people out here carrying torches and screaming witchcraft about the 190A5, have ANY of you actually attempted a mock dogfight of the 190A5 versus the corsair, P51, spitfire(should be superior to it in all ways except low speed turns) or the other planes you are getting comparisons of it's performance to? You can't tell a damn thing from the MA. Just because a plane accelerated quickly away from you does NOT mean the plane is porked, he probably started from a higher E advantage point than you. It's nice to have these tests, but we have to initiate our own tests to match the data that the RL tests are providing us with. Back in WB a few squadmates of mine (this was long time ago.. 1.03 I think) took up 2 109Gs and 2 P51Ds and began a low altitude dogfight to see if WB's flight model was true. That being that 109Gs could defeat P51Ds at low alt low speed dogfight.. turns and climbs. The data came out that WB had a good FM relative to each other's performance (P51D vs 109G). Now, if no one wants to step forward and give this a try, I'll volunteer my service to piloting either of the aircraft in a 1vs1 situation. Don't get all upity if one aircraft wins the first time, that means nothing. Repeated tests and switching aircraft between both pilots will tell you if it's the plane or the pilot winning those matches. ex: if I fought kieren in the P51D and he in the 190A5 and he won, then we switched it he flew the P51D and I flew the 190A5 and he won again... must be because I suck, not the plane.
-SW
AKSeaWulfe+
Dunno about others but Im not screaming about inordinate performance numbers for the A5...
The point Im trying to make is that its a forgiving enough aircraft that a majority of pilots are flying them. There isnt the same plane variety in the skies as there was in the past.
-Ding
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Zigrat,
Did you read the report on the trial between F4U-1D and Fw190-A5. Accelleration was equal there. If they did not use the WEP on the A5 then you are right. I would be happy if the F4U-1D could accellerate as well as the A5 with out WEP. The only FM problems with the FW-190 that I have encountered first hand is the E retention is insane. Even in climbing it looses no E what so ever. I have film of it as well. Also top speed at sea level seems to be off. In extended tail chases I have been completely unable to make up ground on fleeing 190A5 even when I am diving from an alt advantage. Top speed WEP on the AH charts show that the F4U should be 20MPH faster on the deck both A/C using WEP.
From D1.5 how long should it take to catch up? Is D1.5 1500Ft or 1500yards? Feet I think. At 20mph it should take under a minute to catch and pass the FW190 and much less time to get into firing position. The other problem I have is that there are so many. It is defintly the plane of choice of the new A/C. The Yak has a great FM but is not appearing in anywhere near the numbers of the new butcherbird. Oh yeah, I have never flown warbirds and I had no idea what a warp roll was until yesterday. What's up with that?? Micro warping all over the place. Is this a characteristic of WB that carried over into AH?? That is brutal. It seems that AH has taken a big step backwards in the release of 1.03. It certainly is not as competitive or fun in the last couple days.
F4UDOA
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DOA,
Pyro has stated that all speeds in AH are 'calibrated airspeed'. Every plane manual has a chart for instrument error.
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F4uDOA
I am willing to do a drag race with a F4u in a 190, we will see who wins. Would be interesting.
From what I have seen, the f4u CAN outrun the 190 on the deck , but only if it has wep. If you are out of wep in the f4u, you aren't catching a 190. Wep is the critical factor here.
Also d1.5 means yards, not feet.
and i did read the test report (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Brzzzzzrrrrttt!
Hold on now... lets not all chase each outer around with baseball bats.
We need some objective tests of the 190a5 as currently modeled in the sim. In particular, top speed on the deck; at 10k and at 20 k. No wind. :0
Next; we need some tests on sustaind and initail turn performance... in short; the kind of magnifying glass examination of the 190a5's flight model that was applied to the pony at the end of beta.
It would seem to me that the current FM of the A5 is a mite optimistic in almost all catagories... of course; I could well be wrong. If so; it would not be the first time; however, fair is fair... and the facts are facts. Lets see the data.. both RL and AH.
Hang
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Originally posted by Dingy:
Dunno about others but Im not screaming about inordinate performance numbers for the A5...
The point Im trying to make is that its a forgiving enough aircraft that a majority of pilots are flying them. There isnt the same plane variety in the skies as there was in the past.
-Ding
I never accused you of saying the plane was incorrectly modelled in relation to it's allied counter parts, what I AM saying is that those people who come here and post about data, then people like lazs who pull words from this data are yapping about how the F4U should be able to do this against the 190, or the P51 should be able to do this against the 190, or the 190 has "phantom E rentention"(as my good buddy Citabria put it heheh), all the while these comments are based off of data done by a series of flight testing, NOT in combat situations like the MA. So, what I'm getting at is, people who are mouthing off about how the 190 should perform relative to those planes it has tests against, why don't you go out and do some tests on your own with someone unbiased to the matter? I haven't seen one post response about how the 190 in AH performs against the F4U or the P51 other than "Well last night in the arena a 190 pulled away from me on the deck.. impossible! Blasphemy!". It's really a moot point until a reply comes back "well, me and another pilot went into H2H or the SEA or TA and performed some flight tests. The 190 is in fact overmodelled because it pulls away from the F4U at low altitudes using just normal power(no WEP/BOOST). The 190 then proceeded to roll faster than the F4U. We started with the 190 behind the F4U and began lazy turns, tightening each revolution. In the end we found the 190 does in fact turn inside the F4U at low speeds, with no flaps, which it shouldn't. Therefore I believe something is amiss." THAT is grounds for examining the 190s flight model. It's intelligent, logical, contains factual information and is done in the same manner the RL flight test reports were done with.
