Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: A8EJay on July 30, 2009, 09:31:33 PM
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Heya fellas. Had a quick question. Been playing for about 4 months and am getting better. Once i get behind someone i can usually get 'em. But does anyone know where there's any good info on how to get people off your tail or how to avoid getting hit when someone is diving on you. I seem to be struggling with this. I usually fly the slower planes that handle better (spit altho not really slow, hurri, zeke, brewster etc). I also like the c 205, ki84, 11 and 40 jug and most of the 6 .50 american planes. I've tried a couple things, stuff i saw on history channel and some other stuff i read somewhere but its not helping. Might just need more practice and time on the game but its gettin annoying getting shot down all the time. Thanks in advance. :salute
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Have you checked out the following sites:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/
http://www.netaces.org/
Specifically these articles:
http://www.netaces.org/altmonkey/altmonkey.htm
http://www.netaces.org/gunsdefense/gunsdefense.htm
http://www.netaces.org/avoidbnz/avoidbnz.htm
http://www.netaces.org/reversals/reversals.htm
Its best not to let someone on your six in the first place. There is a difference between 'camped out' on your 6, and someone closing in on your 6 with more speed than you (closure rate). The former is the worst place to be in - eg someone with little to no closure rate dead behind you and within guns range. The later is a much better proposition. Avoid the camped out scenario at all costs!
Heres some simple things to do to help your defensives:
- stay at your aircrafts best corner velocity/turn rate. Too slow and you cant move out of your opponents cross hairs fast enough. The faster you can change heading (rate), the quicker you can move out of danger. Too slow, and you're an easy kill. You'll find this to be around 180-240 depending on the aircraft (200-220 is a good starting point).
- always turn towards your attacker, so that you pass him as close to head-on as possible. This forces them to have to turn more, and more tighter to turn onto your six which costs them energy. Also hanging out directly underneath your attacker forces them to go into steep energy wasting dives which are easily avoided.
- engineer a high closure rate, by trying to be slower than your opponent, but not below your best corner speed. This means you need to have a reasonable guess at your opponents energy stakes and speed (look at how fast the distance closes as he dives at you). Turn into them a bit so they approach you from 3-4 o'clock or 8-9 o'clock if you can't completely turn to meet them in time. This increases their closure rate and makes it easier to avoid their shots (not to mention to engineer an overshoot). Barrel-rolls can help sometimes to increase the closure rate. Use your throttle if you're too fast to slow down. Use the rudder to skid if you're too fast. Deploy airbrakes if you have em if you're too fast etc. Be careful tho, dont scrub off too much speed tho (always stay close to your best corner speed).
Do anything you can to avoid the camped out scenario, and get a moderate to high closure rate. Closure rate doesnt always mean speed differential (but this is the simplest example). Changing the "angle off tail" (the angle they approach your 6 from) changes the closure rate as well. If you are both 250MPH, if they approach from the rear, there is no closure. If you are both 250MPH and he approaches from 3 o'clock he has closure. Dont just think breaking left and right either, think up/down/left/right (eg in all 3 dimensions). Get more used to maneuvering in all dimensions to make yourself harder to hit. Get 'out of plane' (basically make sure you wings are not aligned with your attackers).
Once you get better at engineering the closure rate and following them around in your views etc you can begin to anticipate there moves and be prepared to take advantage of the overshoots and turn the tables!
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simple break in the direction there comeing at you spit9 i suggest its deadly
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Order Up:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wzezt2n0cmn
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The simple reality is that this is what the training corps is for. 30 minutes of "hands on" interaction once or twice a week can and will make a world of difference. Pop into the TA or schedule a session with one of the trainers. In a pinch I'd be happy to spend some time with you, just do a ".f snaphook" in the text buffer and give me a shout if I'm online....
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If I have an opponent diving on me from behind I prefer to break under him with a low yo-yo into him (so if he's at my 7, I go left). A low yo is good because it helps conserve your Energy. Once he blows past I'll extend in a shallow zoom climb to regain altitude. Depending on how fast he's coming in, he may overshoot and scrub his E pulling out, putting himself below me. From there I'll just pull into a high barrel-roll and drop on top of him. If he takes better care with his E state, lather, rinse repeat until you've neutralized his position.
