Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: FiLtH on August 24, 2009, 10:55:19 AM

Title: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: FiLtH on August 24, 2009, 10:55:19 AM
   Create an arena where the sole purpose is aerial combat between an allied bomber force with escorts vs axis fighters. No captures. Somewhat like the AVA but no captures.

   Certain nights of the week people could plan missions, a "Target for Tonight" type thing. The targets would be strat facilities. The object to promote air to air combat at higher alts and not worry about "gettin the goon in!" It would be a cool arena for squads to hold a mission in for their squad nights.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: fudgums on August 24, 2009, 10:55:48 AM
combat Tour  :(
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: FiLtH on August 24, 2009, 01:48:54 PM
  Ya thats pretty much what I was thinking.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 24, 2009, 01:57:32 PM
Combat tour was supposed to include so many more features. Perhaps a arena like this is doable. I do not know what map size is the limit but the BoB map is too small to accurately simulate raids into Germany and the Rhine map does not include the channel. For some of us it would be amazing to simulate life-size events even if it is on a smaller scale (not as many aircraft involved) with running battles between bombers trying to penetrate to target and defending fighters trying to pick off as many as possible. Historically the Luftwaffe fighters sometimes did 2 or more sorties against the same bomber mission, if they were lucky enough to escape unharmed it was just to rearm refuel and go up again. This could leave practically the entire Luftwaffe jagdgruppen displaced overnight as they set down on any available airfield after combat.

Anyway, I like the idea.  :aok
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Anaxogoras on August 24, 2009, 02:05:23 PM
So you want a late war ETO arena?
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 24, 2009, 03:54:06 PM
A dedicated late-war ETO arena would be great yes. Don't know if it's what the OP was looking for though. My idea would be like a AvA arena on steroids. I do not know how many and exactly which features were completed before they pulled the plug on CT, but having tools for mission planning and leading flights in the air would be welcome.

One of the basic flaws with AH imo is the setup without countries. The strength of the rook/bish/knit setup is also its weakness. Strip some of the features of CT (include some AI planes/raids to give ppl incentive to log on???), give us a permanent late-war ETO arena without base capturing, perhaps with a rolling planeset, and the LW bunch would have a firm home in this game. The same could be done for the pacific theatre to provide for that crowd. These arenas would instead count strategic destruction rates but only when the number of people in the arena is above a certain mark and on both sides in order to avoid off-hrs dweebery.

The whole strategic and supply system in AH needs to be revised in order to provide the bomber dudes with a wider range of targets. Currently bombing a ammo or radar factory in a MA is a waste of time.


I'm sure someone will take the time to completely trash my ideas. I'm not going to argue if that's the case because what I'm saying is that this is what some of us would like to see in the game and I personally think it would be a fresh breath of air for this game. AH has a lot of potential it's just a matter of what HTC see as worth spending time on to keep customers paying for it and/or gain new customers.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Guppy35 on August 24, 2009, 03:54:30 PM
   Create an arena where the sole purpose is aerial combat between an allied bomber force with escorts vs axis fighters. No captures. Somewhat like the AVA but no captures.

   Certain nights of the week people could plan missions, a "Target for Tonight" type thing. The targets would be strat facilities. The object to promote air to air combat at higher alts and not worry about "gettin the goon in!" It would be a cool arena for squads to hold a mission in for their squad nights.

I like the idea but I'm not sure how you implement it where numbers would make it viable.  Think about the effort that went into coordinating the DGS scenario with those 17 and 24 raids with escorts vs the LW.  Great fun, but I don't know how you could just up and do it without some warning,

It would be a bit of a let down for the escort guys if no one showed up to oppose the raid :)
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 24, 2009, 03:59:17 PM
If there's a large enough crowd doing it on a regular basis it becomes less of a problem. We'd see squads actually flying in their historical role as escorts, bombers, interceptors etc.

This could draw a lot of interest, we know the FSOs are very popular. If something similar can be organized regularly with less effort it could attract a lot of people, even new people. God knows the FSO crowd is craving for more of the same!  :D
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: FiLtH on August 24, 2009, 04:59:59 PM
   I was thinking we could put up a mission chart, with dates for each mission, show losses etc. Theres lot of guys who love that stuff. At first Im sure it would be a small crowd, but it would grow if players put effort into it.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: texastc316 on August 24, 2009, 05:14:37 PM

Don't stop. I like where yall are goin
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: jdbecks on August 24, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
or with set objectives for each mission, for example the allies destroy X,Y,Z factories and the axis have to kill x amount of bombers and once the objectives have been met the arena resets to another random map. each plalyer has unlimited lifes also.

you can have alot of varied and different maps, like in the pacific you have to find and sink the other teams fleet etc
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Stampf on August 24, 2009, 05:32:17 PM
I know 26 guys who would gladly assume the dedicated Axis intercept role, nightly.

