Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: StSanta on August 29, 2001, 07:34:00 AM
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for jabo runs?
Sure the F8 is nice with its 4 50kg eggs, but ya get more bang for ya buck and survivability by taking a 30mm or 20mm equipped A8.
did it have another bigger loadout that was used at least to some extent?
The 410? Any good bombload/rocket load? With the exception of the R4M's, the LW really dinnae have any rockets - but they did have an abundance of other ordnance.
What other bird, or what other loadouts for existing birds, can the LW look forward to?
I get sorta green with envy when I see a P-47 chug along 3 eggs that each can kill an ostie with a near miss - plus rockets. P-38 carries almost as much, and the 51 has a good load. Tiffie as well.
LW and the Japanese boys sort of miss a jabo that can take a decent load. Am wondering what that ride can be, if any?
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Probably not a whole lot Santa, at least in regards to AH.
You might try to get Pyro to add some more of the armament options to the 190 G or F, (see Funked's many postings on that) otherwise your best bet is probably the Me410 or the Hs129.
Neither is going to do very well in the AH main arena (or as good a job as the American Jabo's), but the 410 is definitely the more interesting of the two.
It could carry up to 2,000lbs of bombs, and could carry a multitude of cannon options from the MG151/20, Mk108, Mk103, up to the big BK50, depending on how it was configured for a schnell bomber mission or a zeroester mission
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Ki 102 for the Japanese, the 57mm gun option speaks for it's self and the Ho-5's it caries were one of the best 20mm's of the war, it only caries 2 500pound bombs if memory servies, but the big cannon would help to offset this i think, fast and manuaverable, it would be fun.
The Grace would be another nice ride for the Japanese it caried 800 killos of ordance a torpedo or bombs, 2 20mm type 99 II canons and a 13mm mg in the rear good spead to ,carier capable.
The 210mm rockets the german jabos caried are now timed fuzed and do not explode on impact(right?), If this is so why not? they were used as point impact weapons to so why cant they blow up on impact?
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If you want a Luftwaffe uber-Jabo you've got to look at the Messerschmitt twins (110, 210, 410, 262). They also had some nice dedicated attack planes (Hs 129, Ju 87) and close support versions of several twin-engine bombers.
But the Germans did not historically have a single-engine Jabo which could match the much larger (and thus more able to carry a big load without prohibitive performance penalty) single engined fighters like the P-47, Typhoon, Corsair, etc.
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I would say that based on the pictures and data I found here (http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Me-410%20Fighter/) an ME410 would be a good choice, I don't know if the data is correct or what the source actually was but in the first .jpg it states a top speed of 625kph/388mph and up to 2000Kg/4400lbs of bombs. With that speed I would think it would be very survivable in the MA.
Looking through it all again....probably a perk if all the data is correct. *shrugs* I dunno
[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: AcId ]
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Stsanta you're getting your Me262 so QUIT YER squeakIN!! :)
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"What other bird....can the LW look forward to?"[/img]
I sent HiTech a bottle of the finest to bribe him for what I think you should get next ;)
(http://www.home.ch/~spaw2879/aircrafts/photos/BACHEM.jpg)
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The Fw 190F-8 should get the ER-4 adaptor to allow it to carry 4x50kg on the centreline rack, plus the wing bombs = 8x50kg bombs total - which should be useful, yes?
The Me 109 series should have the ER-4 adaptor available too.
It should really also be able to carry a 250kg bomb or 300l DT on each wing, since the Fw 190F-8 replaced the Fw 190G as the long range jabo in 1944 anyway. This would allow it to carry a total bombload of 1000kg - equal to the 2x1000lb bombs that the American fighters can carry.
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Im still missing those two 1000kg bombs from Ju88 :(
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Westy - what the heck is that thing??? :)
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I'd like to see the Hs129 very much. Obviously there's always the different variants of the Stuka Ju87 too.
On another note, what difference is the Fw190-F9 to the F8? I rather like the F8 and for one tour used it successfully as an alternative to the Typhoon.
