Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Spatula on March 06, 2001, 05:11:00 PM
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IMO a 109 G10 should easily out spiral climb a N1K2 given an equal E situation.
How much of a factor is altitude? Say 20K?
Situation:
g10 and niki both slow (150 IAS) @ 20K approx with around 1K seperation. 109 starts spiral climb, about a 30 degree bank with WEP engaged and about 25% jiuce and starts a spiral climb pulling enough nose-up to ride the egde of a stall. N1K2 is following with no decrease in seperation, then looks to go nose low and looks to be cutting the corner, then all of a sudden the closure increases rapdidly, N1k2 ends up D500 spraying at 109 wildly and picks 109s wing off - game over.
How effective would a low-yoyo be at cuttin the corner (so to speak) and sqeezin off a round or two to kill the G10?
I was in 109 and someone else in niki. Im not much of a 109 pilot or a niki pilot, so can someone comment on this situation plz.
Thnx.
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Keep that G10 faster in the spiral climb against a Nikki- the Japanese planes could as a rule climb at steeper angles than most other countries' a/c. At 20K the G10 ought to walk away from the Nikki in a climb- so long as you don't allow yourself to slow down too much. Keep it near stall and the Nikki can hang long enough to kill you for sure.
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jap planes can climb at a high angle well because they dont weigh much (less armor)
what bothers me is that if the niki can do those verticals so well because of less weight, how come it can take a beating almost as well as a jug.
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The 109 should be able to leave the N1K in the dust at 20K. Leave, climb, and come back for him. I'd have to guess you'd have at least a 30mph advantage over him that high. Seems to me the N1K is running out of power that high.
-Soda
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I've had the same thing happen Spatula. Not sure what the answer is. I just dont spiral climb with Niks anymore. Seems they can stall, drop nose for 2 seconds, then start right back up after you.
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
I've had the same thing happen Spatula. Not sure what the answer is. I just dont spiral climb with Niks anymore. Seems they can stall, drop nose for 2 seconds, then start right back up after you.
That is called a fake stall, Raub (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm serious: even when the N1K2 is a plane very popular between the newbies in AH, there are some damned awesome sticks on it who will get you when you less expect it.
This guys will "fake" that you have caught them in a rope-a-dope, and when you come screaming down towards him...WOOPLA!, you find he is hitting you with 20mms...
The guy who does this thing as noone is Citabria...but he does it in all the planes! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). A dedicated N1K2 driver I see doing this very well is a japanese dude called drz or something like that.
This fakes are mortal for the E-fighter engaging the Nik...dude, you think he is stalling and he is yours and suddenly you find yourself flying in the middle of a fire storm! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I think that the worse problem with the N1k is that a plane as light as it is, with an engine as powerful as it has, should have more noticeable torque at very low speeds. As it is is practically a viceless plane. (and you all know my opinion about its UFO e-retention (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)).
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Not talking about a fake stall RAM. Talking about a full-on, drop a wing, lose all lift stall. Nothing seems to recover faster from one of these than the N1K.
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30mph?! 30MPH!!! The G-10 has a whopping 75MPH speed advantage at 20,000ft. In fact, the only fighters slower than the N1K2-J at 20,000ft are the mighty MC.202 and A6M5b. Perk 'em quick!
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Originally posted by juzz:
30mph?! 30MPH!!! The G-10 has a whopping 75MPH speed advantage at 20,000ft. In fact, the only fighters slower than the N1K2-J at 20,000ft are the mighty MC.202 and A6M5b. Perk 'em quick!
juzz,
What are you talking about here?
Nobody mentioned 30mph.
The situation described by Spatula is as follows:
Originally posted by Spatula:
Situation:
g10 and niki both slow (150 IAS) @ 20K approx with around 1K seperation.
Then:
109 starts spiral climb, about a 30 degree bank with WEP engaged and about 25% jiuce and starts a spiral climb pulling enough nose-up to ride the egde of a stall. N1K2 is following with no decrease in seperation, then looks to go nose low and looks to be cutting the corner, then all of a sudden the closure increases rapdidly, N1k2 ends up D500 spraying at 109 wildly and picks 109s wing off - game over.
Its a 30% bank, not a 30mph speed advantage that is mentioned.
I don't fly N1K2's that high so I don't know how it handles, but given its performance down low, it might still have a bit of oomph to its acceleration up there. That's just a guess though.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Spat, 1k separation is way too close to commence a spiral climb against ANY aircraft.