That's just my opinion, but I'm sure someone will insist that's not the way to do things and if I get shot down by one, then it's overmodelled. Just like those spitfires and zeros that turn so quickly. Those are overmodelled too. Why? Because they kill me all the time in the arena and I said so. I'm right, you're wrong, quick change the flight performance for this plane so it behaves like a C130 and I can easily kill it! (tongue in cheek since second paragraph began)
As far as the arena not being as diverse.. excuse me but I remember when the cannon hog came out. I couldn't fly to another airbase without seeing atleast 10 of them. Now where are they? Very few people I see flying them, and almost none with great success(except Torque). As for me, I like this 190A5, but I'm not biased towards it or the F4U or the P51 or the 109 or the etc..... If it's incorrect, fix the damn thing. But if it's not, don't neuter it just because someone claims it to be inaccurate(still have yet to see proof in flight testing data from AH that this new 190 is somehow a super duper uber plane). I like the zero, that thing can turn on a dime. Survivability is fairly low with BnZ aircraft everywhere(except Mitsu has flown it with great success.....). My point is, unless you have data from BOTH fields (AH and RL) then you mine as well stick your head up your... because that's where it's been the whole time. :-)
-SW
AKSeaWulfe+
ps: almost none of this is directed at you Dingy, except for that part about the arena not being all that diverse.
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Oh No! Look out! I've read this post! I'm gona... I'm gona....... Bbbbbbbwwwwwwaaaaa!
Ah man!! I just puked all over the keyboard!
These posts are the reason!
Everytime AH comes out with a new plane, this forum see a load of crap on how it is a dweeb plane, overmodeled, too many people fly it, undermodeled, it shot me down, Blah! Blah!
Lighten up Francis! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Everyone knows these planes will blend back into a normal routine of being selected for flying. Pure and Simple!
Then ya have the plane statistics! This is fun to see argued about.
Climb rates, turn radius, wing loading, stall speed with 78.6576 gallons of fuel aboard at 5/8 flaps, top speed a sea level, cruise speed at 25000 feet.
Damn! Just fly and enjoy the game!! Oops! I mean Computer Generated On-Line WW II Realistic Flight Simulation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
XO I/JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 06-22-2000).]
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Swagger = The voice of reason in an unreasonable world.
Just because he is my flight leader has no bearing on my comment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
JG 2's current cannon magnet.
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Milo
JG 2
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Right on Seawulfe! Here is an example. Lastnight, I was jumped by 2 f4U's. I was in the 190a5 and we were on the deck and I mean on the deck. Those 2 guys chased me a long way, pinging me left & right. I wasn't pulling away yet they weren't getting any closer. 1 of em hit the turf & shattered. The 2nd followed & pinged me a while longer, then turns away & heads for home NOE. When he is about 1.2 away, I turn on him. Takes me a long time, but I finally catch him & end his day.
One could argue that the 190a5 was faster than the f4u 'cause they couldn't catch me and I caught 1 of them running home. But what about the missing information? First, I would assume that the 2 f4u's didn't catch me was... they weren't trying to! They were right where they wanted to be, shooting at me. Secondly, I was chasing the running f4u using wep. Was the f4U? I have no idea, but I would bet he wasn't. He didn't seem to know I was there until it was too late.
I am not arguing that the 190a5 is or is not uber, I have no idea. I just like flying the darn thing. Let's just wait for the guys who are into the testing and all that, see the numbers, then yell (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Apache
The Blue Knights
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Hmmm, my first double post.
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 06-22-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 06-22-2000).]
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I wish you guys would tell me how to turn the a5 tighter than an f4u or a p51! I haven't been able to do that yet, not in a sustained turn anyway. Heck I can hardly outrun spit's in the damned plane.
AND....
I wonder if people are confusing out manuvering with out turning. I can't out turn many if any of the planes in the arena w/ the 190. But I CAN out manuver all of them, depending upon pilot quality of course. If If see somebody flat turning, and I do a yo-yo and beat their turn because I cut the angle, would I then be flying an uber 190 because I out turned them? I think not! It doesn't take that much of vertical to cut an angle, so to the victom it could look like I flat turned.
Just an idea....
Udie
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Hangtime: Look here (http://members.xoom.com/mikewaltz/F-TR-1102-ND.htm)(pg75/76). The Fw 190A-5 in AH performs virtually the same in speed and climb.
Only problem is that it matches those figures with four cannon, but the tested plane only had two.
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Juzz, I definitely think you should post that to the bugs forum to make sure it gets seen, and acted on appropriately.
If you don't it might get missed just due to the sheer volume of posts in this thread
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Hangtime, kindly show me an A5 outturning a 51 in a flat turn, Cuz that was me (WERT) you were turning with last night, and I damned sure didn't outturn ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (but I did have ya hauling on the stick, yelling "GAWD HE'S STILL BACK THERE") (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by ygsmilo:
JG 2's current cannon magnet.
ROTFLOL !!!!!!!!
SOUP FOR SWAGER, 1 WEEK, FREE!
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Soup Nazi
NO SOUP FOR YOU!
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/soup.jpg)
Click here NOW! (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/1year.wav)
[This message has been edited by Soup Nazi (edited 06-22-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Soup Nazi (edited 06-22-2000).]
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OK since the topic of FW190A5's deck speed was brought up here.
Yesterday I tried catch one on the deck and I found I can close on him only if he did some monuevering and even then he would start slowly pulling away from me in flat turn. I think it was berseker or someone with a similar name and fight happened near 13.
To everyone who will jump on me saying that his E was higher then mine, I was higher then him and that enabled me to close to 300-400d from him. Then we run flat towards 13 and he started to very slowly pull away. I got him, but from a much longer distance that I would comfortable to shoot from. Btw, my fuel load at this point was so low that after the fight I had less then 5 min of fuel.
Now, look at charts by HTC - Yak9U speed on the deck is around 355, while Fw190a5 with WEP on goes to around 340. No way that guy should have kept running at same distance from me all the time.
mx22
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Wow, I would never believe this if I haven't seen it here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Bunch of whining and it ain't from Luftwobbles ?!?!
Pure 190 fighter varient gets introduced and all Allied types start sounding like RAF in 1942. Well, at least it is historical (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The A-8 you used to fight against was just weight training. Now the weights are gone.
