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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 09:07:32 AM

Title: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 09:07:32 AM: HTC,
Bear with my graphic ignorance please.....I am creating quiet a few custom objects for project of mine.
What I am looking for is some sort of reference. IE How many poly's I can expect a normal users computer
to endure. Right now I have a tower setup that is 2800 surfaces and 3800 vertices. Granted its a bit
extreme and over modeled, the hand railing alone is 60% of it.

With my basic knowledge of graphics I couldn't even tell you if thats a high or low count tho. However,
at high speed, making close passes my computer runs it fine. Unfortunately, (depending on how you view
it) my computeris probably in the upper third of AcesHigh users. What runs well on my computer perhaps
wont on 2 out 3 other computers. Most, okay all, of my background is in 3D cad software, which for planar
objects (like towers) gives me just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh121/purplehaze835/towerpic-1.jpg)

(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh121/purplehaze835/redbull.png)

Edit: This is another one of my models......its just got a basic texture on it right now.

This was taken about half way through building the tower but shows the detail I was getting into. It now has a
superstructure, radio antenna, basic flag and another hand rail. Before I mentioned even completed my computer
only drops a few frames compared to a normal large field. Its also important to note that the terrain will be devoid
of the normal trees. The field will also have none of the ack, troops, ordnance or hanger buildings. It wont be total
devoid but you get the idea, I hope.

How many poly's should I try to keep in view at one time?

Roughly how many polys is a CV group?

Should I just try to find a test mule to see where my airfield stands?

I am walking blindly through a mine field of the graphic world. Creating a good model is not my main problem....its making
sure most of the players can use it is. Any words of wisdom are welcomed....

<S> Strip
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Waffle on August 19, 2009, 09:31:04 AM: could do the top one with 14 polys - with alpha texture for rails instead of 3d rails...

bottom one with 27 polys, if you use 10 sided cones.

2800 polys is a little high :)

Less is always better.

I think there's a quote along these lines: "Anyone came make the simple complicated... creativity is making the complicated simple."
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Kazaa on August 19, 2009, 09:33:44 AM: Waffle,

How many poly's would B-29 consist of? :noid
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: hitech on August 19, 2009, 09:34:11 AM: That would be ok if you were doing an entire airplane. For a tower it is about 10 - 50 times to many.

The key to modeling is less is more. Also you must is what is it used for. If no one would ever see the handle rail from closer than 100 Ft, what is the use of spending many faces on it.

The other thing that drastically effects performance is number of state changes, I.E. just changing 1 color or texture on some objects can make them take twice as long to draw.

There never is a hard and fast number of how many to use, it is always use the absolute minimum you can use and have an acceptable look.

HiTech
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Waffle on August 19, 2009, 09:36:01 AM: Quote from: Kazaa on August 19, 2009, 09:33:44 AM
Waffle,

How many poly's would B-29 consist of? :noid

six.

10.382 million for the nook.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Kazaa on August 19, 2009, 09:38:04 AM: :lol :cry :rofl
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: fudgums on August 19, 2009, 09:43:42 AM: Quote from: Waffle on August 19, 2009, 09:36:01 AM
six.

10.382 million for the nook.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 09:46:04 AM: I can imagine! But the hand rails wouldn't be round with pretty curved corners. Those are 16 sided rails
and corners that are bends rather than being square. Not that they needed to be but it was test model,
I wanted to see what it took to do what I want.

That and it was a test to see if I could model in a graphic software as well as I could in CAD software.

The bottom one is about 160 polys but its 32 sided and in four segments. You cant see it but its not a
perfect cone. It bulges in some areas like the real thing, probably over done again. I am really looking for
a good reference, how far is to far?

I can imagine this dilemma is the nightmares of many a programmer.

Edit: Wow I type slow I guess....lol....replies to come.

Strip
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 10:00:44 AM: Quote from: hitech on August 19, 2009, 09:34:11 AM
That would be ok if you were doing an entire airplane. For a tower it is about 10 - 50 times to many.

The key to modeling is less is more. Also you must is what is it used for. If no one would ever see the handle rail from closer than 100 Ft, what is the use of spending many faces on it.

The other thing that drastically effects performance is number of state changes, I.E. just changing 1 color or texture on some objects can make them take twice as long to draw.

There never is a hard and fast number of how many to use, it is always use the absolute minimum you can use and have an acceptable look.

HiTech

That bold bit tells me a lot....

The highly detailed tower was probably a pipe dream from the start, I knew it. Most of the railing was set at MaxDist=800 (or less) and it didnt stutter when drawn. In fact I was thrilled the first time I saw it in the game and could buzz the tower. Just getting into the game, without crashing or stutters, was a huge ego boost. With my knowledge beforehand I was going bonkers trying to figure it out. The corners alone account for 1500 polys and were in the process of going away, before this. The railing was another 800, vertical posts another 1,000. The tower itself was maybe 280-300 so from your statements that should generally be acceptable. Without a frame of reference I couldnt tell if I was pushing the line or so far over I couldnt see it. As it was I needed binocs to see the darn thing.....

