Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: ImADot on July 18, 2009, 11:39:26 AM
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Wow, I've heard of devotion to one's emperor, but holy smokes.
I fly FSO with the 325th Checkertails and we annihilated the squad of B5N's shortly before T+60; not one got through to CV25. We capped the CV for the next hour with no contacts. With only 5-10 minutes left in the frame our scouts started home and we got into the recovery pattern to call it a night. Five minutes before the end of the frame, we spot a low scout and a minute later we find the rest of the zekes coming in 15k+. We did our best to get them, but all they did was dive down, pickle their bombs at 2k and auger into the CV.
The CV was lightly damaged, but a few of us were caught still airborne trying to land when the call came out that the logs have been closed. What was that squad thinking? Apparently not bringing home their planes.
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If you don't have time to get back to your own boat, why not?
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Wow, I've heard of devotion to one's emperor, but holy smokes.
I fly FSO with the 325th Checkertails and we annihilated the squad of B5N's shortly before T+60; not one got through to CV25. We capped the CV for the next hour with no contacts. With only 5-10 minutes left in the frame our scouts started home and we got into the recovery pattern to call it a night. Five minutes before the end of the frame, we spot a low scout and a minute later we find the rest of the zekes coming in 15k+. We did our best to get them, but all they did was dive down, pickle their bombs at 2k and auger into the CV.
The CV was lightly damaged, but a few of us were caught still airborne trying to land when the call came out that the logs have been closed. What was that squad thinking? Apparently not bringing home their planes.
I say bonus points for authenticity. :D
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Thats pretty cool i think. Poor guys got stuck in b5ns and all died. Got back together and went kamikazie on ya.. You got your kills, and they died hoborably, twice! :salute
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Just when you think that the night is over. Land your plane. Head down to the O'club.
WHAM!!! The enemy makes a late night surprise Kamikaze attack.
:salute to those who never give up and never surrender!!!
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Wow. They just dove in and killed themselves?
That hurts the Axis score.
Of course if they figured the CV was just about dead and knew they 'might' be able to sink it I can see heading back for a one way trip, but I would have dropped my eggs, extended and then ditched a few miles out before the logs closed. Some Admin's might count a death as more compared to a ditch. Don't know.
Our squad made it back with a couple SBD's and 3 F6F's. We considered going to back to sink the CV, but we we not sure we could sink it. If I had known for sure we could sink it we probably would have headed back for the one way trip because we would not have had time to return a 2nd time. We opted to save the value of our aircraft and not go back on a gamble.
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ImaDot generally has it correct on the timing of the attack to CV 25. I disagree with some of above replies. Kamikaze style attacks are for the MA and have no place in the FSO. "Rolling Thunder" was the squad that hit CV 25 with about 10 minutes left in the game with several of their pilots killed between H+115 and H+119 according to the logs. The closest IJN CV was "probably 75 - 100 miles away at that point.
Its one thing to up and attempt a strike to a heavily defended objective and know that high casualties are going to be part of the price. In this case there was no hope of the squad returning in time to land. And to plan it that way isn't in the spirit of the FSO. Again MA style tactics.
In my opinion 2 critical factors failed on the AXIS side last night. The Squad CO planned and commanded the "One way mission". The AXIS CIC did not call or enforce a "General RTB" for his late frame strike packages to get them back aboard his CV's by H+120.
In the 6 years I have been apart of the FSO events this is the first time I have even witnesses something like this. This is the first time I can remember that the 325th every landed after H+120. The FSO is about adding a factor of realism to a sim game combining it with larger formations and command and control. If the FSO begins to revert to nothing more than MA style tactics then what is best about the FSO will be lost and attendance will suffer.
Additionally what happened afterward was that 4X (CM) refused my request for a 5 minute extension to land our aircraft on CV 25. The 325th lost 3 AC due to this according to the logs. All of the 325th AC were down and towered by H+125. Not my plan to be flying past H+120 but forced into a fight over my own CV with no time remaining. We had no choice but to fight and then land as quickly as we could which we did. I don't believe that the 325th VFG or the ALLIED side should be penalized with "lost" AC because we were being attacked at H+119 while trying to land at our CV.
Enough on what happened.
What I would like to see from the CM's on this issue is a change to the scoring system in which a very high point value penalty for any AC still in the air after H+120. Similar to what the CM's have done to control max altitude Restrictions by placing a hurricane force down draft at specific altitudes. Personally I believe that a -100 point penalty for every AC still in the air after H+121 would fix this issue as no one AC can cause that much "positive point" damage before losing -100. Also adding more positive points for every AC safely landed before H+120 would help as well. And in the case of entire squad in violation of the H+120 rule such as what happened last night........ I leave that up to the CM's to enforce and keep this opinion to myself.
