Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: REVRAND on August 28, 2009, 08:16:05 AM
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With the track record of this aircraft why is it that in can out turn almost anything...........? How can it keep up speed with many....? And correct me if I am wrong but isn't the default skin GERMAN.....?
The Brewster fighter's only U.S. combat use, on 4 June 1942 during the Battle of Midway, dramatically showed the inferiority of the F2A-3 when confronted by the Japanese Navy's "Zero" carrier fighters and well-trained aviators. In a brief battle against greatly superior numbers, Midway Island's Marine Fighting Squadron 221 (VMF-221) lost thirteen of twenty F2A-3s. Soon after, the "Buffalo" was removed from combat units and assigned to advanced training duty. In that role, it helped new U.S. fighter pilots enhance their skills before they joined operational squadrons. The aging F2A-2s and F2A-3s remained in the training mission into 1943, and a few were still in service in 1944-45.
F2A-3 characteristics:
Dimensions: Wing Span, 35 feet; Length, 26 feet, 4 inches; Wing Area, 209 square feet.
Weights: Empty, 4894 pounds; Gross, 7253 pounds
Powerplant: One 1200 horsepower Wright R-1820-40 radial engine.
Armament: Four .50 caliber machine guns (two firing forward through the engine cowling; one in each wing).
Performance (at gross weight): Maximum Speed, 320 m.p.h. (@ 14,500 feet
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With the track record of this aircraft why is it that in can out turn almost anything...........? How can it keep up speed with many....? And correct me if I am wrong but isn't the default skin GERMAN.....?
(http://www.opaquelucidity.com/facepalm.jpg)
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The skin is Finnish, not German.
The Brewster in game is different from that which fought at midway. It is significantly lighter and has a different engine. Turn radius may be a bit tighter than it should be, but not gratuitously so.
Also, try a search...you'll find plenty of other threads in this vein.
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(http://www.opaquelucidity.com/facepalm.jpg)
I've always preferred this one:
(http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/facepalm.jpg)
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Finland never got the updated versions.........and so by this statement below we do not have the B-239 but the XF2A-2.....
The original prototype got the stronger 1200 hp R-1820-40 engine and also other modifications were made, eg. the nose was shortened to maintain the center of gravity in right place. The prototype which was marked as XF2A-2 had also better performance than it's predecessor, speed increased 20 mph although the empty weight also increased 191 kg. The US Navy ordered 43 of the new F2A-2 planes to replace the planes which went to Finland, the rest of the F2A-1 planes were also modified to the new standard.
The US Navy got more aircraft carriers when the war expanded, also the need of carrier based fighters rapidly increased. The last 108 Brewster F2A-3 model fighters were ordered in January 1941. This version had longer nose, more armour and increased ammunition capacity. Due to this it's empty weight was already 463 kg more than that of the F2A-1. Climb rate and agility decreased considerably. Top speed decreased 20 mph. According to one pilot F2A-2 was better than F4F Wildcat, but F2A-3 was incompetent.
The Brewster factory couldn't produce as much planes as was ordered and there were also many suspicions of malpractice. The company fell to the hands of the US authority in spring of 1942 due to poor management and because the deliveries were continuously late. Brewsters old rival F4F Wildcat took it's place on carriers, Grumman had improved it since 1938. Wildcat became the main fighter type on carriers and in all it was produced over 2000 planes.
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REVRAND, you really need to search this forum for discussions on the Brewster B-239. That will save much time.
Its performance is what it should be.... It is second only to the A6M2 in turning capability, as it should be.
It is a much different aircraft that the F2A-3, the Finn variant being a lightened F2A-1.
My regards,
Widewing
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Dude, if Zeros and FM2s are not striking terror into your heart in the MA, then neither should the Brewster. It is very fight-able and very avoidable with the right tactics.
