Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Gadfly on November 04, 2000, 11:04:00 AM
-
Here is the scheme that I like, no type of camouflage is going to work anyway so it may as well look cool. This is PT328, an 80' late war Elco like you were looking at.
(http://lizking.com/pt328.gif)
Now for Questions:
Are you going to use the "all guns point to one place" method, or does each mount have to be manned?
How will the torps and Rockets be fired?
Operating a 3 engine boat is a little different than an airplane; each engine must be able to ring through forward, neutral and reverse independently, and quickly. How are you going to do this?
Waiting and wishing,
Lizking
-
Ill assume all guns would fire at the same time, even then the damage from those gun on a Capitol Ship would be minimal and you would have to be very close for them to do any damage. Leaving you as a target as a CV wont be traveling alone. Best to take the Escorts out 1st.
One other thing the PTs leave open, the fact that they will need spotter planes to locate the enemy ships for them.
PBY Catilina, Storch, Westland Lysander and a good list of other planes to add to the set.
I got a feeling we are gona see a lot of PT v PT fights (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dog out.........
-
That 37mm and those 20mm will sink a destroyer with ease, to say nothing of the rockets. You will also notice the antenna array, yes, that is a radar dome up there, so we don't need no stinkin air scouts(air escort, perhaps).
All guns firing together will be a problem because of the different ROF, I think.
-
I'm guessing guns will work as they do currently - you can fire them all together or fire only the station you are currently manning.
-
WoW!! What a lethal looking beast she is! (gratuitous "I can see the FW lineage in her lines has been snipped)
I kind of hope that the guns are not the same as we have in bombers now. Helmsan (capable of jumping to gun) and for up to two more gunners would be nice. That baby needs to zig-zag in combat and she could have anti-ship or anti-air roles. Or need anti-air manning while there is a run on a ship during an anti-ship attack.
I'm slobbering like an infant while I day dream about taking this beauty through an enemy landing force or into a battlegroup at dusk or dawn.
Which leads me to CAN WE HAVE NIGHT BACK? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<cues up the McHales' Navy theme>
-- Commander McWesty
-
Glad..
Your assuming the destroyer is blind if you think the PT will get close enough to it to do damage!
The current range of the 37mm is 2.5k this puts the PT in range of some damn big guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dog out..
-
Speed & manuverability are the PT boats stock in trade.
Sure you'll thow everything you've got at whatever your attacking. But plan on ducking, dodgeing, get in just close enough to drop your fish then get the heck OUT.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
That is the general paint scheme that we'll be using.
Torps and smoke will be controlled by the pilot. Rockets are a bit trickier. We'll probably make them deploy out using the bombbay function, but we're tight on this schedule so if that becomes problematic we'll just leave them in the outboard position for now. To make the elevation adjustable, we'll probably tie them into an independent gunner position.
Guns will work in the normal method where you can either fire from the station you're manning or fire all guns that can be brought to bear on the target.
Dunno what we'll do with the engines yet.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
-
Pyro..
I think it will be to complicated and use to many keys to control engines properly.
I think for now leave the engine the same as the multi engine AC.. not the quikest way to turn a boat but it would still work. Although you do need to figure a way to reverse an engine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dog out.........
-
Woooooo Hooooo! man can't wait to take that baby out for a spin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hamish!
-
Yes,the reversible engine thing is very important on a multi prop boat, it greatly effects steerage.
Another point is the night thing,these were predominantly used in night interdiction of Jap supply lines,in the early to late war period...they were barge busters, that's why the 37mm gun on the forecastle was added,same one as in a P 39,also the rockets were used to make hit and run raids on coastal positions,some had mortars to,an some even went so far as to remove the aft torpedos to save weight because their were no Jap ships to sink in the later part of the war at least in the are's they were being used. They made some atacks on Jap fleet units in the early solomans champagnes.
Another point the bow 37mm i am pretty sure could not be used in a AA role.
And as far as sinking a destroyer with the guns i think not.
the torpedos are aircraft types ,adopted on late war boats to save weight,they role into the water. As opposed to the early boats that had "tubes" that shot the old MK14 torps.
these US PT boats also have a glass jaw, you better get some gunners man if u want to live, for if u stop your toast.(or at least u should be)
By they way i can't weight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh and why not a German S-boat(E-boat to u British types)they were way nastier,bigger faster made out of metal,had armor, protected gun mounts reloadable torpedo tubes,diesel engines,heck even one of Karl Donets sons rode on one.
Brady
-
Sounds good Pyro. It will take 2-3 persons to much good with a boat, as it should.
As for the engine controls, the easiest solution may be to "simulate" the Chief. i.e. there is no direct bridge to engine control, they used telegraphs and the Chief would manually set throttles and transmission.
Just tie it in to where a max left turn(for example) will automatically adjust throttles/transmissions for best turn. Be aware, however, that low speed operation of throttle/transmissions is a whole different story than high speed.
And yes, Bring on the Night!
-
My only question is whether there will be a button that plays "I Can't Get No Satisfaction"...
-
Comon, Funked, the ICGNS button is only on the PBR boats in the Vietnam game.