I knew I was in deep when I saw the terrain.res file at 11 mb!

:lol

Thanks for the help....

<S> Strip
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 10:32:57 AM: Here is my arcane, resource intensive turd next to Waffles work of art. Its finished model wise....

Edit: Finished meaning what I was trying to do.....not necessarily what would work.

(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh121/purplehaze835/ahss61.jpg)

Piss poor shot setup and no textures but you get the idea. I have not been able to update anything in the TE since update.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Kazaa on August 19, 2009, 10:38:18 AM: Don't be so hard on yourself Strip, it looks really nice.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Saxman on August 19, 2009, 10:41:30 AM: Strip,

If you REALLY want to keep the detailed railing, try reducing from 16 faces around to 4, (turn it so you have a diamond shape) or even 3. You can still get the rounded corners look without needing more than that.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: TequilaChaser on August 19, 2009, 10:41:37 AM: wondering how many hours worth of time you got into making these objects?

looks good from here.......also looks like you working on something for some kind of plane racing league perhaps? ;)
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Kazaa on August 19, 2009, 10:56:38 AM: BTW Strip, what software did you use?
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 11:18:20 AM: Quote from: Kazaa on August 19, 2009, 10:38:18 AM
Don't be so hard on yourself Strip, it looks really nice.

Thanks Kazaa, confidence has not been my strong suit in this particular adventure. I used AC3D which I just bought for 79.99 USD, a fair value I think.

Quote from: TequilaChaser on August 19, 2009, 10:41:37 AM
wondering how many hours worth of time you got into making these objects?

looks good from here.......also looks like you working on something for some kind of plane racing league perhaps? ;)

If I was to do it over, and knew the dimensions maybe 3-4 hours. I have learned some tricks to keep poly count to a bare minimum. If I was to go that route add another hour or two. In fact I will probably do it over using what I have learned. With the learning process and measuring pictures etc. it took me about 20 hours the first time. Another three or four to learn the interface between AC3d, the Object Editor and the Terrain Editor. The pylons took only about 5 minutes to physically draw. Overall there is less than an hour invested in it. That might all sound impressive but even the tower is a basic 3d object. No compound curves or blends to speak and its totally planar, every surface is just 4 vertices. Someone like Waffle could do five of these in a day dream.

The tower is for a 100% scale (dimensionally anyway) Reno/Stead Airport on a desert type terrain for circuit racing. The pylon is slated, I hope, for a Red Bull Air Race inspired league formed by Notch. He is currently running his on normal terrains if anyone is interested. Second Sunday of the month I think....see the AHXARL forum for better info tho.

Quote from: Saxman on August 19, 2009, 10:41:30 AM
Strip,

If you REALLY want to keep the detailed railing, try reducing from 16 faces around to 4, (turn it so you have a diamond shape) or even 3. You can still get the rounded corners look without needing more than that.

I was thinking of that Saxman and it certainly something I am going to look at. The alpha stencil works, but looks really bad compared to somethings, hence my wanting to keep it. I might do a 8 (or 6) face rail with no corners which would be around 500-600 polys total. Even on the real tower the corners are hardly noticed or visible.

Strip
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Kazaa on August 19, 2009, 11:29:58 AM: Rome wasn't build in a day. :aok
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: save on August 19, 2009, 11:40:32 AM: it was burned down in one night ;)
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: fudgums on August 19, 2009, 11:49:32 AM: Quote from: save on August 19, 2009, 11:40:32 AM
it was burned down in one night ;)

oh snap :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: SlapShot on August 19, 2009, 11:54:43 AM: Hmmmm ... those cones looks like AIR RACING cones !!! :x
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Superfly on August 19, 2009, 12:39:11 PM: To build on what Dale said, if you make the polygons all use the same texture, material, and keep the polygons white, it will make things render much faster. If you can make all the polygons on say, an airfield, use one texture and one material, it would render fast and you could actually use more polygons.

Also in regards to your tower object, you'll lose all detail you have on those handrails beyond probably 20 feet max. After that distance, you may as well make them flat polygons or wireframes. Moreover, you have to think about whether or not some of the details are worth making. When a player is flying by, they're not going to be flying by admiring your handrails or the fact that you made a guy standing on deck drinking a cup of cocoa with modelled marshmellows floating on top. :) Most likely, they won't really notice much of anything beyond the general shape of the building. If they're close enough to notice such details, they're about to crash into it. :O
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: hitech on August 19, 2009, 12:46:41 PM: "The tower is for a 100% scale (dimensionally anyway)"

How are you going to get a monitor big enough.

