Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: daddog on July 26, 2009, 05:34:15 PM
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Gents,
I have removed one squad from FSO and suspended another. Both were due to attendance issues. I have also e-mailed several squads warning them of their attendance issues. If they continue with their attendance problems I will remove them as well.
I have stated before that low attendance is not such an issue. We have all experience a frame where very few squadies showed up. Having zero attendance or being well under is an entirely different issue and has a very adverse affect on the enjoyment of FSO to the attending squads. Squads that are a no-show twice over a period of several months will be removed. Squads that don’t show up because they were assigned a ride they did not like or want will be removed.
Being chronically over in your committed numbers is also a serious issue. C.O.’s can control that. They can’t control being short a few pilots for a frame now and again. Squads that are over in attendance will be reminded then suspended if they continue. If you have too many show up have them sit out, gun for you, observe with you, or gun for others.
If you do have too many show up please send an e-mail letting the Admin CM know or myself. Also post in the FSO forum as soon as possible that your extra pilots were gunners or observers.
Lastly squads that do not do the CiC orders due to real life issues will be assigned CiC duty next month. If it continues to be a problem they will be removed also. All squads are expected to fulfill their CiC responsibilities and not pass the buck to other squads.
To all the squads that are doing their part, and more, I thank you. :aok
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Gents,
I have removed one squad from FSO and suspended another. Both were due to attendance issues. I have also e-mailed several squads warning them of their attendance issues. If they continue with their attendance problems I will remove them as well.
I have stated before that low attendance is not such an issue. We have all experience a frame where very few squadies showed up. Having zero attendance or being well under is an entirely different issue and has a very adverse affect on the enjoyment of FSO to the attending squads. Squads that are a no-show twice over a period of several months will be removed. Squads that don’t show up because they were assigned a ride they did not like or want will be removed.
Being chronically over in your committed numbers is also a serious issue. C.O.’s can control that. They can’t control being short a few pilots for a frame now and again. Squads that are over in attendance will be reminded then suspended if they continue. If you have too many show up have them sit out, gun for you, observe with you, or gun for others.
If you do have too many show up please send an e-mail letting the Admin CM know or myself. Also post in the FSO forum as soon as possible that your extra pilots were gunners or observers.
Lastly squads that do not do the CiC orders due to real life issues will be assigned CiC duty next month. If it continues to be a problem they will be removed also. All squads are expected to fulfill their CiC responsibilities and not pass the buck to other squads.
To all the squads that are doing their part, and more, I thank you. :aok
Check your e-mail.....
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I don't know about anyone else, but I've been real busy and showing up for this last frame (3) was just by chance. I'm pretty sure the haphazard attendance from everyone else in the squad is also random, not intentional.
And now that I think about it, we only had more than ~2 present for frame 3 because a "walk-on" was kind enough to pull his squaddies from the other arenas to fly with us. IIRC we were only 3 from the regular squad that night, including me that wasn't supposed to be there.
edit- or 3 of us + me.
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Rgr moot. :salute
Unless you received an e-mail from me stating your squad was removed or suspended you have no worries. :) There were several squads I warned about attendance also, but if you have not heard from me don't worry. :)
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This situation is precisely why I reduced our commitment after our numbers dipped the last couple FSOs.
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This situation is precisely why I reduced our commitment after our numbers dipped the last couple FSOs.
Well our numbers have surged, with people coming home from overseas, and the hot weather keeping people indoors, And now my squad has been suspended for the Augest FSO, because of over participation. :mad:
Its not that we dropped the ball on orders, or didn't show up at all, or got on vox and started cussing folks out, or that we went and shot a bunch of friendlies down, or we didn't pay attention to the orders, or all upped for five lives.....its because we have too many people in our squad that want to fly the FSO. I guess I shouldn't let you guys know that we really like the FSO, a commet like that would probably get us kicked out for good.
And Daddog you said "Being chronically over in your committed numbers is also a serious issue." You would consider three frames out of all the ones my squad has flow as a "chronic" problem? We have been spot on in our numbers for well over a year's worth of FSO's.
See you guys in September :mad:
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Pretty bad deal if you ask me... Having logged off Friday night so we wouldn't go over our numbers.. I think it was a poor decision to suspend us..
See ya in September.. :furious
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HT,
I think the point of it is, over or under you set a commitment level so you need to manage your guys to stay within it. VMF-251 was actually over for Frame 1. Rather than make a guy sit out we made arrangements to loan him out to another squad. We came in within our commitment and he didn't have to sit in the tower.
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Saxman makes a valid point about coordinating with other squads. If squads going over/under commitment is getting to be an issue then maybe there should be a "classifieds" thread prior to each frame for squads that see they are going to be over to coordinate with those that are under commitment. It makes a lot of sense in that it could help even out the attendance peaks and valleys that each squad experiences. The players being "temporarily transferred" to the under squad do not necessarily have to fly with it if rides are the same or similar in role and performance. Just food for thought.
:salute
Dan
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The players being "temporarily transferred" to the under squad do not necessarily have to fly with it if rides are the same or similar in role and performance. Just food for thought.
Funny, that would seem no different. If you "temp" with a squad, you should fly with that squad. The whole purpose of commitment levels is so the CiC can plan a strategy based on how many each squad will bring. Just changing uniforms and still flying with your squad is just as wrong as staying in uniform and having your squad be over its commitment level.
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In the past the CM position is that your excess can fly with other squads that have not maxed out on your side. Basically because your pilots should already have the info on the other squads missions and that they already know the rules for the event. However, we actually mean flying with the other squad not wearing their colors and flying with their squad still.
So when it comes to squad overage you have a couple of options:
1) Have them gun for your or ride as observers. Sometimes a second pair of eyes really helps even in a fighter.
2) Gun bombers for others
3) Check around with other squads and see if anybody needs additional pilots. There is usually at least one squad on a side that has low numbers. But remember they have to change their uniform (handle) to actually be apart of that squad for the frame and they have to actually fly with that squad.
