Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: funked on October 31, 2000, 06:55:00 PM
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(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/fta/nf104-1.jpg)
Well the guy who designed it was alive during WW2.
And like all US fighters, it was based on the Fw 190.
The best part is that the Luftwaffles have no idea how to fly it!
It clearly belongs here! Bring the F-104 to AH!!!
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Get it right funked. F-104 was really based on the Fi 103 - it is after all a "missile with a man in it".
You're right about one thing though; even the RL Luftwaffe had no idea how to fly it - they crashed 270 of them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
But in AH they can ask Andy Bush how to fly it, damn. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Japanese markings?
(http://www.totavia.com/imagearchive/aviapix/PostWW2/Fighters/US-VietnamEra/F104-Starfighter/DH-f1043.jpg)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Yesss please!!!
The G version (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Gotta be Italian markings.
It'd provide great high-alt cap for the 205s, plus in med scenarios it'd really solve the axis inability to compete with the allies above 25k.
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Dammit Juzz... exactly what I was thinking. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Here are two jets...an F-4C and a F-104G...this photo was taken near Luke AFB, Arizona.
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/F104_69th.jpg)
The 104 was used to teach German pilots...and is the aircraft used in the film, The Right Stuff.
I have flown both of these actual aircraft.
Andy
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Didn't Hartmann fly 104's with the GAF after he finally got out of Soviet internment?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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The spooky thing is this post actually seems serious
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by the way Andy,
how did that big ugly flying turd handle?
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Pyro-I'm not sure if Hartmann flew the F-104, but I know he flew F-86 Sabres after he was released.He was in the post war Luftwaffe until 1967 or 68, so he very well might have flown the 104. Have a question for you WW2 buffs: Do you think it was right that the Allies turned him over to the Soviets after the war? No right or wrong answer, just wanted to see what others thought about it.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Guess he shoulda been friends with Klaus Barbie, eh? Kind of ironic...
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Animal
The F-4?
Just fine.
Andy
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Didn't Hartmann fly 104's with the GAF after he finally got out of Soviet internment?
Maybe, I found this tidbit:
225 Sabre Mk 6s were supplied to the West German Luftwaffe, and the type became the primary day fighter of the newly formed German air arm. They had been preceded in Luftwaffe service by Sabre Mk 5s, which had served primarily in training roles in anticipation of the arrival of the Mk 6s. The first operational unit was Jagdgeschwader 71 "Richthofen", initially commanded by Major Erich Hartmann, highest-scoring ace of all times (352 kills during World War 2). He accepted the first of the unit's Sabre Mk 6s on June 6, 1959. The Mk 6s also served with Jagdgeschwadern 72 and 73. The Luftwaffe Sabres usually operated in the air-to-air mode, although they were occasionally equipped with underwing air-to-ground ordinance. In service, many Luftwaffe Sabres were modified to become Sidewinder-capable. JG 71 converted to the F-104G Starfighter in 1964, and the other two wings converted to the Fiat G-91R in 1964/66 and became light attack units.
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Well, Hartmann spent 10 1/2 years in captivity, so that would put him back in Germany by probably about 1958 at the latest... several years before conversion to Sabres.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Yeah Animal, don't talk about the F-4 like that!
Hartmann did fly 104's. He got in a bit of trouble because he felt that the Luftwaffe was not ready for them, that they were having enough trouble flying the F-84's and F-86's that they already had. He wanted something not quite as advanced as the 104.
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Hartmann wasCO of JG71 when they converted to the F104 according to biography..
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I have a book right here, just written by me yesterday, that has a scan which irefutably shows that F-104 was heavily influenced by the 1917 Albatros C.V/17
(http://sierrascale.hypermart.net/albc5.jpg)
This occured after the designer saw the movie "The Blue Max" and said, "MAN!, If only we could put a GE afterburner on one of those babies!"
-Westy
;-)
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Funked the germans were probably bigger operators of the 104 then the US. Back to trolling class with you...