By turning you are giving your opponent the chance to close 2-300 yds simply through arcing. And a Nik at 700yds range is a formidable opponent (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Better to run level, let your separation increase to 2k or so, then commence a turning climb at about 250mph. The Nik won't be able to close, due to your speed, and if he tries to match your speed he'll rapidly fall below you, in perfect position for a 'high-low' attack.
I remember in WB when the 109K4 was released. I think it was Kats who said "Nothing will catch the 109K4 in a 500ft/min climb at 350mph".
Keep it fast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I agree with Jekyll, there was no where near enough seperation to even think about a spiral climb.
Especially if you pulled up into a stall speed climb/turn.
A properly executed spiral climb from relative Co-E situation is a long drawn out process, no matter what the two aircraft are.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Karnak - what Soda said. If the N1K2-J was only 30mph slower than the G-10, then it would do 415mph - faster than the Fw 190A-5! It actually does a rather pitiful(for a 1945 fighter) 370mph. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I flew a few missions in a niki last night. It is of course an excellent plane. What I noticed that seemed extrordinarily wierd was a landing. I was out of gas but too fast to land properly. I tried to force it down but could not. I had gear and flaps full down and 100 mph at 20 feet when I over shot the end of the runway. I could not believe that in any other plane I would land that sortie. But the niki seemed to be ok so I pulled the gear and the flaps in and turned left towards the other runway.(medium field). The plane coasted along like my RC sailplane. I easily made it to the field rolling on the ground for the last 200 yards.
I had no fuel in the plane but I had 100s of rounds of cannon left. I just could not believe the glide capability of the niki. I was so slow and low when I over shot that I would have expected any turn to stall me. but I made it back to the other runway.
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Yes Pongo, it happens also with other planes. Take the 205 for example. I often come back gliding to my airfield without fuel. Well, I can *glide* (engine stopped) during my landing pattern at 180-200mph a lot (too much, that is) without losing alt. For a 3,400Kg kite with an high wing-load this is pretty weird. This is an heritage from the 1.03 new flight model.
I still believe that this FM is too much E-saving. Maybe correct as far as turn rates are concerned but a/c retain too much E. IMHO, of course.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
I flew a few missions in a niki last night. It is of course an excellent plane. What I noticed that seemed extrordinarily wierd was a landing. I was out of gas but too fast to land properly. I tried to force it down but could not. I had gear and flaps full down and 100 mph at 20 feet when I over shot the end of the runway. I could not believe that in any other plane I would land that sortie. But the niki seemed to be ok so I pulled the gear and the flaps in and turned left towards the other runway.(medium field). The plane coasted along like my RC sailplane. I easily made it to the field rolling on the ground for the last 200 yards.
I had no fuel in the plane but I had 100s of rounds of cannon left. I just could not believe the glide capability of the niki. I was so slow and low when I over shot that I would have expected any turn to stall me. but I made it back to the other runway.
Like I've been telling in one thread; I suspect that planes are gliding too good now after the fix, when planes didnt glide for nothing.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 03-07-2001).]
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juzz,
Oops, I didn't see that post. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
In that case you are quite right,the Bf109G-10 is MUCH faster than the N1K2 at 20k.
In this case the Bf109G-10 should have simply extended and then climbed. There is nothing the N1K2 could have done about it.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Niki performs too well in the vertical, frankly there is no doubt of this anymore even pyro said a while back that there is something off in its verical climbing performance. I have outclimbed expertly flown P51s at 28k in a 75% fueled niki, so much so that I forced them to dive away as my closure rate would put them in my guns range.