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I think it was a poor decision to suspend us..
I pay money per month to fly, and you have the right to suspend the squad i fly with.
Getting suspended for having a few too many people isn't what i pay for.
Mister dog you owe me $15.00.
I might just 'suspend' my account for August in protest :furious
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I think it was a poor decision to suspend us..
I pay money per month to fly, and you have the right to suspend the squad i fly with.
Getting suspended for having a few too many people isn't what i pay for.
Mister dog you owe me $15.00.
I might just 'suspend' my account for August in protest :furious
FSO is not a 'right' you gain with your subscription. It is subject to abiding by the rules as laid out and enforced by the governing body ( CM team ).
As far as I know, you are not personally suspended from FSO. If you find a squad that is accepting guests, you might be able to fly with them.
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What APdrone has said is true. If you have not personally received a notice that you have been suspended then it is just the squad. You can make arrangements to fly with another squad during the period of the suspension.
If you received a notice via email from Daddog that says ... players Alpha, Bravo, and Delta are suspended then those pilots are suspended and can not fly at all during the event.
In this case I believe it is a squad suspension so pilots of the squad can fly with other squads until the suspension expires if they wish.
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(http://www2.hitechcreations.com/images/welcome.gif)
And on the features page '•Participate in special events recreating scenarios from World War II.'
FSO is a Historical Scenario is it not... As advertised here on the welcome gif and features, making it part of the deal.
As much as i am thankful for the guys that volenteer to set this up for us, the system of suspending for going over on numbers is clearly wrong.. They need changing.
I don't want to fly with any other squads, i love the one i'm in, and i will show them absolute loyalty for allowing me the privalige to fly with them during the week and FSO's etc.
(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)
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(http://www2.hitechcreations.com/images/welcome.gif)
And on the features page '•Participate in special events recreating scenarios from World War II.'
FSO is a Historical Scenario is it not... As advertised here on the welcome gif and features, making it part of the deal.
As much as i am thankful for the guys that volenteer to set this up for us, the system of suspending for going over on numbers is clearly wrong.. They need changing.
I don't want to fly with any other squads, i love the one i'm in, and i will show them absolute loyalty for allowing me the privalige to fly with them during the week and FSO's etc.
(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)
As you stated Sir. FSO is one of the historical Events mentioned on the welcome gif. Every part of Aces High has a rule set though. If you go into the MAs making profane/racial remarks and are reported, you will be muted by the moderators. If you continue beyond that, I am sure HTC has other methods of dealing with it. I can not speak for them.
FSO in turn, has a set of rules. If those rules are not followed, then a squad or player may be suspended or permanently removed. Did you know that your squad was over on numbers? If so, why didn't you sit out, or go as only an observer/gunner. If you did not know, then the blame falls on your CO because he did know. It is the responsibility of every squad and participant of FSO to know the posted rules. Commitment levels are there for a reason. If every squad on a side goes 5 over and the other side follows the rules, then events can be ruined. Your squad has been suspended. I see no reason that would change.
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(http://www2.hitechcreations.com/images/welcome.gif)
And on the features page '•Participate in special events recreating scenarios from World War II.'
FSO is a Historical Scenario is it not... As advertised here on the welcome gif and features, making it part of the deal.
As much as i am thankful for the guys that volenteer to set this up for us, the system of suspending for going over on numbers is clearly wrong.. They need changing.
I don't want to fly with any other squads, i love the one i'm in, and i will show them absolute loyalty for allowing me the privalige to fly with them during the week and FSO's etc.
(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)
You're still allowed to participate, if you abide by the rules of belonging to, or being a guest of, a registered squad.
If you choose to not be a guest, then that is YOUR choice. Not something imposed on you by outside forces.
If you do not understand the importance of setting and enforcing minimums and maximums of pilots flying for a given squad, then you haven't had the privelege of organizing and directing an event where side assignments, target selections, historical statistics are factored to provide a balanced fight amongst 500 players.. only to have the hours of planning and effort dashed by having a couple no-show squads on one side and 1 or 2 over-allotment squads on the other. What was supposed to be a 50-50 slugfest turns into a 60-40 rout.
"Frustrating" doesn't even begin to come close.
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If you choose to not be a guest, then that is YOUR choice. Not something imposed on you by outside forces.
On the contrary it’s being imposed on me to guest and not fly with the guys I like flying with. Suspension of the squad I fly with was not my choice.
why didn't you sit out, or go as only an observer/gunner
Going 1 or 2 pilots over allocated didn’t seem much of a problem; after all it’s more targets for the other team. (least I see it that way)
If you do not understand the importance of setting and enforcing minimums and maximums of pilots flying for a given squad, then you haven't had the privelege of organizing and directing an event where side assignments, target selections, historical statistics are factored to provide a balanced fight amongst 500 players.. only to have the hours of planning and effort dashed by having a couple no-show squads on one side and 1 or 2 over-allotment squads on the other. What was supposed to be a 50-50 slugfest turns into a 60-40 rout
But you kinda take the fun out of the game, going all square and suspending a squad for 1 or 2 extras. After all it is a game, being historically accurate is an aim, but I don’t particularly care on inaccuracies. If I wanted that much realism I’d join the service. ~Even a 50-50 can turn into a rout.
"Frustrating" doesn't even begin to come close.
Frustrating is that I stay awake until 5am to enjoy all the FSO, and now I can't enjoy it, because 1 or 2 extra pilots wanted to enjoy the FSO experience with us.
Frustrating is that for I can’t enjoy August FSO because the pathetic rules have suspended the squad I enjoy flying with.
Frustrating is that the rule set (not set up by HTC) seem to me, totalitarian and are going to ruin my FSO experience and respect for those that give their time (CM team)… Well I give my time too, to participate in FSO, after all without pilots there is no FSO. This suspending for "too many" rule needs revising, there has to be a better solution than suspending squads, and making its pilot guest. Also guesting doesn’t guarantee me a spot on FSO.