Have fun, Luftwobbles. You deserved it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 06-22-2000).]
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I don't whine Hristo, I'm just trying to find out why I couldn't catch up with fw190 low on deck.
One thing you right in is, it's fun to see all LW boys dearly defending their new ride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
mx22
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Originally posted by mx22:
I don't whine Hristo, I'm just trying to find out why I couldn't catch up with fw190 low on deck.
mx22
They don't fly with weights anymore.
Most of succesfull 190 pilots are dedicated 190 enthusiasts. They flew A-8 for months, against planes better in most aspects. They learned how to survive in it. Now they got a better version for fighter work. You are seeing the result (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Imagine what would happen if they got the Dora. But, the longer they wait for Dora, the more dangerous they will be in it. Remember that.
Spend some time in A-8 and you will rule in any other plane.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 06-22-2000).]
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Hristo,
Weights, or no weights but HTC charts show Yak9 some 15mph faster then FW190. Now I want someone to either point something that I did wrong while flying Yak9, or adjust charts/FW190A5 perfomance.
mx22
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mx22, were you trimmed out to optimal. Not suggesting you did anything wrong, just trying to obtain information.
Heck, even if you weren't, don't know if that would cause a 15+mph difference.
Wells!!!! Funked!!! Where are ya?
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Apache
The Blue Knights
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Originally posted by mx22:
Hristo,
Weights, or no weights but HTC charts show Yak9 some 15mph faster then FW190. Now I want someone to either point something that I did wrong while flying Yak9, or adjust charts/FW190A5 perfomance.
mx22
I'd say it was the pilot :P
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aksseawulf.... you have a point, it is very early to tell and the lag time appeared to be awfull but.... It appears that the A5 was easily outturning p51's and hogs and was doing a very good job against the lag in turn and besting it in acceleration. Offline i can make the A5 turn better than the P51 or the Hog. If this sim thinks any 190 can turn with, much less best a 51 or a Hog then... I'm with DOA... call me when they fix it.
Oh, what do you think they should do? Keep the A5 as is and fix the 51 and Hog? That would get my vote... faster game.
lazs
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Hristo,
Do you imply that guy was wearing protable jet engines to speed up his plane? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Can I have those please???? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
-lazs-,
If you correct 51 and Hog, please dont forget to fix all other planes by the same amount, or with all this adjustments we might end up with 51s turning better then Spitfires one day. How do you think I'll feel then? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
mx22
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I'm with DOA... call me when they fix it.
lazs[/B]
I think you've stumbled onto the fastest 'fix'...cya Lazs! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by mx22:
Hristo,
Do you imply that guy was wearing protable jet engines to speed up his plane? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Can I have those please
Heh...wich was the starting speed? was him 0G accelerating? remember, Yak is draggy, and doesnt accelerate in a 0G like a 190 should...where you 0g-ing? I bet he was. I do it always if I can, pull up a bit, pull down a bit, and so. It helps me having better speed for a longer time.
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I've only tested F4u-1D and 190A5 so far (100% fuel)
The F4u is faster on the deck (346/357) vs 327/340 for the 190. I was able to fly both planes within 5% of theoretical turn radii, the 190's is larger by about 10m (290 vs 300). The 190 flies it's circle much faster than the F4u (175 mph vs 130 mph) and thus can complete the circle faster (24s vs 31s).
Are the turn 'rates' correct?? I don't know, but personally, I feel the sustained turning speeds are on the slow side.
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Zigrat,
I think you have stumbled onto a solution. I am usually up at 11:00PM EST or -4GMT flying my beloved U-Bird and I known your out there at the same time because I keep getting messages that say "Zigrat shot you down". Why don't we jump into the SEA(no punn intended) and do a little drag racing and turn comparison. You are a better stick than I am but I have allot of time in the F4U so we can get a good report and post it tommorrow. We can even switch mounts to make sure we get the same results when testing. F4U, P-51, A-5.
Also Hristo I understand that your tactics in the A-8 have improved your skills in the A-5 but straight ahead speed is not a factor in AH. Either you are straight ahead full speed WEP or not. No skill really. And Ripsnort you don't want me or Laz to leave really. Then you would be stuck with an entire arena of A-5's doing Luftberry circles wearing Laderhosen sitting at your PC listing to Wagner eating Bratwurst. Not a pretty picture or a good time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Also could someone please explain what a warp roll is and why I am seeing them only now with the A-5??
Seeya
F4UDOA
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mx22
1 - I suppose the A5 you see in HT charts is 4x20 gunned. Perhaps that guy loaded only 2x20.
2 - x% of fuel in an aircraft = y gallons. x% of fuel in another aircraft = z gallons. So, same %fuel left implies very different weights. What I mean is that 75% fuel loaded A5 could be slower than 75% fuel loaded Yak, but, perhaps, 25% A5 is faster than 25% Yak.
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I'll do a test for Fw190A5s highest speed on the deck when I get home. I'll post results tomorrow - heh I visit this BBS only from work, home I'm busy enough with other stuff, including flying in the arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
mx22
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FU4DOA and Zigrat.. I'd say you both were superb experten in your preferred plane types, and I have some clue as to how to get a pony to turn. Between us; we should be able to give our birds good representation.
Count me in.. give me a shout tonight at 11:00 eastern for trials in the SEA. I'll be in the main; getting my comeuppance. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Test regimine.. accel from takeoff to to full wep top speed on the deck; Time and MPH.
Level top speed wepped at 5k, 10k, 15k.
Compartitive flat turn performance, turn diameter and speed.
... and maybe after the races we can have some fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Lighten up folks.. it ain't the end of the world; it's just another new plane being examined for relative performance against it's contempories. If it ain't right, no biggie.. it'll get fixed. I had a coupla wonderful weeks in the pony from heaven till it was gelded.. why not let the Lufwobbles have a bit of fun too? It's nice to see the LW boys get something that's more to their liking.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As far as changing the FWa5's FM.. believe me; Pyro is a rock on this stuff.. he ain't gonna change nothing untill he performs his own evlauations. All our tests will do is satisfy our curiosity as to it's place in the game.