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DUDE, ZEKES and FM-2'z in the right hands do wreak havoc and for example the ZEKE and FM-2 can be outrun for by the NIK.... but you can't say that about the Brewster. And I did search the forums for Brewster B-239 and nothing popped up. And if I seem to be wasting anyone precious minutes on the forums, there is no need to reply............ :salute
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oooops my bad ....found it.......apologies! :O
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DUDE, ZEKES and FM-2'z in the right hands do wreak havoc and for example the ZEKE and FM-2 can be outrun for by the NIK.... but you can't say that about the Brewster. And I did search the forums for Brewster B-239 and nothing popped up. And if I seem to be wasting anyone precious minutes on the forums, there is no need to reply............ :salute
The Brewster's top speed is slower than both the A6M5 and the FM-2 IIRC.
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Not in AH........
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Not in AH........
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=101&p2=25&pw=2>ype=0)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=101&p2=67&pw=2>ype=0)
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Don't care what the squiggley lines say.....come in the DA and see what the BREW is stirring up........ :salute
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Test it. Grab a stopwatch and test the two in level acceleration and find their top speeds at 0, 5, and 10kft.
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Don't care what the squiggley lines say.....come in the DA and see what the BREW is stirring up........ :salute
That's too bad, because the squiggley lines are how the aircraft performs at level flight in the game.
Also keep in mind the Brewster has good E-retention and dives quite well. It's VERY easy for a Brewster to dive to high speeds and then retain that airspeed for a while.
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That's too bad, because the squiggley lines are how the aircraft performs at level flight in the game.
Also keep in mind the Brewster has good E-retention and dives quite well. It's VERY easy for a Brewster to dive to high speeds and then retain that airspeed for a while.
What he said, I'll take technical data over people's observation any day of the week.
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Objectivity and a methodological approach aren't always held in the highest regard on this BBS
"Spit 14 outclimbs Me 163"
"Sherman has different ballistics now"
"Spit 16 can accelerate to while going directly up"
"You can't catch up with bombers at 10k in a TA 152"
And each time you will read something like "I don't care about the numbers, I KNOW it's that way" :rolleyes:
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That's too bad, because the squiggley lines are how the aircraft performs at level flight in the game.
Also keep in mind the Brewster has good E-retention and dives quite well. It's VERY easy for a Brewster to dive to high speeds and then retain that airspeed for a while.
Yep, very true Sax. Fortunately, we all realize that a Brewster and a Fw-190 D9 actually have the same maneuverability at say ~400mph IAS and are therefore we all realize that we are not necessarily as good as dead when a slower, more maneuverable craft converts alt to speed on us.
Actually I guess if we all realized this then the thread wouldn't exist...
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I'm yet to be shot down by a B-239, and there are some darn good pilots who fly the B-239. Hint: you don't have to wrongly think I'm Sierra Hotel to explain this fact.
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Objectivity and a methodological approach aren't always held in the highest regard on this BBS
"Spit 14 outclimbs Me 163"
"Sherman has different ballistics now"
"Spit 16 can accelerate to while going directly up"
"You can't catch up with bombers at 10k in a TA 152"
And each time you will read something like "I don't care about the numbers, I KNOW it's that way" :rolleyes:
:rofl
That's a lot of hyperbole...I've read this type of comments someplace else. I just can't remember who might have posted most of it. :noid
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Don't care what the squiggley lines say.....come in the DA and see what the BREW is stirring up........ :salute
LOLOLOLOL Nothing I couldn't stir up with an A6M2.....
My regards,
Widewing
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They need to add the Ki-43 so this guy can really whine about something that out turns him.
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Will try that Moot.......good idea
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Revrand, if I may ask: Are you a child?
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Regarding the performance of the Buffalo, I'd remembered reading a quote by Gregory "Pappy" Boyington regarding this plane and it's turning ability, so I Googled "Boyington" and "Brewster". This is what I found(Please note that Mr. Boyington was a somewat crude man, so I've edited out some of his language):
"In October, 1977, I had the privilege and honor to have a few fairly lengthy conversations in a relativly private atmosphere with Greg Boyington. He seemed a hard, inwardly angry man. By this I mean, he never had it easy and this came through in his demeanor. His speech was rather gruff, he rarely spoke unless spoken to first and his answers to questions came quickly, brusquely and to the point. He had no qualms about his liking of alcohol, constantly nursing beers as we spoke. Coors, as I recall.
