Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: LLv34_Camouflage on March 12, 2001, 08:34:00 AM
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Hi!
We did some testing if the german mauser weapons had AP ammo in the FW 190 F-8, the ground attack variant. Here's how we tested this in AH H2H:
(http://www.hut.fi/u/vpitkane/LLv34/AH/f8_1.gif)
Pic 1: After multiple unsuccesful (lots of hits, no damage) air to ground gunnery passes on a panzer, we rolled next to it to get better hits. Unfortunately, when rolling gear up next to the panzer, you had to go very close to hit it. Your own cannon rounds then exploded your plane. This suggests the rounds are HE, along with the fact that the pnzr didn't receive any damage.
(http://www.hut.fi/u/vpitkane/LLv34/AH/f8_2.gif)
(http://www.hut.fi/u/vpitkane/LLv34/AH/f8_3.gif)
Pics 2 and 3: We then rolled our F-8's next to the panzer and collapsed our gear. This enabled us to hit the panzer from a bit further away. In both pictures the distance is 40 yards. Over 1000 MG151 20mm cannon hits to the rear of the pnzr failed to do any damage to the tank.
Conclusions: The MG151 20mm cannon in AH does not have AP ammo.
Here is a translation from an ammunition manual, which LLv34_Flanker aka DB603 kindly translated from finnish. The MG151/20 cannon had four types of AP rounds, and one type of practise AP round.
Could we have these ammo types modelled in AH for the 20mm MG151/20 cannon?
MG151/20 20mm Cannon Ammunition
20mm AP ammo
Weight of bullet is 115g and Vo=705m/s.Total weight with shell is 205g.Primary use for A/A combat and against ground targets.Penetrates 13mm of armor(120kg/mm2) at angle of 60’ from 100m.No explosive charge,only penetration effect.
20mm AP grenade
Weight of bullet 115g and total with shell 205g.Vo=705m/s.Primary use against armored or hardened ground targets(vehicles etc.).After penetrating minimum of 5mm armor explodes(4g of Nitropenta explosive) and spreads fragments.Penetrates 13mm of armor(150kg/mm2) at angle of 60’ from 100m.
20mm AP Incendiary (phospor)
Weight of bullet 115g and total weight with shell 202g.Vo=705m/s.Used in A/A and A/G against heavily armed targets(bombers,ground attack planes,tanks,trains etc.).To destroy the grenade it needs to penetrate minimum of 3-15mm armor or similar hardened structure depending on angle of impact. After penetration spreads the phospor that burns with high temperature damaging the target’s structure and ignintes any flammable liquids(fuel etc.). Penetrates normal(150kg/mm2) armor at angle of 90’/60’ 23mm/12mm from 100m.Penetrates surface tempered armor at angle of 90’/60’ 13mm/6mm from 100m.
20mm AP Incendiary(with electrontube filling)
Weight of bullet 117g and total weight with shell 207g.Used against merchant ships and light combat vessels.Penetrates at angle of 75’ 15mm of structural steel.Needs minimum of 4mm of structure to be penetrated before detonation can occur.Incendiary effect is achieved with an electrontube(with 6.2g of incendiary filling) that detonates.When several ammo of same type hit the target,continuous incediary effect is activated.
20mm AP (practise)
Weight 115g/205g with shell.Vo=705m/s.Penetration value small or none.Used only for practise shooting or operational test shooting.
Thanks!
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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If nothing else, HTC please modify Fw 190F-8 MG 151/20 cannon to fire AP rounds because that's what they did in real life too. Thanks!
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Testing? Is that what you call trying to cross a Focke Wulfe with a Panzer?!(see first pic)
Fortunately for the known world, none of the Focke Wulfe's "rounds" were able to "penetrate" the tough exterior of the Panzer and "detonate" inside...
Seriously: AP ammo would be good for the Fw 190F-8, along with more ordinance options too.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 03-12-2001).]
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...and with Hispano it's more than easy to kill panzer from varying distances and with MG151/20 you don't do anything from any distance.
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Very nice camo, very nice indeed.
I'll replicate the test with other guns, such as the ShVAKS and hispanos and see what happens.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsanta.tripod.com/stSanta.jpg)
"Live to pull, pull to live"
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Guys just fly the fargin chog its whats HTC wants anyway why the hell else would have they put such insignificant piece of toejam in the game. Man no wonder the 151/20 doesnt even have mineshells modeled. Sheesh thx for the test- and unfoirtunatly the very dissapointing news, sorry HTC this really sucks for me as customer why do you only put the super combined ammo on the BS chog types, I love flying your game but this is just plain unfair. 1000rds from 40ft away and nothing when chog can kill panzer in 2 passes WHAT THE HELL IS THIS HTC SHOULD WE ALL JUST FLY CHOGS? no wonder the bombers must have super guns with godddam A-10 chogs flying around. sorry to all (especially HTC) who take this as offensive message but this crap has really pissed me off somehow special I dont know why but it just seems like a cummmulation of all the BS AH has in it. Again im sorry, but also very upset about this.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
I'll replicate the test with other guns, such as the ShVAKS and hispanos and see what happens.
That will be interesting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Thanks Santa!
Camo
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I see no one has bothered comparing the PzIV's armor values to the MG 151/20's penetration values.