Salute Zig; BTW for an outstanding on the deck level turnfight with that new a5 of yours the other night; and I apologise here in public for my teasing in the text buffer. You won that fight.. and yes; I broke off when the choice became one more turn and auger or slide into your guns. That one had me stumped.. first time I ever had an FW of any type in any sim make 6 revolutions flat on the deck; gaining on my pony in each turn. (you indicated that u have film... may I get a copy?) Superb flyin.
Now lets go find out why it can do that...
Hang
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ok after flying the A5 today, it does NOT seem to be that fast of a plane. Was run down by an A8 OTD.
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Again, I say it was a competent pilot. 190 pilots tend to be competent (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Fly one plane type for a year and you will know what I mean.
You can accuse them of hacking or game gaming, but that won't help.
And do not cry too much when those ones get their Dora.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 06-22-2000).]
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Good Lord, the Wailing and Knashing of teeth when they do the Dora....
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LOL Hristo... the A5's the best thing the LW's gonna get for fightin on the deck.. superb powerloading and nimble as hell. Spent some time in one tonight and I'm impressed by how sweet it flies.. very smooth and with such a gentle break and stall it's arguably as smooth and easy to push hard in a max rate turn as the zeke, nik or spit..
..just wondering.. where's that wicked snap when pushed too hard the FW's were famous for?
As for the upcoming Dora's... truth is, they were dawgs in the dirt and u know it. Up high in spit dweeb country they will be contenders; but down where the good fights are in AH it's gonna be just another clumsy target. Gonna be a lotta dissapointed Luftwaffles and aggraveted strato buff drivers.
... and I ain't wailing or gnashing teeth...
(hang pounds on table)
See?
Hang
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Hang, here's the deal:
I will reopen my account when we get the Dora. It even doesn't have to have the red-white stripes of JV 44 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Then we will fight.
IMO, Dora is a combination 109 and 190, all good things in one plane. It will turn somwehere in the middle of A-5 and A-8. But it will be great for frustrating P 51D by its E income.
190A is a fantastic airframe with somwehat average engine.
109G/K is lousy airframe with superior engine.
Dora is superior engine in a very good airframe.
On the deck it will outrun/outclimb/outaccelerate any 190A varient, just like 109 does.
With alt, it will outdive most planes.
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I found that the Yak is faster on the deck that an 109a5
today shamus and i ran down rip. rip and i were in 190s and shamus in a yak at first when we were chasing rip shamus fell back but flowly caught up passing me to take him down. the yak just takes some time to get up to speed.
Trell
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After utterly destroiying my k/d using the A5 to do Stupid Things(tm) for the pure fun of it, I am now back in the G10.
We need to dumb down A5. Now. It is too hard for me to kill in the G10 ;D
Now, seriously, I do have a small objection to the A5. Last night I had an e adv on a low A5, so I dived down, full wep. The A5 was going ast after a dive and it took me a good minute to reduce the speed difference - and it wasn't large too start with. A5 reverses flies through defenses at airbase where a Zero HO's me. A quick pull up and roll, then back to wep, 190 screaming along at near top speed. 0 g dive, I've lost a little speeed but not much, 190 was d300, sos hould be around d500-700 now.
It was at D1.3 and pulling away. This sort of surprised me. I've flown the A5 itself and F4U's have outrun me. Granted, the A5 might have been flown by an expert, but I sorta found it quite odd that it could extend on a 109 coming in high with full wep for so long. It took me nay minutes to get within a firing solution (and it was only because he reversed). Spent a good two or three minutes at full wep chugging away at the distance - which was only D1.3!
I dunno. Maybe it is pilot skills.
Real men fly 109's. Mommy boys fly A5's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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As far as I know, fuel loadout has TONS to do with speed. So every time I hear someone say "there's no way he shoulda caught me" etc., I find that rather suspect. Not to mention E states when going into the chase, or the acceleration characteristics of the two AC's. AFAIC, these kinds of claims are meaningless.
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From D1.5 how long should it take to catch up? Is D1.5 1500Ft or 1500yards? Feet I think.
Sorry, but no cigar. All distances in AH are measured in YARDS.. so D1.5 is 1500 yds (4500 feet).
Before complaining about relative acceleration rates, PLEASE take the time to learn the basics!
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I dunno. Maybe it is pilot skills.
Real men fly 109's. Mommy boys fly A5's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I took to flying the A8 when I opened my AH account, on the assumption that if ya could master this beast, then ya had the rest mastered as well, after a while tho, I got tired of havin' my bellybutton handed to me, and picked up the NIKI, as it is just a Japanese version of the 190A5.
Now that I have the A5 in my hands all those flamin', screamin', painfully embarrassing deaths in the A8 are being vindicated! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Milenko has 9 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Fw 190A-5. OH MY!
Milenko has 16 kills and has been killed 16 times in the Fw 190A-8.
Milenko has 58 kills and has been killed 39 times in the N1K2.
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/images/Mil.jpg)
The Great Milenko (http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rowgue/milenko.ra)
You can kill me can't ya? (http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rowgue/killsomeone.ra)
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<< MILENKO >> (http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/milenko.html)
<===THE ASSASSINS===>Webpage (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
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Hristo,
I don't know where you got that I was accusing someone of cheating or anything of this matter. Everything I had said so far was only in regards of how fast FW190A5 on the deck.
Btw, did test yesterday and I start to think maybe the guy was in FW190A8. Yak was definatly faster then A5. I guess I'll never find out the truth now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ohh and confidence... I killed the guy anyway; lesson for others - confidence would not stop enemy from killing you.
mx22
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Originally posted by Trell:
I found that the Yak is faster on the deck that an 109a5
today shamus and i ran down rip. rip and i were in 190s and shamus in a yak at first when we were chasing rip shamus fell back but flowly caught up passing me to take him down. the yak just takes some time to get up to speed.