Regards
Nexx
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The F9 and A9 differ from the A8 and F8 in having a much more powerful 2200HP BMW801TS engine, a new 14 blade cooling fan instead of the old 12 blade fan and a new much wider paddle blade propeller similar to that on the 190Ds and Ta152s. This was faster and climbed better. Plus the A9 got the blown hood as standard. A number of these were in use during 1945.
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Lynx, it's a "Bachem Ba349 Natter".
Rocket engine wich gave 3.748lbs thrust + 4x2.640lbs help rocket.
it had 24 air to air rockets in the nose made to take out bombers.
Max speed 497Mph at sea level. Initial climb rate was 36.000 feet per minute, cealin 45k and a max service distance of about 24miles at 39k.
Never saw action.
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Lynx, if you look out for the October edition of 'Aeroplane' magazine it features a very detailed, and interesting, piece on the Ba349 Natter (Adder). Check it out!
TY Grunherz. I take it that the F9 had a better climb rate than the F8 too? The F9 also has 2 x MG151 and 2 x MG131 and the same payload as the F8. Not sure if this would actually be any better than the F8 we have?
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/190F9.jpg)
Regards
Nexx
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Hi Fishu,
>Im still missing those two 1000kg bombs from Ju88
In the Ju 88A-1 and A-5, the port inboard bomb rack could take a single 1800 kg bomb, too.
In the Ju 88A-4, both inboard bomb racks were capable of carrying a 1800 kg bomb each.
(This is documented in the "Baade Report" on the Junkers company in WW2 which was prepared by the East Germans for the Soviets in 1946.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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AFAIK no flight test data exists for F-9 or A-9. Some sources say only one A-9 was built, some say none, some say a few, etc. I've never read anywhere that F-9 actually got delivered with the 801TS.
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The 190-F9 displayed shows a SC1000 (2205lbs) and could also carry 4 x SC50s (110lbs). The unit is II/JG 1. I haven't a clue whether a BMW801TS was fitted though.
But... how about a Hs 129B3? PaK 40 75mm anyone?
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/Hs129.jpg)
The Hs129 sure has various armaments available.
Regards
Nexx
[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: Replicant ]
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the Hs129 would be a neat plane to have, but other than to kill armor it has no use. Very little use for such a plane in the MA, IMO. Better a Me410 :)
The 190F8s should have wing racks for up to 250kg each. Together with the 1000kg belly bomb it could carry , that is 3200+lbs of bombs. Who said that "it was too small" to carry ordnance?
The F8 in AH lacks LOTS of weapons configurations widely used in RL. Its about time to bring them into the game. We dont need more planes than this. What we need is A DECENT, HISTORICAL ordnance choice for the F8 we have.
IMO it was the second best jabo of the war,second only to the P47, and that only because the american plane was rougher and had better guns for straffing.
[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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RAM AFAIK the 2 x 250 kg plus 1 x 500 kg was an overload for 190G. The plane could be flown but not far. You would have trouble getting off the runway with that load and full fuel.
P-38, P-47, F4U, F6F were all better fighter bombers than the 190F/G too. More durable aircraft with bigger loads, more range, and more guns.
[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Ahhh nice.
I wont have problem flying a 3x250kg loaded F8. Or a 2x250+DT. or a 2x250+4x50kg. or a 12x50kg. Or a 1 SC1000+ 2DTs (the wing racks could accomodate Drop Tanks, AFAIK)...
or the R4Ms...or the cluster bombs...or the...
the 190F8 is lacking 80% of its historical loadouts, while this same morning I saw a P47D30 with 1 1000lber, 2 500lber, and 10 5 inch rockets taking off in the MA.
Sorry but it is really annoying.
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Yep we need all that stuff for 190F/G, as I have been saying for 2 years. And P-47 should be fixed.
Just realize that 190 can't ever match the 4000 lb load of P-38 or F4U (which we don't have in AH due to obvious anti-American bias :) ).