Viper 61
Ops Officer
325th VFG
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What I would like to see from the CM's on this issue is a change to the scoring system in which a very high point value penalty for any AC still in the air after H+120. Similar to what the CM's have done to control max altitude Restrictions by placing a hurricane force down draft at specific altitudes. Personally I believe that a -100 point penalty for every AC still in the air after H+121 would fix this issue as no one AC can cause that much "positive point" damage before losing -100. Also adding more positive points for every AC safely landed before H+120 would help as well. And in the case of entire squad in violation of the H+120 rule such as what happened last night........ I leave that up to the CM's to enforce and keep this opinion to myself.
If that were the case last night, I'd have just pulled the plug the moment we lost our carrier. I flew for over 45 minutes just trying to get to the nearest CV and still missed it after trying to complete our mission objectives. If you're near the center of the line, you've got options. Out at the flanks, there's nothing.
I was just ten miles out from my tertiary divert when the CM closed the logs.
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T+1:19:59....
Enter Enter Enter....
.ef
No planes in flight same effect.
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Daddog:
No the second strike to CV 25 was to a "None damaged CV" as their first attack failed about 20 miles from CV25 at H+60. The second attack was with about 15-20 Zero's hauling ords (mini bombs). There was no hope of the sinking CV25 with the ord package the zero's carry or with the numbers they had even if the ack had been turned off and the Air CAP gone at CV 25.
Your call was right on to land and tower out. Perserve your pilots and AC and not restrike if you can't make it back in time.
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I'm sorry but I'm aware of more then one occasion where 2nd strikes were ordered and launched with no chance to RTB. I've also landed more then once while a CV or field was still under attack at the end of the event. That doesnt mean the attack made sense but it certainly isnt against the rules as I understand them...
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I didn't make it back in time after the first strike. :eek:
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:salute Viper,
First you need to ask. Where any rules broken? Then you need to ask, did they follow orders.
We where tasked to hit 2 cv's with B5n's. Before T+60. I think that says enough right there.
Our orders where as follows.
up b5n's with bombs. follow white line. Target 6 and 5. hit one and rearm at 16 if needed, if you have load left proceed to 5.you get a second life in plane of choice so if your targets are dead up a a6m loaded and regroup as defense or watch for text of valid targets otherwise regroup and keep hitting your target.
We made our best efforts to hit both cv's minutes before T+60.
We sunk a cv last week with only 7 good hits with our zero's. So when we left to hit CV25(target 5) with 12 zeros , we felt we could get the job done. CV25 was the closest target to the nearest cv to up from. Not sure where you get your 15-20 numbers, but war does get a bit foggy at times. Most of our order didn't make sense, but we followed them. I think most will agree here we got handed some crappy orders so we made the best of it. Did we break any rules, I think not.
:salute
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I'm sorry but I'm aware of more then one occasion where 2nd strikes were ordered and launched with no chance to RTB. I've also landed more then once while a CV or field was still under attack at the end of the event. That doesnt mean the attack made sense but it certainly isnt against the rules as I understand them...
:aok
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I have been in many many FSO's and actually commanded perhaps 2, the latter being one. Every squad saw how much time was left in the frame and knew without me saying when they should probobally make the return trip home for survival. We lost a couple of our Cvs and A few squads were unable to return because of fuel and or time. The squad that went kamakazi did so on their own accord. My C.O. drew up the plans with some input from me and I followed that plan as best as I could. Personaly, I would rather ditch than die. And there have been many times where I knew we could not possibly make it back to base because of distance and fuel, so we made the best of it. If you want realism in a FSO, you got a dose of it with the kamakazi attack because that is what happened. I don't want to do it, I didn't want anyone to do it, but it happened and so be it. For that matter, any damage that a plane could incure should be included, if you want it to be real. If you look back into history, we shouldn't have done nearly as well as we did. I think we have some real good tacticians in this event and occasionaly even I shine a bit. I'm sorry for anyone who didn't understand what we were doing. I was hoping to get on this over last weekend, but the objectives came out late. Not excusing anything, it was just a factor. There was even a squad who never got the orders we sent and at the last minute while I'm trying to co-ordinate everyone else and my squad, I have to tell them what they have to do. It comes with the territory and I'll take the blame for the outcome if there is blame to be had! But I thought my team did an exceptional job. And I think the allies did well with their late strikes. I'm looking forward to frame 3.
