Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on August 22, 2009, 05:24:49 PM
-
By the beginning of 1942 much had changed in the war in Europe. Operation 'Barbarossa', the Third Reich's invasion of the Soviet Union had begun in June of 1941. It had stalled at the gates of Moscow that winter with the Soviets desperately hanging on as they attempted to rebuild the army and air force. The German invasion of the USSR had also drawn Finland into the war for a second time, after a brief armistice between Finland and the Soviets in the aftermath of the 'Winter War' between 1939 and 1940. In the northern sector, the Baltic Sea city of Leningrad had been under seige by the Axis since September of 1941 with no sign of victory yet in sight. Throughout the winter of 1941-42 Allied aid had continued to the Soviets via Murmansk and other routes with vital supplies of combat aircraft and other vital war material to keep the Red Army in the conflict as the Soviet Union labored to rebuild its industrial capacity. Domestic Soviet aircraft like the workhorse I-16 were joined by P-40s, P-39s, Hurricanes and other western types. Some 18 percent of all combat aircraft used by the USSR in WW2 were of foreign manufacture, with more than 100 pilots achieving ace status flying them.
For the Luftwaffe's part, her fighter arm would see its zenith on the Eastern Front with many aces achieving victories above the century mark. The Finnish Air Force fighter squadrons would also add their own impressive chapter in air combat, flying a small mix of fighter planes from both the west and Germany during the years fighting the USSR from 1939-1944.
This FSO will recreate the contest between these combatants when the war in the East was still less than a year old, and would ultimately claim the lives of tens of millions on both sides.
Country Percentages:
Axis 50%
Allied 50%
Field Assignments:
Axis Bishop
Allied Knight
CM Rook
OOB:
Allied (Soviet):
AC-
I-16 (48 min)
P-39D (20 min-24 max)
P-40E (20 min-24 max)
Hurricane IIC (20 min-24 max)
IL-2 'Sturmovik' (20 min)
B-25C Glass nose bomber (20 min)
GV-
T-34/76 (24 min-32 max)
M3 halftrack (10 min-18 max)
Jeep (optional only, drawn from tank or halftrack assigned players)
Axis (German/Finnish):
AC-
Bf 109E-4 (48 min)
Bf 109F-4 (20 min-24 max)
Brewster B-239 (20 min-36 max)
Bf 110C-4/b (20 min-24 max)
Ju-87D 'Stuka'(20 min)
Ju-88A (20 min)
GV-
Panzer IVH (20 min-24 max)
SdKfz 251 halftrack (10 min-18 max)
Jeep (optional only, drawn from tank or halftrack assigned players)
Special Rules and Ordnance Restrictions: The B-25 is restricted to the glass nose bomber varient. The IL-2 is not permitted the 37mm option. All other ordnance options are permitted. Bomber formations are off. There will be one GV battle per frame, starting at T+0 and lasting 45 minutes. The Jeeps are *optional* and MUST BE DRAWN FROM TANK OR HALFTRACK ASSIGNED PLAYERS ONLY. They are included to give the GV Tank and Halftrack units some scouting flexibility if they want them. All GV players will get a 2nd life at T+45; Axis in 109E-4s, Allies in I-16s. These 2nd life rides do not count towards the min-max limits.
Scoring:
Aircraft Pts
------------
Bombers = 5 pts
All other aircraft = 2 pts
GV Pts
------
Tanks = 2 pts
Halftracks = 1 pt
Jeeps = 0.5 pt
Ground Target Pts
-----------------
Gun = 0.1 pts
Ammo Bunker = 3 pts
Barracks = 3 pts
Radar = 3 pts
Vehicle Hangar = 25 pts
Fighter Hangar = 25pts
Bomber Hangar = 25 pts
Town Building = 3 pts
Factory at strategic target = 3 pts
Truck in convoy = 1 pt
Train = 2 pts
Base Capture = 25 pts
Arena Settings:
- Ardens08 terrain (Karelia is not yet available)
- Fuel burn 1.0
- Icons short (3k)
- 0.5 Ack
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 42,000 (about 8 miles)
- Tower range set to 42,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Haze/fog full visability (17 miles)
- Radar off
- Enemy Collisions On
- Friendly collisions off
- Killshooter off
- Time: 15:00 ( 3PM ) Game Clock
- Formations: Off
- Bomber calibration: Auto ( MA style )
- Wind: 0-2K NO WIND
2K-18K N TO S - Speed 5
18K-25K NW TO SE - Speed 10
25k+ NW TO SE - Speed 15
Designer's Notes: There are Russian skins available in the AH download section for all the US a/c types and the Hurricane. The Bf 109E variant used most commonly at this time was the Bf 109E-7, which the Bf 109E-4 will stand in for. 1/2 of Soviet fighter aviation at the time of 'Barbarossa' was using the I-16 'Rata' and was used in large #s throughout 1941-2. The Brewster B-239 is the Finnish Air Forces most celebrated WW2 fighter and represents their contribution in this setup. Aircraft will not be assigned to the GV battle in this particular event to give the tankers a pure armored engagement.