I remember asking him about the Brewster Buffalo (Then, Now and Always, my favorite aircraft). I had no sooner finished saying the word 'Buffalo', when he slammed his beer can down on the table, and practicaly snarled, "It was a DOG!" (His emphasis). Then he slowly leaned back in his chair and after a moment quietly said, "But the early models, before they weighed it all down with armorplate, radios and other s**t, they were pretty sweet little ships. Not real fast, but the little f***s could turn and roll in a phonebooth. Oh yeah--sweet little ship; but some engineer went and f***ed it up." With that he reached for his beer and was silent again. After that answer, I somehow had the feeling that I had just gotten a glimpse into Boyington's attitude towards life in general.
Just thought I'd mention it -- Rick West "
Not an opinion on my part, just info to be digested... If you'd like to read it for yourself, go here: http://www.warbirdforum.com/pappy.htm
230G/35 Whelen
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Good quote 230G. Remember that the Buffalos shipped to the finns were nearly stripped, of everything! ;)
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Revrand, if I may ask: Are you a child?
Been playing AH over five years, so I'm at least that old..........! Needless to say I am half way there to reverting back to diapers, but instead of calling them diapers they are called Depends not to bruise the ego......... :O
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They need to add the Ki-43 so this guy can really whine about something that out turns him.
Whining! lololol..........I have already admitted my topic was posted with out seeing the other posts and thanks to you and some of your fellow rocket scientists I have found the errors in my ways........Thank you so much for your help! :aok
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No excuse then...
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Revrand:
Sorry man, but you are the one who is basically claiming that HTC is lying on their performance charts for the Brewster. You'll just naturally catch flak for that.
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Two questions . Can a Brew really out turn A6M5 IRL ? Should a radial engined plane really retain E well ? Not being a Smart A.. . Would like to know from some of you more knowledgeable fellas .
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Two questions . Can a Brew really out turn A6M5 IRL ? Should a radial engined plane really retain E well ? Not being a Smart A.. . Would like to know from some of you more knowledgeable fellas .
I doubt it, but it can't in game either. The Brewster is meat on the table for either variety of the A6M in game.
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Revrand:
Sorry man, but you are the one who is basically claiming that HTC is lying on their performance charts for the Brewster. You'll just naturally catch flak for that.
The thought never crossed my mind about HTC in any way. Being that the Brew is so new to AH, I underestimated its cababilities. And that it in the right hands is a very capable plane. If the point came across like that my apologies. I just was in the DA in my N1K and was being chased by a Brew and it gained on me even though I was using WEB. :salute
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Two questions . Can a Brew really out turn A6M5 IRL ? Should a radial engined plane really retain E well ? Not being a Smart A.. . Would like to know from some of you more knowledgeable fellas .
A properly cowled radial engine aircraft can be QUITE slick. As the F4U series demonstrates.
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The thought never crossed my mind about HTC in any way. Being that the Brew is so new to AH, I underestimated its cababilities. And that it in the right hands is a very capable plane. If the point came across like that my apologies. I just was in the DA in my N1K and was being chased by a Brew and it gained on me even though I was using WEB. :salute
I don't know for sure, but I don't THINK there is a prop plane in the game that can level at a speed beyond the dive limitations of any other prop fighter.
Seeing how long the Brewster retains excess speed would be interesting. My gut tells me probably no better than an FM2 though.
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I doubt it, but it can't in game either. The Brewster is meat on the table for either variety of the A6M in game.
The B-239 out turns the A6M5, but not the A6M2. It easily out-rolls both. It sure as hell isn't meat on the table for either. I've flown enough dissimilar aircraft duels with good pilots to recognize that the Brewster can compete with the Zekes. If I run into a Zero while flying a Brewster, the Zeke driver better be a top tier pilot, or he's in deep bandini.