:salute
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See Rule #4
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NOT FOR FSO :rofl
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/nikomon/plane.jpg)
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I'm sorry but I find your entire tone to be offensive. I have a great appreciation for everyone who makes FSO possible and contributes at the command level....however to come across with a "my @#$% doesn't stink" attitude gains you nothing and costs you at least my respect. As a further observation "you" didnt win....the 240+ guys on your team did. Possibly in part as a result of stellar orders...and possibly in spite of them. But with 100% certainty because of countless decisions made in the midst of the conflict. True leaders absorb all blame and deflect all credit back to where they know it belongs....think about it :salute
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I have to agree with Humble. The FSO is all that's left where you can find a sense of WWII air combat in AH.
It's spirit as you seem to be making fun of is a refreshing change from the gamey attitude of the Main Arenas where challenge is second and the easiest way and easiest plane is the norm.
I hope attitudes like yours are not the future of the FSO. If so it means the decline of the last refuge of any historical challenge and just another place for gamey tactics and personalities.
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back on topic...
Did the kamikaze group know that a "kamikaze" into a ship in AHII does not effect the ship itself?
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We did not Kamikaze! We dropped bombs and either the ack got us or hellcats. The intent was to drop the CV and then egress . I think according to the logs, one zero hit the cv because he could no longer control his plane. It took us longer to find the CV again than expected.
I find it humorous that last week there was a post of a lone zero who kamikaze the cv and it was the funniest thing anyone has seen. But this week it's the worst thing they have seen in 6 years of FSO Just because 3 hellcats couldn't recover at the end.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,268639.0.html
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Thank you for clearing that up sir.
I was going to find it hilarious if a whole squad kamikazied themselves
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My hats off to the Rolling Thunder for staying with it. :aokI know you guys got creamed at the start. It must have been frustrating as you were left out in the wind. I will strive to do better the next time around.
:salute
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My hats off to the Rolling Thunder for staying with it. :aokI know you guys got creamed at the start. It must have been frustrating as you were left out in the wind. I will strive to do better the next time around.
:salute
yeah the b5n is probably the worst plane in the game :rolleyes: but it does not matter. You gave us orders and we did everything we could to complete them.TO me this is the spirit of the game. Everyone has their turn of uber planes and the least desirable ones too :P.
<S!> for doing your part on the CIC duties.
I do not recall teaching ramming tactics to my squad and I have a reputation of that of "old blood and guts" when it comes to anyone on my team acting out of line. So I will ask to see the video if one exists?
Rolling Thunder has been called a lot of things before :o but never Kamikazes :rofl .
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Good discussion in this thread. I used "Kamikaze" in the spirit of the one-way trip with no hope of returning home. I saw most of you guys dive on the boat, pickle you bombs and disappear. As mentioned earlier, you probably died to ack or to us flying cap...in any case, you hit the boat with bombs (cuz hitting with the plane would do nothing). :salute
The big issue here is one of the cap...should we have all landed and towered out safely on time; leaving you guys a clear shot at hitting the boat? Is it fair to us to lose planes to the closed logs because we encountered your last-minute strike while we were starting our landing procedures - when you would have lost yours in either case (logs closed while in flight or killed by ack)?
Not an easy answer either way. Last thing we need is more rules, but consider the game of Golf: Rules [and more importantly Decisions on the Rules] are made to handle specific real-life situations.
Should there be an FSO rule regarding attacks after T+110? "To allow all players the chance to safely land their planes, any attacks after T+110 will be disregarded for matters of kills, score and point totals."
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The big issue here is one of the cap...should we have all landed and towered out safely on time; leaving you guys a clear shot at hitting the boat? Is it fair to us to lose planes to the closed logs because we encountered your last-minute strike while we were starting our landing procedures - when you would have lost yours in either case (logs closed while in flight or killed by ack)?
This situation is pretty much the worst. Attacking that late guaranteed either that most of the pilots have either logged for the night or recovered, any others still up would face being up in the air at +120 with no CV to land on. Its very gamey, its very lame and anyone trying to use this tactic in order to "get moar pointz" should re-think their contribution in FSO.
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Additionally what happened afterward was that 4X (CM) refused my request for a 5 minute extension to land our aircraft on CV 25. The 325th lost 3 AC due to this according to the logs. All of the 325th AC were down and towered by H+125. Not my plan to be flying past H+120 but forced into a fight over my own CV with no time remaining. We had no choice but to fight and then land as quickly as we could which we did. I don't believe that the 325th VFG or the ALLIED side should be penalized with "lost" AC because we were being attacked at H+119 while trying to land at our CV.