It needs to be clearly stated on the features page and gif that the Historical Scenarios are not set by HTC, but by volunteers of the game. That way people like me won’t be deceived.
(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)
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The squad was suspended by the CMs and the reason was given. You don't think it's fair? Well what about the squads on the other side? Was it fair to them that your squad was over their maximum allowed numbers and they had to deal with more enemy than they would have otherwise because of it?
As has been said, there are NUMEROUS options for squads over in their numbers to take advantage of so they don't go over their commitment level. It's not like policing numbers is even anything NEW. My squad hasn't been involved with FSO as long as some of the others but I've seen plenty of reminders and warnings by the CM staff about commitment levels. Your squad violated the rules, they have to accept the consequences.
You don't like it? Then quit because I guarantee you no one here will be sad to see that sort of attitude go. Otherwise deal with it.
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(http://www2.hitechcreations.com/images/welcome.gif)
And on the features page '•Participate in special events recreating scenarios from World War II.'
FSO is a Historical Scenario is it not... As advertised here on the welcome gif and features, making it part of the deal.
As much as i am thankful for the guys that volenteer to set this up for us, the system of suspending for going over on numbers is clearly wrong.. They need changing.
I don't want to fly with any other squads, i love the one i'm in, and i will show them absolute loyalty for allowing me the privalige to fly with them during the week and FSO's etc.
(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)
Then you shouldn't be having such an issue with a show of solidarity by being loyal during the suspension.
The rules do not need changing. If it weren't for the rules, FSO would be a free-for-all just like the MA.
The CM's are appointed to their positions because they have put in their time over the years, and have followed the rules, as stated.
Without completely repeating what has been already stated, it really destroys the balance when guys don't show up, and when guys have too many show up.
If you have never CM'd an event or have never spoken to a CM about the responsibilities involved, than you do not have an inkling of the type of heartburn that this gives someone after they have put a few hours of their personal time into planning it. That is why squad CO's are asked for a commitment of numbers beforehand. Commitment implies that you are making a promise.
On the subject of the $14.95 I, also will play the selfish view................
The few times out of my busy schedule that I can devote to FSO are important to me, also. To have a chance to fly in an event with my squad without the normal MA drudgery is a fine time to be had. Like the CM's, there is planning involved for me, also. I make sure that my house is squared away, and the my 88 year old Grandfather, my wife, and my 2 kids are completely settled in so that there is nary a chance that I will be disturbed for the short 2 hours (if I don't die) at 11 PM on a Friday night. I take great pains to make sure I have fulfilled my role as Grandson, Caregiver, Husband, and Father so that I may turn off the lights, put on my headphones, tin-foil hat and Lederhosen. The fan is on, in my face and blowing my scarf around. The ashtray is empty and the pack of cigarettes is fresh. I have a full beer, one in the wings and the gatorade bottle is empty, ready to go. I have read the orders, and ask questions of my CO if I do not understand them.
In short, I am ready to spin wood at 2300 EST. I have prepared to ignore my family for a 2 full hours and try to immerse myself as much as humanly possible into playing airplane for the duration. I am that fanatical about doing so because, unless someone proves to me otherwise, this is about as close to WWII fighter combat/mission running, as I am going to get.
That's what my $14.95 gets me, so you are not the only one here, my friend..............
Now, change/add a few details to that story. On average there are 400 to 600 names you could substitute as the author and they will probably all sound similar, although there is probably going to be about 100 or so told with an accent, as I have not yet mentioned our non-American friends that wake up at 3, 4 or 5 AM local time to participate.
It seems to me that you are more than happy to piss on a lot of people's Cheerios because a few simple can't be followed.
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You chose to participate in FSO yet failed to make an effort to read and comprehend the rules. Your CO didn't make an effort to enforce those rules.
It is the sudden rash of lack of effort in FSO that has been the biggest turn off for me. That in no way is the responsibility of the CMs I pin that on the Squadron COs/Contact List. Whether you know it or not when you joined FSO you made a commitment, your squad made a commitment. With that commitment comes a level of responsibility, if your squad is not willing to live up to that then I say good riddance. I hardly believe the quality of FSO improves with more players. I am all for the suspensions where warranted. I'm sure Daddog doesn't enjoy having to suspend anyone, he's just doing his "job" Shame on you for putting him into that position.
Instead of just complaining and having a piss poor attitude why don't you spend the time off in a constructive manner and read up on the rules of FSO. Become familiar with what you committed to and ways to insure when the time comes to CiC you will be prepared.
Although I can understand your frustration at missing out on the best thing Aces High has to offer, you're not going to get any sympathy here. The blame does not fall one step outside your own squadron.
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Exactly how many pilots is LCA flying these days? ;)
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LCA commitment level was 16-21. You are allowed to go over by +2 and under by -2. Consistently going over by +2 or under by -2 is not supposed to be the norm and basically if you do a squad is supposed to re-evaluate its commitment level for the next event.
LCA FR1 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR2 = 24 (over by +1 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR3 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)
The 1 month suspension in this case happened because of LCA going over their max numbers in all 3 frames. As you see it was not a case of 1 or 2 over. I believe there was also conversation between Daddog and the squad CO on this issue but I was not privileged to that and could be in error.
As stated this is not the MA or actually another Special Event. The rules on min and max have been in place for years. Command Staffs are supposed to keep an eye on things and make adjustments. FSO hinges on squad Command staffs helping to enforce the rules of the event. To make sure their players fly the planes assigned (instead of possibly taking a different ride they prefer than what a CiC assigned them), making sure that their pilots don't up for a second life unless the rules allow them, making sure they make their commitment numbers and not going under or below, and a whole host of others things.
The Command Staff of squads are the first gate keepers of this event. Many times the admin CM can only spot things after the event has happened and issues warnings or take more severe action afterwards. CMs do judge on a case by case basis. However, there are times there are clear violations and squads do incur a sanction.