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If I have an opponent diving on me from behind I prefer to break under him with a low yo-yo into him (so if he's at my 7, I go left). A low yo is good because it helps conserve your Energy. Once he blows past I'll extend in a shallow zoom climb to regain altitude. Depending on how fast he's coming in, he may overshoot and scrub his E pulling out, putting himself below me. From there I'll just pull into a high barrel-roll and drop on top of him. If he takes better care with his E state, lather, rinse repeat until you've neutralized his position.
good stratgey thats what i do
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The simple reality is that this is what the training corps is for. 30 minutes of "hands on" interaction once or twice a week can and will make a world of difference. Pop into the TA or schedule a session with one of the trainers. In a pinch I'd be happy to spend some time with you, just do a ".f snaphook" in the text buffer and give me a shout if I'm online....
hey......if you're gonna be in the ta perchance tonight......i think i may spend my evening there, getting practice....any help from you, cobia, any of the sapp dudes........i'm thinking i'll be there around 9'ish eastern........ :D :aok
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CAP, I should be in there tonight around that time, if you want to work on something. Just look for a Hog :D
:salute
BigRat
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CAP, I should be in there tonight around that time, if you want to work on something. Just look for a Hog :D
:salute
BigRat
will do......
i'm actually still trying to turn that 38 with the little wiggly things. i do ok, but not nearly as well as i feel i should be b now.
the other thing, is possibly avoiding hi cons. i suck at it....and i've been getting picked a LOT lately by them.
thanks dude!!
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i go left i go right i avoid the guns cause fishies dont fight
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i go left i go right i avoid the guns cause fishies dont fight
ok
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These 3 films may help.
There is a lot of talk about keeping planes in your vector, throttle management and how to get someone off our 6. With throt management comes proper rudder use as well to bleed E that is not mentioned much but should have.
The Throt training film has plenty of kills but Crazierthanu keeps talking through the whole thing. He did not know I was making a training film for my squad but it turned out good anyway.
http://download206.mediafire.com/ztzqumxzmszg/2tkntkwwzjm/%231lag+pursuit.ahf
http://download86.mediafire.com/xzuq2xoomgsg/ztztd0qzzfm/%232Remove+Lance+from+6.ahf
http://download696.mediafire.com/tkdtqhcnkcmg/ibb1zdettzm/%233Throt+manage-lag+pursuit.ahf
http://download393.mediafire.com/2mxwyjm3otwg/dnmjynnbh3t/Throt+training+2_0001.ahf
Learn this maneuver
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/Barrelroll.jpg)
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These 3 films may help.
There is a lot of talk about keeping planes in your vector, throttle management and how to get someone off our 6. With throt management comes proper rudder use as well to bleed E that is not mentioned much but should have.
The Throt training film has plenty of kills but Crazierthanu keeps talking through the whole thing. He did not know I was making a training film for my squad but it turned out good anyway.
http://download206.mediafire.com/ztzqumxzmszg/2tkntkwwzjm/%231lag+pursuit.ahf
http://download86.mediafire.com/xzuq2xoomgsg/ztztd0qzzfm/%232Remove+Lance+from+6.ahf
http://download696.mediafire.com/tkdtqhcnkcmg/ibb1zdettzm/%233Throt+manage-lag+pursuit.ahf
http://download393.mediafire.com/2mxwyjm3otwg/dnmjynnbh3t/Throt+training+2_0001.ahf
Learn this maneuver
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/Barrelroll.jpg)
Oh Geez, I feel bad :uhoh
Sorry for screwing up your training film :D (I'm guessing this is a while ago because I havn't flown with the You or the A8's in a while)
EDIT: Holy hell I Squeeked :O
I forever want this thread to die, no one must know my secret :uhoh
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simple break in the direction there comeing at you spit9 i suggest its deadly
Don't listen to stealth. Hes a dweeb, and he can't spell OR use correct punctuation. I don't know why he don't use spell check. :aok
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Don't listen to stealth. Hes a dweeb, and he can't spell OR use correct punctuation. I don't know why he don't use spell check. :aok
you mean doesn't?
