Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: HABICHT on March 05, 2000, 02:24:00 PM
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he 177??
think it would be a great, never modelled, buff. it has got a nice payload and good
defense ability (for a LW bomber).
and there were over 1000 built.
at the ende of war, they stood at their
airfields without fuel.
YES it had problems with the DB606 engines,
but it was used in combat.
pls, give us LW-fans a real buff, not a he111
or ju88, not with all these late war fighters
around.
any comments?
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/109habicht.gif)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 03-05-2000).]
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Yes, although with poor service record, it was a great concept.
Why not ?
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/hristo.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-05-2000).]
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One possible reasoning for selecting He111 over the He177 would be Scenarios. It is a lot easier to build an historic scenario around the He111 than the He177. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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and the called it the "Fiegendes Feuerzeug" (Flying lighter) because of it's desasterous habbit of catching fire on the twing engines in one engine cowling ... (my grand uncle flew that beast and had to bail 3 times without being shot at because the thing cought fire)
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Agree with the He177...but after Ju88. Ju88 was a good bombing platform until the end of the war. Was fast for a bomber, and we all know that is difficult to catch a fast high bomber...Also it was present the hole war.
But the He177 also is interesting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW..I want Ju87G!!!! If you are going to model a IL2...then its fair to have their LW counterparts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-05-2000).]
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If you want a buff that hasn't been modeled much, but also want historical scenarios, how about Dornier Do-17?
Allthough it would be nice to just have an He-111 so we can play battle of Britain.....wheres that channel map at? ;-)
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The He177 would be welcomed, but the Ju88 with it's many versions (A,C,G,S) should have priority I think.
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i know, we need a he111 or ju88 vor BoB scenario. but with the he111 or early ju88
we have planes, ONLY usefull for scenarios.
a early version of the he111 or ju88 in the
main?? no chance to survive.
btw for BoB, we still need a spit1,emil & hurri. the do17 idea is bad, this buff is a
"flying pencil". when the british get their
lancester, we LW freaks need the he177 (or arado234). b17,b26,lance are all middle-late war buffs (this versions here). why should the LW get a early war buff, only for bob?
no thx!
or give the allied the handley page hampden
instead of the lancester.
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/109habicht.gif)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 03-06-2000).]
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Facts is facts, though. The He111 was used heavily throughout the war, and no planeset is complete without it. Same for the Ju88. To say they would not be competitive would be to ignore the success of the B26. I'll be the first to admit I was wrong (to a point) about the survivability of the B26. There is no reason to believe that the Ju88 or He111 could not be just as successful. Both are faster and have a higher ceiling than the B26. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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He 177 was a piece of junk.
Ju 88 is the best choice because it served for the whole war, and did every role you can think of. Strategic bombing, dive bombing, tank killing, night fighter, day fighter, you name it.
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Kieren the He111 was for SURE not faser than the B26 ... and it wasn't armed well and had hardly any amor protection ..
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oops, got me there!
He111:
Speed- 258mph
Ceiling- 27,900ft
Payload- 5,501lbs
B26:
Speed- 281mph
Ceiling- 21,052ft
Payload- 5,207lbs
So, while the B26 is 23mph faster, the He111 can go almost 7,000ft higher and carry more bombs.
Defensive armament? No question the B26 is better with .50's but those .50's are easily spoofed. The He111, while it has smaller guns, has a better field of fire on the ones it has. I think I would trade 23mph for 7,000ft, wouldn't you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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YEAAAAAAAHHHHHH HE177
(http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2834/HE177.JPG)
The He 177 served as a five/six-seat heavy bomber from 1942 to 1945. The Greif (Griffin) was the only long-range heavy bomber built by the Luftwaffe in World War II in significant numbers. It was, to the good fortune of the Allies, one of the most trouble-plagued and accident-prone aircraft in existence, and the German crews and ground staff did not like it either. The plane was desgined to meet a mistaken and impossible goal of 1938 that not only demanded long range with heavy bomb load, and a speed of 335mph but also required the big bomber must be able to dive-bomb. This and many other difficulties caused great delay and added to the weight. The designers wanted to use neat remotely controlled guns but this was a big problem and eventually it had to be discarded in favor of the ordinary turrets or hand-aimed guns. Worse yet, it was decided to use four engines and pack them in two coupled pairs to reduce drag, so that the He 177 looked like a twin-engined aircraft. Although great efforts were made by Daimler-Benz to make the 2,950hp DB 610A twinned units work properly, they created numerous problems and caught fire so often that -- like an aircraft of World War I -- the big Heinkel was dubbed "the Flaming Coffin." In total more than 1,000 of many versions were built. Armed with various combinations of 20mm cannon, 13mm heavy machine guns and rifle-caliber guns, the He 177 carried up to 13,225lb of bombs or missiles, and in some types even went into action at "nought feet" as tank-busters carrying huge 50 or 75mm caliber. Late in the war some new versions, like the He 274 built in France and He 277 in Austria, had four separate engines; but they were too late to have any significant influence in the course of the war.