Please note the updated rules:
http://ahevents.org/fso-related/fso-rules.html
Design by Warloc
-
Citation for 109E-7 on Leningrad front in Spring of 42?
I don't think the Il-2-3M was active there, so probably need to restrict it to 23mm.
What about Hurri mk I for axis?
Sorry for all the comments. Looks like a fun FSO.
-
Could we expect that Karelia will be done at any point through this FSO? Or are you predicting it to be done solely on Ardennes?
BTW, though I imagine this was done for gameplay reasons- by mid 1942, the first Gustavs started trickling in; I think the only units that still had the E model were JG5 and others not so close to the center of the action.
Looks like it will be a fun FSO, I can't wait! I love Eastern Front scenarios.
-
An addendum, now on the AH Events version. Initial strikes MUST be completed by T+45 not T+60. This is a special rule for this setup for the I-16, which has a very short range, even throtted back with DTs really cant be in the air for more than @50min or so with 5 minutes of combat flying at burn 1.0. I will be reminding all CiCs in the objectives in firm language of the change. It will still be at a disadvanatge, as it will not not able to be at full combat power for as long as the other fighters.
Arden is the terrain that will be used in all three frames, and makes for a very good "northern european forest". My understanding is Karelia needs more work yet, we will use it next time around. The Terrain Team is doing a great job of getting out what we need as the new version of AH has required more for them to do.
Re the Bf 109E series, I have several sources, but I always use this excellent site to do a quick dbl chk, based on Bundesarchiv records, that indicate JG5 used it into 1942, and fought in the Leningrad area:
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bjagd.htm
Of course it was supplanted by the 109F and later, the Fw190 as 1942 wore on, but it makes for a very good opponent for the I-16 in this setup (being faster by a wide margin), with both sides having 3 other more capable fighters each.
The Hurricane I was never exported to the VVS, and the IL-2 we have will just have to make due, I have to work with what we have, like everybody else I wish we had more to use. The 109G and Fw190 are later in 1942, and if I went with those a/c, obviously, it changes the plane set on both sides. The last EF setup I did was 1943, and had them both. In this setup I wanted an early plane set, that was workable for balance.
I am going to use your suggestion on the IL-2, it is an ealry version I am looking for, and I will impose a restriction on the 37mm. Something I overlooked.
-
Very interesting set-up. I look forward to taking part in this one. I love EW FSOs
:salute
-
Errrr, I should have been more clear. Does your citation support 66% of 109s in the Leningrad area being E7s? That seems like a surprisingly large figure.
For instance, JG54 was active in the Leningrad area and your site shows them to be entirely equipped with the 109F. Even III/JG5 is shown to be equipped with 13 F's out of 45 109s in March of '42, and they were one of the gruppe active in Finland.
The Hurricane I was never exported to the VVS, and the IL-2 we have will just have to make due, I have to work with what we have, like everybody else I wish we had more to use...I am going to use your suggestion on the IL-2, it is an ealry version I am looking for, and I will impose a restriction on the 37mm. Something I overlooked.
I was talking about the Hurricane Mk I for the Finns, i.e. the axis forces. ;)
Anyway, this is going to be a fun FSO whichever side I fly for. Thanks for your research.
-
Copy re the Hurricane, yes I did consider it for the FAF, but the Axis already have 6 a/c types, and a 7th type started making it problematic to get the min #s ect, considering we also have a GV battle. The FAF also only had @ 12 of the type, making it rather rare, so ultimately I passed on it. If I went with late 1941? ya I probably would have put it in.
Not sure about the exact ratios re the 109s, in the end it was what worked, almost every FSO and SEA event has to deal with that. Even events where it is claimed the OOBs are "exact", they cant be, as far too many a/c types that AH does not have are not in the mix. We have no Yak-1, LaGG, MiG-3, He-111, ect ect, so worrying about it seems academic, as long as we are getting something that is historic, close to what types were used, and in some kind of reasonable balance, and ratios.