In addition to say .. "so we went over what is the big deal" is incorrect. Lets say every squad now goes over by 4 (because a precedent has been set). There were 23 squads on the Axis side during this FSO I believe. So that is a possible additional 92 pilots. Lets say just 1/3rd, 7 squads go over, that is an additional 28 pilots. Both numbers are more than enough to affect the outcome of the event. Heck lets even say a squad went over by an additional +4 and lets say they were bombers or JABOs and lets say it resulted in a CV being sunk that would not have been otherwise. I think you start to get an idea of the tangled issues that can result. It doesn't matter if it didn't or not. It matters that a rule was drawn and crossed three times and that the breaking of that rule can affect an event in negative ways.
Remember we already give you a cushion of +2 to cover the unforeseen so that you can add on +2 over your max. In this case you went +6, +3, and +6 over 21. The +2 reduces it to +4, +1, +4 .. we have to draw the limit somewhere otherwise it starts to become a free for all where people start to say we can fudge this rule and then maybe that rule to. That is actually the hardest part of being a CM doing a constant analysis to see if rules were abided by or not.
Since this is a structured event limits must be placed. Unfortunately this affected your squad. But as stated the event does hinge on squads taking responsibility and policing their own in quite a few circumstances.
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Thanks
Question was for another reason
:salute
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Thanks
Question was for another reason
:salute
You're such a dirty hooker HB! :D
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With all that said the LCA pilots have 2 choices at the moment.
1) Sit out the August FSO (1 month suspension)
2) Contact other squads about flying as guests with them and in their colors in the August FSO
LCA then can fly again in their own colors and as a squad in September.
As for August I am sure quite a few squads would welcome yours to fly with them for this month.
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The muppets are waiting on an apology from daddog for accusing us of skipping out on fr 2 because we didnt like the ride. After hearing the explanation, he still insisted that we skipped because of the ride.... I do not like being falsly accused, noone does, and I have the proof to show that the ride had nothing to do why we were 3 pilots off that night.
I do not want to start a big stink about it, but he has ignored my e-mails....and I don't want to be associated with someone who treats us in that manner....yet I enjoy the event as well as other Muppets..... I also contacted Brooke, and was told that me and daddog would have to work it out. How can I work it out, if he ignores me and refuses to back off his false allegations? I would have rather this be settled behind close doors, but with a direct attack on my squad, and subsequent refusal by daddog to admit he made a mistake, it seems this is not the way this event should be handled. We fly FSO because we like the historical part of the game...including flying what we are told to fly, and making the mission top priority, not because we get to fly our fav fun rides....and we will not tolerate being falsly accused of anything to the contrary.
I told daddog that our FSO leader's comp crashed and he was not able to get online to tell us he wasnt going to make it, plus he usually gets everyone together, and that I had promised my children to take them to see "Ice Age" that night, neither of which had anything to do with what ride we were assigned. I am posting a pic of our forum the monday following fr 2.
Just had to get this off my chest, the ball is in his court, maybe he will man up. It can't be that hard to apologize when you are wrong.
SkyRock
CO/ Army of Muppets
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/Skyrock67/agentfso.jpg)
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LCA commitment level was 16-21. You are allowed to go over by +2 and under by -2. Consistently going over by +2 or under by -2 is not supposed to be the norm and basically if you do a squad is supposed to re-evaluate its commitment level for the next event.
LCA FR1 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR2 = 24 (over by +1 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR3 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)
The 1 month suspension in this case happened because of LCA going over their max numbers in all 3 frames.
These rules/penalties are an absolute joke. They don't provide enough wiggle room that a Friday night event should provide. Last time I checked, Friday was a good RL type night also. It's generally a crapshoot on who will show up. Sure, you've got a few regulars that will probably be locked in 90% of the time but then you have a bunch of guys who will be 50/50 on any given Friday. Instead of suspending, why not just increase their commitment level or at least attempt to compromise a more suitable level for the August event. I guess the power trip isn't as fun when you try to compromise a solution though. Iron Clad Fist Ftw! :rolleyes:
I've flown FSO where we had over a 100 less pilots than the other side but still had a blast. It's not a big deal, sometimes war isn't fair. You could always add some adjustment factor to the points system to accommodate for the number differences because no matter what you do and how unfairly you punish squads... numbers will always be off.
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It is a commitment level that has to last 3 weeks, with a little fore thought it can be quite accurate especially with the +/- 2 be adequate wiggle room. Commit to a level you are certain you will reach each week, the squaddies that are uncertain due to real-life considerations should be understanding of only be allowed to participate( with you squadron) on a first come first served basis till you max commitment level is reached.
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It doesn't even need to be first-come, first-served. With my squad I poll for volunteers to fly with another group, gun a bomber, or sit out. There's always SOMEONE willing to step up, often times more than one, and I've never had to put my foot down as C/O to keep us under our max.
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It is a commitment level that has to last 3 weeks, with a little fore thought it can be quite accurate especially with the +/- 2 be adequate wiggle room. Commit to a level you are certain you will reach each week, the squaddies that are uncertain due to real-life considerations should be understanding of only be allowed to participate( with you squadron) on a first come first served basis till you max commitment level is reached.
How can any CO be certain of who will be there EVERY friday for the entire month? Perhaps CO's should send binding contracts to their squaddies to sign before each FSO event to ensure the ranges will be met.
Obviously there are rules in place for a reason, but there should be a little more effort put forth to communicate and work with squads instead of just suspending squads for being over committed to the event. Oh the irony, suspended because four too many guys showed up and wanted to fly with their friends. :lol
If I didn't know any better, I'd think there was a cash prize on the line for the winner of FSO based off this nonsense.
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First rules are set. You are given wiggle room on the commitment levels. A 16-21 squad has a range of 14-23 pilots attending. That allows the squad to swing by 9 pilots in attendance. A range must be set so that both the designing CM and the CiC knows the numbers (range) that he is to work with. After each FSO, usually, the admin CM goes over the logs and looks for min and max violations and then fires out a note or requests that the FSO team lead fire out a note to the squad(s) that go under or over.