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"Testing? Is that what you call trying to cross a Focke Wulfe with a Panzer?!(see first pic)"
Aha!..this explains the Pzkw109F we had in WB!.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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I, personally, would love to be able to choose my ammunition type. I don't really see why it can't be selected.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Agree with Karnak, the hability to choose the ammunition type would be a MAJOR improvement to the game. And we already have this feature present, but only in the tanks.
[This message has been edited by MANDOBLE (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Welcome to Aces Allied High. Seriously, this problem is well known. HTC never said anything about Spitfire MkV blowing up PzIV with only 2 Hispanos and about 20mm Mausers not being able to knock out even Flakpanzers (PzrIII chassis I guess).
You know? Hurricanes IID in North Africa were barely able to knock out PzIV with their 2x40mm. They mainly knocked out italian tin cans, PzII, PzIII and trucks.
Ehehe, during Africa Korps scenario I was really pissed off about it ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Enjoy AH for what it is.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by Jigster:
I see no one has bothered comparing the PzIV's armor values to the MG 151/20's penetration values.
Armor Detail
front Side Rear Top/Bottom
Hull 80mm@76° 30mm@90° 20mm@82° 10mm@0°
structure 80mm@80° 30mm@90° 20mm@79° 12mm@0-
Turret 50mm@80° 30mm@64° 30mm@75° 15mm@0-7°
Mantlet 50mm@60-90°
I cut off the last column on the structure..it should read 12mm@0-5 (degrees)
For some reason when I view the post the columns are all screwed up.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
(http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/27/1444127.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 03-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Actually, neither the Hispano nor the MG151's should be able to penetrate the armor of Panzer. the Velocity of the Hispano is about 250 F/s higher, that does a few more millimeters TOP.
However, this might be for gameplay since we don't have a JU87G or a Hurricane IID.
If Hispano can do it then MG151 should do it too, tired of seeing Hispanos kill a Panzer Head On Front Armor from 500 yards when an MG151 can't even kill it from 50 yards (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
HTC, either make it possible for both to penetrate OR (better) take it away completely for the hispanos too.
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer
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S!
A little addition here.The 20mm API round COULD penetrate the rear of the panzer.The engine compartment doesn't have armor plates on it,but a hood.When entering the engine area the 20mm would for sure do some serious damage and stop the engine and even ignite the fuel.It should also be noted that the Vo is propably measured on a STATIC gun,not from a flying plane.Wouldn't the speed of the aircraft add some to the Vo?About the Hispano.It has been numerous times when a Spit or another HispanoWonder hits the tank with a short burst and BOOM!Why do the Allied have a super cannon and the Luftwaffles have to be happy with a piece of JUNK(at the moment)?Not even the 30mm do any harm...and it packs a serious punch.
The armor values of the Ostwind are also a bit funny.A not so very well armored PzIII chassis with an OPEN TOP turret and U can't kill it,execpt with the KwK75/48L or Hispano or a well placed bomb...M3 is killable, and also the M16, with MG151/20 or Mk108.
This sim is in general a VERY good one,but some flaws like this kill some of the enjoyability...My 2 cents.
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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Couldn't agree more DB.
As to the Osti, like DB said it has an open top, and even if a HE 30mm Mk108 couldn't penetrate the armor there it would most surely destroy that 37mm gun and/or blow up the ammonition for it.
If you have actually seen the blast power from a 30mm (pictures from single 30mm hits on 4 engined heavy bombers etc) and you'd know that 1 single it up in the osti would either destroy the gun or the ammonition.
Allso, 1x30mm on the top of a Panzer would most likely take out that 30 cal MG, I put about 20x30mm rounds on top of a tank and he could still use the 30 cal gun.
Dammage modelling needs some serious tweaking.
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer
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Ok you Luftwaffe fans, get it straight which way you want it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ever since this game has come outta beta, there have been continuous complaints that the MG151 was not shooting exclusively mine shells.
Now you want AP instead?
Which is it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ok you Luftwaffe fans, get it straight which way you want it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ever since this game has come outta beta, there have been continuous complaints that the MG151 was not shooting exclusively mine shells.
Now you want AP instead?
Which is it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
If I could choose it, I would choose less lethal Hispano rounds, to get game more accurate.
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The option to chose your ammo load out would be best for one and all I think.
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d0oIf2G2fjCRTj7hyEvYcWmo1dqVPNVidv0IyGaKGTKfVr0xJwvmwZcDLEVY)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-12-2001).]
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LOL
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here is an exterior ballistics file that computes Kinetic Energy, bullet drop, recoil, and many other options with are really irrelevant to anything but the big game hunter. However numbers don't lie and I would love to punch holes in fishu's (and other LW lobbyist) dream that the mauser somehow on par with the hispano (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Of coarse I am sure that they will ignore this as they have other evidence also. Now keep in mind that HE rounds have a specific application and they sacrifice other attributes that AP or BALL ammo have. Like superior penetration. Combined with the fact that the the Hispano has over TWICE the energy as the mauser from the muzzle to any range it is no surprise that it outperformed the 151. Now also a given is that both rounds were very destructive on AC, it really matters not that one outperforms the other unless for the sake of endless argument...which we have all been subject too ever since this debate was intiated in the flight sim world. Both rounds cut ac skins to shreds. Now in the case of armor, the current way AH has modeled the guns and projectiles the hispano has the clear advantage and rightfully so. Its faster, the projectiles Sectional density, velocity, and weight are greater. All that means is it is like comparing geting hit by a heavy 18 wheeler( hispano) traveling at 100 MPH as opposed to a volkswagon (mauser) at 70 MPH.
here is the file, notice the kinetic energy, the path of the bullet, recoil...etc. It all means that the hispano IS SUPERIOR to the mauser. I probably should start anothner thread for this though. The numbers were collected from sources online, namely Tony Williams discussion board where he has posted velocity, Ballistic Coefficients, projectile weights...etc... the excell file does the computations.
ballistics (http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/EXT_BAL.xls)
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 03-12-2001).]
