Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Seeker on March 13, 2001, 04:00:00 AM
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I'm directing this to the Luftwobbles as they seem to be the best informed and most vociferous clique in AH, but it could equally apply to others.
I've been reading that the Me109 had no internal trim controls, while the Fw series had electric tail trimming meaning that the plane didn't need constant triming due to speed changes.
I find it odd the heated arguments over 5 to 15 miles an hour top speed when this issue's ignored.
Shouldn't trim be set before take off in the 109, and the Fw have auto elevator trim as the only option? After all, it seems that we're all after realism in plane modeling, if not in game play; and it strikes me as odd that planes such as the 109 have cockpit trim. Wasn't that one of the great claims of the Mustang, that it was one of the first, if not the first to have cockpit trim?
If the Luftwaffe are happy with modified trim why aren't they happy with modified engine performance?
(For what it's worth I think the Spit had only tail trim, not alerion trim, but hopefully some one who really knows will put me right).
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Ok, I can't speak for the Allied planes ,because I have no idea, but the 109 did have elevator trim and that is it. It had no rudder trim which meant that the pilots legs became fatigued on long flights. Overall, i think the importance of trim is overmagnified in flight sims. Yes, on long cross country flights it saved a great deal of pilot workload, but it did not make the difference in combat that some would have you believe it did. i.e. I know how to trim my aircraft so I am superior. Yes, a properly trimmed aircraft with less yaw will bleed less E, but I really don't think it was the deciding factor that it has been made out to be.
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Hi!
Raubvolgel is right. As well as that Andy Bush stated on this board that the trimming of an airplane has as much effect on the outcoming of a dogfight as the color of the pilots hair. At least in RL.
Additionally the trimming in this Sim doesnt work the way trimming works in RL since the Joysticks here even dont work as the sticks in RL - at least when it comes to what trimming is used for to counter (Joysticks always spring back to the center - FF too).
So after all, flying an untrimmed plane may be uncomfortable, but prolly wont change the outcome of a fight.
Hope this helps...
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CU
Purzel
VMF 111 =Devil Dogs= (http://www.devildogs.com)
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"Find the enemy and shoot him down, everything else is nonsense!"
M. von Richthofen
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I remember reading about a german 109 pilot who used to trim "nose high".
He had to apply stick pressure for level flight, but put up with that since his trimming would allow faster turning.
In other words: trimming was more important to RL pilots than you guys think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Effdub
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THe Me109 had cockpit controlled trim tabs. And u really need them, cause this bird has big torque and comprasion probs.
But the FW190 had no aileron or rudder trim from inside the cockpit. The FW190 had only the elevator trimmer to trim it out for climb or dive. Every pilot that ever flew a FW190 found out that it needed no retrimming in the air, cause the torque and or speed effects were so small that the could be forgot. Only when the ground crew did a real bad job on the trim tabs, or someone touched the tabs violently before take-off the FW190 got any probs. Otherwise if in the initial test of a new plane the tabs were ajusted an the plane could be flew without any retrimming.
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To the best of my knowledge, the Spitfire only had Elevator trim and that had to be set on the ground. There was no "in cockpit" trimming in the Spit.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Spitfire had adjustable rudder and elevator trim tabs. Aileron trim was set at the factory by bending the ailerons.
The two German fighters had adjustable tailplane incidence. Rudder and aileron trim tabs were fixed and could only be adjusted on the ground.
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There is also another issue, the Kommandogeraet.
Quite a few planes did not enjoy the benefits of such a device.
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Yeah, like the Arado...
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Originally posted by Glunz:
There is also another issue, the Kommandogeraet.
Quite a few planes did not enjoy the benefits of such a device.
Are you implying that planes other than 190 had this device or something in similar too?
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SageFIN
"I think IŽll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you donŽt
believe in Gosh too, youŽll be darned to heck."
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Keep in mind there nearly every plane had at the minimum, an elevator trim wheel. Most also had rudder trim.
All trim does is keep the stick in a certain position so the pilot doesn't have to apply pressure. For instance, pull back on the stick slightly to set a climb rate. You would then apply elevator trim till the stick remained where you wanted it until you no longer had to hold it there.
It won't increase turn rate by any large means, but it would make it easier on the pilot to pull back because less stick force would be required.
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Originally posted by SageFIN:
Are you implying that planes other than 190 had this device or something in similar too?
No, he is implying just the opposite (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) the Fw190 was the only plane that had this device in WWII.
BTW the Fw190 suffers BIG changes on stability as speed changes fast...I've never said a word because trims are there to be used, but I doubt that the real 190 had so much change of attitudes, given that it was so stable, according with most sources...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The Kommandogerat provided control for:
Manifold pressure(MAP)
Engine speed/prop pitch(RPM)
Fuel mixture
Ignition timing
Supercharger gear ratio
All with one "power" lever in the cockpit.