I personally prefer that this is done for each frame (which of course increases the work load) but some tend to do after the FSO is complete. Again if you look at real life laws. If you speed and get caught the defense of well I always speed, or it doesn't really matter, or whatever is not a valid defense.
In the case of the LCA they went over by a significant margin 3 times.
In the case you sighted of a side being under by 100, does it affect the fun factor? That depends. It might not .. but it definitely affects the capability of that side to accomplish its goals. We do what we can to minimize that but sometimes it happens where multiple squads on one side have very low but legal turnouts while the other side has very high and legal turnouts. It is why I personally send out reminders in my objectives that a good turnout is key.
It is also why in several pass FSOs where it turns out to be a consistent problem that squads have been switched from one side to another to attempt to get a more even balance of forces. The system is not perfect because there are two many factors that can't be controlled exactly. A squad turnout depends on that squad. A side turnout depends on 20+ squads, etc. This is why I say the system is decentralized and hinges on the command staff of each squad.
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To use a real life example take a look at sports. you must field a certain amount of players. If you don't you forfeit the match. Each squad is given a range to fulfill not an exact number. If you can't maintain your numbers in that range then their are consequences. However, as stated if a squad is under the CMs understand that and usually issue a warning and suggest that a squad might consider changing their commitment level for the next FSO since as stated you can't magically produce people to participate in a frame if they don't show up. You do however, have a week to try to resolve the problem or if your squad just can't (people are not interested in participating) then to inform the CMs of that so they can make adjustments and warn the CiC that a squad that say has a 7-10 commitment is actually a 4-6 and should be assigned roles based on that more accurate range. Also a CM might have to now switch a squad to another side to try to balance the numbers more.
The command staff of a squad though can absolutely control going over their max. I have flow for a long time in this even .. since 2001 I think and have seen many squads go .. we have are over by 2 is there any squad willing to take our 2 extras.
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These rules/penalties are an absolute joke.
So you would rather have anarchy? Oh wait, we do have that. LW
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I have no problem with the rules, I do however, have a problem with being falsly accused, and expect an apology from the involved.
:salute
SkyRock
CO/ Army of Muppets
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In regards to the AoM's numbers and Daddog and SkyRock's correspondence.
A warning was issued about your frame 2 numbers ... FR1 attendance of 7, FR2 attendance of 2, FR3 attendance 9. Also in the previous FSO a similar issue occurred with a FR1 attendance of 2, FR2 attendance of 8, and FR3 attendance of 18.
Both low number frames warranted a warning. From what you have posted Daddog issued a warning and wondered if the results of your FR2 low attendance was do the fact of being assigned Vals. You definitely have the right to dispute that and bring it up with both Skuzzy and Brooke as I believe was indicated in email correspondence.
However, separate, from that fact is that you had a low attendance in FR2 Marianas (under by 3 .. commitment level 7-10 so low of 5). In Husky your commitment level was 11-15 so min of 9 and in frame 1 you were under by 7. Your squad rectified that by dropping it's commitment level for Marianas.
So as you state there are two issues:
1) A warning about low attendance (which I believe is warranted)
2) A discussion about whether the low attendance was do to being assigned Vals.
On issue 2 I would say this is between the command staff of AoM, Daddog, Brooke and possibly skuzzy.
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In addition your situation and other similiar ones recently is why the CMs increased the requirement for all squads to have 3 contact people / 3 members in their command staff.
Each squad should have 3 members that receive orders now from CiCs (or objectives if they are the selected CiC) so that if one person's computer goes down you have a 2nd person to rally the squad, tell them the objectives, and lead them in battle. Now if the 2nd person also has an issue each squad should now have a 3rd person to rally the squad, tell them the objectives, and lead them in battle.
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In response to Glens post, the rules are the rules for a reason. If you don't like em, deal with it or leave. I don't mean to sound mean, but I support the staff on this because they are the ones setting this up for ALL of us to enjoy. It takes a lot of time out of their lives to do it. :salute That means they have to walk the walk when they talk the talk. If your CO knows what your numbers are supposed to be then he/she should be able to have someone sit or look for a ride. At least there are options. If we have room next week we will be happy to take on some of your squad. Suck it up!
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To use a real life example take a look at sports. you must field a certain amount of players. If you don't you forfeit the match. Each squad is given a range to fulfill not an exact number. If you can't maintain your numbers in that range then their are consequences. However, as stated if a squad is under the CMs understand that and usually issue a warning and suggest that a squad might consider changing their commitment level for the next FSO since as stated you can't magically produce people to participate in a frame if they don't show up. You do however, have a week to try to resolve the problem or if your squad just can't (people are not interested in participating) then to inform the CMs of that so they can make adjustments and warn the CiC that a squad that say has a 7-10 commitment is actually a 4-6 and should be assigned roles based on that more accurate range. Also a CM might have to now switch a squad to another side to try to balance the numbers more.
I find it hard to compare a real life commitment to a sport and FSO commitment hehe. But like you said, the numbers are always off even when every squad is within their tolerable ranges. I just feel like suspension should be the absolutely last resort and only when a squad displays habitual, negligent abuse of the rules. I would hardly call +4,+1,+4 in simply ONE frame habitual and negligent abuse.
And
In the case of the LCA they went over by a significant margin 3 times.
I would hardly call that a 'significant' margin in terms of their high commitment levels of 16-21 as is.
The command staff of a squad though can absolutely control going over their max. I have flow for a long time in this even .. since 2001 I think and have seen many squads go .. we have are over by 2 is there any squad willing to take our 2 extras.
So say you have a couple guys that rarely ever fly, log on for FSO. Everyone is excited and you told the two guys "Hey nice to see you fellas but you can't fly with us because we'll be +2 and the integrity of FSO will be compromised"?