(http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2834/HE177B.JPG)
(http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2834/HE177C.GIF)
<--->
<--->
(http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2834/HE177A.GIF)
Origin:Ernst Heinkel AG; also built by Arado Flugzeugwerke.
Type:He 177, six-seat heavy bomber and missile carrier.
Engines:two 2,950hp Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1, each comprising two inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled engines geared to one propeller.
Armament (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)A-5/R2) one 7.92mm MG 81J manually aimed in nose, one 20mm MG 151 manually aimed at front of ventral gondola, one or two 13mm MG 131 in forward dorsal turret, one MG 131 in rear dorsal turret, one MG 151 manually aimed in tail and two MG 81 or one MG 131 manually aimed at rear of gondola; maximum internal bomb load 13,200lb (6,000kg), seldom carried external load, two Hs 293 guided missiles, FX 1,400 guided bombs, mines or torpedoes (more if internal bay blanked off and racks added below it).
Speed:maximum speed (at 41,000lb, 18,615kg) 295mph (472km/h).
Climb:initial climb 853ft (260m)/min.
Ceiling:service ceiling 26,500ft (7,080m).
Range:range with FX or Hs 293 missiles (no bombs) about 3,107 miles (5,000km).
Weight:empty 37,038lb (16,800kg); loaded (A-5) 68,343lb (31,000kg).
Wingspan:103ft 13/4in (31.44m).
Length:72ft 2in (22m).
Height:21ft 0in (6.4m).
Crew:five/six.
History:first flight (He 177V-1) 19 November 1939; (pre-production He 177A-0) November 1941; service delivery (A-1) March 1942; February 1943; first flight (He 277V-1) December 1943; (He 274, alias AAS 01A) December 1945.
Users:Germany (Luftwaffe).
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Sorry Kieren but i have to disagree with you again .. no way a He111 could reach it's ceiling with full 5.000 lb load, and the field of fire of it's weapons wasn't as good as on the B26
The front gunner had only a samll cone of fire, the upper gunner only about 30° left right to the back (no forward firing) , same the lower gunner and the wasit gunners position could hardly fire further forward than 90° to the flight path.. this baby is dead meat without extensive protection (this is why she was used more as a transport than a Bomber after 1944)..
However the He111 is one of my favourites and i'd love to see it .. but i guess it's not going to see extensive use in the MA.
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I like the He-177 idea.
This plane'll be good in main arena and more over in "what if" scenarios. IMHO it'll be intresting to organize some "unhistorical" events.
As for He-111 it can also be used as a drunks carrier and V-1 launcher
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The He111H was a great bomber in 1938: 22,000ft ceiling and 250mph top speed while carrying a 5,500lb bombload. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Duckwing-
Look, I don't want to sound like an He111 champion or anything but....
You may be right in saying that a real He111 couldn't reach that ceiling with a full bombload. Then again, neither could a B17G reach 38-40K, or the B26 reach 24K with a full bombload, yet these are pretty routine alts in AH. See what I mean? Further, I have a feeling it would be successful (more-or-less) in the same way the B26 is. We all know that once you get above a B26 the fight is over because the top turret won't deflect upwards enough. As long as you don't tail chase, there is little the B26 can do to you.