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How many times do I have to say that I have no doubt that Hispano was better than MG151/20?
Only difference here is just that Hispano is blowing up the tanks beyond belief compared to any other cannon.
and yes.. Hispano uses AP ammo, remember the tradeoff between HE and AP?
It wouldn't blow up wings on one hit from above just like that with two hits so often.
how do you explain HE hits then? it would make one big hole on the wing surface (probably through) and I don't think that plane would like some big holes there even if wingtip isnt cut away.
so.. how does Hispano get benefit of HE and AP round while MG151/20 seems to be HE, if even that?
Probably just because of the way damage is modelled.
It doesn't seem to me that theres such thing as 'penetration' effect.. seems just simple as if hits one spot, damage is there, not anywhere else even if bullet would had cut through the plane.
That would of course give some benefit for Hispano.
dont go say that AH does model penetration, since I've shot with BB guns right into spits nose so that its rear fuselage has blown off..
That would had required BB rounds go through engine block AND the fuel tank. (fuel tank in spitfires is nicely placed in front of the pilot)
so, quit claiming that I am comparing MG151/20 and Hispano to anywhere equal.
besides, same lack is with ShVAK's.. they're on the same line with MG151/20
so im not only thinking MG151/20
Its pure bull... that spitfire can knock couple of tanks with its cannons while ground attack Fw190 cant do that at all. (only handsomehunk would load it up with HE when supposed to strafe armored targets)
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Vermillion very simple answer I want both, as it was explained Hispano has AP and AH modeld as ONE ROUND that is it has full armor penetrating performance of the Hispano AP shell combined with the full explosive power of Hispano HE sheel- ALL IN EACH AND EVERY ROUND. Its quite clear now that MG151 only has the weakest possible HE shell only, no AP shell and no mineshell. So what I want is that MG151 gets the Hispano ammo treatment best case AP combined with best case HE (Minengeschoss) all in one round for each and every round just like HISPANO HAS HAD FROM THE START. Even you will have to agree its only fair since Hispano allready has it, right verm you are concerned with things being fair and equal? Right?
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Originally posted by Fishu:
How many times do I have to say that I have no doubt that Hispano was better than MG151/20?
Only difference here is just that Hispano is blowing up the tanks beyond belief compared to any other cannon.
and yes.. Hispano uses AP ammo, remember the tradeoff between HE and AP?
It wouldn't blow up wings on one hit from above just like that with two hits so often.
how do you explain HE hits then? it would make one big hole on the wing surface (probably through) and I don't think that plane would like some big holes there even if wingtip isnt cut away.
so.. how does Hispano get benefit of HE and AP round while MG151/20 seems to be HE, if even that?
Probably just because of the way damage is modelled.
It doesn't seem to me that theres such thing as 'penetration' effect.. seems just simple as if hits one spot, damage is there, not anywhere else even if bullet would had cut through the plane.
That would of course give some benefit for Hispano.
dont go say that AH does model penetration, since I've shot with BB guns right into spits nose so that its rear fuselage has blown off..
That would had required BB rounds go through engine block AND the fuel tank. (fuel tank in spitfires is nicely placed in front of the pilot)
so, quit claiming that I am comparing MG151/20 and Hispano to anywhere equal.
besides, same lack is with ShVAK's.. they're on the same line with MG151/20
so im not only thinking MG151/20
Its pure bull... that spitfire can knock couple of tanks with its cannons while ground attack Fw190 cant do that at all. (only handsomehunk would load it up with HE when supposed to strafe armored targets)
wooo Got a nerve (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) sorry.
Fishu have you ever shot a real gun? Have you ever witnessed the effects of a High power rifle cartridge on different types of medium?
the "penetration" effect you speak of is not as you invision. First, there are many factors that have affect on the terminal ballistics of a projectile. Terminal being once the projectile strikes its target. Angle, medium type, velocity, and many other things can cause bullets to do strange sometimes but mostly predictable things. I suspect you invision AP ammo making a clean cylindrical hole through an ac damaging only that which is within its .78 inch diameter through the medium. Well that is just wrong. A very high velocity round is very destructive as it passes through. It wrecks havoc along its ever increasing path through whatever it hits. picture a rear quarter attack and bullets are striking a wing at the trailing edge of the ailerons or flaps. Do you think these bullets will just make a small .78 inch hole through the wing and exit the leading edge? They will tear the sskin off the wing and make very large exit holes and if the hti the spar square on, most likely it will be structurally dammged.
I also gather that you believe that these rounds just dont have what it takes to penetrate tank armor? Based on what? I have fired my puny 30-06 through 1/4" pot steel with ease. This is a 165 grain bullet at 2800 FPS, how much more would a 2000 grain projectile at the same velocity penetrate?