Soap box over. :)
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We have no problem with being issued a warning, at all.....we even expect it if we do not meet the requirements, but we do not expect to be falsly accused....
In frame 2, the Muppets FSO leadership dropped the ball due to some RL problems....that is our fault... we deserve a warning....we did not deserve to be accused of intentionally skipping out on the frame because we didn't like the ride....that is out of line and we simply will not take lightly, being treated that way.
<S>
SkyRock
CO / Army of Muppets
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...
So say you have a couple guys that rarely ever fly, log on for FSO. Everyone is excited and you told the two guys "Hey nice to see you fellas but you can't fly with us because we'll be +2 and the integrity of FSO will be compromised"?
...
Consider it the snowflake effect. A single snowflake is harmless.
A bunch of snowflakes makes an avalanche.
So, suppose you let your 2 extra buddies fly. What about the other squad who does follow the rules and 2 of their guys ( that are over their max ) change squads to abide by the rules and end up in something they'd rather not be flying? Or what about the other extras that logged off because all the squads were maxed and there were no places to put them.
Point is, you HAVE to draw the line somewhere and stick to it. It has worked very well for years and will continue to do so.
If you have a problem with having too many, do what we do. First come get the slots. Then bump up your commitment next series.
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Skyrock agreed on the warning and agreed on your bring up the issue of it resulting from ride assignment. I was not actually involved in this situation so I really can't say more.
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Easy fix for staying within commitment levels...
Post squad mission to allow max numbers allowed for your commitment. Once it fills up, tell anyone else they have to gun/observe or temp with another squad.
Oh, and grow up a little.
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Grizz a range was set with a buffer. You had a buffer of +2. You still went over it 3 times in a row. Frame 2 was not by much. But yes, I would say frame 1 and 3 were significant considering it was 4 pilots which is basically the size of the smallest squad commitment level in FSO (4-6).
Command staff can control or make sure they don't go over there max. They can contact other squads for their overage to fly with them.
In the case of football what happens when there is 12 players on the field instead of 11?
As for your case of turning away two pilots who have not flown FSO, yes that has happened in the squad I fly with. We do first come first serve with our CO keeping track of our numbers. Even then at times we have gone over because one person got knocked off somewhere in the T+15 window and another players comes in at say T+5 and then the knocked off player comes back and the CO has lost track of the numbers. We have gotten warnings in the past when that happens and have accepted them and our command staff strives to make sure it doesn't happen again (I remember several cases where a pilot was told no or that after discovering that he launched was instructed to land immediately and then later an explanatory email was sent to the CMs).
But we have also turned pilots away or asked other squads to take them. Or more often than not we have veteran consistent pilots volunteer to step down and not fly so the newbies can or have the veterans even volunteer to go to other squads so the newbies can fly. There are still several options that you can do to handle an overage. If next times +6 show up that have never flow is it then okay that you have 29 pilots flying instead of 23? Or lets say 7 or 8 or 9? You need to draw a line .. we drew it at +2. If plus +3 or +6 over your max range was okay then it would be in the rules. +2 was decided on and has been used for years. Also if you consistently push that number over 3 frames then you just up your commitment level for the next FSO.
For a 16-21 squad you have a possible variance of 14 - 23 .. 9 pilots. If we went with say +6 and -6 is okay then for a 16-21 squad has a possible variance of 10-27, 17 pilots.
As I said the same hold trues in sports .. football only 11 players on the field. If you are driving the car the speed limit is the speed limit. If you speed and get caught you were speeding. Doesn't matter if you were going over the speed limit by say 2 miles or 10 miles. And a one frame overage gets a warning. You have a case here of a 3 frame overage.
LCA is a valued and respected squad from the point of the community and the CMs. But you had a 3 frame overage and the squad is not new to the game and your command staff should know about the +2 rule (23 max pilots for your squad). One time losing track is one thing but three frames in a row is another. If your pulled over three times within 3 weeks for speeding by the police do you really expect to only get three warnings? Or expect them to go sure no problem you were only over the speed limit by 5 miles 3 times in 3 weeks.
For whatever reason you were over when the command staff for every squad has the capability of dealing with overage. I do hope your command staff did not make an active decision to ignore the +2 rule in the three frames as your argument would seem to suggest (ie that we had new guys that never show up so we decided it was fine to ignore the +2 max rule in each 3 frames) and that it was more of an inadvertent over site. Which would be why it was just a 1 month suspension. If the CMs thought a squad consciously decided to ignore a rule the penalty has been much harsher in the past (usually 3 months).
For instance a small squad in the last FSO had 2 or 3 pilots (they were a 4-6) squad up repeatedly when the fields were open to allow GV players a s second life. They didn't end up shooting any enemy down when they up repeatedly but it is still a violation and can't be justified by saying .. well they did not shoot anybody down. Their side was penalized for their actions (point penalty) and the squad who had participated for a while was suspend for a multi month violation.
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Skyrock agreed on the warning and agreed on your bring up the issue of it resulting from ride assignment. I was not actually involved in this situation so I really can't say more.
I understand, thank you very much for responding.
<S>
SkyRock
CO / Army of Muppets
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I joined Aces High for something to do ,,I joined my squad becuse they were a group that liked to fly together .
I knew nothing about the FSO when I joined with them and I quickly found it to be a real great time .
With this said , I beleive the rules are fair because I dont want another ma or furball arena
Most of the people I fly against are great pilots and rarely ho or vulch. It is a great time! If a squad does not follow the rules ,it is not good for everyone else who does.
We follow the rules just like everbody should whether we like them ort not that isi not the point. They are the rules plain and simple If you dont like the rules,then I sugest you talk it over nicely instead of getting mad on the bbs.Rules are not set in stone in anytghing and can be changed if you just act like a human and discuss your points ( make sure youi have valid points) enough said im going back to work !!