HiTech
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 01:20:14 PM: Quote from: Superfly on August 19, 2009, 12:39:11 PM
To build on what Dale said, if you make the polygons all use the same texture, material, and keep the polygons white, it will make things render much faster. If you can make all the polygons on say, an airfield, use one texture and one material, it would render fast and you could actually use more polygons.

Also in regards to your tower object, you'll lose all detail you have on those handrails beyond probably 20 feet max. After that distance, you may as well make them flat polygons or wireframes. Moreover, you have to think about whether or not some of the details are worth making. When a player is flying by, they're not going to be flying by admiring your handrails or the fact that you made a guy standing on deck drinking a cup of cocoa with modelled marshmellows floating on top. :) Most likely, they won't really notice much of anything beyond the general shape of the building. If they're close enough to notice such details, they're about to crash into it. :O

Thanks for the hints/tips in the first line or two....that changes my perspective on things.

AHXARL races often spend a good bit of time in the tower, especially if they crash like me.

:D

All kidding aside the airfield is going to be the only attraction to the terrain. Other than a few outer pylons, the odd building or two, start/finish pylon, tower and the airfield itself its going to be pretty sparse. In any event I will seriously dial back the handrail and play with it some. Then again if I saved polygons there I could add grandstands, scale hangers and parked planes.

:O

My problem isnt deciding what I could add...its what I should add. Me thinks I am getting to glimpse into the daily dilemma HTC faces. lol

Thanks for the replies and interest!

<S> Strip
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 01:21:11 PM: Quote from: hitech on August 19, 2009, 12:46:41 PM
"The tower is for a 100% scale (dimensionally anyway)"

How are you going to get a monitor big enough.

HiTech

Virtual dimensions....

;)
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Shuffler on August 19, 2009, 01:21:50 PM: Quote from: Waffle on August 19, 2009, 09:36:01 AM
six.

10.382 million for the nook.

:rofl
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Waffle on August 19, 2009, 01:22:55 PM: Quote from: Superfly on August 19, 2009, 12:39:11 PM
When a player is flying by, they're not going to be flying by admiring your handrails or the fact that you made a guy standing on deck drinking a cup of cocoa with modelled marshmellows floating on top.

but leave a vodka bottle out of a la7........you never hear the end of it...... :rofl
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 01:24:35 PM: Quote from: Waffle on August 19, 2009, 01:22:55 PM
but leave a vodka bottle out of a la7........you never hear the end of it...... :rofl

Is that why most La7 drivers act like they are drunk?
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Baumer on August 19, 2009, 08:40:16 PM: Superfly, I do have to bring up the point that some players take great pride in crashing into things and admiring the detail!

Just imagine a B err... P-38 hanging from that exquisitely detail handrail, with one of Dan's excellent write-up's. :lol
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 19, 2009, 08:44:33 PM: I could see it now....

Something about borrowing the towers blender?

:D
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Kev367th on August 20, 2009, 11:38:09 AM: A lot of it is knowing/guessing how many surfaces you need to make things look round. More close up, as little as 6 (hexagon) looks round past a certain distance.
Also remember to remove any surfaces that won't be seen.

I learn't a lot from here http://home.sprynet.com/~drawlins/AI_aircraft/AI_aircraft.html (http://home.sprynet.com/~drawlins/AI_aircraft/AI_aircraft.html)

In their time the ai aardvark guys were generally regarded as producing the best frame-rate friendly aircraft for MSFS.
So although it's for aircraft using GMax, the principles are the same.

It's amazing what you can get away with using only around 4000 polys. (complete will add another few hundred)

(http://www.militaryaiworks.com/forum/files/f6_106.jpg)
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Saxman on August 20, 2009, 01:34:04 PM: Significantly more than 4000 polys, but it IS a bit more complicated than that jet....

(http://saxman.xwlegacy.net/images/X-wingFWD.png)

Couldn't help showing off.

:D
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: helbent on August 20, 2009, 05:24:22 PM: Well, I for one like the railings and the tower alot, they look great Strip, stay after it.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 20, 2009, 05:43:57 PM: Thanks, Helbent

<S>Strip
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Enker on August 20, 2009, 08:52:11 PM: Quote from: Saxman on August 20, 2009, 01:34:04 PM
Significantly more than 4000 polys, but it IS a bit more complicated than that jet....

(http://saxman.xwlegacy.net/images/X-wingFWD.png)

Couldn't help showing off.

:D
At 4300 polys, looks more complicated, yet isn't.

As I would rather send you to see his image rather than post it here, Link= http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60534.msg1201132.html#msg1201132 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60534.msg1201132.html#msg1201132)

I would say that this guy is a master of simplifying models while still not skimping on detail.