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Oh Geez, I feel bad :uhoh
Sorry for screwing up your training film :D (I'm guessing this is a while ago because I havn't flown with the You or the A8's in a while)
EDIT: Holy hell I Squeeked :O
I forever want this thread to die, no one must know my secret :uhoh
(http://thesquad.forumotion.net/users/a9/77/24/39/smiles/33177.gif) Yeah you might have been a squeaker but you were one of the cool ones. I didn't lose patience with you and tell you to STFU because of it and as you can see from the film, you were pretty good at making kills. The film date was 6/10/08
The others were made in April 09 at 2 in the morning while drunk and tired. Those tactics work pretty good against most people but not against the guys who know what you know and can do it better , like Scotch.
Here are 2 of the three fights we had using the same throt management and rudder tactics. He's a helluva sim pilot and I was only able to get him once in a film not shown here because it was kind of short and you can't learn much from it....I got lucky
C202 fights to the death
http://download177.mediafire.com/9mblwhigxy3g/yzy1jz2mcty/me%26scotch+202%27s_0032.ahf
http://download194.mediafire.com/1zlch7uct9bg/myuxyfjymzc/me%26scotch+202%27s_0651.ahf
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See this thread
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261486.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261486.0.html)
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wow, never expected so many responses. Thanks so much to all of you. Last time i checked there were only 2 or 3 posts and those helped out alot already. Figured the topic would die out. I will be reading all this a few times, prob print and take to bathroom :). Seriously tho, thanks to all you guys for your help. :salute :salute
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Speed is Life. Try to up planes that can outrun most other planes, Tempest, spit 9, Pony, etc. these planes can escape the camping problem a lot of the time. The key is to dive to gain speed, they will dive as well, level out, the plane should be able to keep the energy while the slower plane will quickly lose energy. WEP helps as well <S>.
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Speed is Life. Try to up planes that can outrun most other planes, Tempest, spit 9, Pony, etc. these planes can escape the camping problem a lot of the time. The key is to dive to gain speed, they will dive as well, level out, the plane should be able to keep the energy while the slower plane will quickly lose energy. WEP helps as well <S>.
Cowardly and useless information IMO.
Since when does a spit 9 outrun most other planes BTW?
Please don't respond... at this point any tips you can bring to the table will come from absolutely no in game experience and end up being just gibberish.
Try and listen more and talk less for your first few months. You'll begin to see that fighting does not equal running.
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Is it cowardly if you have damage and need to rtb? Besides if you dont have any problems there is no reason why you can't turn around and fight them once you gain momentum.
And by the way I'm not new. I just mentioned spitfire 9 as the median spitfire, and at least I didn't say the zero was the fastest.
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Cowardly or not, I was under the impression that the OP wanted to learn how to get the enemy OFF his six, and not just further away from it ;)
There's some great information in this thread, Eagleclaw. Check it out :)
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Eagleclaw is bringing something up that i dont think was mentioned. After you fight and get a few kills you need to know when to RTB. I have gotten in the situation where i need to RTB but i want just 1 more kill and end up getting ganged low and slow and i die. You need to know how to gte out that is 1/2 the battle.
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I also messed up when i mentioned the spit 9, what i should've said is the spit 14, at high alts it is a deadly adversary. I would also like to point out that I didnt mean for this to become such an issue, but I can't count how many times I have successfully returned to base using this technique.
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Eagleclaw is bringing something up that i dont think was mentioned. After you fight and get a few kills you need to know when to RTB. I have gotten in the situation where i need to RTB but i want just 1 more kill and end up getting ganged low and slow and i die. You need to know how to gte out that is 1/2 the battle.
Trust me, you'll have no problem getting another plane.