My regards,
Widewing
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The B-239 out turns the A6M5, but not the A6M2. It easily out-rolls both. It sure as hell isn't meat on the table for either. I've flown enough dissimilar aircraft duels with good pilots to recognize that the Brewster can compete with the Zekes. If I run into a Zero while flying a Brewster, the Zeke driver better be a top tier pilot, or he's in deep bandini.
My regards,
Widewing
Gonna second this. Ran into WMaker a few times while he was in a Brew. and I was in an A6M5b and he's mopped the floor with me each time it seems.
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I doubt it, but it can't in game either. The Brewster is meat on the table for either variety of the A6M in game.
I will add my voice to those denouncing this heinous lie. Any fighter can out-roll a Zero, pretty much, but the Brewster can actually climb with it, which makes it unique amongst the early-war plane set (most of which can't climb at all.) The power/weight ratio of the Brewster is nearly as good as that of either A6M, so the Brewster can yo-yo with impunity to stay inside a Zero's turn. (You try that in, say, the P-40, and you might not have enough energy to follow the Zero long enough for a good shot if he decides to go vertical, which he should.) The Brewster is one of the few planes that can really mix it up with a Zero, instead of being limited to just energy tactics.
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I'm lazy so rather than typing a longwinded reply myself I'll just quote Squire's excellent post on an earlier thread:
"The whole business with the Brewster in US service came down to a single dogfight on June 4th 1942 at Midway. The 15 Buffalo and 7 Wildcats were launched late vs an IJN strike of 108 a/c. They were faced with 4-1 odds as well as this was the first combat of almost all the USMC pilots in the war. They fought as well as could be expected, and actually impressed the Japanese. It would have made no difference if all the fighters were F4Fs in that fight, none whatsovever.
The Brewster in Dutch and RAF/RAAF service in the East Indies is a circumstance where the air force is faced with the land ans sea forces being defeated and forced to withdraw, it was not the fault of the Brewster that they were in such poor circumstances. The presence of F4Fs or P-40s or Hurricanes would not have prevented that campaign from being the disaster it was. Nor would they have altered the Singapore campaign.
Its ironic that the P-40 at Pearl Harbor and the Phillipines is not blamed for the Allied defeats there, or the F4F blamed for the fall of Wake island, but somehow it seems many want to blame the poor Brewster for all the ills of the Allied forces in those early weeks and months of the Pacific war in other places. Its more to do with our human need for symbols. We dont like defeats, and anything associated with a deafeat gets all the harsh mythology that goes with it, and the opposite for the good times, where victories come, we over glamorize anything associated with winning, the P-51, the Spitfire, the Hellcat, ect. Its the same for ships, tanks, guns, and anything else we associate with a particular battle.
So take what they say about it with a grain of salt, and understand the context of the very difficult circumstances it fought in before beleiving all the over hyped smears and half truths. Was it a great fighter? no, but it wasn't as bad as many make it out to be through the crud colored glasses of Allied retreat in those early days of the war.
As for Finnish service, the Finns had the benefit of being able to operate it for almost three long years from airfields that were not over run, and were able to fight a long war of attirition over home territory against poorer Sovier pilots and tactics in many cases. I take nothing away from their accomplishments, they did a splendid job, but the circumstances were very different."
I totally agree with Squire. This is partly the reason why there are still discussions where Brewster is sometimes referred as the worst fighter of WWII. Considering that things like the I-153, I-16, Gloster Gladiator, CR.42 fought in WWII the whole question is absurd. But the myth lives on when a big war whinning nation happened to get the snot beat out of them in one aireal combat the plane it self had to be complete junk...
Regarding the Brewster vs. Zero-5,
Given equal pilots, the reach of the .50 cals and the vastly better rollrate are a real problem to the Zeke driver but the significant climb rate advantage that the Zero enjoys can really be poison for the Brewster. Hi Yo-Yos and spiral climb can be used to defeat the Brewster once it starts gaining Zero on the turn.
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As for Finnish service, the Finns had the benefit of being able to operate it for almost three long years from airfields that were not over run, and were able to fight a long war of attirition over home territory against poorer Sovier pilots and tactics in many cases. I take nothing away from their accomplishments, they did a splendid job, but the circumstances were very different."