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The rules are fair, but my point is and was that the rules shouldn't be enforced so stringently when FSO is already admittedly extremely volatile when it comes to numbers disparities from week to week. The fact that you are comparing the FSO rules to the laws of the USA shows that you are taking the rules/punishments a little too seriously tbh. You guys do well and make it a fun experience and I appreciate that. I just hope that you work with squads a little more patiently to try to correct issues before just suspending them. :salute
And P.S., I'm not in LCA, I was merely sticking up for them because a suspension doesn't seem right.
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The rules are fair, but my point is and was that the rules shouldn't be enforced so stringently when FSO is already admittedly extremely volatile when it comes to numbers disparities from week to week.
While I get what you're saying, I also fully understand what the staff guys are saying about the effects of over/under squads.
If this latest action is an attempt by the staff to get FSO back on track by enforcing the rules, then I fully support it.
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Usually CMs do work with squads and issue a warning at the end of each frame to squads over or under. I can't comment if that was the case in this situation because I was not the admin CM. I can say that during Husky and other FSOs that I was the admin CM that warnings were issued after each specific frame to squads that were over or under to give them time to try to address the issue.
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Usually CMs do work with squads and issue a warning at the end of each frame to squads over or under. I can't comment if that was the case in this situation because I was not the admin CM. I can say that during Husky and other FSOs that I was the admin CM that warnings were issued after each specific frame to squads that were over or under to give them time to try to address the issue.
Rgr ghostdancer, you seem to have the right attitude then as a CM to ensure FSO is fun and fair for all. :salute
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Good posts Ghostdancer <S>
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Btw, I want to say that it is the standard procedure for CMs to contact squads after each frame in regards to any issue. This is just not my practice but all CMs.
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Being one of the squads that this post is about I want to say this...
My squad enjoys the FSO. I enjoy the FSO. As the LCA's CO, our numbers in the first frame were my fault. The second frame was a late entry and a bad count...still my fault. The third frame was a misunderstanding because of a email I received. Still my fault.
My squad will, was, and is going to serve our suspension. I appreciate the advice of looking for another squad to fly with, but my squaddies and I will not do that.
Myself and my squaddies are done posting about it, you will not hear anymore on this issue from us, and I hope this thread falls to the bottom of the list quick.
I would like to apologize to the CM's of the event for the trouble it has caused, and to let you know we are not just trying to stir the pot.
Good luck to the Squads and Pilots in the August FSO............
And rest up when you can because the LCA will be back in September :salute
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Being the one of the squads that this post is about I want to say this...
My squad enjoys the FSO. I enjoy the FSO. As the LCA's CO, our numbers in the first frame were my fault. The second frame was a late entry and a bad count...still my fault. The third frame was a misunderstanding because of a email I received. Still my fault.
My squad will, was, and is going to serve our suspension. I appreciate the advice of looking for another squad to fly with, but my squaddies and I will not do that.
Myself and my squaddies are done posting about it, you will not hear anymore on this issue from us, and I hope this thread falls to the bottom of the list quick.
I would like to apologize to the CM's of the event for the trouble it has caused, and to let you know we are not just trying to stir the pot.
Good luck to the Squads and Pilots in the August FSO............
And rest up when you can because the LCA will be back in September :salute
:salute
I applaud your attitude. Look forward to LCA's return.
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Just had to get this off my chest, the ball is in his court, maybe he will man up. It can't be that hard to apologize when you are wrong.
Skyrock this thread has nothing to do with your squad.
I have not replied to your e-mails because after the first volley of rude, threatening responses your e-mails automatically go in the trash. The same will happen with your PM’s if they get out of hand.
I have made myself quite clear to you several times, but you just don’t get it.
Army of Muppets
Assigned Zekes Frame 1 (7 pilots attend)
Assigned Val’s Frame 2 (2 pilots attend)
Assigned Zekes Frame 3 (9 pilots attend)
I send a polite but firm warning to your squad about attending no matter what aircraft your assigned and you go ballistic. I don’t care if you agree with me or not. Considering the last 3 frames my wording was entirely reasonable.
As for the LCA, after exchanging several polite and respectful e-mails and PM’s it is settled. They and Hightone have shown what a class act they are.
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I send a polite but firm warning to your squad about attending no matter what aircraft your assigned and you go ballistic. I don’t care if you agree with me or not. Considering the last 3 frames my wording was entirely reasonable.
That's what we like to call an 'implied accusation', something I'd hardly call polite. Quite the contrary as a matter of fact, very rude. Go to page 2 of this thread and take a view at the screenshot posted. It explains the reason there weren't any pilots at the FSO. It had nothing to do with aircraft. Apology?
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Grizz -- you appear to be in this thread just provoking people. Please knock it off. Neither incident appear to involve yourself, but you've got the most posts in this thread. Time for you to stop posting in this thread unless you are part of the LCA (which you said you were not) or you were directly sent a message from a CM indicating your were suspended.
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As for the LCA, after exchanging several polite and respectful e-mails and PM’s it is settled. They and Hightone have shown what a class act they are.
Thank you daddog. :salute
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Lock it .... nuff said
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Quote from: daddog on Yesterday at 09:45:14 PM
As for the LCA, after exchanging several polite and respectful e-mails and PM’s it is settled. They and Hightone have shown what a class act they are.
Thank you daddog.
My personal venting over. At least it was reviewed. :salute CM's + LCA
Time to spend Augusts $15s on some corona :P
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See Rule #4
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I'd like to see this thread wind down. The reality is simple. We have an event cherished by many and graciously organised and run by a few for our mutual enjoyment. As with any large scale event certain expectations have to be defined and monitored. Those who police the event have to act in an impartial and even handed manner to maintian the events overall integrity.
That is why all squads have to be treated in an impartial manner regardless or size, history or participation. My point is not to debate the merits of any specific action taken but to focus on the intent....to maintain, preserve and nurture the integrity of the event itself. We need to look no further then other special events here in AH to see the potential issues when this focus is lost.