The huge, complex difference with most other planes is that they had one lever each for MAP and RPM, and then the rest of that stuff was automatic, but with manual options too.
Big, fat, hairy deal.
I guess Luftwaffe pilots could only grasp the concept of "push this here lever forward to go fasta" rather than manage their engines in the proper, Allied opportunist, way... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
PS: About Kommandogerat; don't take my word for it, read what the NACA had to say about it here (http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-192/).
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Originally posted by juzz:
I guess Luftwaffe pilots could only grasp the concept of "push this here lever forward to go fasta" rather than manage their engines in the proper, Allied opportunist, way... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wrong, LW pilots had to actually pull the lever to go faster. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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See what I mean? They even got that wrong! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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S!
About the trim issue.Bf109 had only elevator trim and the aileron trims were adjusted on ground after pilot's wishes.Some late war 109's had rudder trim(with the new rudder structure).
Another urban legend..in 109 U don't PULL the lever back,but PUSH it forward to increase the throttle.Been in the real deal,so knowing what I am talking about.The case of pulling the lever was in Fiat G.50,one to mention.
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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R4M, i think ur are right the Fw190 suffers to strong changes in stability in AH.
In real life it must have been wonderful stable if u could handle it so easy without any incockpit aileron and rudder trim.
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The AH developers did right to add trimming to the game. This increases the "workload" of a pilot, making flying these planes more interesting. And remember, they said it's not reality the way they did it, it's just an approach to bring it into the game. How do you want to model realistic trimming if not everyone is using rudder pedals but a keyboard for rudder control ?
Don't forget another detail: the 109, for example, had a wheel to lower or raise the flaps while the 190 had hydraulic flaps. Imagine a wheel beside your keyboard to be turned several times to bring your flaps into the position a single hit onto the keyboard does now. And this inmidst a hot combat...
Since I never flew a WWII aircraft and I never will, I can't tell you which impact trimming has/had in reality. But I've read something from pilots who flew those planes in WWII or thereafter. E.g. one P47 pilot assumed that the Me109 he shot was piloted by a rookie, because the plane wasn't trimmed properly. Display pilot Dave Southwood flying "Black 6" (a restored Me109G-2) wrote:
"Pitch trim is achieved by a variable incidence tailplane, but rudder and aileron trimming are only possible on the ground via fixed tabs"
"Yaw control in the 109 is interesting and not so straightforward as pitch and roll control. The directional or weathercock stability is low, and marked slipball excursions occur with any changes of speed or power. Also , there is a noticable yaw to the right when pulling up for looping manoeuvres, presumely due to the gyroscopic effect of the propeller, and the ailerons induce a moderate adverse yaw (a yaw to the right when left aileron applied and vice versa). The rudder force to centralise the slipball is low, but constantly changing rudder inputs are required during manoeuvres. However, if the slipball is not kept central, the sideforce on the pilot is not uncomfortable and no real handling problems occur, although it looks untidy in a display. For example, at the top of a left wing-over it feels quite unnatural to be cross-controlled with left aileron and a large amount of right rudder.
This low directional stability makes it hard work to fly the aircraft well although, fortunately, there are safety implications. However it must have made accurate tracking for a gun's 'kill' very difficult,and I suspect that many 109 kills were made at very close range. It also says a great deal about the shooting skills of the Luftwaffe aces. Another problem is the lack of a cockpit adjustable rudder trimmer. The fixed tab is set so that the rudder is in trim in the cruise thus reducing footloads during long transit flights. However, for all other airspeed and power combinations a rudder force must be applied. This is an annoying feature but thankfully the rudder forces are quite low."
We all know the statistics of Erich Hartmann and Hans-Joachim Marseille...
I conclude from these facts that trimming wasn't decisive in combat concerning the handling of the fighter but reduced the workload of the pilot when cruising, keeping the pilot fit.
Hope, I've helped you a little bit.
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Written by Flitze
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Thanks for some very reasoned responses.
I'm not sure how important trimming is/was in A to A, although I imagine it could potentialy have a large effect in a protracted engagement in an "E" fighter. Poor trimming leading to excessive E loss.
However I've read several times, from sources that I certainly trust that it was vital for dive bombing. One Jug pilot's been quoted as saying that he'd "pre-trim" the plane prior to entering the dive for the pull out speed, knowing that he'd be very near to black out. The same pilot also said that at least on one occasion one of the pilots in his group was forced to fly back to base using trim as control after battle damage (the pilot headed out to sea and bailed over base). Wasn't the Stuka also fitted with "auto trim" to enable a pull up by a blacked out pilot?
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Spits always has rudder and elevator trim...
the reason Me109 guys trimmed excessive nose up was to gain the advantage when bounced they had a quicker pitch up than the person doing the bounce..also tended to cause an overshoot condition......