Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Soviet on December 02, 2001, 07:23:00 PM
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[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Soviet ]
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I think they usually added the Iron Cross, rather than the Swastikas on militaty equipment. Anyone confirm this?
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AH is a game that is played in amny different nations, including Germany. Having swastikas is a big no-no for games in Germany.
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[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Soviet ]
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Why not an option to turn them on or off. I think Janes WW2 Fighters had this, every CD that shipped had the swastikas in it but those shipped to sensitive countries had the swastika turned off.
I cant see any reason for HTC to do the same.
PS make it impossible to capture swastikas in films or screens, if you are worried about that.
My opinion is that LW planes just dont look right ithout them on the tail.
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not just about senstivities its against the law.
I dont see any real need for them.
We got enough folks in here throwing around the term "nazi" imagine what would happen if the plane with the big swastika on it shoots down some morons p51?
I can almost hear seeker now.....
besides this aint ww2 its a game anything that distracts us from havin fun is BS.
and a swastika would.......
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I agree that the German equipment looks sort of funny without the proper markings.
I also understand HTC's legal obligations to its German customers though, so I guess it's just sort of something that they don't have much choice over.
J_A_B
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Some people might be offended by it (I'm not one of them), but then those that would be offended probably don't fly any of the LW planes anyway (even without it). If the symbol bothers you or the history bothers you or whatever...what are you doing flying a WW2 sim? If you go to the local hobby shop and pick up a plastic 109 model, it'll have swastikas on the decal sheet. But, like Karnak and Wotan said, I guess it's illegal in Germany.
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German law would require banning AH there if Nazi symbols were displayed. There are no laws I'm aware of that would do the same over the Japanese national symbol(nor is there the political comparison you attempt to make - the "Rising Sun" would be a closer comparison). The "meatball" is more akin to the German cross.
Even here in the U.S., where people ARE allowed to display that tasteless and offensive symbol in public (and not even have to use the excuse of "game immersion"), there is a generation of heros (ever dwindling) that fought the tyranny it represented and would probably be ashamed of descendents who argued for it's use, no matter what the reasoning behind the argument.
Most players who make a big deal of wanting swatikas displayed in games and other public forums (often under the guise of "added realism")quite often are, themselves, vulgar and immature individuals with no real sense of propriety. Here's hoping that you, Soviet, are an exception to that and are merely unaware of the sensible reason behind not including the display of the swastika in a game that shouldn't have anything incorporated into it's design that many would find offensive.
Originally posted by Soviet:
let me guess it's too offensive for some? I find the Japanese red dot offense, they bombed our harbor and strafed civilians after all GET IT AWAY GET IT AWAY i demand it's removal :rolleyes:
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[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Soviet ]
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Why or how ... do you feel "strange" flying without them?
Perhaps you're talking about making screenshots later. I suppose you could use a photo editor and insert swastikas.
Maybe your squad likes to fly close formation and admire each other's swast ... errrr .... planes.
Either way ....
I'm worried about you, man.
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I honestly don't see the need for them, political sensativities (and laws to) aside. As far as I know, the swastikas were only on the tail... and you can't SEE it anyway, even if it were on there. And it isn't like a little swastika on the tail is gonna make a huge difference when you are shooting someone down (which is practically the only time you'd see it anyway). It would have no impact at all on gameplay, so why even bother?
As far as I'm concerned, the 190 and 109 look normal without it, so I can't see any purpose in adding it.
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I'd prefer my plane without one... for one, I don't like the idea of having a swastika on my aircraft, and two, it just feeds the 'you are all nazis!' people. The iron cross means the country, the swastika means the political system... and a whole bunch of nasty toejam... therein lies the difference.
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"I cant see any reason for HTC to do the same."
Why would HTC expend any amount of effort for something so contoversial just to make it a user option? I'd rather have working landing hook graphics or the historically correct colors on the landing gear struts.
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Exactly... or they could spend that time on a choice of a couple different paint jobs for each aircraft ( :) gotta sneak that in where I can), or even just taking another pass over some of the first aircraft cockpits/textures.
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With or without the Swastikas every idiotic Historically challenged person calls the Luftwaffe "those nazi planes".
I'm up for selecting whether to put or not the Swastika on an optional basis on the client side, but it's HTCs decision and well you know, won't say anything about it again.
Denying history is plainly moronic it happened, it's past, we know it did , and we know what it stood for, but for me ,it's just symbol that adds to the historical Look of the aircraft, as if were, if everything was offensive then the Japanese would not have been allowed to speak their language nor would the Germans.
Whatever they do,whatever action they take be certain that it would not change either way or the form the Illiterate look at German Air Force aircraft,nor will they admire,better respect, what they did in times of war even, though they fought not for the "right side"(in context of looking what is morally wrong or right not as a amateur historian)and gave it all to protect their homeland. So they're simply reduced to the losers and the bad guys who shot at grandpa.
back to square one...