This "explosive" efffect of AP hispano ammo you seem to think..I will be honest when i say i dont get where you get that. Has it been stated by HTC staff that hispano ammo is both HE and AP? I can assure you that hispano ammo does not need to be explosive to be destructive to armor AND thin AC skins. Its Kinetice energy and impact speed is plenty. Look, I know you are a dedicated LW guy. I am just a guy that enjoys Flight sims and flying with my buds. I am also a 50 cal type of guy. I just get tired of hearing the dribble. Some of this stuff that is being said as facts..are just opinions, biased one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I am a Munitions Technician with the USAF for 13 years, I rarely get involved with htese fruitless discussions, but had a hair up my ... to say this.
Nothing personal to you or anyone, just the facts sir...
ammo
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
wooo Got a nerve (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) sorry.
Fishu have you ever shot a real gun? Have you ever witnessed the effects of a High power rifle cartridge on different types of medium?
the "penetration" effect you speak of is not as you invision. First, there are many factors that have affect on the terminal ballistics of a projectile. Terminal being once the projectile strikes its target. Angle, medium type, velocity, and many other things can cause bullets to do strange sometimes but mostly predictable things. I suspect you invision AP ammo making a clean cylindrical hole through an ac damaging only that which is within its .78 inch diameter through the medium. Well that is just wrong. A very high velocity round is very destructive as it passes through. It wrecks havoc along its ever increasing path through whatever it hits. picture a rear quarter attack and bullets are striking a wing at the trailing edge of the ailerons or flaps. Do you think these bullets will just make a small .78 inch hole through the wing and exit the leading edge? They will tear the sskin off the wing and make very large exit holes and if the hti the spar square on, most likely it will be structurally dammged.
I also gather that you believe that these rounds just dont have what it takes to penetrate tank armor? Based on what? I have fired my puny 30-06 through 1/4" pot steel with ease. This is a 165 grain bullet at 2800 FPS, how much more would a 2000 grain projectile at the same velocity penetrate?
This "explosive" efffect of AP hispano ammo you seem to think..I will be honest when i say i dont get where you get that. Has it been stated by HTC staff that hispano ammo is both HE and AP? I can assure you that hispano ammo does not need to be explosive to be destructive to armor AND thin AC skins. Its Kinetice energy and impact speed is plenty. Look, I know you are a dedicated LW guy. I am just a guy that enjoys Flight sims and flying with my buds. I am also a 50 cal type of guy. I just get tired of hearing the dribble. Some of this stuff that is being said as facts..are just opinions, biased one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I am a Munitions Technician with the USAF for 13 years, I rarely get involved with htese fruitless discussions, but had a hair up my ... to say this.
Nothing personal to you or anyone, just the facts sir...
ammo
Dedicated LW guy? no im not.
Dedicated LW guys dont fly P47s or P51B's
I just don't mind to get killed by one or two hits of HS or get killed by chogs in pass or two in my panzer, while I can just laugh at pathetic tries of non HS equipped planes. not fun at all.
I Have heard alot about HS, more than I've heard of MG151/20, but they never mention it being better tank killer than rockets.
I do know pretty good what sort of damage AP bullet does, but its not like HE ammo.
Why don't you talk about all that what HE round does? it isn't just a piece of crap against aluminium skin.
You forgot to mention heat effects totally with your AP story.. it creates alot heat as well when AP round smashes through the structure. (already .50cal does that pretty well)
Are you just trying to be in worth with your biased mind?
yes, maybe you're the biased one here since you can't even accept possibility of HS being too superb or other cannons too weak?
Hispano is ridicilously super killer compared to ANY other cannon of same caliber.. this isn't anymore explained by its superior trajectory or any other such crap.
I don't change my mind about this until I see definitive test results.
Already dedicated anti-tank 20mm guns with higher velocity were weak enough against PZ-IVh and from far closer ranges than what planes in AH shoots PZ-IVhs with super HS's.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Score another one for the UBB, it just ate another post I took about an hour and a half on so excuse my attitude.
In brief:
LW guys have a legitimate concern. The Hispano is exceding it's historical penetration values.
However the LW people have gone off base about adding AP ammo to their planes (again). You've already got it. And the mine shell. Thats as deadly as it's going to get. It still doesn't come close to the combined Hispano round and theirs not much you can do about it. The MG 151/20 does not have the penetrating power for tank killing.
Yes HTC uses the best capabilites of each round. This is "mixed ammunition belt" simulating.
Comparing any kind of face hardened armor to any other medium is a severly misleading concept.
As far as armor goes, most WWII 20mm aircraft guns don't have the combined mass/diameter/speed to effectively defeat the armor (yes yes there are AP/HE but they are a serious trade off). Since they are only chunks of steel with no secondary damage provisions, once the armor kills the round's kinetic energy, it's useless. And it doesn't take much armor to do so for rounds small masses. This is why APC/APCBC, the most common types of AP tank ammo during WWII, exploded after impact. Subcores had to be super dense and fired at hyper velocity to be more effective then the APC round after penetration.
Armor was designed to protect what lay underneath it. If it fails, but kills the KE of a steel AP round it has still served it's purpose.
grumble, mutter, grumble.