Trell
That Yak is fast, but I ran out of WEP...so, I wonder...
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thats one of the things good and bad about the Yak no Wep
Trell
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mx22, you have hit on it. There is nothing wrong with the A5 but.... The P51 and Hog should easily outturn the A5 at any speed. When they fix the P51 and Hog then yes... They will have to fix all the other planes. Some a little... Some more... That would be a GREAT thing IMO. Imagine if they gave the Hog the roll, and accelertation of the A5 and then made sure that it and the P51 easily outturned it at any speed, then.... Adjust the turn rates of all the other planes .... The game would be more accurate and fun and faster playing.
rip has good reason for wanting me gone DOA and you are correct.... Soon this game will have little or no U.S. ac fans since IMO it has no U.S. ac that are fairly represented.
If they did a D9 and a -4 Hog at the same time.... My guess is that the D9 would out climb, out accelerate, out roll, out turn and have a higher top speed than the -4.... Truth is, climb should be identical at about 3900 fpm or so.... Accelleration should be the same.... -4 should have a better roll and turn and the -4 should be faster at all alts.
lazs
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Jekyll,
Well I had no idea you were such an expert. If it is yards than how come at 500yrds the a/c in front of you fills up your windscreen?
Ever see an WW2 fighter from 500yrds? From 5 Football fields away it should look like a spec of toejam. Maybe it is yards not feet but I don't claim to be an expert in the world of Aces High or any other Game. But if you want to discuss WW2 A/C then I can tell you something. Funny I don't see you contributing any documentation from any source. Why don't you go buy a book and try posting something that was based in reality before you try to teach me the "basics".
F4UDOA
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Flew the A5 for the first time tonight.
Wow!
popeye
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Again the people with books (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Tell ya what, when one o' yas can get a BOOK off the runway, take her 10K, do a cuban 8 into a E-bleeding snaproll to level on final, then we'll talk about the planes, ok?
If you have to complain about every plane that beats you, then maybe you should re-examine your motivation for being here, last few weeks have caused me to start seriously examining mine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Your book is overmodeled.
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pzvg has a point... You can find a "book" to support allmost any performance claim but for sure they vary more than 10% or so in a lot of areas. Pick the "best" performance figures for one plane and the worst for another and use them in a sim and you bias the game to one ac... I like the side by side comparisson tests that were done during the war with captured ac... The more detailed the better.
AH is unique in having good turning 190's. When compared to the AH Hog and P51 (at least.), they don't match "real" comparative or anecdotal data. IMO, AH is a game that is heavily biased toward LW planes for whatever reason. There is no AH data for the Spit 9 or the P47 and no turn data for any of the planesI don't think that is the best money making policy. I also believe that the A5 model is the better playing model... Toward the faster, better end of the data scale, and that all the other planes should be adjusted up to compare historicaly with it.
We have a game where a 190A will outturn a P51 and a Hog. Something will have to give.
lazs
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lazs. have you posted your turn test data..I missed it I guess. Just that I have experiaced some dead heat turn fights with the 190a5 vs jugs. With a slight advanage to the jug. But I might be doing yo yos and not realizing it.
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I will now fly 190A5 til someone take a look at oddities with 109 FM.
You fly it like you fly A8, right?
Only now you can actually fight, not just attack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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ive been killing 205s with the 190a5 in the vertical and staying glued to their but in flat turns when they try to run away
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p51 D outturning 190A5?? Forget it.
Who can give me a circle time for a P51?? It was usual in a flight test to measure the minimum circle times for a fighter, so i´m sure they exist. So please post them! Or do you fear the truth?? Then believe in these doubtable flight comparison tests!!
niklas
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Ahhhhh.. ummmm...
(hang sticks toe in water)
... brrrrr. cold.
Hey my gramps useta say 'opinions are like amazinhunks... everybody hase at least one..'
Test data, both on the A/C in question as modeled in the sim and comparative examination of this obtained data against the reports presented in Americas One Hundred Thousand is a reasonable place to start.
Check the other thread (comparitaive tests P51 v A5) for AH test results. Wells is checking the A5 and p51 turn circles; and we already have some speed testing up..
So; slam those amazinhunks shut unless yah have data to contribute...
Of course thats just my opinion; I could be wrong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Hang,
I second that motion.
Pucker up Buttercup (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
Seeya
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Doh
Sorry
[This message has been edited by brendo (edited 06-27-2000).]
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Dang nasty in here.......
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Hangtime:
right on, bro (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ok, let's keep it simple.. The AH 190A5 outturns an AH Corsair. Offline i get a min. of 3 sec better turn time with the 190 over the Corsair (no flaps) "real life" tests show that a Corsair could "easily" outturn a 190A5 "at any speed".
I don't want the A5 neutered but I want the other planes brought up to comparitive performance. If not... Why not just call AH "Secret weapons of the LW" and be done with it.
lazs
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Left turns on the deck, 100% fuel and WEP.
Fw 190A-5: 25s at 165mph
F4U-1D: 30s at 130mph
P-51D: 30s at 150mph (27s with 75% fuel)
I can't get consistant figures from the P-51D. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I find it very easy to push the Fw 190A-5 right to the edge of its turning ability, much easier than the other two at least.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-27-2000).]
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juzz i got 26 for the A5 and 29-31 for the Corsairs and P51 (depending). The turn should be at the very least..... reversed. I got allmost the exact same same 26 sec for the P38 and 109G2.
This is offline. I have no interest in flying an A5 or a Corsair online that match up so strangely.
lazs
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these fuel loads are retarded, show fuel loads that represent real world. who flies stang 75%, it has aux tank!
should be 75% each for the 190 and f4u then 50% for the p51 since thats what pilots use. Whoever fights in a 100% loaded p51 is an idiot. 50% gas in pony does not = 50% gas in f4u or 190.
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I have as a rule not to answer lazs' posts...but in this matter Zigrat is quite right.