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The swastika is still used today as a symbol of hate. It has a modern connotation, and has not yet been limited to the pages of history. There's no need for such a symbol in a game we enjoy. Comparing it to other symbols of axis powers is not valid for this reason.
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We fly planes in this game that were flown by Germany, Japan, Italy, the U.S., Russia, and G.B. Ok, that's great. Now, ladt time I checked, this was a historically based flightsim, not a recreation of WW2 battles, campaigns, and missions. We're here to have fun with planes that most of us will never have the opprotunity to fly IRL. Another thing, there are younger people on here whose parents I don't think would much like it if we had swastikas on all the German planes.
To put it simply, what profound impact would it have on gameplay if we added swastikas to the german aircraft? Nothing other than to eliminate a country from our user base.
My two pesos.
-Chris-
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Who cares about nazi swastikas, give FAF Me109G2 its correct 1918 swastika :)
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What Wotan and Westy said. (Hey, at least I'm consistant!)
Plus, I think adding swatstika's to German planes would attract a player type even Grun would be uncomfortable with.
Remember this: according to Hitech's interview, we'll eventualy have an FPS element in AH. That's a whole different social group with a different social dynamic.
I can't wait for the first "my storm trooper is under modelled!" whine......
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Seek so not worry we already have them,the thing is thier dormant. :rolleyes:
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Dormant? Who are you trying to kid? :)
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Is it really going to hurt you to see a swastika? I don't understand some peoples objection to it. Pretty soon we will have to ban the US marking on planes as it stands for a country of might and global power. I guess I look into it from a historical perspective, do I care they are not on there? Nope, do I care if they are on their? Nope.
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Guys I'm pretty sure it is a legal issue. HTC want to do business in Germany, so no swastikas. I think even having the option to turn them on would make AH illegal in Germany. They'd need to produce a special version for Germans to download. Probably not worth the time and effort. Just like no cigarette advertising on some race cars in America. Every country has their silly laws.
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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If this game were wrapped more tihtly with history I would expect to see swastikas. In that it isn't, we don't.
I don't see a problem.
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"Is it really going to hurt you to see a swastika?"
Is it going to hurt anyone NOT to see it. Doesn it effect gameplay? Easy answer. No.
The basic simple fact is the swastika is a universally hated political and ideological symbol. It is not an military or national insignia like the symbols used on the wings and fuselage of German (as did other countries) aircraft. It was the standard for the Nazi party <spits on ground after even writing that name> .
Good thing HTC isn't about to change thier stance on this one.
Westy
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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Actually the swastika is a bit older than the
nazi-parti.
Here in Denmark at the gate to Carlsberg(you know beer),there is a couple of swastikas carved in stone,,,,,,,,in india there`S HOTEL
with a swastikashaped swimmingpool.
The sign is an old symbol(sun ithink),,,,,,,,,but most people
don`t no that.
I should be offended by it,my father was in KZ-camp,,,,,,,,,,im not,couse to ad it on the tailplane is historical correct nevertheless,,,,,,,,,,and we are all tought
to remember the history,,,right?
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Most saddest thing in those swastika things is that I never see in games that real FAF insignia :(
Really sad..
Just because that austrian guy had to choose similar item in the flag and later on some law makers wants to forget whole nazi thing as if it never existed and is bad to even talk about.
Meanwhile also banning resembling items........ !
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Fishu, I don't understand...what is wrong with the current FAF insignia in the 109G-2 featured in AH. :confused:
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1Wmaker1
(http://koti.mbnet.fi/~paulusk/Lelv34.jpg)
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: Wmaker ]
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Arlo
You are either a complete idiot, or just uneducated. Your remarks about people wanting the nazi symbol is plain stupid. You must suffer from paranoia and a lack of knowledge. If you have a such a big problem with the swastika, you better have your head examined.
Im no nazi, my grandparents where killed by them. and my country was invaded by them.
I you judge people who express their wish to have the swastika on planes, you are no better than people who support nazism and other forms of goverment rule that use sensurship as a way to control people.
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Mmmmmmmright ..... :rolleyes:
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well said arlo :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Wmaker:
Fishu, I don't understand...what is wrong with the current FAF insignia in the 109G-2 featured in AH. :confused:
Yeah, that's my question too. :)
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Opss.. mistake :)
Just that I messed it up with few other games.
Forget AH from the list.. just annoys me in general that in many games its not represented right.
IL-2 doesn't :( *very sad*
I haven't played AH for while and im furious due to other games not having it represented right.. you see :>
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Swastikas are a major offence in Germany.
Its laid out in §86a StGB German Criminal Code.
Displaying, distributing or owning of Swastikas or other insignias, uniforms or greetings related to the NSDAP or its orgnisations will be punished with prison up to 3 years or a fee.