-
Pyro goofed on the PT-boat speed. Top speed for an 80' Elco boat is 48 knots, or 53 mph. 37mm or 40mm guns would do some serious damage to most any ship, but not sink a destroyer. Hence the torpedo racks. I've been looking around a few Navy sites for specs and found this: PT Specs (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mandm/ptspecs.htm)
I also found the following info about the Baltimore class. Specs for the guns are on a different page, but you're looking at a 22,500 yard max range for those 8" guns. And there's nine of 'em. AP shell weight is 339 pounds, HE weight is 168 pounds: Baltimore Class Cruiser (http://www.warships1.com/USca068_Baltimore_specs.htm)
Essex class carriers come in two flavors, short or long hull. I'm not sure which Pyro is putting together, but here's the specs on those too: Essex Class (http://www.warships1.com/UScv09_Essex.htm)
------------------
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
-
A boat fresh from the works would do 48 knots, for a few minutes, but the top speed of the fully equipped, fueled and armed boat was about 45 MPH. Put it in a tropical setting for a few months and you would lose a couple more MPH to bottom growth. Add in sub-par fuel and extra crap carried by crew and you would be lucky to cruise at 20, run at 40 MPH.
We will see what it can do to a destroyer when they make them.
-
Gadfly, torpedoes were there for attacking destroyers and such. A PT-boat couldn't take a single hit from a 5" gun, it would be blown to toothpicks. So you don't attack a capital ship with guns, you do it with torpedoes. Unless you WANT to die. As for the speed, a fully loaded boat could hit 48 knots [53mph]. Since age, wear and tear, and sub-standard parts aren't modeled they'll hit 48 knots. If higher octane fuel is used, they'll go faster. If not, they'll go slower. This purly depends on what Pyro uses for reference.
[Repost from "check the news forum...."]
Minor problem with that carrier control. Unless you know your ranking at that very moment, no one could control the carrier. Displaying each pilot's ranking next to his name, or on the upper part of the clipboard, would work. It'd be even easier if it was displayed in the Roster. Add a setting which only displays your country's current roster, and next to each name you'd see their ranking. It would instantly let someone know they've got the highest ranking and can control the carrier.
This could be more easily done if the carrier was tasked to a fixed route, which someone could change using the mission planner. For planned missions, anyone could set a route for the carrier to follow. If there's no mission in which a carrier is needed, it defaults back to the fixed route.
Just some random ramblings.
------------------
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
-
We aren't talking about what you SHOULD do, we are talking about what you COULD do. If you do not think that 37mm HE is capable of killing a Destroyer you are simply mistaken.
It isn't worth arguing about anyway, neither of us know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
As for the speed, well, again, it depends on how you look at it, and for this game, how it is modeled. I would wager you though, that there were damn few boats in action that would top 40 Knots(46MPH), and then only for a brief run.
-
We'll see what this ranking system brings..
couple commanders that controls the CV for months alone.. or what?
got to see also how that scoring system changes.
It'd be no fun if commanders of CV group could be count with the fingers of your one hand from the last half year.
-
Sry for my ignorance but this PT328 is the same model used by JFK???
JFK was on PT109 and i think was an Elco 80' model too but not sure.
-
PT109 was an Elco 80' according to this PT boat site's squadron info.
http://www.ptboats.org/11-1-05-squads.html (http://www.ptboats.org/11-1-05-squads.html)
"MTB RON 2(1)
Commissioned: 8,November 1940 - LCDR Earl S. Caldwell
Decommissioned: 11,November 1943 - LT Alvin P. Cluster
PT Boats: Elco 77' PT's 20-26, 28,30,32,34,36-40,42-48, 59-61, Elco 80' PT's 109-113, 144, 145, & 147.
Assigned To: the Panama Sea Frontier, Solomons and Guadalcanal.
Postscript: Squadron 2 included PT's 8 and 9, but were transfer to squadron 1. Also PT's 10-19, Elco 70' boats were included in this squadron but transferred to the British under the lend-lease agreement in April of 1941."
-
Just out of curiosity, what are the specs of the other countries patrol boats?
I remember reading long ago something of Italian patrol boats and that they were real hot rods too. But how was the armament and other accessories? And the German E-boats, what were they like?
I'd appreciate if someone could throw around some numbers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
---
SageFIN
"The wolves are gathering, the stars are shifting...
come, join us in the hunt!"
---
[This message has been edited by SageFIN (edited 11-05-2000).]
-
S-boat:
Known to the British for so illdefined reason as an E-boat,the German Schnellboot,or S-boat,differed greatly from it's royal navy counterparts.From it's organs in a Lurssen civil Design,the S-boat was built of wood on a alloy frame,the boats had a hard chin which enabled them to sustain top speed in bad sea stats better than their British counterparts(the hull form is still being copied today).They were powered by diesels and the later models were capable of 42knots sustained speed.they were long to 100ft plus and had two forward tube with two reloads and they fired a full size torpedo like the G7e not the smaller aircraft type of the late war PT boats.The later war S-boats carried a heaver armament 37mm on the fantail and a 20mm in a wel on the bow in front of a "ARMORED"bridge,these were way mor survivable than the PT series and carried a heaver anti shipping Punch,they were also extremely maneuverable,they had trimming vanes under the hull before the props to trim the boat.