My only contention is that, based on the success of a more-or-less similar a/c, there is no reason not to include what was an historically significant bomber. Bring some in at 28K, drop your load and go (not circle over the base until fighters arrive) and it should survive. If you want the truth of it, that is the major reason IMHO most guys get it in the bombers; loitering over a target. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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If you want to experiance the 111, take a c47 with troops and try to bomb the enemy HQ with them..You will get the idea real quick.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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No, don't believe this is a fair comparison at all. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Kieren, we have the b26B, not b26G. The B has a top speed of 310 mph. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (I know, it seems funny, but it's true. The reason, the G's wings were tilted back to improve low speed handling.) BTW: He 111 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Did the HE-177 have 4 engines, mounted on two nacelles with two engines each?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer
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Yep, unfortunately for its pilots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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D'oh!
A little useless and redundant info snipped!
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 03-08-2000).]
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I know, I know ... sorry, but I just HAD to post it. (Maybe I needed more smileys. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
(Truth be told, I was bored at work and had to post something.)
On second thought, why did I post that anyway, what does it have to do with this thread. Hey, wait a minute, neither does this post... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<--- Sneaks out of the room
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I too would love to see the He-177A. In the book, "The Luftwaffe Album: Fighters and bombers of the German air force 1933-1945", says that production ceased in September 1944, with some 1,146 He-177 had been built since January 1942. I would first rather see the DO-17Z, Do-217E, and He-111H before the He-177A.
Mast
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Ju 88 served as level bomber, dive bomber, torpedo bomber, night fighter, day fighter, tank-killer, and probably some other roles I have forgotten.
In short it was one of the most versatile combat aircraft in history.
Since we don't seem to be getting a whole lot of bombers, doesn't it make sense to get one that can do a lot of jobs with different variants?
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With 20mm defensive armement the 117 would have a great survival chance in the game. It was a bit of a lemon but the game doesnt model that. Either the 88 or the 117 would be fine. The 117 has a tail gun and the 88 doenst...I would much rather take the 117.
My big concern about the 111 is its lack of armour and lack of defensive guns. It will be fodder in this arena, probably in any post 40 scenario as well. I just think that Pyro has enough grief without having to read the posts that would follow its introduction. The complaints about the 117 would probably be in the (its too tough) catagory. A nice change for the bomber pilots
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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i vote for the He 177
it will be more playable than the He111, with many late fighters in the arena...
i don't know if a He111 could resist at an salvo of 6x .cal50.
and i wonder if He 111 gunners have any Line of sight for a good defense...(humm Mg34 gunner seems too weak)
(http://www.multimania.com/alsacenono/no.jpg)
GC III/2 "Alsace" (http://www.multimania.com/alsacenono)
[This message has been edited by nonoht (edited 03-30-2000).]
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Originally posted by Kieren:
One possible reasoning for selecting He111 over the He177 would be Scenarios. It is a lot easier to build an historic scenario around the He111 than the He177. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
With current planes, it's actually out of time scale (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
He-111 is so old against these very late war planes that uh oh... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by Nimm2:
YEAAAAAAAHHHHHH HE177
The He 177 served as a five/six-seat heavy bomber from 1942 to 1945. The Greif (Griffin) was the only long-range heavy bomber built by the Luftwaffe in World War II in significant numbers. It was, to the good fortune of the Allies, one of the most trouble-plagued and accident-prone aircraft in existence, and the German crews and ground staff did not like it either. The plane was desgined to meet a mistaken and impossible goal of 1938 that not only demanded long range with heavy bomb load, and a speed of 335mph but also required the big bomber must be able to dive-bomb. This and many other difficulties caused great delay and added to the weight. The designers wanted to use neat remotely controlled guns but this was a big problem and eventually it had to be discarded in favor of the ordinary turrets or hand-aimed guns. Worse yet, it was decided to use four engines and pack them in two coupled pairs to reduce drag, so that the He 177 looked like a twin-engined aircraft. Although great efforts were made by Daimler-Benz to make the 2,950hp DB 610A twinned units work properly, they created numerous problems and caught fire so often that -- like an aircraft of World War I -- the big Heinkel was dubbed "the Flaming Coffin." In total more than 1,000 of many versions were built. Armed with various combinations of 20mm cannon, 13mm heavy machine guns and rifle-caliber guns, the He 177 carried up to 13,225lb of bombs or missiles, and in some types even went into action at "nought feet" as tank-busters carrying huge 50 or 75mm caliber. Late in the war some new versions, like the He 274 built in France and He 277 in Austria, had four separate engines; but they were too late to have any significant influence in the course of the war.