There is no single answer or point of view that is correct. A baby learns to crawl before it can walk and fundamentals of situational awareness and plane handling take time and effort. As your skill set grows then certain fundamental choices become more apparent. If viewed from the perspective of "historical reality" then an obvious bias toward both positional advantage and superior performance is only natural. However, the reality is that many thousands of brave men (and women) flew inferior planes in adverse situations and not only lived but triumphed.
At some point it time it is natural to take the measure of your innate ability and to rely less on the strength of position or airframe. From there you reach a point where the reality is that only a lack of bullets or fluids (blood,oil,petrol) forces a break from the action.
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Trust me, you'll have no problem getting another plane.
There is no single answer or point of view that is correct. A baby learns to crawl before it can walk and fundamentals of situational awareness and plane handling take time and effort. As your skill set grows then certain fundamental choices become more apparent. If viewed from the perspective of "historical reality" then an obvious bias toward both positional advantage and superior performance is only natural. However, the reality is that many thousands of brave men (and women) flew inferior planes in adverse situations and not only lived but triumphed.
At some point it time it is natural to take the measure of your innate ability and to rely less on the strength of position or airframe. From there you reach a point where the reality is that only a lack of bullets or fluids (blood,oil,petrol) forces a break from the action.
YAKNOW......
some of the things you were showing me the other nigfht in ta...i tried putting them to use in mw on sunday. mannnn was my timing off!!! :rofl
they did however, help me avoid several ho passes, and led to 3 victories.
you pumped so much info into me that my head hurt a little. :aok
thanks dude!!!!!
<<S>>
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Trust me, you'll have no problem getting another plane.
There is no single answer or point of view that is correct. A baby learns to crawl before it can walk and fundamentals of situational awareness and plane handling take time and effort. As your skill set grows then certain fundamental choices become more apparent. If viewed from the perspective of "historical reality" then an obvious bias toward both positional advantage and superior performance is only natural. However, the reality is that many thousands of brave men (and women) flew inferior planes in adverse situations and not only lived but triumphed.
At some point it time it is natural to take the measure of your innate ability and to rely less on the strength of position or airframe. From there you reach a point where the reality is that only a lack of bullets or fluids (blood,oil,petrol) forces a break from the action.
This is true, when you survive and get more experience, you can use your plane's superior attributes to your advantage, and learn to use other planes; an example is the zero, although not very fast the plane has outstanding turning ability and maneuverability that outmatches most if not all fighters.
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This is true, when you survive and get more experience, you can use your plane's superior attributes to your advantage, and learn to use other planes; an example is the zero, although not very fast the plane has outstanding turning ability and maneuverability that outmatches most if not all fighters.
I appreciate your response but your missing the heart of the debate. In its own way the zero is as formidable as any plane in the set. Again your relying on the power of the machine and not the savvy of the pilot. As an alternative consider the SBD instead, a plane very capable of standing up to most fighters when well handled.
While without question an equal pilot will have an advantage you will find that time spent in an "inferior" aircraft will provide experience and a greater understanding of the interdynamics of ACM that will allow you to gain valuable insight and significant applicable ACM.
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YAKNOW......
some of the things you were showing me the other nigfht in ta...i tried putting them to use in mw on sunday. mannnn was my timing off!!! :rofl
they did however, help me avoid several ho passes, and led to 3 victories.
you pumped so much info into me that my head hurt a little. :aok
thanks dude!!!!!
<<S>>
MP,
No question that at times not only is some of the stuff counter intuitive but also situationally dependent. Thats what makes it so much fun once you get a feel for it. Very few guys have a complete grasp....as we discussed there are any number of sticks in the game who still leave me baffled and confused...it all looks great :x...right up till its not :O :furious :noid
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A8E,
There's been some valuable imformation shared here,spatula and humble's in paticular,then there's been some imformation thats was not so helpful.I'd advise you to film all your flights,study these films,learn your mistakes and victories.Fight till your outta ammo or fuel or get shot down then up again and go at it.Mostly have fun,practice to improve and pick a plane to send as much time as possible in.
The training arena is there for a reason,use it to learn your chosen ride.Oh ya read as much as you can on ACM,google is your friend.