In WWII P51 pilots were told to burn the AUX tank fuel first, BEFORE the drop tanks. That fuel off the CG shifted it a lot making the plane terribly unstable.
In 75% fuel P51 still has 25% fuel in AUX tank.
So make the tests on 50% please...and remember that the weight of a 50% fuel load weights MUCH more than the weight of a 50% fuel load in 190. So still 190 will seem to turn more that it does.
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I have to disagree with EVERYBODY here! Who in the heck can get the 190a5 to out turn ANYTHING?!?!?! I have yet to out turn a 51 or an f4u. I have OUT MANUVERED many of them. There's a big difference in turning ability and manuverability. I can out manuver n1k's in my a8, does that mean it turns better than the n1k?
Since this thread popped up I have been trying turnfighting in the a5, every time I get killed in like 2 or 3 turns.
Maybe I'm not flying the a5 right, but after 6 months of flying the a8 I think I do it well.
If anybody is getting out turned in a 51 or f4 by a 190a5 I submit that it's the pilot and not the bird. And I'm not trying to be a smart arse (that comes naturaly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) or hurt any fealings.
Udie
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oodee, I am telling you how many seconds it takes to turn offline not how well anything does online. A Corsair should easily outturn an A5 at any speed. it should accelerate, and roll, by everyones admission, as well as an A5. It will not climb as well (and doesn't). The AH corsair is not even close....
The main point of this is that there is something very wrong that affects different FM's differently in the turn. If they "adjust" the Corsair to reflect "real life" tests against P51's and A5's then it will be a very good arena plane and a fun match for a lot of ac instead of an allmost unused POS that can only be useful if given a 4 cannon option that real pilots couldn't have cared less about.
The problem is.... If they adjust the corsair to act right in comparrison to the A5 then it will be better than the P51, P38, etc. If the A5 is correct then all the other planes need adjusting... Some more than others. "Adjust" the A5 to compare with the current Hog performance and it wil perform worse than the current A8 plus...the LW howls will be heard clear into the next sim they abandon this one for.
I believe that they have really painted themselves into a corner here. One other solution that would work is to just drop the corsair from the set and bump up the acceleration and turn of the P51 and P38 a little.
lazs
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To all who keep making references to the US flight comparisons with the F4U vs. everything else...
Would it not be fair to consider similar tests conducted by competing countries (assuming it can be found)? A Corsair ace is going to get far more out of a Corsair than a 190A5, etc.
I'm not defending or attacking anyone's data, but it seems that the US test results people are holding those papers up like some kind of bible, when in actuality it is only one piece of the picture.
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A Corsair should easily outturn an A5 at any speed. it should accelerate, and roll, by everyones admission, as well as an A5.
I think the jury is still out on that one. When it comes to people posting this data on this BBS, the person I personally respect the most is Wells; he seems to crunch the numbers better than anyone else here, and does so without attaching hyperbolic emotion to it. If he (or Pyro for that matter) can show me mathematically the heavier, higher wingloaded corsair can outdo the 190A5 in every way you describe, I'll believe it. Until then my common sense tells me the lighter, higher power-to-weight ratio, lighter wingloaded plane should outacclerate, outclimb, and outturn the heavier one at the altitude of best performance for the engine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 06-29-2000).]
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double post deleted
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 06-29-2000).]
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no.... I said the A5 and the simular Hog lb/hp should accelerate the SAME, just as the test showed. The Corsair with it's boosted ailerons should roll the SAME, as the test showed. The Corsair should not climb as well as the A5, also, as the test showed. The better wingloading of the Corsair should allow it to easily outturn the A5, as the test showed.
Seriously.... Is there anyone here who thinks that an A5 SHOULD outturn any model Corsair?
lazs
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...and you're missing the point; what do German test results say about that comparison? I'm sure some must have been conducted somewhere (assuming they can be found).
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Kerien,
I'm willing to bet that there never was a F4U that would have come into possesion during WW2 considering it's very limited use in the European Theater. I know that Adolf Galland did not think to highly of the P-47C when a captured example was tested. But I have never seen any detailed flight test data on any captured allied A/C. I seriously doubt these test could have been run with any validity considering the managment style of the Nazi regime. I do know that they thought highly enough of a license built Pratt and Whitney R-1700 to model the early FW190 engines after.
Later
F4UDOA
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
I do know that they thought highly enough of a license built Pratt and Whitney R-1700 to model the early FW190 engines after.
You surely are talking about BMW132 engine based on P&W Wasp engine. Yes, the start point of the BMW801 was a P&W engine that was the start point of the R2800 too (but note that BMW801 and P6W engines haven't many things in common...humans and elephants come from the same origin, the prehistoric mammals...but you see too much simmilarities between them? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). But I dont see the point here, The P&W was an awesome engine, we all know that...but what? I dont see what is that important for. If you put a powerful engine in a heavy airframe you're gonna get the same powerloading that if you put a less powerful one on a much lighter airframe.
And engine means nothing in wingloading, except that they weight a lot. And PW R2800 weighted "a bit" more tham BMW801 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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R2800 weighed between 2,000 and 2400 lbs and produced between 2000 and 2600 hp. I don't know what the BMW engine weighed but one source says "a little over 900kilos" but the BMW had a more complete engine package even including some ducting. In any case, with fuel injection, 14 instead of 18 cyls. and half the oil of the Manly Pratt.... The BMW should be more fragile and more suceptible to fire and oil loss damage. Also, the Pratt was a much smoother engine. The Counter rotating balancers weren't on the 1700 for BMW to copy.
Like DOA, I have read all those comparisson tests and the main point is that they all pretty much agree even though they were done independently. I don't believe that the Germans ever tested a Corsair. One of our squaddies is a renown Historian and Author whose last few books were on the pacific war (Fire in the Sky) and he has interviewed a hundred or so WWII pilots who all echo the comparisson tests when it comes to the 51, Hellcat and Corsair.