I like the brits opinion of it. They sent over a test pilot and he thought it was crap. Course they still had Spit IXs so why wast your time with starfighters.
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Ok, you can have your 104, but I have to have my SA-2 at the same time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I WANT THE f104, but WITH MW50!!!!!
hartman was one of the few withing the german
airforce who was AGAINST the 104 in the LW.
he said, that the f100 would fit much better
in the new LW. it was a to big step from the f86 to the f104 for the LW. btw, no one of the 104 in hartmans JG was ever lost.
the politicans wanted to buy the f104.
was a 100% political decission.
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Habicht
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
"Die Ta 152 war meine Überlebensversicherung in den letzten Tagen des Krieges" OFw Willi Reschke, Ritterkreuzträger, 38 Abschüsse
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 11-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by Animal:
by the way Andy,
how did that big ugly flying turd handle?
Yes, and tell us how the planes flew too.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
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I can hear it now: Damned M61 dweebs!
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Originally posted by Westy:
I have a book right here, just written by me yesterday, that has a scan which irefutably shows that F-104 was heavily influenced by the 1917 Albatros C.V/17
(http://sierrascale.hypermart.net/albc5.jpg)
This occured after the designer saw the movie "The Blue Max" and said, "MAN!, If only we could put a GE afterburner on one of those babies!"
-Westy
;-)
Ummm...yeah, We got the joke the first 3 times.
btw, anyone have an opinion about my earlier post? What are folks' thoughts on the turning over of Hartmann after the war to the Soviets?
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Lucky me, I got to see the pilot of that NF-104 up close and personal at Edwards AFB a couple weeks ago...
(http://www.houseblend.net/edwards/chuck&joe-sm.jpg)
Chuck Yeager and Joe Engle
They opened the show by breaking the sound barrier at 15,000 feet flying F15s in formation. Here's a "photo" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.houseblend.net/edwards/EdwardsFlyby.gif (http://www.houseblend.net/edwards/EdwardsFlyby.gif)
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LuckyDay
"What're you going to do, bleed on me?"
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Was Hartmann back in West Germany by 1957?
That was about the time Yeager was leaving to go back to the War College after nearly getting court marshalled.
Would of been ironic if they had both been in the same area at the same time, and not managed to get in a dogfight.
- Jig
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Originally posted by HABICHT:
the politicans wanted to buy the f104.
was a 100% political decission.
IIRC, it was the finest kind of political decision.
Didn't Lockheed spend huge amounts of bribe money to get that contract?
"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."
-P.J. O’Rourke
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Yanno, the F-104 was the first, and still is the only super-sonic jet to be able to manuver in zero G, and manuver independently on each axis (like a helicopter) while doing so.
The Harrier comes close, but it can't move side to side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So what if they mounted 250lbs thrusters on the nose. It still did it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Space Shuttle can, but only with it's reactor motors (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 11-01-2000).]
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Howabout the thrust vectored technology demonstrators (like the X-31)?
Warning: 4MB Hyperlinks to Mpeg videos...
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/movie/X-31/Medium/EM-0036-05.mpg (http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/movie/X-31/Medium/EM-0036-05.mpg) http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/ movie/X-31/Medium/EM-0036-07.mpg (http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/movie/X-31/Medium/EM-0036-07.mpg)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-01-2000).]
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wow... looks like a Niki.
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Hi
Jigster that was at extremly high altitudes way over 100,000 feet, and would have no use in AH.
......Well wait a second now, just how hi are some of those HQ buffs nowadays? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Jigster...a minor point. I think you are referring to the NF-104 operated by NASA and used for very high altitude work. This aircraft was modified with small 'jet' nozzles for use when the aircraft reached its max altitude. The issue was not one of zero G...instead, it was one of being far enough out of the atmospehere that the normal controls were no longer effective.
I've flown the 104 at zero G (at much lower altitudes, obviously!!) and the aircraft responds the same as any other in that attitude.