Remember,we all get shot down,it's what you learn from being shot that makes the difference!
Oh and I must repeat myself....Have Fun!
:salute
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I pull myself into a rolling scissors when they get on my six, while slowly backing off the throttle, until I get to a speed where I can drop at least two notches of flaps. Then, I seem to level out, just above my and their stall speed with out flaps, drop as much flaps as I can, or, if I'm in a hog, I drop a gear if I need to, shoot underneath them, and open up with my guns.
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By circumstance I had an opportunity to work with someone previously unknown to me in the TA not long ago (ardy?). We covered a lot of ground and touched on a number of diverse topics. At various points I spent some time with him in trail having him close to 600 yds or less and then trying to hit me. Initially he found it difficult if not impossible to hit me at all, as we continued he was able to manufacture an occasional snapshot ans then progress toward establishing and maintaining proper position.
While a lot of meaningful information has been presented some fundamental points have been left untouched your options on defense are dictated by your opponent (otherwise your not defensive). His plane type, speed, range and Angle off Tail (AoT) all have an impact on your options. It is impossible to have a single "move" that is successful the majority of the time. So how do the consistent killers do it?
1) They learn to manipulate the encounter to influence the behavior they want
2) They have a variety of moves that complement each other
3) They have mastered the flight envelopes of the planes they prefer to fly
4) They have learned to read an opponents lift vector and understand the range of options at any given moment
5) They always maintain sight of the opponent
All of this starts with a con 6oo yds behind you (yes ideally you won't ever let him there when it counts). By learning to manipulate and deny a foe a tracking shot (or any shot at all) you begin to learn what signs you send and what responses they generate. Over time that range of influence expands. Most of the games true killers are just as comfortable (some more so) with a bogey 1000 back as a 1000 in front. This mirrors the old adage "better a mig on my 6 then no mig at all".
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Sometimes the best move is hardly no move at all. If the con diving on you has thought out all the possibilities he can still be thrown off with the unexpected. A simple roll to the right but don't go right will throw some off.
Do not find one thing that works once and keep doing it. Develope a bag of tricks. If a con knows your going to break right and up every time your going to be seeing a lot of the tower.
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Has anyone mention "stick stirring" long enough to stall for some time, while you wait for a cherry picker to come to your rescue? That's a popular thing I see done all the time. Quite efficient as well. Actually, if you craft the fine art of "stick stirring", you will almost never get shot down from a co E, on your six fight.
I don't play much anymore, because of "stick stirrers" and the like, but last thing I studied, years ago, when I actually did care about this game, was "cross control". If I remember correctly, you turn to the right a little bit, lift your nose into the air to the point you are about to "stall" your left wing, then use right full rudder and left full aileron. This maneuver will make your left wing stall, I think its your left wing, and makes your airplane snap right around and down toward the ground. I practiced it many times, and as far as real true to life aerodynamics go, this level of physics is indeed incorporated into this game. I can, or you can, literally "stall" a wing in this game while the other wing still has lift, and this is the fastest way to turn an airplane around, at least as far as I know. I am an idiot though, so please forgive me and keep this in mind.
Oh, I said lift your left wing in a right hand turn going up a little bit, and then use right full rudder and left full aileron, but maybe its left full rudder and right full aileron, I cant remember for sure, but I think that was correct. If you learn this move, obviously, you can do it in a left hand turn as well, lifting your right wing toward stall.
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Has anyone mention "stick stirring" long enough to stall for some time, while you wait for a cherry picker to come to your rescue? That's a popular thing I see done all the time. Quite efficient as well. Actually, if you craft the fine art of "stick stirring", you will almost never get shot down from a co E, on your six fight.
Yer just bitter because you can't hit those dead fish.To kill a "stick stirrer", you don't follow them through the revolutions, but rather wait for them to make the bank, then use your aircraft's greater E to follow in a pure or lag pursuit until you get to within 200 yards. Then, you wait for them to begin the bank, and open up with your aircraft's guns, as a yanker can't roll if he wants to go in a particular direction.