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A few comments. There was plain AP ammo for the Hispano (it was a US standard item), but it seems that the RAF didn't use it. Standard RAF loadout from mid-war onwards was an equal mix of HEI and SAPI. The SAPI consisted of an incendiary shell with an armour-piercing cap, so its penetration was only around 18mm, which was considered good enough to deal with any aircraft armour or ground targets except tanks.
The MG 151 AP was about 115g at 700 m/s, instead of 130g at 880 m/s for the Hispano. It was capable of penetrating up to 20mm at short range.
The British did develop an experimental "Hartkern" round for the Hispano (tungsten carbide core) which was calculated to penetrate up to 65mm, IIRC, but it had stability problems and never made it into production.
The smallest gun capable of making much impression on a medium tank was the 23mm VYa. If anyone'sinterested, I can try to dig out my examples of these ammo and post a comparative picture.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm)
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S!
It is evident that the Hispano is better in ballistics etc. but the MG151/20 was not that bad as it is here.-ammo- told he has been in the USAF with munitions,well I am in the FAF dealing with such stuff too,so it's no lack of docs et. here...And FAF used the MG151/20 after the war as a self defense gun,since it could do SEVERE damage on the target it hitted and was effective at longer ranges seen here.REAL LIFE facts,not just a simulation.It's just so darn frustrating to get killed in AH by a Hispano wonder just pointing the barrels at Ya and firing some rounds and U can make the tank/bomber crew laugh with the MG151/20...To put aside the comparison between cannons,I would like to see the damage model tweaked over for the GV's,especially Ostwind.
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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I know for a fact that Jug drivers in the Italian theatre were trained to fire at close range at the road surface in front of armour, the theory being that the rounds would ricochet up into the thin belly of the vehicle. Admittedly I'd imagine that the rounds would bury them selves into the road top, but then who am I to doubt a Silver Star decorated pilot?
My point being that if a Jug was used as an armour killer (and it was); it seems entirely reasonable that an Fw would function in that regard too.
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Fishu- I will digress at this point here. this debate it seems will no longer be productive (was it ever? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). However for the record..again.. I am not a big faithfull follower of the hispano equiped AC, just the truth.
also if you look back thru my 2 posts fellas-- I did not mention other specific effects of the projectile in terminal state..but I did say many. Please dont try to tear holes in my posts with untruths. Also I did say that Both rounds are VERY destructive and the only purpose this debate serves anymore is for the sake of argument-- since BOTH ROUNDS DID WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO!
<S> fishu, all
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I think the main gripe here is this:
1) the Hispano has superior penetrating power. This is not in debate. This makes it more useful against ground targets. It is modeled as such in AH.
2) The MG151/20 with the Mine shell is superior in chemical energy. This would make it more damaging against air targets. This is NOT modeled in AH.
p.s. Jugs bouncing rounds off the road into the bottom of vehicles? maybe Volkswagens (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-13-2001).]
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
I think the main gripe here is this:
1) the Hispano has superior penetrating power. This is not in debate. This makes it more useful against ground targets. It is modeled as such in AH.
2) The MG151/20 with the Mine shell is superior in chemical energy. This would make it more damaging against air targets. This is NOT modeled in AH.
p.s. Jugs bouncing rounds off the road into the bottom of vehicles? maybe Volkswagens (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
I still do doubt Hispanos capability of being having that good tank killer capability.
I don't believe in such crap as Hispanos killing PZ-IVh on a pass or two frequently.
Definately not blow it up.
Most crap comes from low 12 attacks or side attacks.. when even 37mm anti-tank gun has problems penetrating the front from 300 yards ahead, not to talk about plane strafing it from 12 ahead from 800 to 150 yards and boom.
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Ammo, I tried to download your file but got a "bad file" error. Could you email it to me?
Tony, I have recently been looking at some photocopies of the US Army's manuals of the different guns/ammunition of the combatants of WWII, in this case the Japanese (thanks Brady) TM 9-1985-5. Any ideas where I can order a copy of this document? I found one company online that offers to make you photocopies, but they want $45 per manual (5 in all) and they're only photocopies. I did find one copy of TM 9-2200 which is the US aircraft gun and ammunition manual online for $25, which I will probably order today.
Any ideas where too look?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Vermillion - sorry, I'd like a copy of that myself!
Seeker - I know that P-47s did fire at the road in the hope that the bullets would bounce up and strike the underside of the tank, but I've never read about any case when it actually worked. Consider this: Maximum penetration of .5" Browning AP at normal ranges 15-20mm: Striking angle after bouncing off the road maybe 30 degrees: effective penetration at this angle 5-10mm (or less because the bullet probably wouldn't strike point-first after hitting the road): armour thickness under German medium tanks in 1944 around 25mm. Result: German tank crew mildly irritated by noise like hailstorm!
There has been a GREAT deal written about the difference between tanks claimed destroyed by P-47 and Typhoon units and the wrecks found on the ground. It works out at about a 10:1 claim:kill ratio.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm)
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I don't doubt that the Hispano was better against Armor, it had a higher speed and (I am not sure) and greater mass, although not much.
However, that a Hispano round penetrates 50-80mm of Armor on a WW2 tank is totally BS.
The steal that tanks use is treated and therefor it is much stronger and more durable then a normal steal can, so you
can't in anyway compare it to shoot at a tin can with a hand gun.
The Hispanos should be better, yes. But they should NOT kill a Panzer MK 4 HO (80mm treatet armor) where even some Allied Tanks guns had trouble.
