Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Grumble on February 27, 2000, 10:16:00 AM
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The following is my first installment of a completely fair analysis of which A/C should be added to the AH plane set for either scenario of main arena use. This first installment i will talk about Russia's most prolific Fighter of the war the Yak-9D. Aircraft to follow soon:
Yak-3
Yak-9U
La5FN
La7
IL-2 and other bombers
Mig-3/7
Thesis on Russian aircraft for inclusion to Aces High plane set as current of 2/27/2000:
1.) Criteria for choice:
A.) Competitiveness to currently modeled aircraft for main arena usage concerns
B.) Historic significance in relation to scenario options and useage
C.) How prolific was the design. As for main arena use we should restrict small production or 'one of a kind' A/C.
Candidates:
Primary candidates and why:
Yakovlev series fighters:
Yak-9D: This fighter by far is one of the most produced soviet fighters of all time. She came at a time when it was critical for the VVS (Soviet Air Force) to offer a competitive design to the current crop of German fighters. Introduced in 1942 she became an immediate favorite of Russian pilots. She was able to turn with the BF109E/F models and outclimb the FW190A. Although her speed was unimpressive in context to other designs of the day (Maximum speed of 379 MPH @ 12,000ft) she helped the VVS where they needed it, down low. Her power loading figures were good with a Maximum takeoff weight of 6,700lbs and a power rating of 1360HP.
Power to weight ratio: 6350(typical wght) / 1360HP = 4.67 lb/hp
Other comments: The Yak-9D had 'short legs' with a max range without drop tanks at 516miles. She didnt have a clean aerodynamic design but had a high drag coefficient which bled speed quickly. She had a roomy interior with sparce equipment and a reliable engine. Her armament was generally weak with only one 12.7mm UB machine gun and a 20mm ShVaK cannon firing through the prop hub. Ammo load was light as was lethality for the small armament. With a powerful ratio of weight to engine HP she should accelerate quickly and reach her most desirable performance altitude (i.e. 16,000ft or less) in just a few minutes.
Climb Rate: initial climb 3,600ft/min
Comparison to advesaries in Aces:
P-51: Yak would have equal acceleration to P51 although 51 could keep her speed in manouvers due to superior aerodynamics. Could out turn P51 with ease. P51 superior in speed about equal in climb. P51 vastly superior above 16,000ft as the Yak9D's blowers are made for low alt work. Low max speed makes for 'easy' meat if Yak9 driver doesn't use his strengths.
Some relative power to weights for current A/C in AcesHigh:
P-51D : Typical weight 7125lbs/1520HP = 4.6 lb/hp
Aircraft Negatives: quick bleed in speed would keep this aircraft from being a mount of 'choice'. Although she accelerates and climbs good she would never be considered an 'E' fighter, one sharp turn and your speeds gone.
Aircraft Positives: You can use her bad drag characteristics to your advantage. Spitfire dives on you and forgets to retard throttle. he overshoots you turn inside him because your bleeding speed and he's not (BG). If he doesn't extend his spitfire, at 250mph will never out turn your small turn radius and low speed (by now lets say 170MPH). Just hope your a good shot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) as it may be your only chance. If you continue to turn he will get inside you very easily and wax your Yak butt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Initial climb and acceleration are very good and with crisp low speed handling will make a moderate mount for the experienced.
Scenario impact: This CANNOT be overstated. With combat on the Eastern Front taking place below 16,000ft and with an aircraft that in most respects can match the FW190A and BF109 F/G those looking to experience what the German pilots felt in 1943 may soon learn what it was really like. 4 BF109G's get jumped by 12 Yak-9D's that can out turn 109G and out climb FW190. What happens? Most BF pilots shot down with some losses to the Russians, i.e. Just like it really was by that time. The 109G2/6 cannot outrun the Yak9 and the G6 certainly cannot out turn it. Would make for a wonderful feel of the real Eastern air war. All in all she would have her place in Scenario and NOT in main arena.
Enjoy,
Grumbler
Formerly Ivan the Terrible on GEnie(AW/DOS)
Russian Aviation Buff
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"P-51D : Typical weight 7125lbs/1520HP = 4.6 lb/hp"
Whoa! That's an empty weight I think!
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This flight model sounds a lot like the early modeling of the c205V. Most people stayed out of it because it was fairly ineffective. Give me the Yak 3 instead! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Gross weight of the P-51D was 10,000 lbs, power load about 6.8. I think the Yak should out accellerate the P-51, almost everything else does.
Informative post Grumble, looking forward to the rest.
--ra--
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Well.... we currently have the La-5FN.
By your own criteria, you would have to move the Yak-9D from the number 1 slot also. It just wouldn't be competitive in the main arena. It also wouldn't even be used much, since whatever it can do, the Spit MkIX could do better.
But (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I totally agree on the Yak-3, Yak-9U, and the La-7 in that order.
Check out my thread in the General section titled Words of Wisdom from Luftwaffe Aces and Generals, its all about late war Soviet Aircraft and their performance.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Vermillion
Do not underestimate Yak-9D
Yak-9 was a plane which put the end to the LW superiority on the Eastern front in 1943.
Yak-9 was rather fast at the deck at middle altitudes (530 km/h at the deck not bad for early 1943), easy to fly, with nice harmony on controls, with quick roll rate (better than Spitfire btw), nice visibility from cocpit, easy take off and landing. In the end of 1943 the airframe of Yak-9s was little reworked (Yak-9M) for the unification with different versions.