Great idea!
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 24, 2009, 06:01:06 PM
Ok so did this discussion die?

Nobody really want a good historical arena, are you happy with the dweebery of the AvA setup? A half-arsed attempt to create something to please all, which is impossible. Being a historically based game, one would think that the recreation of historical battles and conditions would interest the crowd. HTC took a major step off that route just by going the rook/bish/knit way, which is a godawful mess if you ask me.

Come on, give the RAF and USAF a Bomber Command and pit the Jagdwaffe against them... it would be a main arena on a epic scale.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: FiLtH on August 24, 2009, 08:11:27 PM
  Our squad would be in there alot.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: boingg on August 24, 2009, 08:13:36 PM
Yes  I support this 100%  :salute
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 24, 2009, 08:59:36 PM
We could even have circuses and rhubarbs!   :lol
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Guppy35 on August 24, 2009, 10:14:40 PM
Ok so did this discussion die?

Nobody really want a good historical arena, are you happy with the dweebery of the AvA setup? A half-arsed attempt to create something to please all, which is impossible. Being a historically based game, one would think that the recreation of historical battles and conditions would interest the crowd. HTC took a major step off that route just by going the rook/bish/knit way, which is a godawful mess if you ask me.

Come on, give the RAF and USAF a Bomber Command and pit the Jagdwaffe against them... it would be a main arena on a epic scale.

I don't think the issue will be lack of folks who'd fly it.  I think it would be timing, how to make sure the LW guys don't get bored sitting on the ground waiting for the bombers to form up, and making sure the sides are fair enough to make it a good fight.

Again using DGS as an example.  My 38 Group escorted the Buffs 3 of 4 frames and it was pushing three hours with much of it form up and return to base time.  No one minded because we knew the deal and were into it.  Somehow you have to sell that idea to the masses though.

Are you going 1 life as well?  It would be a bit of a pain for an escort guy to do all that forming up, covering buffs and rtb'ing on one flight while he has the same LW guy potentially upping over and over again to get another shot.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: John Curnutte on August 24, 2009, 10:18:34 PM
 This could be fun , and a welcome change from the main arenas . I would enjoy that , it could lead to better formation flying , bomber boxes , etc.
Goals and planning with clear precise objectives , who wouldn't like it if your into historical stuff . Nice idea .
                        Nutte :salute
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: morfiend on August 24, 2009, 11:11:16 PM
With some clever usage of AI flights incorperated this has some real possibilities!

 If there was a lack of buff fliers,add AI,escorts or LW pilots could be supplimented as well.

 I really like this idea, although I see a few issues would need to be addressed.


   :salute
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: FiLtH on August 24, 2009, 11:36:06 PM
  Corky I was thinking more along the lines where its open all the time. If a couple guys get in there during down times to milk its no biggy. The emphasis is on larger battles which could be planned by players around primetimes, like 9pm et US, and other times for other time zones. People could plan on showing up with their squad or unit to attend the mission for that night.

  Like I said, at first it would probably be slow, but Im sure alot of the AvA guys would want to come. As it became more known time would tell if there were enough of us to make it work.

   I picture some of the guys good with photoshop making newspaper headlines describing battles, of the week etc. Like FSOs squads could award heroes and make it much more immersive.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: BnZs on August 25, 2009, 09:44:46 AM
Honestly, this isn't a bad idea. ETO is probably the theater of the war popular enough to support an arena dedicated to it.

If they did something like this though, I'd kind of like it to have a rolling plane set, starting with the beginning of the 8th's strategic bombing campaign and ending in 1945.

I'd also say, maybe air starts? I know we want realism, high-altitude is realistic for the ETO, but spending an hour crossing the channel and climbing to 25K might try the patience.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: fudgums on August 25, 2009, 09:57:41 AM
Id be there
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 25, 2009, 03:54:18 PM
I'd also say, maybe air starts? I know we want realism, high-altitude is realistic for the ETO, but spending an hour crossing the channel and climbing to 25K might try the patience.