Nikis retain E far too well for vertical manuovers after extremly hard turns and breaks. I speak from experience here lots and lots of both flying nikis and fighting them in G-10s, and have seen them keep with me in zoom climb even close unless I had tremendous initial speed advantage. A 109 G10 will outclimb a niki no doubt but the advantage is so minor due to nikis reluctance to stall in pure vericals as to give the 109 few options to attack the niki. The 109 will always stall before the niki in this situation, often I find myself flopping like a fish stalled on top of my zoom and the lower E state niki is still climbing and of curse spraying madly with its cannon. This is another issue that drives me nuts it seems that recoil isnt effective in slowing planes down in zoom climbs and causing them to stall. There is a recoil effect in autoclimb and level flight, but i have not noticed such an effect at all in zooms- the vsi keeps at 4000fpm plus all the way till stall when it suddenly drops- there is never a gradual decline caused by gun recoil. Nikis arent right, im no aerodynamics expert but it doesnt feel like the other planes in here. Im sorry if that isnt good enough for some of you but I can only speak from my extensive experience flying in and fighting vs the niki. Ive said this before and will reapeat in endlessly the niki roughly has the FM of the Janes WW2 Fighters Spit9, climbs turns at will, regains speed immediatly after stall, useless stalls etc etc- I flew WW2Fighters for online almost 2 Years on a dailiy basis and I swear they have damn simmilar FM. This is a shame on AH.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
...There is a recoil effect in autoclimb and level flight, but i have not noticed such an effect at all in zooms- the vsi keeps at 4000fpm plus all the way till stall when it suddenly drops- there is never a gradual decline caused by gun recoil...
Considering that 4000fpm is 45mph going straight up, I dont expect you would see recoil effecting the vsi before a stall. Even in a 45 degree zoom that vsi will be pegged till the plane drops below 65mph
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Yeah, basically the N1k used a little low yoyo to cut inside your turn and nail you. Let's face it, AH is pretty generous on the gunnery model, so that 1K separation is not very much - it's extreme gun range. Couple that with the lack of serious recoil effects, and shooting on the edge of the stall is no big deal.
What all this boils down to is that you must be very careful when initiating a spiral climb against any opponent in a co-E state. Given the situation you described, I would think that a very shallow initial climb to gain some speed would have been helpful before starting the spiral. The G10 will outrun, outclimb, and out accelerate the N1k at 20k. However, you've got to expect to lose 2-300 yards when you start the spiral, and ideally you'd like your opponent outside of gun range during the spiral.
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Spat, 1k separation is way too close to commence a spiral climb against ANY aircraft.
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Keep it fast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks Jek, as a P51 kind guy when i flew the g10 the spiral climb defense was a real novelty for me. I dont know the when-to's and the when-not-too's about such a defense. Looks like i learned my lesson well.
I hindsight i cant believe i didnt just seperate off, i was having a blast engaging 3 cons to start off with down low and fighting them of while gaining altitude, got to 20k and got careless. My fault entirely. Just wanted some people to comment on the situation, it wasnt a moan about nikis.
But i dont think anyone actaully answered my question. Would a lo yoyo be effective at cutting off the corner and gaining enough speed to put your nose up again to take the shot? I thinks thats what he did, was hard to tell, and it seemed to work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thnks
[edit] oh looks like lepton answered my question - cheers.
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Would a lo yoyo be effective at cutting off the corner and gaining enough speed to put your nose up again to take the shot?
Yes. Absolutely Yes!
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Gatt, the C.205 has roughly the same wing-loading as the G-10, so you are right about it not being a low-wing loading bird.That said, the G-10 & C.205 both have loadings a couple of lb per sq. ft lower than the P-51D ;-).
As far as gliding for ever, if you think it was bad in the Veltro, try it regularly in the G-10. If you have run out of gas, or your engine is dead & you need to ditch *quickly* because bandits are bearing down, you can probably forget it.The G-10 seems to glide & glide for *ever*.
Even banking into a couple of 360 degree turns doesn't seem to bleed E fast enough.By the time you have bled off enough E to ditch, it is too late because the enemy is blasting you to smithereens.Often, if I am at low alt I just point the nose up to get as much alt as possible (even a dead G-10 seems to grab alt like a horny chimp chasing a female up a tree) & then puch out.
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I've found my self many times the 109's patented Spiral climb doesn't work too well as it did back in 1.03 no some planes after a sustained turn can zoom up or after a shallow dive gain a burst of closure to within d400 or d500 until they blast away for the long raging allied guns then stall and go back to earth happily with their kills as for the Hammer since 1.04 I cannot execute this maneuver . As to the 109 being a good climber yes it is a good climber but only on wep and at a speed of 150mph in AH . But in sustained zoom as soon as you go above C\l max it is almost impossible to perform a Hammerhead because the whole aircraft starts to wobble ,cough stall like a darned C47 IMO the slats for high AoA would make this perfect for being stable at such extreme angles.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
-----15 Spanische Staffel----
Tis not important how one goes,but who goes with you.