:salute
-
Ok. :salute
-
If the I-16s are flying defensive CAP just have them up 15 minutes in?
Even so they can reduce throttle for quite a while before having fuel issues.
-
...
I am going to use your suggestion on the IL-2, it is an early version I am looking for, and I will impose a restriction on the 37mm
...
Anyone know why HTC chose not to model the early single seat version of the Shturmovik, the one without the sweptback wings? Just curious.
Squire, thanks for this Eastern Front FSO! :salute
-
An addendum, now on the AH Events version. Initial strikes MUST be completed by T+45 not T+60.
Opens the door wider for organizing a second strike. Ex GVers could even get in on it. Fine by me as it was not much of an option in the last setup. Not saying that wasn't OK either. Variety is a good thing.
The timing of GVers upping planes and several other players being downed around the same time may warrant a strong reminder that COs are responsible for what their charges do. Lot of new faces in FSO.
-
Let's Rock :salute
-
Looks like a good plan!
Agree last frames distance pretty much made rearming a waste of time. Nice to see shorter distances and times, keep the action rolling.
Opens the door wider for organizing a second strike. Ex GVers could even get in on it. Fine by me as it was not much of an option in the last setup. Not saying that wasn't OK either. Variety is a good thing.
The timing of GVers upping planes and several other players being downed around the same time may warrant a strong reminder that COs are responsible for what their charges do. Lot of new faces in FSO.
-
I will be making a small change here, bomber formations will be ON. This is to encourage more late frame action, and I think B-25Cs and Ju-88s tend to be pretty vulnerable to the types of cannon and hvy mg armed fighters in this setup (Hurricane II, P-40E, 109F, P-39, 110C ect). Just for info.
-
Not a gripe, just an observation. Wanted to chime in on the plane sets. Obviously AH doesn't have a good number plane models that were operational during this time period but:
All of the information I've dug up for this time frame shows that there were 24 Hurricane MkIIBs shipped to Russia with British pilots in late 41 early 42...through the Baltic region...no MkIICs.
All of the P-40s were B and C versions starting late 1941, no E models until 1943. Somewhere in the range of 600 were shipped from the U.S.
The P-39s were the Q version minus the 2 wing mount .50 cal mg's and didn't start arriving until late 1942. No AP ammo for the .37mm either.
-
I have several books on Lend Lease VVS fighters, there were P-40Es in 1942, there were Hurricane IIs of various types 1941-2, some were converted with the 23mm and 12.7mm, some were IICs, some were IIBs. They were not just flown by the RAF 151 Wing. The Finns reported fighting them in the Leningrad region.
The P-39 version was not just the Q version. They received the Airacobra I (ex RAF), P-39D-1, D-2, P-39L/N/Q from 1942-44.
There was no AP ammo for the 37mm gun in any version of the P-39 in WW2.
That being said the region and the timeline planeset is stretched somewhat to fit the event. The biggest problem was pitting the I-16 vs an axis plane set. We cant do Russia mid 1941, because there are no Lend Lease ac present at all, which just leaves the I-16 and the IL-2. So the date has to be moved up. The map is a generic map of the Eastern Front, not an exacting duplication of an area. When we get Karelia up again, we can have a more precise region hopefully. Its representing the Nothern area mostly to include the Finns and the B-239 in the set, since thats the only area the Finns operated.
Strictly speaking, the plane set is authentic, but the ratios had to be adjusted to make it workable. So we have P-40/P-39/Hurricane vs 109F/B-239/110 as they "good" fighters, and the 109E and the I-16 as the "baseline" fighters. With the 109E as the better of the two.
-
With the 109E as the better of the two.
You're going to have to revise that opinion after this event is over. ;)
The 109E may be faster, but check this out:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=61&p2=100&pw=1>ype=2)
-
I would consider it the better of the two if the 109E is allowed to roam in its element. Not below 5k in a TB fight, where obviously the I-16 will love to be. Of course, many other variables will come to play on any engagement. I think they are a good matchup, in any case.
-
Squire, thank you for the clarification on the time line for this event. If the event is indeed depicting the time line between 1941 to 1943/44 then you should at least include the 190A-5 as the 190's appeared on the front lines near Leningrad in 1942. It is well documented that several Russian squadrons encountered 190s over the skies around Leningrad. I believe it was JG-54 in early 1943 that first got the 190s.