 :lol

Yeah, maybe the rhinemap will do fine for this. Or alter between BoB map (40-43 timeframe) and the rhinemap (44-45).
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: akbmzawy on August 26, 2009, 06:44:49 PM
Personally I would love to be in the bomber command rolling against larger targets for carpet bombing. There are some of us AKs that would love this also. Tight formations would make a challenge for the Luftwaffe.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 26, 2009, 06:55:12 PM
Tight formations would make a challenge for the Luftwaffe.

 :aok

 :x :rock
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: olskool2 on August 26, 2009, 07:05:12 PM
How hard would it be to generate missions? Give them a set time to begin, find out a good ratio of buffs:escorts:intercepters, and have the computer plan missions around certain airways or bases. It would have to be done in a way that still requires some skill in actually finding the enemy.

Edit: Have the 'frame' set to begin at 7:30 for buffs, 8:00 for everyone else. If you register for the mission at 6:30, you can play in any other arena during the wait time.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: mike254 on August 26, 2009, 09:17:20 PM
I also would go regularly.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: APDrone on August 27, 2009, 12:36:59 PM
A couple game developments need to be made to make this practical.  Primarily  dealing with field activation, the mission editor, and scheduling.

1. Arena setting only allowing takeoff via an active mission. 
2. Assigned skins for mission flights. ( not really necessary, but would add a bit to the environment )
3. Automated field activation/de-activation with mission roll/cut-off times.
4. In additon to being able to load a single mission, you could load a stack of missions.
5. CMs would be able to load missions for all sides simultaneously. ( probably a pretty hefty programming effort for this one.. but it simplifies the coordination between sides when setting mission launch times and targets. )
6. Waypoint visibility after mission launches.

Details:

1. This would carryover to snapshots also.  No more need to hound people about what to fly or balancing.. just set up the mission and people join.  Those that don't join mission don't fly.

2. self explanatory

3. Fields don't need to be activated by CMs. They can just go off automatically.

4. An evenings worth of missions could be preloaded.. perhaps launching every 15 minutes.  You log in.. find a mission you want and either join then, or come back when the starting time is closer.  Also, a CM could log in, upload a days worth of missions, then leave.  No need to be around to babysit the arena. Also, the CMs could tweak the order and composition of a days missions ahead of time.

5. Just to prevent a snafu where launches get out of whack.  For instance, if a stack of missions for bombers is out of order with the opposing base defense missions. Wrong targets, for instance.  Being able to view all mission stacks at the same time would help keeping them in sync.

6.  Minimize confusion as to which flight is going where, keep the waypoints secret until mission launches.

I think the arena would rock, myself.

 :salute OP 
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 27, 2009, 02:23:39 PM
APDrone all good stuff there.  :aok

It would be nice to be able to go into the arena, see which missions are to be launched in the next 24 hrs, or 12 hrs, then reserve a spot for yourself in a mission. This way anyone can log into the arena and see how many people are expected to show up. Perhaps a 24 hr or more delay on country switch would be good to prevent people from spying. Well either that route or just keep it open as people have a tendency to do whatever it takes to spy, 2nd accounts and all that.

Anyway, it would be nice to be able to reserve a spot if you intend to fly a mission. Then you'd be able to see hours in advance how many are expected. Walkons could be accepted if people don't show up.

This would be a kick arse arena.  :rock
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: FiLtH on August 27, 2009, 03:34:37 PM
 Good ideas, but I dont know about reserving a spot. Doing reservations for a major event is one thing, we make time for that. But day to day play in an arena is bound to have people breaking reservations. Maybe instead, the server could see once a mission nears its limit, it adds slots to it, or maybe it just makes each mission have a very high number of slots.

  To keep it simple though, simply having an arena to go to, that has nothing to do with captures,furballs,and gvs, but instead, air combat at high altitudes,with one thing in mind "Stop the bombers", or in the case of the bomber guys,"Flatten the target", and the escort guys "Lets get em there!"
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: olskool2 on August 27, 2009, 04:06:05 PM
A couple game developments need to be made to make this practical.  Primarily  dealing with field activation, the mission editor, and scheduling.

1. Arena setting only allowing takeoff via an active mission. 
2. Assigned skins for mission flights. ( not really necessary, but would add a bit to the environment )
3. Automated field activation/de-activation with mission roll/cut-off times.
4. In additon to being able to load a single mission, you could load a stack of missions.
5. CMs would be able to load missions for all sides simultaneously. ( probably a pretty hefty programming effort for this one.. but it simplifies the coordination between sides when setting mission launch times and targets. )
6. Waypoint visibility after mission launches.