I would agree with Hartmann's opinion regarding the readiness of the LW to operate the 104 beginning when it did. They went from a subsonic, non-afterburning, relatively simple avionics air force to a double sonic, state of the art air force much too quickly. The high attrition rate was as much a factor of pilot error and inexperience as it was maintenance error.
Combine that with a heavy dose of 'you can always tell a German but you can't tell him much', and you've got a problem in the making.
It's hard to otherwise explain why no other European air force had the same deadly experience with the aircraft as did the LW.
Andy
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Combine that with a heavy dose of 'you can always tell a German but you can't tell him much', and you've got a problem in the making.
Hehe... damn that is true.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I have a minor point as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It was later turned over to NASA, but the Air Force Aerospace Research Pilots School used them first
From what I gathered from Yeager's autobiography they were indeed using it for zero-G manuvering, but in the way the space capsule reactor motors worked (manuvering in the abscence of air) and not normal "flying" zero-G manuvers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Original purpose (if I remember right) was to counter the pitch up problem at the upper atomosphereic levels when traveling at super-sonic speeds in the 104, and to continue to excert enough pressure on the nose to keep the plane at zero-G for short durration that would allow the pilot to remain at high altitude.
sound right?
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Jigster
That's right!
All of that sounds good to me. Pitch up in the 104 could be pretty sporty and would not be something I would want to try at 100,000'.
Andy
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Whats really bad was Yeager had his worse accident in the NF-104...lost control at 104,000 ft, engine had flamed out as 60,000 (which was normal, he was suppose to dive to spin the turbine RPM's back up and fire it off at 40,000 ft) the plane pitched up, and the reaction jets in the nose didn't help, burned all the peroxide fuel trying to get the nose down.
By now it was in a flat spin, and the turbine RPM's had fallen off and quit turning, leaving no control over the plane.
After 13 turns he punched out (Bud Anderson was in the area that day, in a T-33, playing as an un-offical chase plane, and had encouraged him to get out) and while falling down, the seat, with the rocket engine still smoldering, caught in the chute lines, severing some. It then came through his pressure-suit face plate and ignited the pure oxygen.
Apparently that docter knew what he was doin cause you still can't tell Yeager had been human barbeque. Burnt his whole face up and he lost part of two fingers when he cut his glove off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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And IIRC they cross-cut that scene with a fan dancer in The Right Stuff.
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I envy your time in the 104 Andy. (Actually all your flight time, but the 104 time especially (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) The 104 was my dream plane growing up a a kid, along side WWII aircraft and the A4 "Scooter".
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-02-2000).]
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Sorry Andy I meant the F-104
F-4 is a nice machine
F-104 LOOKS like a flying turd, I wondered how it handle.
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Originally posted by Westy:
.... F-104 was heavily influenced by the 1917 Albatros C.V/17
Maybe so, but I vote no to the F-104 until we get the same cool wood paneling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://members.aol.com/~migeater1/albatross-landing.jpg)
MiG
p.s. Took this at Rhinebeck in early October. If y'all can make it its WELL worth the trip.
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If your turds look more like Starfighters than Phantoms then you need to see a doctor. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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we know we have a medical problem when we start naming our turds "Starfighter" and "Phantom" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Actually my turds look more like the F-117.
After a nasty hangover they can look quite like an A-10
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Jezzz i'm still wondering how they kept the engines from having a flameout at 70k+
i mean ther's not really a whole lot of oxygen to breath for them ..
(think there was a story of a Phantom doing some extreme altitude zoom climb then it had a dual flameout and went up a bit further on a balistic trajectory .. story said they coasted down to some 24k till they could relight)
DW6
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No wonder I don't remember seeing that in The Right Stuff... I kept tryin' to see the fan dancer's tits, and didn't notice Yeager's bailout scenes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Yeah, I didn't see it either till I got a DVD player and went frame-by-frame through the sequence. Right as she starts getting interesting, you can see an F104 shoot up really high. Cross cut to LBJ and the thing sputters and flails, dropping back earthwards, things are looking pretty bad. Back to dancer -is it? could it be? YES!