I don't want the MG151 better, but the Hispano should be turned down against armor, it shouldn't kill panzers.
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer
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Do we really have the mineshell for the MG151??
From my experience in A2A combat we dont have it.
The mineshell was one of the most effective shells vs. airplanes (it will not do any harm to a panzer), due their their vulneralbe parts liek control cabels, radiators etc..
But the MG131 seems to do much more dmg to an enemy plane than the MG151. I have tried to kill planes with MG151 only, its pretty close to hopeless, if u compare it to any other 20mm cannon in the game.
And i think both the hispanoes and the 20mms on the hog are a bit overpowered atm. Especially as they seem to have more effect on tanks than a 30 mm MK108 shell.
And now dont tell me a 330g shell at least as much power as a 20 mm Hispano round.
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Naudet, what you have is a simulated "mixed" ammunition belt, combined into a single ammunition type. Its this way for all the guns in AH.
Empirical evidence from testing within the game indicates that the MG151/20 has mine shell ammunition in approximately 1 in 3 rounds of ammunition. Which is how it was historically used in WWII.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Tony, look here for that info I mentioned.
http://www.military-info.com/MPHOTO/P108.htm (http://www.military-info.com/MPHOTO/P108.htm)
I would love to see some of this info, but for just photocopies the prices seem a bit extreme to me.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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What evidence verm?, even then Hispanos had 50/50 AP HE but every single round in AH has both of them, it doesnt take account of the ratio. Thats all I want equal treatment between the guns because right now its absolute roadkill. Hispano in AH should have better armor penetration than 151, as it had faster and heavier shell, however this test 100% shows that MG151 has absolutely no AP modeling whatsoever in AH. Plus no modeling of mineshell since I have often hosed Bombers and fiters with MG151 fire and they had no damage, if there was even 1/3 mineshells as u say they should be destroyed as mineshell had way more HE effect on planes than even the best Hispano round.
And we all know how few hits are required to kill with Hispanos.
Here is my suggestion for your consideration.
Would you think it fair balance if Hispano has superior ballistics and range and better AP performance , while MG151 gets some AP capability and Mineshells- thus leaving it with lesser balistics, superior HE and inferior AP?
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 03-13-2001).]
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Fellows, we now need someone to come up with the following type of data:
1) The amount of HE in a hispano HE-shell and a mine shell and thus also the respective chemical (explosive) energy of those rounds.
2) The kinetic energy of both rounds. (These have been thrown around the BBS for n times so they are there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ).
3) Some sort of formula for the effect of those two forces on the structure of an airplane.
What I am getting to here is that we should establish how much the explosive energy compensates for the lack of kinetic energy. If for examples, it would be found out that explosive energy has a tenfold effect compared with kinetic energy, we would have a whole new situation in our hands. These things are however difficult to qualify but perhaps we could try? If we get this one straight, we can blabber on about ammo belts and other more irrelevant stuff. This is what matters most.
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SageFIN
"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
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For the millionth time, AP/HE/M-G is already modeled.
The AP shell has no real penetration vs the Panzer because it's penetration values aren't high enough. It's a lighter round with less kinetic energy. Then again from most angles the Hispano shouldn't either. And that's my biggest gripe.
Don't think of the 1/3 as a ratio...it doesn't work that way. You get the best characterisitc of each round type.
I'd assume you get the muzzle velocity, chemical explosive content of the Mine shell, and the shell mass of the AP round. The mine shell's destructive power is probably reduced somewhat to coincide with a HE shell mixed inbetween. Even with these capabilites it is no where as lethal as the combined kinetic energy of the Hispano which is unbelievebly higher then the Mauser, and it's HE content, that isn't all that much less then the mine shell, a rather off-balancing situation...I find the MG 151 to be a lot more representative of a 20mm round in it's effects on air planes.
Hope you guys get what you want, and the ammo load it spilt into one single type, cause then you'll really start whining. Right now your carry a representation of 3X the historical ammo load in the MG 151. The Hispano is carry 2X using the combined method.
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SageFin, what you describe has been done, over and over, and can be found in past threads.
Grunherz, {Heavily Edited } Learn a little bit about science and engineering, and then come back and talk about the issue. {Heavily Edited}
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-13-2001).]
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What did the IJN put in their Type 99-2 cannon? They do almost as much damage as the Hispano, yet their kinetic energy and velocity are the lowest of all 20mm in AH(bar MG FF).
What did the Soviets use in the ShVAK/B-20? They do the same damage as the MG 151/20.
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If you want I can post the data for the A/C loadouts for the MG-131 and 151. I have a book that lists what werew loaded and what porportion of ammo was used. I will post the info later tonight. Hail Naudet I have moved to here and booted FA, send me an email sometime, I have a new address.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
SageFin, what you describe has been done, over and over, and can be found in past threads.
Grunherz, once again your spewing senseless roadkill that has no basis in reality. This issue has been went over time and again, with people like Wells, Hooligan, Juzz, Myself and others providing in depth historical facts, in game testing, and in depth calculations to prove what is going on. All we hear from you is "ITS NOT FAIR, I DON'T LIKE IT SO ITS GOTTA BE BROKE !!!" like a screaming whining little spoiled brat. Learn a little bit about science and engineering, and then come back and talk about the issue. Until then just shut up.
...and it will be done until someone wakes up and downtunes Hispanos AT capability.
