Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SKurj on November 06, 2000, 06:12:00 PM
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Seating position in the 109, being more reclined than other AC of the time, permitted its pilot to withstand more G forces than pilots of other fighter AC of the time.
Perhaps this should be modelled?!
SKurj
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Hmm I think it already is... caveman was whining about me shooting him when he thought i was blacked out just because he was...
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190 had the 30 degree recline, not the 109 (AFAIK anyway, they may of added it to the later 109's)
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Originally posted by Jigster:
190 had the 30 degree recline, not the 109 (AFAIK anyway, they may of added it to the later 109's)
Jigster where did u get that info? The 109's have always had a reclined seat. The 190's though I do not know it's degree's from all pic's, etc sits more upright.
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Wingnut
GeschwaderKommadore
P.T.R. "Black 13"
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
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I read that the resistance to blackouts was due to the fact that the seat was practically on the floor and your legs had little bend in them when your feet were on the pedals.
Rust
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rocketace/_uimages/rust.jpg)
The Free French Air Force
[This message has been edited by rust (edited 11-06-2000).]
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109 had a reclined seat. Current blackout for pilots in AH is around 5G, so for a 109 should be 5/cos(30)=5.75 G. This would be a cool feature!!!
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Hi
The slight seatback recline combined with the fact that pilots legs basically sat flat on the cockpit floor of 109 so blood didnt pool in legs as easily as it would in more upright leg positions did make it better for the pilot in withstanding G. How much I cant say but if it works in F16s it should work in 109 too.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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I hope this gets/is modeled correctly. Maybe someone from HTC could shed some light on the subject?
AKDejaVu
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just hold your breath and grunt as in a BM
Eagler
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hold on here, folks!
Neither of these fighters had reclined seats. I think you are mistaking where the rear of the canopy meets the fuselage as the seat area. These pictures show how it actually was.
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/109a.jpg)
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/109b.jpg)
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/190.jpg)
Hope this helps!
Andy
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Yup. They both look pretty damn upright to me. I was wondering wtf people were talking about.
Although if you look at this detailed 1/48scale model of a 109G cockpit, the pilots legs would be a little less bent than most other aircraft. Not sure how that would help blood in the torso not rise/drain into/from the brain.
(http://www.hyperscale.com/images/bf109g6cockpitbg_2.jpg)
And from pics and another model (although unfinished) of a FW-190-D9 cockpit, by that same comnpany that did the 109 cockpit, I cannot see anythign special about the 190 that would seperate it from any other fighter type of WWII.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-07-2000).]
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> Although if you look at this detailed 1/48scale model of a 109G cockpit, the pilots
> legs would be a little less bent than most other aircraft. Not sure how that would help
> blood in the torso not rise/drain into/from the brain.
The M.C.202/205 had much the same leg position, along with smooth aluminum "trays" for the lower leg to rest and slide on.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Think like this:
It's easy to drink water with pipe if you keep glass on your hand. Now put the glass on the ground and try to suck with longer pipe.
It's not the distance (well it too...) but more the level where you keep the glass.
Just a guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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does that mean allied pilots get G-suits? hehe ok ok I'm just kidding..... oh lord please don't kill me..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hmm nevermind, the 30 degree incline seat was first introduced as part of the Do 335 ejector seat.
- Jig
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Ok ok mebbe it wasn't that the seat was reclined it was the pilots seat position with his legs stretched straight out in front of him. Not sat upright in a chair like most other designs. This did help the pilot withstand more gee forces.
SKurj
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SKurj said:
> Ok ok mebbe it wasn't that the seat was reclined it was the pilots seat position with
> his legs stretched straight out in front of
him. Not sat upright in a chair like most
> other designs. This did help the pilot withstand more gee forces.
>SKurj
Like in the Macchi M.C.200/202/205?
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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I've sat in the cockpits of the P-47-D and F4U-4 and the legs are about the same- way out in front. No dinner table style captains chairs in those planes either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Seat position and G forces....
The relevant point here is the relationship of the heart to the head. If the head can be placed 'level' with the heart, then the heart has an easier job of pumping blood to the head...the more upright the head is, the harder it is for the heart to pump blood 'uphill', ie under G. Obviously, it's the blood in the head that is important here, not the blood that is in the legs!
There were several designs in WW2 that had the pilot in the prone position (laying on his stomach) to provide relief from G forces...none of them were operationally workable...although they did in fact reduce or slow G-induced 'blackout'.
It is doubtful that leg position had a significant impact on the head/heart issue...emphasis on the word 'significant'. It is far more likely that the desire to keep aircraft size and vertical cross-section to a minimum was more in play in the seat/rudder position issue.
Andy
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Andy, on that 190 photo you've actually marked the armor plate/headrest assembly which slides back with the canopy. The upper part of the seat ends right below it and is not really visible in the photo.
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funked
Hey...that's neat! I didn't know that!
Thanks for the tip!
Andy
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I just found a reference in Yeager's book that the 190 seat did indeed have a 30 degree incline. I knew I had read that somewhere.
At least the A-8 that was at Wright field after war had one. He brings it up when talking about the P-51 and A8 (and promptly notes that the seat is nicer then wearing one of those early G-suits, but not as effective)
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(http://users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix/images/109.jpg)
It's the leg angle -v- body angle that I think skurj is referring to. Check this image of 109 cockpit.. its pretty clear to see that the pilots legs would have been almost horizontal during flight.