Punches out over the desert.
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Thanks Mig!!! That is a really nice picture.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-03-2000).]
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a little comment to the "lw lost 270 starfighters"
afaik the f104 was a good-weather high alt interceptor.
The LW wanted an allround fighter (european weather conditions, low alt flight etc.)
afaik the problem was that the f104 had an automatic system that pulled the stick forward when it gained a critical situation (stall?).
In a low "terrain following" flight, this was leathal.
The F104 turned out to be one of the least usable military equipment for the german LW. F.J Strauß (german people know what that mean... ) was responsible for this "investment", and many still think today that not the quality of the F104 was the reason why the LW got it....
There was indeed a joke in germany:
How do you get a F104??
Just buy a ground somewhere and wait...
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Animal ROFL!
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Niklas
>>The LW wanted an allround fighter (european weather conditions, low alt flight etc.)<<
And that's what they got. The G model was a completely redesigned fighter-bomber with all weather intercept capability. The LW used the aircraft in two primary roles...low level nuclear strike and air defense intercept. The German naval air force used the G for maritime strike.
>>afaik the problem was that the f104 had an automatic system that pulled the stick forward when it gained a critical situation (stall?).In a low "terrain following" flight, this was leathal.<<
You are completely misinformed. The system that you describe functioned well as a 'anti-pitch up' warning device. It was not a contributor to the LW high accident rate.
Instead, the LW had more than its share of problems with poor maintenance, pilot error, missions that were flown at low altitude in lousy weather, and routine operations off of short airfields with rudimentary approach aids.
>>The F104 turned out to be one of the least usable military equipment for the german LW.<<
Another piece of BS.
You may argue all day long about the political maneuvers that went on behind the scenes that led to the decision to build the 104, but as far as the jet went...it did what it was supposed to do. Please remember that the LW did not buy 104s from the US...it bought the license to build them in Germany along with the other Consortium members (Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Spain, and Italy.
The 104 was an honest and good aircraft...it just suffered from the misguided and misinformed baloney that some felt the need to spew out.
I flew the jet for four years as a Fighter Weapons instructor and loved every minute of it.
There are two kinds of fighter pilots...those that flew the 104 and those that wished they had.
Andy
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"Low level nuclear strike"? The fact that West Germany had nuclear weapons may come as a BIG surprise to a lot of people.
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Kurt Tank designed them. Little know fact. "Little Schnitzel" and "Fat Wurst" were the two bombs names. But Hitler insisted they be modified to as bombers and were never used.
(slapos own face.. sorry!!!)
Now back to the F-104 channel!! Andy, what is the real scoop on the leading egde of the wings? Really razor sharp or an exageration?
-Westy
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They weren't that sharp. They had a pretty small radius on the front though, maybe 1/16". At least on the static F-104's I've fondled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Westy
Not razor sharp or anything close. But sharp enough. I don't recall any specific measurement, but I always thought of the leading edge as being very much like the edge of a typical table knife. Sharp enough that if you bumped it with your head (as many have), you could end up with a nasty cut. The tail planes were equally sharp.
When compared to any other fighter's wing leading edge, the 104 wing was very unique.
The aircraft could do some pretty amazing things with that wing. Remember, it was only about seven feet long or so...and about 4 inches thick at the widest point of camber.
The jet could sustain about 6-7 Gs at about 420KIAS at low altitude...not too shabby for its era.
Its high speed capability is well known. When I flew the F-4, I thought that fast was 500KIAS...I've flown the 104 out to 800KIAS down to 200'AGL and that's fast! We strafed at 550KIAS with a min altitude of 75' and our fastest bomb delivery speed was 600KIAS at 200'. The only reason that we did not go faster was that the bomb carriage had not been certified for higher speeds.
Ya gotta love the jet! Still one of, if not THE, best looking jets ever made.