What we got in AH is a Corsair that is grosly out accelerated, and outrolled and (LOL) out turned by an A5 of all things. HT and crew admit there there MAY be a thing or two odd about the turn of AH FM's.... An A5 out turns a Corsair in AH.... Yeah, something may be wrong here. I have no idea what the excuse for the roll rate or acceleration is.
Take away the cannon option and you will see less Corsairs than any other plane in AH. fix the AH Corsair turn, acceleration and roll and you will have a very competitive AH ac with unique strengths and weaknesses. Fixing the Corsair is a win/win situation IMO.
lazs
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these fuel loads are retarded, show fuel loads that represent real world. who flies stang 75%, it has aux tank!
Zigrat, the reason these guys always use 100% fuel in our flight testing, is because that is the procedure that was used in the real life flight tests of the period. So too maintain consistency, and to reflect the "published" numbers for the aircraft that are most commonly seen, tests should be done at 100% fuel.
Otherwise you are going to start seeing numbers that don't match what people think they should, and people are going to start crying "the FM's of <insert favorite fighter here> is PORKED!!!"
Game Testing and real life flight testing, and combat in the arena are totally different things.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
HT and crew admit there there MAY be a thing or two odd about the turn of AH FM's.... An A5 out turns a Corsair in AH.... Yeah, something may be wrong here. I have no idea what the excuse for the roll rate or acceleration is.
HT admited that he SUSPECT there is something weird in the turn in AH...in the turn of ALL PLANES of AH...so both the A5 and F4U.
Anyway I am with Udie in this one, if you are in a F4U and you are outturned by a 190 then sorry sir but you need to train a lot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lazs have you done any roll tests? Both those planes roll like crazy when I fly them! Here are some NACA roll rate data: http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/nacaroll.htm (http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/nacaroll.htm)
If you compare these to the roll data in AHT, it indicates the 190 should roll a little better.
Acceleration is directly related to climb as Wells has demonstrated many times. If a plane can outclimb another plane at a given speed, it will also out-accelerate a plane at that speed.
As far as the turn, HT said he is looking into it, which is good. However note that the F4U is still turning a much smaller radius than the 190, which can be used to beat the 190 in a slow-speed turning match.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-02-2000).]
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Whew...I jus read this whole thread for the first time without a break...I'm worn out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Frankly, most times I die is due to poor judgement on my part...I wish I could blame HTC or the FM.
Personally I'm happy for the LW guys...hopefully HTC wont change a thing regarding the A-5...half the fun for me is learning how to deal with these guys and their rides...added bonus, no LW whinin! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh and Zig...I fly my 51 100 fuel every sortie...thanks for callin me an idiot.
And I thought we were pals (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas Up!
Rude Out!
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My observations on A5 -
sourkrau has 114 kills and has been killed 130 times. K/D - 0.88
sourkrau has 27 kills and has been killed 10 times in the Fw 190A-5. K/D - 2.70
God, my scores are embarrassing. One reason for the improvement is that I have used the A5 for A-A combat, exclusively (no A-G). Prior to this I have been flying the G10 almost exclusively for A-A combat and the F4U1C (sorry JG2) for A-G. I suck at A-G and die way too much.
Wednesday nite, JG2 was vulching 27 from 16 in A5s. In the midst of my first 6 kill sortie ever, jigster got on my six in a 109 at d800 and attempted to close. With a combination of shallow dives and climbs, flat turns I was able to keep him > d750 for more than five minutes. Swager and Doc finally noticed my plight, and shook him off. I reversed immediately on jigster and had a quick kill.
I have a feeling that the A5 is a little uber. (not that I mind).
Sour
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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 06-30-2000).]
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 06-30-2000).]
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A5 is now my a2a ride of choice, under 15k that is. P47 is my choice up high, although I haven't gotten here up over 25k yet. Jabo has me confused now. I don't know what to fly. I love the a8 w/ 30mm for jabo missions, and that's the only time I fly the a8 now. BUT that damned thunderbolt has SO MUCH AMMO good gosh! 2500lbs of bombs! plus 10 HE rockets and 2400 roudns of 50 cal!!!!!!!
I created a mission last weekend in which we actualy got 20 hvy p47 in formation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) We each had 2k of bombs and 10 rockets. That's 40,000 lbs of bombs!!!!!!!!!!! and that's before you even count the 400 HE rockes we had also (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That's alot of ordinance. What other plane can cary that much?
Udie
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F4U and P-38 can carry the 2 x 1000 lb + 10 x HVAR if I am not mistaken.
P.S. Anybody notice that the A-5 and P-47 are a hell of a lot of fun to fight eachother in? I've been on either side of this one and it was a blast.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-30-2000).]
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yeah but the 47 will take another 500 lb on the fuse (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) 20 fully loaded p47's is 50,000lbs of bombs and 200 rockets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
udie
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well ruide you are an excellent pony pilot, but why on earth would you fly with the aux tank full???? if you fly as well as you do with that thing full of gas <S> because it performs like a pig in that config for me.
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Aces High P51:
"The fuel system consists of two 92-gallon wing tanks and an 85-gallon fuselage
tank. Loading fuel in the fuselage tank hampers the stability of the P-51 by
shifting the CG aft. For this reason, the tank was to be used first- even before the
drop tanks so that the CG would shift back to a more optimal position. In Aces
High, no fuel is loaded into the fuselage tank until the wing tanks are full. If you
take a large fuel load, you should follow the same strategy and use the fuel in the
fuselage tank first."
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RAM,
You read a little more into my statement than was intended. NACA took the BMW801 engine apart and examined it thoroughly as well. All I am saying is that they liked the Pratt and Whitney engines. When I want to pick a fight I'll let you know.
By the way, what made you become a Bish?
It's mostly Amercian Iron over here.
I wish we played in a more historic plane set. I would much rather shoot Axis planes and there pilots than chase P-51's all over.
I fight better knowing that I might get a kill message that say's "you shot down RAM"
Hehe.
See ya
F4UDOA
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
By the way, what made you become a Bish?