(This is of course the short form :rolleyes :)
This is written and performed law in Germany. Nowadays the sentences are going to the upper limit.
Of course you dont have to erase ths dirt from historic pictures or films, but AcesHigh is not a program for education or science.
If in AH would be Swastikas on the planes or in future troopers of the WaffenSS, owning the game would be criminal for Germans.
It wouldn't be a big problem, as long the police do not find a oil painting of Adolf on the wall :D For that you go directly to prison and not over parole. No joke.
It would be impossible to make homepages for german squads. The hyperlink to HTC would be enough to rise an investigation on you.
I am very glad, that HTC shows so much respect for our situation. <S>
Tofri
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No ... you're doing fine. Let's have some more of your "wis-dumb". :D
Originally posted by Vphenix:
well said arlo :rolleyes:
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Vphenix saz,"If you have a such a big problem with the swastika, you better have your head examined.
Im no nazi, my grandparents where killed by them. and my country was invaded by them."
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Tofri,
That sounds scary and crazy..
phew..
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Funked,
Next time you are down town, go by the Mint and look at the old cast iron lampposts on the sidewalk in front.
They have swastikas cast in all around the base.
If anyone noticed those posts would be gone in a heart beat, good thing most americans don't have amazing powers of observation.
F.
PS. I only see that swastikas in AH would be doing more harm than good.
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It wouldn't be a big problem, as long the police do not find a oil painting of Adolf on the wall <biggrin.gif> For that you go directly to prison and not over parole. No joke.
Really scary. When germany is really going to be free country? Isn't this banning and cersorship just what national socialists did?
people should learn from history :( not to close their eyes.
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There is always a "slight" difference between written law and spoken law.
This act is used as a useful "weapon" against such idiots, who run around beating up foreigners. They act in groups and as in every modern justice you have to prove each individual, what he has done.
But with these laws §86 or §130 (Volksverhetzung : this is disparagement of other groups and/or the denial of the nazi crimes) you can do something against them.
These laws are part of the concept of the "wehrhafte Demokratie" (fortified democracy)
In the Weimarer Republik (the time in Germany between WWI and WWII) every kind and form of political agitation was allowed. Even if they declared to destroy the state.
This led to a street war between the paramilitary organisations of the nazis, communists and others (royalists, revanchists...). In the end the democracy was rotten and powerless.
What than happened everyone knows, I hope.
After WWII everyone knew, that a democracy must be strong enough to protect itself.
So they laid down in the constitution, that the state has the rights to protect himself, against persons or groups which want to destroy the democracy, human rights or individual personal rights.
AND every person has the right to protect the constitution against the government. (In extreme it means, you are allowed to kill the government, if they install a dictatoreship hehe).
This worked very well up to now.
About censorship, illo.
I agree with you completely. The banning of Mein Kampf or other books and films is TMO a stupid idea. If you really want them, you get them (a hooray on online-shopping) .
There are many pros and many cons for this issue, but in the end we now have a stable and living democracy. And that is absolutely good.
ToFri
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I donīt think you can call banning of NS Insignia, the swastika or the SS Runes in Germany a censorship. Maybe for US citizens who are used to totally freedom of speech.
Displaying those insignia is simply against §86 and the few exceptions (art, documentary, education) are what I said - exceptions.
Another problem is that the swastika - whatever it ment in ancient times or whatever it means in other cultural regions of the world - is still a symbol for racial motivated hate, intolerance, borderless quest for power and some of the most awful crimes ever commited by human beings. And to make it worse the spirit of it is still running around here (especially in the eastern part where the change only brought unemployment and social descend).
And finally - the international media (and of course our own media dominated by liberal to leftist companies) still watch out for every single happening in connection with Neo-Nazis to bring it out on the first page. So the german government is trying to push back the spirit and the signs to prevent a loss of prestige for Germany. Unfortunately they go too far and installed a sick self-masochism when it comes to the topic of 1933-45.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: csThor ]
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Aren't the US and Germany in agreement on the importance of symboligy?
In Germany, symboligy is recognised as so important, you may not have swatstikas.
In USA, symboligy is recognised as so important, you may not desacrate the flag.
Is this not two sides of the same coin?
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Seeker, no laws have been passed banning the desecration of the U.S. flag ... yet. Yep, Americans tend to feel pretty strongly about freedom of speech. Even the freedom of idiots and buttheads. ;)
Oh .... and trying to make this a "censorship vs freedom" issue doesn't wash. Owners of businesses have the same rights as their customers and may reserve the right to not serve anyone (and probably would do so if that someone offended the other customers). Not unlike the store where the owner asks you to leave for not wearing shoes or wearing a shirt with an offensive slogan or symbol on it. Too bad. There is no prejudice involved, just good business practices. Get over it. :D
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Arlo ]