Details:

1. This would carryover to snapshots also.  No more need to hound people about what to fly or balancing.. just set up the mission and people join.  Those that don't join mission don't fly.

2. self explanatory

3. Fields don't need to be activated by CMs. They can just go off automatically.

4. An evenings worth of missions could be preloaded.. perhaps launching every 15 minutes.  You log in.. find a mission you want and either join then, or come back when the starting time is closer.  Also, a CM could log in, upload a days worth of missions, then leave.  No need to be around to babysit the arena. Also, the CMs could tweak the order and composition of a days missions ahead of time.

5. Just to prevent a snafu where launches get out of whack.  For instance, if a stack of missions for bombers is out of order with the opposing base defense missions. Wrong targets, for instance.  Being able to view all mission stacks at the same time would help keeping them in sync.

6.  Minimize confusion as to which flight is going where, keep the waypoints secret until mission launches.

I think the arena would rock, myself.

 :salute OP 


All of this.  :aok
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: akbmzawy on August 27, 2009, 05:19:21 PM
Who would be the one person ( or 2, or 3, etc- etc) that could make this all happen? If they would?
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: fudgums on August 27, 2009, 05:28:55 PM
Jaeger and I tried it for AvA. Maybe Filth would have more diplomatic power. :D
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Stoney on August 27, 2009, 06:00:41 PM
simply having an arena to go to, that has nothing to do with captures,furballs,and gvs, but instead, air combat at high altitudes,with one thing in mind "Stop the bombers", or in the case of the bomber guys,"Flatten the target", and the escort guys "Lets get em there!"

I'm all about this.  Filth, if you can think of any leg work that needs to be done, let me know.  I would love an "8th AF Arena" with no base captures.  Perhaps we could even use the "deathcount" setting at 15-20 mins to make the Quake crowd stay away.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: John Curnutte on August 27, 2009, 10:08:33 PM
 This has great possibility's to it , just think your having an off night in the MA and hey I can just fly a mission in Bomber Arena . and it would be loads of fun . Many solid ideas and by the looks of it lots of support . the historical aspect is awesome .
                     Nutte :salute
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Scherf on August 27, 2009, 10:17:21 PM
I'm all about this.  Filth, if you can think of any leg work that needs to be done, let me know.  I would love an "8th AF Arena" with no base captures.  Perhaps we could even use the "deathcount" setting at 15-20 mins to make the Quake crowd stay away.

What, no jabos?

Simply not cricket, old boy!

Jenkins! Another brandy!
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Scotty55OEFVet on August 27, 2009, 11:36:07 PM
I think that this is a great idea.  Now, dont get me wrong, everyone likes a good furball every now and then, but many of us would really like to fly historical or near historical missions.  Concerning the issue of numbers...you would need a few guys to run it like AvA, but maybe have a forum here wher each week you post the mission.  Say...a 17 raid on Bremen or Schweinfurt, and you have sign up lists for both the Allied Air Forces and the Luftwaffe.  Guys sign up as bomber pilots or fighter pilots, etc etc.  I really dont see the need for a practice night because a majority of the guys that will join are going to be the guys that have been playing and know how to fly in formations and the like.  What do you guys think??? :salute
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Fencer51 on August 28, 2009, 09:27:44 AM
Airspawns.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: RipChord929 on August 28, 2009, 09:45:34 AM
I've been looking for something NEW to do in game... This sounds like fun!!!
I'll have to start practicing with a 190, so I'm ready!!!

RC
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Speed55 on August 28, 2009, 05:23:37 PM
Keep the maps small, maybe 6 to 8 airfields per side so the action is concentrated, and if they still have them, the cities from CT spread around as targets.

By keeping the maps small, if you're late for a mission, at least you could still up as an escort or intercept.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 28, 2009, 05:43:22 PM
I don't think the people looking for a historical arena want another small-map-fast-action type of arena but more one that allow for the historical immersion of FSOs but without the planning and preparation required of a FSO. A small map would take that away to a large extent, it's not supposed to be a furballing arena either there are plenty of those already. Like... every single one of them...  :huh
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Speed55 on August 28, 2009, 05:46:06 PM
That's true.  As i was typing i was thinking, what's to stop some idiot from  vulching missions.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: shotgunneeley on August 28, 2009, 05:51:12 PM
190's give my B-17's gas...

This is the 100th BG's bread 'n butter; we love doin stuff like this.  :rock

-
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: jimson on August 28, 2009, 09:51:39 PM
A couple game developments need to be made to make this practical.  Primarily  dealing with field activation, the mission editor, and scheduling.