So, as I wrote in another thread earlier, modelling one Yak-9 will give AH six different planes by simply changing loadouts:
Yak-9M 1x20mm SHVAK + 1x12,7mm UBS (basic fighter)
Yak-9T 1x37mm NS-37 spinner cannon + 1x12,7mm UBS (anti-bomber/M-16)
Yak-9K 1x45mm NS-45 spinner cannon + 1x12,7mm UBS (Panzer-IVs killer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
Yak-9D long range fighter
Yak-9DD longest range fighter (all fuel tanks are internal in Yak-9D and Yak-9DD)
Yak-9B light bomber with internal bomb loading.
Yakovlev fighters were in massive production during the WWII and they are very important for the complete Russian planeset as bf-109 for LW, Spitfire for RAF, P-51 for USA etc.
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I thought I've heard in my journeys through this bbs that LA-7 is next Russian plane to be modeled.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/190srip.gif)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-02-2000).]
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The LW did lost air superiority on the eastern front cause it was totaly out maned.
Even at the end of war the Russians with all the numbers had to mount 4 or 5 major offencives to knock out the Germans in the cortland pocket.A very small number of Fw190's stayed opernational till the end and exacted a toll on the Superior russian planes far out of perportion to their numbers.
It is realy interesting to read about the different air forces losses, east and west as aginst claims. All air forces claim many more than they actualy got.
see ya on line
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Aper, I am not arguing that the Yak-9 and its variants did a superb job during its time and had an impact on the war. But its impact was in 1943 and early 1944.
The problem lies in that our current planeset is centered in very late 1944 right up to the end of the war in mid 1945.
Thats why I argue for the Yak-9U, the 1944 variant with the more powerful VK107, that would be competitive with the other late war aircraft.
And I don't argue the art/FM model carry overs. Especially since Pyro stated that he wanted to develope planes that the art can be recycled for other models/variants.
But the truth of it is, if they model either the Yak-9 or Yak-3, with very few art changes you can model the entire Yak-1,Yak-7,Yak-9,Yak-3 series.
They are all very similar in appearance, and would easily produce the entire gamut of the Yakolev fighters series from wars start to wars end.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Vermillion, they look similar but if you look at the dimensions they aren't the same. No common parts could be used from Yak-3 to Yak-9 for example.
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"A large dogfight occurred on 16th June 1944. Both sides built up their forces, with the result that 18 Yak-3s opposed 24 German fighters, and 15 Luftwaffe aircraft were shot down for the cost of one Soviet fighter destroyed and one damaged. Next day, Luftwaffe activity over that section of the front had virtually ceased."
"During the tests[by 163 IAP of the Yak-9U], which continued almost to the end of 1944, 398 flights were made by the Yak-9Us and 299 air combats took place. According to the regiment's documentation the combat loss ratio was 28 to 2 in the Yak's favour. Moreover, in one of the two losses the pilot of the damaged aircraft managed to get back across the front line before bailing out."
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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I know Funked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But I meant that with most 3D art packages, scaling is a fairly simple function, and as you said they look very similar.
Wouldn't be an exact transfer of art, but should be much easier than starting from scratch for different aircraft.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-03-2000).]
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Vermillion, they look similar but if you look at the dimensions they aren't the same. No common parts could be used from Yak-3 to Yak-9 for example.
funked
IMHO it'll be not difficult for HTC art-designers to rework Yak-9 art to Yak-3 and vise versa.
From the other hand if Yak-9 is modeled its nose can be combined with La-5 airframe and we'll get the later version of LaGG-3 (with M-105pf) engine. (In 1943 the nose cowls of Yak-9 and LaGG-3 were unificated in production). So with the nose of Yak-9 and small rework of the fuselage of La-5FN
we'll get another mass-producted russian fighter - LaGG-3. (later series with M-105pf)
(http://ftp://ftp.diploma.ru/incoming/lagg3_late.jpg)
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Well, most fighting on eastern front was down low, and from my WB experiance i know one thing: YAK down low is SCARRY !!!
We had HA setup with 109G6 190A4 vs Yak9's ... you REALLY didn't want to fly 109 once you got lower then 15k...
It turns, climbs, rolls ... if it had better guns - it would be probably the best low level fighter ever...
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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funked, verm & aper:
OTOH, the Yak-3 was the only Yakushka that was of appreciably different dimensions. All, the other Yaks, -1, -7 and -9, are based off the same fuselage/wing dimensions, with slight changes in either. Well, aside from the raised rear fuselage of the early Yak-1 and the Yak-7.
fd ski:
Yes, I enjoyed the Yaks in WB. Another thing that many people were not aware of with the Yaks was that the reversed torque of the Klimov engine gave one an advantage in the right turn.
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 03-03-2000).]
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Gosh I'd love to see a nice simulation of Eastern Front combat. Lots of ground targets to keep the fights low, and all the airfields were close to the front. No need for silly terrain scaling or fuel multipliers.
Also IMHO the plane matchups are better than US/UK vs. Germany or US vs. Japan. Less running, more dogfighting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Agree all around guys.
The biggest reason I am so "pro" late war Yak fighter, is because the Yak-3 was my favorite fighter in WB's.
Plus I think either the Yak-9U or Yak-3(107) would be great additions to our planeset. Very powerful if flown correctly, but with corresponding weak points. Just like many of the other planes in the set currently.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-03-2000).]