Its pure bull that you can kill tank from ahead with Hispanos, when not even tank guns werent necessarily able to do that.
Hispano is better in power than MG151/20, but also more unreliable (which isn't modelled, of course), but yet I have seen no proofs of it being that much better or actually killing half dozen tanks in a flight.
So theres clear unbalancing maker which makes tankers life a pure hell with these '200' chogs.
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Fishu, earlier in the thread I never said one word about the hispano's.
You want to squeak about the hispano's, squeak directly to Pyro. The comparitive strength of the hispano versus the MG151, in regards to aircraft lethality, has long been an item of debate on the board with very strong proof that it is correct in AH in comparison to hard scientific data. However you are probably correct on its ability in regards to tank killing. But talk to Pyro about that.
I simply said that the mine shells looked like they were included in the MG151/20 loadout, and Grunherz had to jump in and tell me I was wrong, again without any proof or data or ANYTHING. When many of the people here have shown otherwise. His basis is one purely of speculation and how he thinks it should be, not on any facts, figures, or data.
So I got pissed off and posted in anger. I was wrong, in how I approached my reply, but considering the name calling and other insults I have taken from Grunherz in the past, I don't feel bad about how I responded.
I edited my post to keep down the rhetoric on the board, and I ask you too do the same. If not, I really don't care anymore.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-13-2001).]
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A few more comments:
30mm MMK 108 useless against armour - used M-Geschoss which had NO AP performance.
20mm Hispano HE around 11-12g HE content. 20mm MG 151 M-Geschoss around 18-20g HE. Hispano muzzle energy = 50,000 kj, MG151 ME = 29,000 kj.
IJN Type 99-2 often underrated: 128g at 750 m/sec = 36,000 kj.
ShVAK 97g at 860 m/s = 36,000 kj.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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juzz, do a search I have posted a Bunch of data on Japanese 20mm canons, the Japanese used almost all HEI and those rounds were almost the same size as the 20mm hispanos although with more HEI filling, as a result of this and the fact that the Japanese used almost all HEI rounds in their ammo load out's, the type 99 hits very hard as it should, it is however harder to hit with than the Hispanos do to the poorer MV of the type 99, but at 400 yards what does it matter..
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-13-2001).]
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Dinger and Hooligan did quantitative lethality tests, and they showed that lethality of the Hispano (per round) is only 14% higher than MG 151/20.
If you consider that the Hispano has 70% greater kinetic energy, the advantage is too small. So something more than kinetic energy is giving the Mauser a great boost.
What is this something? Clearly it is the HE charge. MG 151/20 in AH is getting far more power from HE than the Hispano, as it should.
(And I still don't think 20 mm cannons should be exploding Panzer IV.)
{And I also think we should have AP and HE rounds modeled seperately, with the user able to select from the various historically valid loadouts, including mixed loadouts.)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-13-2001).]
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<off topic>
Pst. Brady, are those 350kb signature images *really* necessary?
</off topic>
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brady, change it to a jpeg... bmp is not needed, its just larger.
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Working on it gents I want to make it smaller...ty for your pertinence...
Brady
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Brady try this: http://www.raf303.org/funked/brady234.jpg (http://www.raf303.org/funked/brady234.jpg)
(http://www.raf303.org/funked/brady234.jpg)
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<off topic>
It's just that my ADSL was down for over 4 hours and I was using a modem for that while.. took some eternity to load threads with a big signature image
remembered again why I didnt like them
it looks good.. but, im here to read & post on the board, not look a gallery though.
</off topic>
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Ty very much now i need to make it smaller like 50%, I cant seam to shrink it..
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-13-2001).]
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(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/trash/brady.jpg)
like this, brady?
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Brady, the Japanese did have AP loadings (although I don't know what the typical mix would be).
The Ho-5 had an odd mix of loadings. The AP weighed around 115-120g, but the HEI only 80g - and it wasn't an M-Geschoss.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Fishu, TY very much I will redo my signature asap (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mr.Williams, yes i am aware of the AP ammo but it was the tracer that was AP/tracer,and do to the japanese docterian behind their ammo usage it stands to reason that a larger percentage of the chain would of been HEI shells. this is in reference to the type 99's
As far as the Ho-5 ,which has yet to added to the game, is concerned :
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcFEIvGDz1ZG0GhX9ayiXfg1eGXdqepKDtZEfGL97yr8D955E9i3hceHOcJp2)
Just what is a M-Geschoss, I mean by definition? that is not what I am looking at type wise in that cross section?
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-14-2001).]
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Better?
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-14-2001).]
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The Ho-5 HE projectiles had a better charge/weight ratio than most, but I have some sectioned M-Geschoss in my collection and the projectile body thickness is half or less of that shown above.
The technical difference is that in an M-Geschoss the projectile is formed by drawing (forcibly pressing to shape in several stages in the same way as cartridge cases) rather than drilling out a solid projectile. This enables the projectile body to be much thinner and lighter. I'll post a pic if you like.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm)
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Verm ur right ive been an bellybutton to you and I apologize for that. And you are also correct in that I dont often look at things with enough depth. Can you tell me what kind of tests were done on 151 vs Hispano to show what kind of ammo is being used? Was it firing at planes? At tanks? Or buildings? were they done in the MA, TA, or offline? Which version of AH were they last performed in? Were they replicated by others? Were
they done by people who would have an interest in seeing the test come out in a certain way, ie ppl who often express opinions that AH is infallible?