Just one man's opinion!
Andy
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Bluefish
They were US weapons. We controlled the storage and tasking of the weapons...the LW loaded and flew the missions.
Andy
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Andy Bush said:
> The jet could sustain about 6-7 Gs at about 420KIAS at low altitude...not too shabby for its era.
How do you thing the "big wing" version that Kelly wanted to build would have been?
> Its high speed capability is well known. When I flew the F-4, I thought that fast was
> 500KIAS...I've flown the 104 out to 800KIAS down to 200'AGL and that's fast! We strafed at
> 550KIAS with a min altitude of 75' and our fastest bomb delivery speed was 600KIAS at
> 200'. The only reason that we did not go faster was that the bomb carriage had not been
> certified for higher speeds.
> Ya gotta love the jet! Still one of, if not THE, best looking jets ever made.
> Just one man's opinion!
> Andy
I hate you. :-)
I just got to work in Special Services in my four years in the A.F. Not at all what it sounds like, it's now called M.W.R. I think. Gym Jock. But being in charge of the "Womens Exercise Program" was not to bad. The base pool duty was ok too... :-)
The F-4 might have been more adaptable, but the F-104 looked like a what a F-4 was in it's hidden thoughts, a JET
.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Did ya do alot of "Beta testing" MC? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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MC202
Hey...I liked the MWR troops! They were good people!
As for the follow-on proposals for the 104...there were quite a few. Ultimately, the final version ended up as a contender for what eventually became the F-16 program.
I did a review recently for SimHQ on a book, Skunk Works, by Jay Miller. He covers the entire F-104 development program and has some very neat info on the 'big wing' proposals. It would have been a real tiger!
Andy
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Fond memories here of watching the Starfighters based at Soest fly over my backyard in the late 70s.
The only model I ever built as a kid was an F-104. Dunno how or why, but I really liked the speed brakes.
Last engagement I heard of was a pair of them scrambling from Italy to chase of some mig-29s leaking out of Serbia.
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Here's your WW2 model of the F104, complete with its own launcher rack, just add some stubby wings and a cockpit and away you go! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://www.danshistory.com/ww2/v2.jpg)
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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat? Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!
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Originally posted by Bluefish:
"Low level nuclear strike"? The fact that West Germany had nuclear weapons may come as a BIG surprise to a lot of people.
if you really didnt know.. then you might really be surprised who we does have nuclear weepons. this is something that is "unspoken" or at least it used to be.
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SnakeEyes said:
> Did ya do alot of "Beta testing" MC?
Not with dependents, wives would have been poor form, daughters would have been dangerous :-)
Now as to non-fellow (female sort) fellow services types...
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Andy Bush said:
> MC202
> Hey...I liked the MWR troops! They were good people!
Thanks, I know we tried like hell to give the people a break from base life. We (and at the
remote site I was stuck at for my last year, I) did the most for junior enlisted and
officers alike. Both are young people, with few friends and a new life all at the same time.
I wanted to be a loadmaster, the A.F. wanted me to "volunteer" for crypto.. NO F WAY I was
going to live in a concrete bunker in Turkey, so I ended up as a 74150/51( I think that was
the AFC). He he, and an 89 day T.D.Y. with the Security Police as an "augmentee". Got to make
a Major lie face down on a rain wet flightline at M-16 point...he was at fault, and I got an "attaboy" letter.
The S.P.'s must have realy needed help to try to get me to change AFSN's to join them :-)
> I did a review recently for SimHQ on a book, Skunk Works, by Jay Miller. He covers the
> entire F-104 development program and has some very neat info on the 'big wing'
> proposals. It would have been a real tiger!
I'll give them a read.
> Andy
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Check this one out, pretty short takeoff run! http://www.airspacemag.com/ASM/Web/Site/QT/F104Launch.html (http://www.airspacemag.com/ASM/Web/Site/QT/F104Launch.html)
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Yanno, the F-104 was the first, and still is the only super-sonic jet to be able to manuver in zero G, and manuver independently on each axis (like a helicopter) while doing so.