1. Arena setting only allowing takeoff via an active mission.  
2. Assigned skins for mission flights. ( not really necessary, but would add a bit to the environment )
3. Automated field activation/de-activation with mission roll/cut-off times.
4. In additon to being able to load a single mission, you could load a stack of missions.
5. CMs would be able to load missions for all sides simultaneously. ( probably a pretty hefty programming effort for this one.. but it simplifies the coordination between sides when setting mission launch times and targets. )
6. Waypoint visibility after mission launches.

Details:

1. This would carryover to snapshots also.  No more need to hound people about what to fly or balancing.. just set up the mission and people join.  Those that don't join mission don't fly.

2. self explanatory

3. Fields don't need to be activated by CMs. They can just go off automatically.

4. An evenings worth of missions could be preloaded.. perhaps launching every 15 minutes.  You log in.. find a mission you want and either join then, or come back when the starting time is closer.  Also, a CM could log in, upload a days worth of missions, then leave.  No need to be around to babysit the arena. Also, the CMs could tweak the order and composition of a days missions ahead of time.

5. Just to prevent a snafu where launches get out of whack.  For instance, if a stack of missions for bombers is out of order with the opposing base defense missions. Wrong targets, for instance.  Being able to view all mission stacks at the same time would help keeping them in sync.

6.  Minimize confusion as to which flight is going where, keep the waypoints secret until mission launches.

I think the arena would rock, myself.

 :salute OP  


This is quite an idea.

An arena that automatically launches Snapshot Scenarios every hour or half hour or whatever.

Might be more do-able than you would think.

There would have to be a minimum number of participants for the mission to launch. After the min is reached there would have to be automatic side balancing.

Once you select, a slot specific MOTD could come up and only the appropriate vehicle, field and launch time would be enabled for you.

It might have to be limited to running the same mission over and over all day, I just can't imagine a different scenario every 30 minutes or so as being practical.

Look at all the elements that we already have that could be adapted to this idea.

First of all we already have a ton of these scenarios that could be adapted.

Automatic arena and ENY balancing could surely be adapted to side balancing.

Offline missions that "time out" Same principal could be used here.

Automatic enabling of only the appropriate per player vehicle, fields, launch times. Similar things are being done already.

Not to mention whatever "Combat Tour" work that was shelved, that might could be adapted.

There are some of us who are really interested in historical scenarios but can't make the events.

Something like this that ran several times a day would be awesome. It could run all the time if it was automated, especially if AI could fill unclaimed slots.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: Gary26 on August 28, 2009, 10:19:00 PM
AvA used to be the CT. They would turn off captures every now and then. I played in there for 3 years before I cam into MA.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: stealth on August 28, 2009, 11:11:16 PM
I think it's cool the way I heard it sounded pritty cool but still it's just a game but I like it.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: AKRaider on August 28, 2009, 11:48:12 PM
I'd support this.  Great idea.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: akbmzawy on August 30, 2009, 07:16:32 AM
Seems like this thread is going to die. Sigh.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 30, 2009, 07:51:06 AM
Well, the day-to-day game is lacking big time in historically based gameplay. I don't even want to touch on the topic of the AvA arena and why it's not attracting people, but let's face it, it's not attracting people and for numerous reasons.

What is proposed in this thread is a new approach and something that I and obviously many others believe is much much needed in AH. See how many people get involved in the FSOs every month. This would be a arena catering for their needs.

Not everyone want to capture bases, not everyone want to furball at 3k. There are a number of gameplay features in the MAs that a fair portion of the AH community doesn't feel is needed, actually, for some it takes away a lot of the fun from the game.

So if anyone from HTC is reading this, please consider what is suggested in this thread.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 30, 2009, 07:52:30 AM
double post
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: FiLtH on August 30, 2009, 08:53:35 AM
  I asked Stoney to discuss it with the CMs and see if they can then suggest it to HTC.  Beyond that...this is wishlist :)

 
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: akbmzawy on August 30, 2009, 02:02:43 PM
Would it be possible to start with the Axis and Allies map, which is alreday here to coordinate a specific time to gather to start this idea and make it grow? I don't have the technical capabilities to start any formal process, but I think something could start there.
Title: Re: A dedicated Bomber Command Arena
Post by: 33Vortex on August 30, 2009, 02:37:23 PM
I won't go near the AvA, it's a dead concept, bury it. Do this as something new and fresh instead of trying to revive an old monster.