It's worth mentioning that even after the Russians started bringing Yaks and MiGs into play, the Brewster still managed to hold it's own. The absolutely spectacular performance before that, however, was a combination of Russian shortcomings and Finnish excellence. The same statement can be applied to the ground war in both cases.
the significant climb rate advantage that the Zero enjoys can really be poison for the Brewster. Hi Yo-Yos and spiral climb can be used to defeat the Brewster once it starts gaining Zero on the turn.
Precisely. The excellent power/weight ratio of the Brewster allows it more time and more opportunities to nail the Zero at the apex of it's yo-yos or such; but the Brewster must avoid sustained vertical manuvering with a Zero at all costs.
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It's worth mentioning that even after the Russians started bringing Yaks and MiGs into play, the Brewster still managed to hold it's own. The absolutely spectacular performance before that, however, was a combination of Russian shortcomings and Finnish excellence. The same statement can be applied to the ground war in both cases.
MiGs and Hurricanes were the first inline engined fighters Finns faced as early as fall of '41. And they did take quite a beating aswell. It was later in the game when later Yaks and La-5s started to be a problem. Then Brewsters were flown in larger formations and at times with 109Gs as top cover. One thing that Squire didn't mention is that although Soviet fighter tactics were inferior to the tactics used by the Finns, Brewster were usually/many times significantly out-numbered. The question about the individual pilot quality isn't really very clear-cut. From the material what I've read I've come to a conclusion that the training wasn't generally up to the Finnish/western standards but there still were talented indivuduals who learned despite the poorer training and were tougher adversaries. One thing that basically every Finnish fighter pilot veteran seems to agree on is the generally poor gunnery skills of the Soviets and this seems to apply to all the phases of the war. They opened fire too early from too far out and usually missed. Of course on the flip side, those that found someone who could shoot may times didn't return to tell the tale...
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Regarding the Brewster vs. Zero-5,
Given equal pilots, the reach of the .50 cals and the vastly better rollrate are a real problem to the Zeke driver but the significant climb rate advantage that the Zero enjoys can really be poison for the Brewster. Hi Yo-Yos and spiral climb can be used to defeat the Brewster once it starts gaining Zero on the turn.
This is true for the A6M5, as it climbs better than the A6M2. If the fight begins with the Brewster having an E advantage, it can get very ugly for the Zeke in a hurry.
As I stated, the Brewster is anything but "meat on the table" for the Zero (either). The secret is knowing how to use the Brewster's strengths and its gentle stall to bedevil the Zeke pilot who decides to stall-fight. Like many other match-ups, plane handling skill is often the difference.
My regards,
Widewing
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The B-239 out turns the A6M5, but not the A6M2. It easily out-rolls both. It sure as hell isn't meat on the table for either. I've flown enough dissimilar aircraft duels with good pilots to recognize that the Brewster can compete with the Zekes. If I run into a Zero while flying a Brewster, the Zeke driver better be a top tier pilot, or he's in deep bandini.
My regards,
Widewing
Sorry, I made the fault of applying my very limited experience with the aircraft to all situations... I was basing my statement on a few fights I had in Beta with various aircraft vs a Brewster pilot who at this point I can't remember his name. I had taken off in a variety of American carrier aircraft to fight him at low level and slow, where he invariably dominated me, and after a bit I was thinking about whether or not the A6M would do well against it and tried both models, in which I killed him several times with each with no real effort, getting nothing more serious than a fuel leak in all of the engagements IIRC...
Also I thought Badboy had compared both the A6M2 and 5b with the B239 and found both to have a tighter turn radius but now I see that it was only the A6M2 that he compared.
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As I stated, the Brewster is anything but "meat on the table" for the Zero (either).
Yep, and I totally agree. Wasn't trying to dispute what you said at all.
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Yep, and I totally agree. Wasn't trying to dispute what you said at all.
I didn't think you were... :) You know even better than I do. :aok
My regards,
Widewing
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I didn't think you were... :)
Ok! :) Just wanted to make sure. :)