While various factions and individuals might take issue with any specific action I hope all recognize that the intent behind any action is for the overall health and growth of the event itself. Regardless of any feelings toward a specific action I hope no one loses sight of the "big picture" here.
I'm sure that the CM staff constantly monitors itself with the goal of improving it's stewardship of all events. By all means voice your opinions and vent your spleen, but at the end of the day respect the event and those who do there best to run it for our mutual benefit.
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:salute CM's for maintaining a level of expectation and responsibility from the CO's, doing so will inevitably create a better scenario for what it was designed and intended.
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That's what we like to call an 'implied accusation', something I'd hardly call polite. Quite the contrary as a matter of fact, very rude. Go to page 2 of this thread and take a view at the screenshot posted. It explains the reason there weren't any pilots at the FSO. It had nothing to do with aircraft. Apology?
LOL where did the muppets go to school? The screenie shows two excuses, last time I checked 7-2 did not equal 2, nor did 9-2=2.
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LOL where did the muppets go to school? The screenie shows two excuses, last time I checked 7-2 did not equal 2, nor did 9-2=2.
Our FSO leader, Agent360, is usually the one that "rounds" people up to be sure they make it, some in the squad that fly FSO do not check if we even have FSO for any given weekend until they get their updates on thursday or Friday. He is a crucial part of our meeting FSO obligations. Thanks for your objectiveness and keen insight. :aok
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Our FSO leader, Agent360, is usually the one that "rounds" people up to be sure they make it, some in the squad that fly FSO do not check if we even have FSO for any given weekend until they get their updates on thursday or Friday. He is a crucial part of our meeting FSO obligations. Thanks for your objectiveness and keen insight. :aok
So when he drops the ball because of RL situations, its okay for your squad not to fulfill your FSO commitments? :huh
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So when he drops the ball because of RL situations, its okay for your squad not to fulfill your FSO commitments? :huh
Please tell me where you read that? You didn't read it from anything the Muppets posted. When/if he drops the ball, and our backup drops the ball, and we fail to meet our commitment, we get warned like everyone else. Please, if you want to anklehump...just jump on, no need to post drivel you can't back up to boot. :aok
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Please tell me where you read that? You didn't read it from anything the Muppets posted. When/if he drops the ball, and our backup drops the ball, and we fail to meet our commitment, we get warned like everyone else. Please, if you want to anklehump...just jump on, no need to post drivel you can't back up to boot. :aok
You cant read any of your post cause they keep gettin skuzzyfied. :rofl
Last time I had to fill your CIC dutys because you guys had RL issues.
Come on Skyrock is that all you got?
Might as well get this thread locked, cause your immature feelings are hurt.
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You cant read any of your post cause they keep gettin skuzzyfied. :rofl
Last time I had to fill your CIC dutys because you guys had RL issues.
Come on Skyrock is that all you got?
Might as well get this thread locked, cause your immature feelings are hurt.
:rofl calm down, wait your turn...an ankle will open up soon enough.... :aok ..... but first, use some comprehension and reading skills, and you might see, that I accept any punishment for not fulfilling our commitment, that the CM team deems necessary....now, where does your argument go from there? :rofl bbs newbs.... :rofl
:aok
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where is your apology to your team because you didnt fulfill your duty? :aok
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where is your apology to your team because you didnt fulfill your duty? :aok
are you that interested? :rofl
why not just ask one of them? :aok
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Dont need an apology from Rock, I showed up friday and had fun flying whatever the heck we were in.
No pointing fingers, you might lose 1.
TT
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So when he drops the ball because of RL situations, its okay for your squad not to fulfill your FSO commitments? :huh
Please tell me where you read that? You didn't read it from anything the Muppets posted.
Our FSO leader, Agent360, is usually the one that "rounds" people up to be sure they make it, some in the squad that fly FSO do not check if we even have FSO for any given weekend until they get their updates on thursday or Friday.
So, guys that are interested in flying FSO can't be bothered to check if there's an FSO on the upcoming Friday? Wow, there's some real interest and responsibility being shown there. :lol
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So, guys that are interested in flying FSO can't be bothered to check if there's an FSO on the upcoming Friday?
Imadolt, thank you for your interest.....albeit very presumptous of you.......please join in on the right ankle please, left is a lil raw...... :aok
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So, children that are interested in flying FSO can't be bothered to check if there's an FSO on the upcoming Friday? Wow, there's some real interest and responsibility being shown there. :lol
I fixed what you said imadot, and it all makes sense now :D
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Sry guys, the Muppets don't have any squad openings right now, try again in a few months. :aok
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albeit very presumptous of you
You must have some issues, CryRock. I even used an exact quote from your own post to point out you can't even remember what you typed 20 minutes earlier.
Oops, I made fun of your name...guess you're a bad influence.
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Can we keep this stuff out of the FSO forum please. Let the CMs handle it.
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Hope to see all of you in the jeep race tonight so everything is equal and no limits on people are needed. Vent your frustrations there .
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I even used an exact quote from your own post to point out you can't even remember what you typed 20 minutes earlier.
Itidot, your quote of me had no relevance to your argument...because you picked the quote to suit your view, does not mean the quote supported your argument. Here, let me give you a little lesson in comprehension.....get out your pencil, we will be taking notes.....
Here's the entire sentence...that you cherrypicked.....
" some in the squad that fly FSO do not check if we even have FSO for any given weekend until they get their updates on thursday or Friday."
Now, those darker words are there to indicate importance or value to my point....
So, if RL has forced some of our squadmembers to put off commiting until thursday or friday, then that is fine with us...because we respect that about each of our squad members....the right to have a life! :aok
When your done, there are napkins on the way out, and could you please use some lotion where you were, that ankle is a little chaffed from your excitement. :aok
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Can we keep this stuff out of the FSO forum please. Let the CMs handle it.
Im done with my original beef.....just feeding the monkeys atm....they're so funny!
:D
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Man...some peoples kids!
give it a rest. :huh