Brady
-
37mm can't sink a Destroyer? Are you nuts? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There are documented cases of Axis Destroyers (in both Med and Pacific) being sunk by Allied aircraft on strafing runs, armed solely with 6 x .50's.
It all depends on what you hit. They weren't called "tin cans" for nothing.
Now is the PT boat going to survive long enough to get into range, and get the sustained bursts needed to do the job before it is turned into firewood kindling by the superior firepower of the Destroyer? THAT is the subject for a good debate.
But Destroyers were not heavily armored warships able to shrug off enemy fire. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 11-06-2000).]
-
Besides being butt-E-ugly
(http://internetmodeler.com/sept99/ships/ship_ebt7a.jpg)
and larger in size, the German E-Boats were a major threat. They never did have the impact in the war that they should have, imo. Especially off Dieppe Italy and Normandy. They just did not have the impact or the success as the USN had in the PAcific with them. IMO once again.
'Sides. Look at the sleek sexy line on that Elco at the top. Packed to the gills with guns and cannon too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-06-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-06-2000).]
-
Westy,that's an early S-boat,the later ones are way sleeker the tubes are hosed in the hull,and the later S-boats packed a way heaver armament,the only impact PT boats really had in the later part of the war was in bargebusting,S-boats sank more gross tonnage in shipping(I would bet u money on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ).Also the reason the allies did not have such a hard time from the S-boats off Normandy is that they considered them a major threat prior to D-day and allocated special resources to deal with the threat,to sit an example of their prowess,one night of the S coast of England a group of LST's were attacked and sank while carrying a full load of us troops and equipment on a training mission in preparation for the D-day landings,I think it was a total of 4 LST that went down on that one night,Ya se the Royal Navy were never able to mount a truly effective counter measure to deal with them,and as far as operating at a closely defended beach head like Normandy,well I think the answer their is self evident.
Brady
O and that 37mm on the bow of the PT is a very small round no where near the size of the 40mm boffors on the fantail,and yes I am sure the fire from one of them could hurt a destroyer but I doubt that it would cause it alone to sink,one torpedo would surface in most cases I would think though.
-
A boat fresh from the works would do 48 knots, for a few minutes, but the top speed of the fully equipped, fueled and armed boat was about 45 MPH. Put it in a tropical setting for a few months and you would lose a couple more MPH to bottom growth. Add in sub-par fuel and extra crap carried by crew and you would be lucky to cruise at 20, run at 40 MPH.
Gents, let get one thing straight - 45mph is just under 40kts, 48kts is almost 56mph - that's 20% drop in speed you're proposing here - let's keep the units the same when we compare things (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
------------------
lynx
13 Sqn RAF
-
Originally posted by flakbait:
Pyro goofed on the PT-boat speed. Top speed for an 80' Elco boat is 48 knots, or 53 mph.
You'll be hard pressed to come up with a creditable source for a 48 knot top speed on a late war Elco. 40-41 knots is a pretty universal figure for that boat. Here's a nice webpage on PT boats: http://www.ptboats.org/09-0-05-facts.html (http://www.ptboats.org/09-0-05-facts.html)
On carrier control, you don't need to know your ranking and compare it to everyone else, you just need to know whether you are allowed to input control waypoints at any particular time.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
-
As far as Italy is concerned their boats were typically armed with 2 20mm breda 65 AA guns and a number Machine Guns,Plus 2 to 4 ready to fire torpedos and in some cases 2 reloads, the following is from a great web sight on the Regia Marina Italian:
The MAS and the MS achieved notable successes during the war. It must be noted that, besides the sinking of numerous merchant ships, these units sunk the largest warship sunk by a torpedo boat in the period 1939/45. This was the English light cruiser MANCHESTER , sunk during the Battle of Mid-August by MS 16 and 22.
It also must be noted the sinking of the English destroyer LIGHTNING (Algerian coasts, March 12th 1943), the Russian submarine EQUOKA (Black Sea, June 19th 1942), and the serious damages to the English cruisers CAPETOWN (MAS 213 April 8th 1941) and Russian MOLOTOV. (MAS 568 and 573 August 3rd 1942).
http://www.regiamarina.net/ (http://www.regiamarina.net/)
Brady
-
A little more raw data a German S-boats:
S-38 group:
displacement: 92.5t standard; 115t deep load
Dimensions: 114ft 8in x 16ft 9in x 5ft
Machinery 3-shaft Daimler-Benz diesels, 6000bhp = 39.5 kts armament 2-533mm TT,and up to 3 20mm and 1-40mm(or one 37mm and four 20mm)
Also of note from 67 onward all S-boats had the panzerkalotte (armored bridge),this gave the boats an incredibly cool appearance,
also the :
S-100 group (same as above but)
Machinery:3-shaftDB diesels 7500bhp=42knt's,S301-500 9000bhp=45knts!
Ahhhhh,speed,armor,heaver guns,BIG torpedos with long legs and a big warhead,and it takes a good picture (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Brady