Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: bustr on August 18, 2009, 05:35:47 PM
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Henschel 129
On the Eastern front it carried in a belly pack a 30mm or 37mm or 75mm cannon. The 75mm was very effective against the T34's. In AH it will only be good as a feild defence from GV due to it manuvering like a loaded dump truck. The 30mm and 37mm had tungstin core rounds which would dissolve AH whirble cuppola from 1k. The 37mm was effective on tanks from the rear. It was used on the Ju87G.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_129 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_129)
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=439 (http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=439)
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/Hs129-05f.jpg (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/Hs129-05f.jpg)
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/Hs129-23f.jpg (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/Hs129-23f.jpg)
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/Hs129-21f.jpg (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/Hs129-21f.jpg)
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW/Hs129-75mm-6.jpg (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW/Hs129-75mm-6.jpg)
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW2/Hs129-B1-9s.jpg (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW2/Hs129-B1-9s.jpg)
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW2/Hs129-B2-11.jpg (http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW2/Hs129-B2-11.jpg)
http://ww2history.suite101.com/article.cfm/tank_busting_luftwaffe_style (http://ww2history.suite101.com/article.cfm/tank_busting_luftwaffe_style)
Luftwaffe Heavy Cannons
MK 101 - A 30 millimeter, long barreled automatic cannon capable of firing nine different types of ammunition (ranging from basic high explosive to tungsten-cored). Powerful and accurate for its day, it was carried primarily on the Henschel Hs-129 ground attack aircraft. With an ammunition capacity of thirty rounds, the MK 101 could penetrate 75 mm of armor at a 300 meter range.
MK 103 - An improved version of the MK 101, featuring a lighter weight, shortened barrel and an increased rate of fire. It was deployed almost exclusively on the Hs-129, although attempts were made to use Focke-Wulf Fw-190F's as a platform.
BK 3.7- Short barreled version of the obsolete 37 mm Flak 18 anti-aircraft gun, with a twelve round magazine. Junkers Ju87 dive bombers armed with one BK 3.7 mounted under each wing earned the moniker "Kanonenvogel" (cannon-armed bird). Hs-129’s were fitted with a single BK 3.7 under the fuselage, housed in a streamlined weapons pod.
BK 7.5 - Airborne variant of the 75 mm Pak 40 anti-tank gun. Initial testing and deployment was conducted using converted Junkers Ju88 medium bombers as platforms, but eventually most were mounted upon the sturdy Hs-129. Although limited in number, Hs-129’s armed with this weapon received the nickname "Buchsenoffner" (tin opener) to describe its devastating effect on opposing armored vehicles. The BK 7.5 carried twelve rounds, each capable of piercing 130mm of armor at 1000 meters
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It's sad that this plane never was really able to prove itself, being produced in small numbers and at a time where it couldn't rely on air cover during missions. This in addition to the design problems with the Hs 129.
It came in over weight and underpowered and when speed increased the controls would almost inoperable and dive bombing was a dangerous thing as the controls would lock up as the plane increased speed, even at low altitudes. Only 25 Hs 129s (B-3 and a few B-2s) were upgunned with the Bordkanone BK 7.5 model. Just a small note, while the 75mm cannon could destroy any tank on the planet at the time, the pay off was a plane that was barely flyable.
Haven't seen anything with the Hs 129 fielding the Flak 18 37mm cannon, thought the Luftwaffe for some undetermined reason decided to skip on this gun like they had with the up-gunned Ju88P-1.
The Hs 129C was supposed to address the underpowered problem. Unfortunately, the plant that made the Isotta-Fraschini Delta engine slated to be used was overrun by the Allies before the engines could be fitted.
Still, the B variant did operate in numbers on the Eastern Front and would be a good addition to the attack plane set.
ack-ack
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Haven't seen anything with the Hs 129 fielding the Flak 18 37mm cannon, thought the Luftwaffe for some undetermined reason decided to skip on this gun like they had with the up-gunned Ju88P-1.
Well, it did use the BK 3.7 (same weapon as in Ju87G-2) which was basically a Flak 18 modified as an aircraft weapon.
Powerloading and wingloading of a MK103 equipped Hs129B-2 are very close to the IL-2 3M in AH, just a hair worse. Twins in AH have quite good maneuverability in general considering their wingloading and Hs 129 has counter rotating props which should give it a nice low speed aileron authority. Power on, low speed roll rate is where IL-2 for example suffers greatly due to torque. I'd imagine that it would compare favourably to IL-2 in general maneuverability. The two 20mm cannons would be handy against softer targets which don't require 30mm rounds. I'd imagine the lethality of the MK103 would be very similar to the NS-37mm of the IL-2 3M. One centerline MK103 has very similar rate of fire compared to two NS-37s with no convergence issues to deal with. The major drawback would be the most probable lack of F3 view combined with basically blind 6-view.
I really would like to see this aircraft in AH someday.
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Well, it did use the BK 3.7 (same weapon as in Ju87G-2) which was basically a Flak 18 modified as an aircraft weapon.
Powerloading and wingloading of a MK103 equipped Hs129B-2 are very close to the IL-2 3M in AH, just a hair worse. Twins in AH have quite good maneuverability in general considering their wingloading and Hs 129 has counter rotating props which should give it a nice low speed aileron authority. Power on, low speed roll rate is where IL-2 for example suffers greatly due to torque. I'd imagine that it would compare favourably to IL-2 in general maneuverability. The two 20mm cannons would be handy against softer targets which don't require 30mm rounds. I'd imagine the lethality of the MK103 would be very similar to the NS-37mm of the IL-2 3M. One centerline MK103 has very similar rate of fire compared to two NS-37s with no convergence issues to deal with. The major drawback would be the most probable lack of F3 view combined with basically blind 6-view.