Also, Strip, I like the way the tower looks. There is just something about how the tower stands that I like, though I'm not really sure why.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Ciaphas on August 21, 2009, 07:46:08 AM: Saxman, there are a ton of wasted poly's on that X-wing. You can probably bang that out with half the amount. You just need to use your multipliers. I think mesh smooth would be a good thing for you to mess with. You can also remove a ton of poly's by removing half the amount of sides that you currently have on your cylinders..

You can also make use of normal, spec and ambient occlusion mapping to get get a ton of detail with out wasting poly's.

Here is one of mine, this is before mesh smoothing and optimization. This is a shade over 2.5k, which is acceptable by any standards of 3D game asset creation. When i get done simplifying the Gatling barrels it will be around 1.8k.

(http://fc09.deviantart.com/fs48/f/2009/187/b/4/Turret_minigun_variant_by_David_Polensky.jpg).
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Saxman on August 21, 2009, 08:09:21 AM: It's actually not quite as high as you might think. I haven't played with it for a while, but I think they count is somewhere around 7k with a mix of quads and triangles. Mesh smoothing IS turned on by AC3D. The cannon barrels could stand for some reduction, but a lot of the poly count once again owes to the complexity of the model (there's detail on the S-foil interior that's not visible in this screen, for one. Multiply that by the four wings).

I've also found it's not so much the poly count that's the issue. Based on experience with other games it's the vertex count that's more important.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 21, 2009, 08:17:35 AM: Thanks guys...

You just gave me my next long term modeling project.

(http://lh4.google.com/Bigbellenbob/R53W9O1SoMI/AAAAAAAAGIg/XW7T1MumZl8/s400/88mm03.jpg)

Its something that would be right at home in this game.

:devil
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Ciaphas on August 21, 2009, 08:25:22 AM: yeah most worry bout the vertex but the poly count is a good indication of how heavy your model is going to be or already is. That X-Wing for a game? or is it an animation piece?
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Saxman on August 21, 2009, 08:40:44 AM: For starters it's for some experiments I'd like to run using Orbiter (free space simulation). Although a simple box in the general silhouette would be just as useful for what I intend to do, it's just not the same as looking like I actually AM flying an X-wing. :D From there a lot will depend on just what Orbiter could be made to do....

If I were to ever put it into an actual game I'd definitely use varying LOD models. This would be the "extreme closeup" version that would only appear when looking at your own ship from an external view, or if you ever happen to get REALLY close to another one (say, within less than 50-75m). There's also a rendered cockpit (general shape with some of the larger details) on the model that you can't see because apparently AC3D can't make individual meshes transparent (the canopy glass is a separate mesh from the frame).
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Waffle on August 21, 2009, 09:20:51 AM: An example of our poly count would be the LA7...

It comes in at 5472 polys at the highest LOD. That's including the high LOD cockpit.

Keep in mind that is just the base shape.

Multi-layer materials (normal mapping / specular / bump) are great ways to make an object look far more detailed than the actual geometry.
Only problem with doing it that way, is you have to create a super high poly model, then render/bake the normal maps....the build a low poly version (better to build than use poly reduction software) and map the created textures to it.
The texture resource alone increases 2-3 fold per object. Makes for a big download. If you're shipping on DVD, you can have pretty much unlimited art resources, but for us, smaller is better.

Here's a cool thread showing bump mapping on low poly panzer.
http://www.military-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2666
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 21, 2009, 09:39:00 AM: Even though I thought I knew very little before this thread it has proven to me that I know even less than orginally thought.

:lol

All of my experience has been with 3d CAD/CAM software, if you didn't draw it, it wasn't there. In the 3d model realm you can use multiple tools to add effects that aren't physically on the model. Its been a real learning process just to begin to understand the normal mapping, specular, and bump mapping. Thats without even using those processes, gotta start somewhere I guess....

<S> Waffle...seeing your new work has garnered my interest in 3d modeling.

Strip
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: moot on August 21, 2009, 10:30:01 AM: Waffle - It's not feasible to have those normal/spec/bump mapped models as a separate download, like hires textures?
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 21, 2009, 10:32:28 AM: I was thinking about asking that...was curious myself.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: moot on August 21, 2009, 10:41:40 AM: Can you imagine some of Greebo & co's skins, normal and specular mapped? Those Fester skins with the bare metal showing thru under sunlight :eek:
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 21, 2009, 10:42:04 AM: :x
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Waffle on August 21, 2009, 10:52:44 AM: Personally, I'd like to see it someday - but there's alot of issues to wade through going down that road.
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Strip on August 21, 2009, 11:25:23 AM: Wear the ole boss man down for us!

:aok
Title: Re: HTC.....Poly Count
Post by: Ciaphas on August 21, 2009, 01:39:34 PM: Anothe rmethod is to paint your normals, this method has to be done perfectly or it turns out like poo.