It's mostly Amercian Iron over here.
I wish we played in a more historic plane set. I would much rather shoot Axis planes and there pilots than chase P-51's all over.
I fight better knowing that I might get a kill message that say's "you shot down RAM"
Hehe.
See ya
F4UDOA
So far I dont rember being shot down by you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...
I changed to bishland because for personal motivations I left JG2-And i wanted to check another countries for a while. Right now I like what I see in Bishland, so maybe I'll stay longer than planned, if I find a squad that matches my expectations.
About Bishland being a mainly american iron country, I know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). So I came to bring redemption to the bishcuits with my 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (J/K).
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Well Zig....<S> back atcha (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I load heavy for a reason...I cant tell ya what it is cause it gives me a decided advantage over most other aircraft.
Give it some thought and I'm sure you will figure it out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas Up!
Rude Out!
PS...After some thought myself, try it in your a5...should yield the same result, perhaps better.
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 06-30-2000).]
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Could we be talking.... zoom? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Should help dive acceleration at high speeds too, once your prop becomes a brake. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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funked, let's say climb and acceleration are closely related but that there are other factors that can affect either. For instance.... A Corsair will climb and accelerate identically to an A6m5 ("real" not AH) up to 10K with the corsair having a much higher top speed than the A6M5 but.. A Hog and a 190A5 will both accelerate the same (again, real life not AH) the same but the A5 will outclimb the Hog and the Hog is slightly faster while both have the same LB/HP.
lazs
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Acceleration and climb rate (both measured at the same speed) are directly related. At higher speeds, the F4U should have better acceleration than the Zeke, and this would show up if you did a high-speed climb. However climb rate in that one test was measured at a low speed, and there the planes were equal. If the A-5 and -1D were truly equals in acceleration at all speeds, then their climb rates must have been measured at different speeds.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-01-2000).]
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Funked,
Your right, F4U was superior under apprx. 160MPH. I am not looking at the report to be more specific. I talked to Wells about this one. It is possible that the Cowl flaps open during climb could have been responsable for the slower rate. Where as accelleration would have been unaffected.
By the way, could you repost your link for that NACA roll info. Can't seem to get their from here and it looks like good stuff
Thanx
F4UDOA
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ok funked but... That's a little missleading since speed falls off so rapidly in climb. If you pick a climb speed that you can maintain to reach 20K the climb will be much less than if you only want to measure max climb at sea level to a a thousand feet or so or best initial climb. Still.... With the same lb/hp and the same acceleration in the testing, why would the Corsair climb so poorly compared to the A5? Real tests show the Hog outaccelerating a P51, A6m5 and vitually identical to the A5. This is far from the case in AH. The AH A6m5, P51 and A5 all outclimb the Hogs by 200-600 fpm and easily out accelerate it. At one point the A5 climbs 4100 fpm or, 1100 fpm better than the Hogs best! does that seem right to you?
lazs
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Fixed the roll link.
Lazs:
"With the same lb/hp and the same acceleration in the testing, why would the Corsair climb so poorly compared to the A5?"
For the third time: If two planes have the same level flight acceleration at a given speed and altitude, then the sustained climb rates at that speed are equal at that altitude. The fact that the USN found equal acceleration and unequal climb rates means one of their observations was wrong. This is why subjective comparisons like this need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Also:
11988/2135 = 5.61
8690/1720 = 5.05
5.61 is not equal to 5.05.
Finally, what power settings were being used for climb and acceleration? It appears WEP was used by the USN only for top speed tests. But for some reason you are trying to compare the WEP climb and acceleration performance of these two aircraft in Aces High. If you compare the non-WEP performance, like the USN did, the differences are not that large, and it is hard to choose between them over 10,000 feet.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-02-2000).]
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Funked,
Thanks for fixing that link. Do you have the F4U roll data as well? I wish that NACA server would search by document number because it is very difficult to find data in it's current format.
Anyway Funked on the Climb and accelleration from. Wells did a calculation that showed if the cowl flaps were open during climb on the F4U(as was standard practice) the added drag would have slowed down climb considerably. However during level flight accelleration they would be closed not affecting the side by side accelleration with the FW-190.
Also you have the power loading for the F4U listed as 2135Hp. Depending on the source it is also listed as 2250HP bringing it a little closer. The Hellcat had the same engine and also the same rated HP. Bringing me to my second point. Based on the sea level performance of the F4U vrs the F6F. I have serveral pieces of documentaion that show the F4U out climbing the F6F but the listed performance data would seem to contradict that by showing the F6F with a higher rate of climb. Whatever the case is in climb it is very hard to explain the differance in level flight speed at sea level between these two A/C considering they have very similer drag coefficients (the F4U is slightly lower) identical weights and power ratings. Yet the F4U is some 30MPH faster at sea level. It is just an example of how an intagable feature of an A/C can make flight performance change drastically. The reason is as I have read that the F4U air induction is much more efficient in low blower at low alt. The speed difference narrows at higher alt. But this may also be a factor in the F4U, FW190 comparison. Since the A5 also used a Radial with multple blower stages and had similar speed as the F6F at low alt. The climb comparison between F4U and F6F raises many questions for me. If you look at the listed performance data for the two A/C you would think that the F6F would outclimb the F4U. And by that you can also say it could out accellerate the F4U. Except that every piece of comparitive data would say the contrary as well as the performance calculation I believe. I will run some numbers to check it. In any case it is just an example of a contradictory flight vrs physics model.
Later F4UDOA
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funked... 2130-2180hp are figures for 5-8K in fact, 2135 is at 12K. the real numbers for sea level are 2250hp for the 8 and 10w engines. And i agree... the conservative testing doesn't match the comparisson testing done during the war with real planes flying off against each other. I tend to think the latter is better for comparisson purposes in a sim.... Using those tests, AH is so far off the mark that they should just drop the Corsair altogether until they can figure out what they did wrong. The A5 seems fine.... Just fix most of the others now.
lazs