I really would like to see this aircraft in AH someday.
The Hs 129 was barely able to operate at speed or risk the controls locking up and the pilot crashing. With the 75mm cannon installed, the Hs 129 was barely able to stay in the air. In an air to air fight, the IL2 in AH would be all over the Hs 129. Remember, the Hs 129 was 12% over weight and 8% under powered and if its ever added to AH, it should reflect those percentages as well.
ack-ack
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The Hs 129 was barely able to operate at speed or risk the controls locking up and the pilot crashing.
The prototype aircraft suffered from heavy control forces but even then the controls weren't "locking up". By the B-variant the handling characteristics were considered as excellent by operational pilots and the aircraft was described as "pleasure to fly" and as "extremely stable gun platform". The control forces weren't heavy except when pulling out of fast dives but this was of course more or less true with most aircraft.
With the 75mm cannon installed, the Hs 129 was barely able to stay in the air. In an air to air fight, the IL2 in AH would be all over the Hs 129. Remember, the Hs 129 was 12% over weight and 8% under powered and if its ever added to AH, it should reflect those percentages as well.
I'm rather sure that the 75mm equipped B-3 wouldn't make it to AH. The best combination would be B-2 with MK103. Those percentages you mentioned apply only to the prototype with inline engines as the weight crept up by 12% compared to the projected take-off weight of the protptype. This wasn't the case with 14M powered serial production aircraft like the B-2. Like I said, the powerloading is very close to the IL-2 3M.
There's plenty of myths regarding the problems of Hs 129. While not a power house it was well suited for the task it was designed for.
Here's a good quote from Martin Pegg's Hs 129 PANZERJÄGER! to illustrate these points: "Development problems are an inevitable part of the life of any aeroplane and frequently stimulate the most attention. This is certainly true in the case of the Hs 129 and although these were overcome through development, the aircraft has continued to be associated more with its early problems than with its later success."
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When construction of the Hs-129 was halted in September of 1944, a total of 868 had been produced. Although proving to be a highly effective weapon against Soviet armored vehicles, Germany's overburdened war industry was simply incapable of manufacturing the Hs-129 in enough numbers to have a significant strategic impact.
Reference
Aggressors Volume 1: Tank Buster Vs. Combat Vehicle, Alex Vanags-Baginskis; Howell Press 1990
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Anytime some one talks about the Hs-129 all they ever focus on is the tank buster model. The basic Hs-129b would be pretty fun to fly. I'm not saying it would be a world beater....but it would be fun for busting towns and prepping bases for capture. It's a good looking aircraft.
Helm ...out
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Absolutley not......there shall be no competition for my precious IL-2...... :noid
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With the continued importance of GV in this game and thier direct influence on base taking, the Hs 129 as an airborne defence tool in its GV busting versions is a logical game play step. I'm not sure how many players as a preference block want to fly one to another feild with it's top speed performance not much better than the Ju87 or Il2. It would be interesting if HiTech could introduce dirt runway forward bases similare to the Eastern front with limited plane sets near clusters of GV bases. We already have Port\airfields.
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I love this plane.
I think it is a VITAL addon to AH2 to compete with the IL2 and B25 as tank busters. We should bring it in as a HE 129 B-2 but give it optional gun packs to substitute for the other models. Give it the 75mm BOOMSTICK with 12 rounds as an option and bye bye GV raids hello fun.
But yeah its almost a must, IN FRONT of the HE111 for me.
:aok +1
:airplane:
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I don't think it's any more useful than the JU-87 with cannons but here is a piece of supporting WWII intel information (circa 1943) on it:
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ge_af_apr43/index.html (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ge_af_apr43/index.html)
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I read in a book somewhere that the 75mm was able to be dropped in emergency situations.
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It would be an interesting airplane. The German BK 3,7 had trade offs as compared to the NS-37s of the IL2. The BK 3,7 fired a much lighter round at a higher velocity and with a better AP shell. However it did so at a lower ROF, "fairly significant lower", had less penetration, and the gun itself was heavier being simply a converted flak gun.
The IL2 was, and would be in the game, a better tank killer. It fired a 760 gram AP shell 880 m/s, for 294,000 joules of k/e, for an ROF of 250/500 ROF 2 guns. it could punch thru 50mm of any tank armor at 200 m.
The German 3.7mm fired an excellent 405 gram AP shell at 1,140 m/s, developing 263,000 joules of k/e with an RIF of 160 per gun. I cant remember what it was rated for penetration-wise but 40mm at 200m seems to come to mind. Certainly enough to punch thru the thin top armor of tanks. In the game yesterday a guy asked how I was able to take his sherman out so easily. Well I was shooting armor sections only 19mm to 25mm thick.
The HE-129 had a lot of various guns loaded on it. I would guess the 3,7mm would be the one loaded for the game. Since the 75mm made the aircraft unflyable.
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+1 :aok
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Zombie bump detected, but what can you do when If someone posted another thread of requesting this, just to have it shot down by "Use the search!!!11!!Q!"
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I brought it back from the dead with good intentions! :salute
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lol If he had posted a new thread for this, yes, likely would have received the "Use search button next time" post.
Makes me kind of curious though. I recall reading a post that the BK 37 the Stuka used was more powerful in terms of destructive power over the IL2's gun...
The He 129 would give the German Iron Driver's their own tank killer to fly. Personally, I'd like to see the BK 37's on the Stuka 1st, but would not complain one bit if this plane showed up first.
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focke archilese 223 :noid
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+1
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I agree, I would love to see the HS-129 or the JU-87 G model in the game. The Germans should have representation in the tank buster category. The Stuka 37mm gun pack should be easier to do then design a whole new plane plus HTC has the 37mm modeled already.