I know it's pretty late for such a discussion and normally the plane sets are as accurate as AH allows. As things sit with this event and the current plane sets, with no FW190s the timeline would be around winter 1941 to fall 1942...which precludes the Hurricane MkIID, P-40E, and P-39Q.
I'm not worried about "balance" if that's a question...balance doesn't belong in historical recreations.
As for the 37mm AP ammunition...look up the M80 standard armor piercing round that was developed specifically for the M4 37mm.
-
I'm not worried about "balance" if that's a question...balance doesn't belong in historical recreations.
I think you're missing the point of Special Events. "Historical Recreations" belong in the park on a Sunday afternoon with everyone dressing up in uniforms and marching around until they drop to the ground and play dead. ;)
Special events in AH are historically framed setups which allow both side equal chances of winning, surviving and fun.
-
I'm not worried about "balance" if that's a question...balance doesn't belong in historical recreations.
FSO's in my opinion have never been "historical" recreations. If they were, we would following battle plans of some general/admiral of the era, with one side probably using overwhelming force in the initial attack.
Not much fun there.
FSO's have always been about gameplay/fun, in other words balance.
In most cases each side starts out with historical (as much as possible) and for the most part equal resources. It is up to each CiC to plan and allocate these resources. This then filters down to the effectiveness and the ingenuity of each squadron, and finally the ability of each pilot. Much like it did during the real thing. This is perhaps as close as we come to a historical recreation.
-
Special events in AH are historically framed setups which allow both side equal chances of winning, surviving and fun.
Personally, if a person can't have fun without "balance"...fly a kite. The challenge of trying to beat those overwhelming odds should be the "fun factor"...unless you just don't like a challenge.
If balance is a determining factor, why even consider the equipment? Just take enable a couple of aircraft types, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, split the number of participants in half, give them targets and tell them they have an hour to get the job done...that's balance.
-
That may be your idea of fun, but when we design special events, we keep in mind that most players won't want to fly "targets" so everyone else can score kills. It's hard enough recruiting participants to some events without such handicaps and FSO is no different.
-
Gyrene, how would you setup the next scenario (Eastern front '45). Would you have 10 players flying for the Russians for every player flying for the Lufwaffe? Truly historical numbers in an event like that would mean most VVS pilots wouldn't even see an enemy the entire 3 hour frame.
-
Gyrene, how would you setup the next scenario (Eastern front '45). Would you have 10 players flying for the Russians for every player flying for the Lufwaffe? Truly historical numbers in an event like that would mean most VVS pilots wouldn't even see an enemy the entire 3 hour frame.
That's a really good question. The division of the number of players is a non-issue here since participating squads have picked a side to be on...just comes down to who shows up on fight night...if one side is outnumbered due to a lack of attendance, that's on them. Setting these things up with a "fun factor" for the arcade toon pile-its has to be a small nightmare...but in the long run it's worth it from a community standpoint.
If you want to use the Eastern front December 1944 to April 1945 for a timeline then you would find the sides fairly equal at the outset...with the Luftwaffe losing the most air and ground assets in the end just because they were fighting on too many fronts and losing their best people.
-
In FSO it's very possible not to get assigned to your side of preference, especially in PTO when most seem to want to fly Allied. We end up with balanced numbers because the FSO team assigns squads that way.
I think unhistorical side balancing is necessary just so that everyone has a chance for combat. I've flown in scenarios before where I spent two hours flying in circles waiting for the enemy to attack. It's historical, it's realistic, but it's very, very boring. FSO is a great event because you're almost guaranteed an opportunity for combat in the first hour.
-
The division of the number of players is a non-issue here since participating squads have picked a side to be on
That's not the way it works, the Admin CM assigns the squads to a side.
-
I think unhistorical side balancing is necessary just so that everyone has a chance for combat.
Yeah, very true...agreed.
My big objection to the balance thing is that I find people tend to use it as a crutch...or an excuse for poor execution and use of available resources. You know what I'm talking about, it's those people who don't like or can't handle a challenge...and are the first to yell about "balance" in some manner.
-
There were no Bf 109Gs (of any kind) in the spring of 1942, there were no Fw190A-5s either. The plane set is balanced, and is based on the OOB for the time period. You seriously think im going to pit I-16s vs a fighter thats 100 mph faster?
Its an early 42 setup on the Northern Front.