Yes Viper61, you did ask for an extension. I will normally allow some leeway for pilots eggressing at the end of a frame, and I did. I'm sorry that your guys got caught trying to RTB to a TG that got hit late by the axis side.
My job as an FSO CM has me doing many things. One of which is that I open the logs and close the logs at the End of the frame.. T+120. The Admin CM interprets the logs, and scores it accordingly. It is not my job to agree or disagree with a particular battle plan. Having been an FSO CM for a bit, it has been quite routine that "most" aircraft are to RTB at T+105. This FSO has been anything but routine, but on the other hand quite interesting. It has generated a lot of discussion involving tactics and implementation.
I hope that these continue to make FSO an enjoyable experience for everyone involved.
4XTCH
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This is what time I departed the CV in my A6m looking for enemy carrier group.
23:24:52 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #17.
That's up with 35 minutes left, we were not making a last 10 minute decision to up for a no return flight - Was further away then we suspected at first. And yes we didnt RTB when we had a chance, oops. :D
Just try not to be close minded- look into stuff before saying everyone in a squad using MA Kamikaze tactics. Thanks
To those with good discussion, CiC, and all involved with the creation of the FSO
:salute
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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Your about to lose.
Your attitude toward other community members in FSO is derogatory and insulting. Many that have posted in this thread have shown time and time again they want what is best for this event. Agree or disagree at least they at least care and don’t insult others in the process as you have.
PM will follow.
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Feel free to come to the con and discuss this with me in person, over a beer or in the parking lot....your call.
I realize thats an immature and childish comment. However like most folks I reach a point where the internet tough guy syndrome gets old. I've been here since the Beta and I can think of a dozen squads that bring the mail just about every time up. They act with a measure of professionalism and respect toward each other, the rest of us, the event command team and the spirit of what FSO tries to represent. We all have our moments, hopefully mostly good and occasionally less the stellar. From your comments here I think you rank right up there with Larry in attitude...
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This is my log for the night:
Cee64E
22:00:54 Departed from Field #16 in a B5N2
22:35:51 Was shot down by dewbydo (crashed).
(half an hour crawling through the sky in that wannabe cessna an I get bounced. Frak!)
22:37:53 Departed from Field #16 in a Gunner-Observer
22:53:25 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
(Double Frak! Bounced again! Time to get some for me) :furious
23:01:43 Departed from Field #16 in a A6M5b
23:06:41 Helps Cobra9 shoot down Solar.
(TAKE THAT!)
23:25:51 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #17.
(Where the heck ARE the... Oh. There they are.. )
23:55:50 Destroyed a armored gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a soft gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a soft gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
(Take THAT TOO!!! BONZAI!!!!) :devil
23:56:31 Was shot down by joedog (crashed).
(AGGHHH! FRAKFRAKFRAK!!!)
I Love the action in FSO. The planning, the hunting, the challenge. I'm just an average stick but FSO is making me better and our squadron is becoming a more cohesive, more disciplined fighting unit. No kamikaze attack was planned and if joedog hadn't got me I would have zoomed as far up and out as possible and hit the silk,if needed, but after the beating we took in that B5N before we even SAW our targets, I wanted to score some hits.
Getting the crap ride once in a while is just part of the exercise. It teaches you how to lose well. The second life was the bonus for me, I KNEW we could down a carrier with just zekes. I helped down the one last week.
You guys talking about not being able to land before we hit, well, sorry about your luck but that's war. Ask anyone who's been there. Ask the Pilots from the Yorktown how it felt to watch their home go up in flames. We knew we were the turkey's in this turkey-shoot, but we played anyway because we love the game, not just winning it. We play by the rules, we follow orders and we do play to win. We don't tolerate "gamey" pilots in this squad. You fly right or you fly with someone else. But we do have more than a few hot sticks, we learn what they know and we get better. My goal is ALWAYS to land my kills and someday I'll be good enough to do that consistently, until then I will fly to the best of my ability and skill and make it as hard as I can for the "enemy" to do the same. ("...make the other poor bast.. er um pilot die for His Country" G.S. Patton)
<Salute> to all the pilots who fly in FSO and the great guys who take time out of their busy schedules to make FSO the great event that it is AND pay for the privilege to do so.
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:salute Cee64E :salute
Good attitude.