The NF104 was not strictly a jet, it was a hybrid rocket and jet so I don't think your comparisons are too applicable. While maneovering at high altitude the jet motor was not able to operate and flamed out...
tssfka
"Trust me, I may not always be wrong..."
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This is a good example of what could happen if an f-4 guy dogfights an f-104 guy and the f-4 guy frogets to drop his drop tanks.
-- senna
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Here are two jets...an F-4C and a F-104G...this photo was taken near Luke AFB, Arizona.
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/F104_69th.jpg)
The 104 was used to teach German pilots...and is the aircraft used in the film, The Right Stuff.
I have flown both of these actual aircraft.
Andy
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Hey, I think Denmark used to operate 104's.
Does that make us k00l?
Now, we continue the tradition of flying crap allied opportunistic allied iron.
I still say we should fly 190's.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
If I am understanding this correctly, he died while campaigning. Then afterwards, he won the election.
Voting for a dead guy.
This one goes to the book of "Stupid Laws Around The World". :D
That's beyond stupid. It's...BISHROOK!
Here, if ya die, yer outta politics. Yer party finds a replacement. And it ain't gonna be your wife, unless she's the best candidate.
Pretty easy solution. Sort of like "if you're dead, you ain't got a place as a forward in Barcelona. And if you held the place and died, your wife ain't getting it."
Hey, can I vote for Elvis? :D.
--
StSanta
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Andy! You da Man!
I witnessed this F104 team at the smyrna airshow outside of Nashville a couple of months ago. These planes are privately owned! The starfighter makes a unique sound, especially traveling 600mph a couple hundred feet above ya. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.starfighters.net/gallery/Nashville/m9110009.JPG)
(http://www.starfighters.net/gallery/Lakeland/04001.jpg)
beatiful bird (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Their website: http://www.starfighters.net/ (http://www.starfighters.net/)
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Given the cost of jet fuel and the amount the F-104 is capable of burning...
most be some very very VERY rich guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
- Jig
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Jigster
The single seater holds 6000# internal...so depending on the cost of jet fuel...probably somewhere around a thousand bucks a flight.
Andy
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hblair
Yes...it was the ultimate 'good deal'!
This was taken when I soloed out in 1976.
The civilian is one of our crew chiefs...unlike any other fighter unit in the AF at that time, we used contract Lockheed maintenance...and those guys were good!
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/solo.jpg)
The thingy attached to the side of the canopy is an air conditioning hose. We used these blowers in the summer at Luke (Phoenix, Az). They worked great and made the cockpit a whole bunch more comfortable. Our buddies down the flight line in F-4s had nothing like this. The units were portable...and so when we taxiied to the arming area, we could use our coolers there also...while we waited to arm up. It was fun to sit along side an F-4 with our coolers on full blast and watch the Rhino guys swelter.
And I know they did since I flew F-4s at Luke also.
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Jigster
The single seater holds 6000# internal...so depending on the cost of jet fuel...probably somewhere around a thousand bucks a flight.
Andy
Did you figure that for Military or Civil prices? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Was Hartmann back in West Germany by 1957?
That was about the time Yeager was leaving to go back to the War College after nearly getting court marshalled.
Would of been ironic if they had both been in the same area at the same time, and not managed to get in a dogfight.
- Jig
This might interest you then...
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap13.jpg)
This aircraft is painted as the Storch used by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel in North Africa. Built in 1940, it was exported to Sweden where it remained until 1948. The last German to fly it before its acquisition by the donors in 1973 was German WW II ace Erich Hartmann. The pilot on its final flight was Brig. Gen. "Chuck" Yeager, USAF, first man to exceed Mach 1 in the Bell X-1. It was donated by Lt. Col. Perry A. Schreffler, USAFR, and Maj. Robert C. Van Ausdell, USAFR, of Santa Paula, California and was delivered to the Museum in 1974.