I wonder if it has anything to do with B-17 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) look at the tail (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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nonoht,
as a side note:
My uncle was a engineer/gunner in a He111 (KG51), I talked to him yesterday and he said when they got their (forward firing)20mm cannons, they used them to "scare away" attacking fighters. The HE-shells had a self fusing distance of 700meters and they just "sprayed and prayed" some rounds into the flight path of the attacker. He said the sound of the shrapnell (?) fragments hitting the airframe caused most fighters to break up with their attack.
He also said, in the late years of WWII they used the 111 as ground attack plane. It had 4 forward firing 20mm cannons, they did low level attacks on trains in Russia. He keeps telling me the story of one guy, who had mounted 13 (!) forward firing MG's and cannons and used that thing for ship attacks.
I don't know if you can sink a destroyer with some MG's but the hail storm of more than 100 bullets a second hitting the deck shure must have scared the sh*t out of the poor sailors (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW this guy got shot down anyway
May be it'is the wrong thread for this, but my uncle's job was also to install the "ADLER Zielgerät" into FW190's in the last days of war. This was the German variant of a gyroscopic gunsight. It had a "electronic" computing device with no moving parts (besides the gyro) and was used for precise high deflection shooting against buffs (side attacks). If anyone is interrested, I have a rather bad photograph of that thing built into a trainer...
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Cool info, thanks!
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It seems to me that you can't really get a MA-proof german late war bomber, due to the limitations that hampered german bomber production (a good overall source is Angriffhöhe 4000 - Ein Kriegstagebuch der deutschen Luftwaffe by Cajus Bekker, ISBN 3-8289-0306-1; english Title 'The Luftwaffe War Diaries : The German Air Force in World War II', available over http://www.combatsim.com/books/picks.htm). (http://www.combatsim.com/books/picks.htm).)
Fact is that most german bomber designs were either short-range medium size bombers with rather poor defensive armament (He 111, Do 17, Ju 88), fragile conversions from civil products (Fw 200 - had very good armament, excellent range but a airframe that was prone to break under G-load) or the luckiless He 177 (which was originally a 4-engined, 2-Propeller design to increase speed but was plagued by requests for dive-bomb ability and design flaws - the fires where caused by oil from the engines dripping on the exhaust pipe).
The early death of General Wever in 1936 who proposed the development of 4-engined bombers, wrong decisions by the leadership and officials and the process of the war finally prevented the creation of a 'good' daylight bomber.
OTOH, one shouldn't forget that only the US with their intact homeland could produce the necessary number of bombers and escort fighters (another very weak point of the LW) to be successful in strategic bombing.
Az
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Yeah everything I've read indicates the 177 was a lemon.
And don't forget that a realistic bomb sight is coming soon. No more 30k pickle barrel stuff.
I'd rather give up some bomb load and guns for speed and versatility. Gimme a Ju 88 or He 111.
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It was a lemon but what does that matter in the MA. It is fast, over 300mph, carries enough bombs to hurt stuff, has quite good defensive armement.
Its weaknesses will be no more evident in the MA then the nikis almost identical weaknesses are.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Guys, guys, guys...
I'm not saying make the He111 first. I'm saying don't exclude it. I'm a patient man, and I think in time there will be a place.
Actually if I have to state which one I would rate on the "must have soonest" list, it would be the Ju88. As funked said, it was the German "jack-of-all-trades".
These decisions aren't all either/or, you know. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The 177 had structural problems too. At the loaded weight the maximum allowable normal acceleration was 2.3 g!
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And you can pull those 2.3 g's with only a very small pressure the controls, even at high speeds. It would be funny seeing one try evasives and snapping in half when you attack it... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Guys, check out the Fw191 Medium Bomber.
It never made it past the prototype stage, but it definitely "could have been a contender".
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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The He 177 would actually be a decent plane in the game, since we don't have to deal with a lot of the issues that make it a piece of junk. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
Perfect plans, aren't.