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This is my log for the night:
Cee64E
22:00:54 Departed from Field #16 in a B5N2
22:35:51 Was shot down by dewbydo (crashed).
(half an hour crawling through the sky in that wannabe cessna an I get bounced. Frak!)
22:37:53 Departed from Field #16 in a Gunner-Observer
22:53:25 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
(Double Frak! Bounced again! Time to get some for me) :furious
23:01:43 Departed from Field #16 in a A6M5b
23:06:41 Helps Cobra9 shoot down Solar.
(TAKE THAT!)
23:25:51 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #17.
(Where the heck ARE the... Oh. There they are.. )
23:55:50 Destroyed a armored gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a soft gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a soft gun battery at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
23:55:50 Destroyed a field gun at base #25
(Take THAT TOO!!! BONZAI!!!!) :devil
23:56:31 Was shot down by joedog (crashed).
(AGGHHH! FRAKFRAKFRAK!!!)
I Love the action in FSO. The planning, the hunting, the challenge. I'm just an average stick but FSO is making me better and our squadron is becoming a more cohesive, more disciplined fighting unit. No kamikaze attack was planned and if joedog hadn't got me I would have zoomed as far up and out as possible and hit the silk,if needed, but after the beating we took in that B5N before we even SAW our targets, I wanted to score some hits.
Getting the crap ride once in a while is just part of the exercise. It teaches you how to lose well. The second life was the bonus for me, I KNEW we could down a carrier with just zekes. I helped down the one last week.
You guys talking about not being able to land before we hit, well, sorry about your luck but that's war. Ask anyone who's been there. Ask the Pilots from the Yorktown how it felt to watch their home go up in flames. We knew we were the turkey's in this turkey-shoot, but we played anyway because we love the game, not just winning it. We play by the rules, we follow orders and we do play to win. We don't tolerate "gamey" pilots in this squad. You fly right or you fly with someone else. But we do have more than a few hot sticks, we learn what they know and we get better. My goal is ALWAYS to land my kills and someday I'll be good enough to do that consistently, until then I will fly to the best of my ability and skill and make it as hard as I can for the "enemy" to do the same. ("...make the other poor bast.. er um pilot die for His Country" G.S. Patton)
<Salute> to all the pilots who fly in FSO and the great guys who take time out of their busy schedules to make FSO the great event that it is AND pay for the privilege to do so.
Humm....thought BONZAI was a really small tree! Didn't mean BANZAI???? lol, I already done told u that during the FSO bro... :lol
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Humm....thought BONZAI was a really small tree! Didn't mean BANZAI???? lol, I already done told u that during the FSO bro... :lol
Bonsai is the tree.
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Good discussion in this thread. I used "Kamikaze" in the spirit of the one-way trip with no hope of returning home. I saw most of you guys dive on the boat, pickle you bombs and disappear. As mentioned earlier, you probably died to ack or to us flying cap...in any case, you hit the boat with bombs (cuz hitting with the plane would do nothing). :salute
The big issue here is one of the cap...should we have all landed and towered out safely on time; leaving you guys a clear shot at hitting the boat? Is it fair to us to lose planes to the closed logs because we encountered your last-minute strike while we were starting our landing procedures - when you would have lost yours in either case (logs closed while in flight or killed by ack)?
Not an easy answer either way. Last thing we need is more rules, but consider the game of Golf: Rules [and more importantly Decisions on the Rules] are made to handle specific real-life situations.
Should there be an FSO rule regarding attacks after T+110? "To allow all players the chance to safely land their planes, any attacks after T+110 will be disregarded for matters of kills, score and point totals."
This would be tough to police. Even in the euro theater there are many times planes are patrolling right off the beach at the end of frame awaiting those having to land to make the time. The situation gets worse depending on the aircraft involved. Have seen to many times 262's trying to get there last kills on buffs and other aircraft knowing that they can cross the distance to land in a fourth of the time it takes to get props on the ground.
Also have seen many occasions where 2 aircraft harass the only base for a few sectors an entire squadron trying to land before time ends. 2 aircraft versus 10-12 that dont make it is good odds. Policing this would be a nightmare, many get hung up trying to make it home, some have to divert due to non-availbility of landing feilds. Not to mention those that get held up with no hope of getting home in time, so they divert to attack on their way back to take out a few more objects.
Lastly, how would one really know if a person just compressed, lost controls or got hit by ack that made them seem like a death dive near the end rather than a last minute object destroyed even though they would not make it back.
Definitely a hard one to police.