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RAM? where did u see that P47?
That loadout doesn't exist in the MA +)
2 1000lb'ers, 10 rockets, 1 500lber does though +)
Face it no LW fighter could match that, for that matter no other non-US allied fighter could either.
SKurj
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Just for Santa:
I usually can't use each 1000# for each Osti. Because when u dive, and drop one only, your lateral CG is way off, and u always miss killing yourself on the trim. Then it messes up your zoom, and may also mess up your second 1000# drop.
My jabo load out is usually 10 rckts and 2 1000# and 1 CDT. My climb rate is less than a B17 :) ...and if you are engaged OTW to the target you better drop everything.
I have sympathie for those poor LW single seat fighters, but hey, that's History. I guess that if LW took advantage in Europe then they would had developed Jabo more, and allied defenders a pure fighter.
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OK heres one for all you allied guys.........
show me a picture of a P47d with 2x1000lbers,1x500lber AND rockets
show me a picture of a F4Uc with 2x1000lbers or any bombs on it
show me a picture of the P38L with 2x1000lbers AND rockets
on all these aircraft i can only find EITHER bombs or rockets, never both!.
and for that matter show us a picture of the P51d with the AH max loadout.
and finally show me a picture of a 190 with BOTH bombs and Wr21's.
are the full loadouts we have in AH real?
good little project for the photo hunters eh? :D
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Better yet, let's get some photos of F4U and P-38 with 2 x 2000 lb. :D
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S!
Horsepower comparison, P-47 vs FW190
P-47: 2300-2600 (not counting N or M)
FW190A 1600-1800 (I`m being generous)
Does that answer the question of why the P-47 carries more? :)
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fw190a-1 BMW 801c-1 (1,660-hp)
fw190a-3 BMW 801dg (1,800-hp)
fw190a-4 BMW 801D-2 MW50 (2,100-hp)
weight of aircraft around 7,000lb?
p47 Double wasp R-2800 (2,000-hp)
p47b R-2800-21 (with water injection 2,300-hp)
p47d some made with chrysler XIV-2220-1 (2,300-hp)
then no change in hp until
p47J RS2800-61 (2,100-hp) lighter weight wing
P47m R-2800 modified turbo chargers (2,800-hp) only 130 built
p47n R-2800-77 (2,800-hp)
weight of aircraft around 11,000lb?
yes the p47 could carry more but in what way are you being generous buzzbait?
:D
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hazed:
The P-47D-30 has 2600 HP with WEP.
Also, I don't believe A4s or A8s ever used MW-50 except experimentally.
Hooligan
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Using only power in determining how much a plane can life is sort of useless. An F-104 could only carry a few thousand lbs of ordinance, while a Skyraider could carry several times as much load with a fraction of the power. You're going to have to look at landing gear capabilities, wing lift capabilities, induced drag profiles, weight and balance situations (roll, not pitch unless weapons were set to drop in pairs), prop optimization, and im sure the list goes on and on and on. The limitation is not level flight, but just getting off the ground and accelerating out of ground effect.
Here's the loading information for a Russian Colt AN-2 Biplane that has a 1000 horsepower radial.
WEIGHTS AND LOADINGS:
Weight empty........................ ............3450 kg (7605 lb)
Max fuel weight....................... ...........900 kg (1984 lb)
Max T-O weight....................... ..........5500 kg (12125 lb)
Max landing weight....................... ......5250 kg (11574 lb)
Max zero-fuel weight....................... ....4800 kg (10582 lb)
Max wing loading....................76 .82 kg/m{2} (15.7 lb/sq ft)
Max power loading...................... ..7.38 kg/kW (12.13 lb/hp)
As you can see, power isn't the only factor in cargo lifting capacity (ordinance considered cargo in this case)
This makes 2.54 lbs of cargo/hp. Probably a little less than double what the P47 would carry per horsepower with full tanks.
[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: CJ ]