And one last question do you think the test discussed in this topic is valid?
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To this day I have yet to see a single person post even an educated guess of explosive energy's effect on the structural integrity of an airplane as compared to that caused by kinetic energy. IIRC once someone calculated the amount of explosive energy from the amount of HE found in a 13mm explosive machinegun shell. That was that.
We need to ratify the difference between explosive and kinetic energies in what comes to damaging an aircraft. (Well, actually, the developers need to do that but of course it is done already and what we are having here is mere unnecessary speculation and discussion.)
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SageFIN
"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
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"Well, actually, the developers need to do that but of course it is done already and what we are having here is mere unnecessary speculation and discussion."
EXACTLY. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Grunherz, the like Funked said earlier, the tests were conducted by Hooligan and Dingy.
If I remember correctly they were done back in either 1.02 or 1.03 (but I could be wrong) and they were done for most if not all of the primary guns in AH.
But you should remember there hasn't been any changes to the guns in AH since then. Except the Hispanos were turned down a little bit in one revision, and dispersion was changed in another (this wouldn't have any effect for our purposes however in regards to comparitive lethality since its usually done at close range).
If I remember right, it was done offline by firing at hangers and counting the number of shells it takes to destroy the building. And I also believe that Hooligan and Dingy did the tests seperately, and their results confirmed one another. I think maybe Juzz did some testing too, but its been quite some time ago.
Are there ways to potentially improve the tests? Sure.
1.) You could do them in the TA instead of offline, but I don't think it would have any effect, since your looking to compare each type of gun to each other, under the same testing conditions. ie comparitive lethality.
2.) You could do them by firing at a specific aircraft part (instead of a hanger) for instance the wing or tail of a B-17. This potentially could show some differences than earlier tests, since I remember Pyro a long time ago stating that Aces High had 3 different kinds of targets (from my memory) soft, hard, and armor. He would have to confirm that to be sure though. The biggest problem is that you would have to do these tests in the Training Arena with a second player, and they would have to be repeated many times with the same gun to remove variability and error (at least 10 times each gun or maybe more). In other words its going to take a long time, and two people.
3.) You could conduct the tests at different ranges to see what effect the drop off in kinetic energy is causing, for instance at 50, 300, and 500 yards. This will be difficult to do however as you must insure that your test setup, insures a 100% hit rate of whatever target you are shooting at.
And then you could begin to combine all these concepts into a single test where you fire at hangers and plane parts, from three different distances, all while online.
Also it would have to be done with all the different guns. From the MG/FF, MG151/20, Mk108, M2 Hispano (English & American if you want to get technical), ShVak, NS-37, B-20 (should be same as ShVak, but to be technically complete it should be done), Type 99-1 , Type 99-2, and those are just the cannons. The Machine Guns add a whole lot more.
Plus you have to plan your testing regime out ahead of time, pay extreme attention to detail while conducting such tests, and keep meticulous notes and data entries.
So yes, the tests could be redone with the current version, and could theoretically have an improved methodology. But we are talking about a huge time and effort investment.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Mr. Williams, Ty for clarifying that for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-14-2001).]
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<punt>
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micro-punt:
Dinger and Hooligan did quantitative lethality tests, and they showed that lethality of the Hispano (per round) is only 14% higher than MG 151/20.
If you consider that the Hispano has 70% greater kinetic energy, the advantage is too small. So something more than kinetic energy is giving the Mauser a great boost.
What is this something? Clearly it is the HE charge. MG 151/20 in AH is getting far more power from HE than the Hispano, as it should.
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Just a quote from 'the Lufftwaffe fighter force:a veiw from the cockpit' by adolf galland et al, by david isby.
'anti-tank missions'
'it was apparent that ordinary ground attack units were not able to destroy enough tanks with their guns,cannons and bombs,but the special anti-tank units with armour piercing cannon and special anti-tank rockets were very successfull.'
realise it says 'destroy ENOUGH tanks' not 'destroy any tanks' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
notice the statement 'VERY SUCCESSFULL'????
jesus people stop argueing that mausers cant kill tanks in RL so they ok in AH.
ITS BS AND YOU KNOW IT IS.
heres some more for you....
'The attacks with armour piercing cannon were conducted like ordinary strafing missions.To ensure hits,the pilots had to approach as close as possible.The best range was 100-150 yards.The gunnery run had to be very even and calm, and the direction of approach was determined by the ground situation and with the 3cm and 37mm weapons aimed at vital points on the tanks'
mmm we cant seem to hurt anywhere on a tank....
but not only this, if we arent going to get the ammunition, then i demand we get some of these......(same book)...
'it was better to use large formations which carried a great number of containers of 4kg hollow charge armour piercing bombs, which can be dropped from halfway outside the effective anti-aircraft fire.'
when can we have these? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This books information was compiled from interveiws/interrogations conducted by the USAAF just after the war and were intended for the use of the USAAF.They were written by professionals for professionals.there is no room in these accounts for stories, just facts on strategies etc.
Vermillion i dont understand why you dont agree the mausers are screwed for tank killing and the hispanos are just too easy to kill with.
I think you just like to be devils advocate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
HTC give us what the LW had plz.
ok rant over (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 03-28-2001).]