We did an EF setup (one of my designs) called "Dogs of War", that was Fall 1943, and had those a/c. Next time, in all likelyhood, the next EF setup will be a 1944-45 setup and you can fly a late war LW ride then.
-
There were no Bf 109Gs (of any kind) in the spring of 1942, there were no Fw190A-5s either. The plane set is balanced, and is based on the OOB for the time period. You seriously think im going to pit I-16s vs a fighter thats 100 mph faster?
Its an early 42 setup on the Northern Front.
We did an EF setup (one of my designs) called "Dogs of War", that was Fall 1943, and had those a/c. Next time, in all likelyhood, the next EF setup will be a 1944-45 setup and you can fly a late war LW ride then.
Ok so "early 1942" spring to be exact. There were no Hurricane MkIIc's there then either.
Look up No. 151 Wing RAF...started out with 24 Hurricane MkIIb's in August 1941 then received another 15 in October (?) 1941...the RAF ceased operations and handed over all of the remaining Hurricane MkIIb's to the Soviets in October 1941. That was it because by 1942 the Soviets had started building their own superior aircraft and didn't want any more Hurricanes.
-
I think unhistorical side balancing is necessary just so that everyone has a chance for combat. I've flown in scenarios before where I spent two hours flying in circles waiting for the enemy to attack. It's historical, it's realistic, but it's very, very boring. FSO is a great event because you're almost guaranteed an opportunity for combat in the first hour.
Your right on the money. Unhistorical side balancing is often very necessary. I have experienced the same in scenarios, but they fill a niche for many players. As for FSO, that is one of the keys to its success IMHO. The very high opportunity for combat along side your squadies on a weekly basis.
-
Well, for starters exact data about any specific type of Allied a/c to the Soviet Union is typically very hard to come by, if not downright impossible, so I would wonder when you say "no Hurricane Mk IICs" exactly what your definitive source for that is. The VVS received, and this is by post was documentation, some 1130 Mk IICs during the war. Secondly, and this needs to be understood for a variety of types; SEA events typically have to rely on sub varients to fill in gaps in the plane set. Would I like Hurricane IIBs? sure, would I like the converted Hurricane IIB with the 23mm and 12.7mm? yes, but I dont have them to work with. So we make due.
The problem with moving the time period, lets say we were...to late 1942 is this; we dont have, as yet in AH, a domestic VVS a/c like the Yak-1, MiG-3 or LaGG-3. We would have to use all Lend-Lease types to counter the 109Gs and Fw190s et al, and im not so fond of that idea. So, that leaves us with a mid 1943+ set, which includes the Yak-9T, LA-5FN, ect, or we go into 1944-45 with LA-7 and Yak-9U, vs the usuall types of Luftwaffe rides. I have run both those before; "Summer Storm", and "Dogs of War".
So, back to this setup. I had to try and find a time period that did two things. Firstly, to use the I-16 in large #s, as well as the B-239 Why? because FSO is about variety, and these types we have not had in AH untill just the last update. This is the very first FSO either has been used. So, I have to say what time period and region can I get these two fighters in there, and have other a/c as well to help fill them out? that brings us to something post 1941 invasion, but not so far into 1942 that we don't end up with the I-16 dodging Fw190s that zoom past it like it was a truck at a four way stop.
Thus, the setup we have. 1942, before summer, in a region which included the Finns. The next time I run EF, it will likely be somewhere in 1943-45, again, for variety.
Regards.
-
Hey, I don't totally disagree with you...limited plane types forces the use of different equipment.
I stand corrected...my apologies
Since the time line is as you specified (Spring 1942) the 109E and F series is correct...the G series didn't arrive until later...and the 190s didn't start arriving until 1943.
There are considerable numbers of differing documentation on exactly how many and what type of Hurricanes the Russians received...no idea why that is...probably due to the shipping loses in transit...but pretty much the line is Hurricane MkIIb and P-40s until summer 1942 when "modified" Hurricanes were deployed to combat.
-
Or, I could have run it with I-16s and a late 1942 setup, but then its "I-16 (min 24)" where its a minority type, but thats not what I had in mind. Yes, the OOBs for Russian a/c are not easy to get, and there are many conflicting sources. I cant say all the ones I have are proof positive 100 percent correct either, sometimes you just go with what you have, and try to get something that works. I certainly always had it in mind to limit the Hurricanes, which is why they are capped at 24 per frame, as well as the other types. Its a design decision to include them, next time I could leave them out, or not. It all depends on the mix.