Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: uptown on September 02, 2009, 06:59:39 PM
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This gave me the creeps when the ball turret got hit. It must of been pure hell inside that bomber. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9ec_1251930624 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9ec_1251930624)
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Looked like an AFK attack to me.
German must have been highly frustrated at being unable to bring down an empty bomber, clearly seperated from from formation, at such close range.
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Lazy tail and ball gunner. Just sat there watch the 110 shooting at them.
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I can almost hear the guy now on range.... "I put half my clip into that 17 and landed hits everywhere and he still didn't go down. This damage model is bs!"
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You know I was thinking..."great damage model in favor of the 17"
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Lazy tail and ball gunner. Just sat there watch the 110 shooting at them.
pfft. shame on you!
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You can only imagine the stark terror inside that 17 , its almost disturbing . And not 1 twinkle of the tail guns unless the poor guy was toasted before the film .
The ball turret well all that can be said is OMG .
Nutte :pray
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Notice the angle of the ball turret gun. That guy was dead before the 110 even got to co-alt. Either that or they had already pulled him out. Either way, I'm guessing the tail, ball, and waist gunners bought the farm.
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I don't know if it was the film or not, but saw dark figure appear at B17 and drop off frame, kinda looked like someone bail/fall.
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There looked to be two ball turrets, that would make it a YB-40 type B-17. I looked again, it looks like the chin turret. The chin turret is moving at the end of the clip.
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You're making jokes, but if there was someone in that ball turret, they were certainly killed. Not to mention, anyone else who could have been hit in the fuselage.
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That was brutal! yet the b17 was still flying. Guess we can't complain about how many rounds are need to take out a 17 in AH.
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The 17 was an amazing aircraft.
That said..... it was not near as amazing as the gentlemen who rode inside her.
Because we see simular instances in Ah we forget that this film is not a game and that lives are being lost as we watch.
:pray :salute
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I feel for the guys that were there...but I get more hits than that guy did and still get popped by the rear guns.
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I was looking at the local B17 being rebuilt here in Urbana Ohio a few days ago & the ball Turret was being worked on while I was there. http://www.b17project.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=44 The hatch to get in & out of is extremely small & the only way the gunner can transition in & out is when the guns are pointing straight down vertical. Based off the video I would say the gunners where out of there positions.
Also in the very bottom left hand corner at the beginning of the clip it looks as if the plane is about to cross coast line & heading out to sea? My best guess a crippled plane trying to get home at a reasonably low level & was pounced.
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You're making jokes, but if there was someone in that ball turret, they were certainly killed. Not to mention, anyone else who could have been hit in the fuselage.
from the looks of that, everyone aft of the cockpit bought it..............
<<S>> to them
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That's brutal, glad I only fly in cartoon planes.
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That was a kill. That Fortress was still flying, but I don't think anyone was alive to land it. War is brutal. :salute
For every two HE puffs you see on the fuselage there would be an armor piercing round between them; Jerry used mixed ammo belting, usually one HE/M, one HE/T (tracer) and one AP. Those 20 mm AP rounds would have gone straight through the length of the fuselage and out the other side. Nasty.
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I would bet that, given this bird was separated from the formation and apparently trying to make it home before being pounced by the 110, she was probably already shot up pretty badly before this vid starts. The lack of any return fire would seem to back this up. It's likely some or most of the crew were already out of the fight, and it appears that there are two bailouts at 0:36 sec and 0:38 sec into the film. Possibly (hopefully) some/most/all of the remaining crew were already out of the plane.
Regardless, :salute to all of the brave guys who went up in those giant targets. If I had been around then I can't say I would have been happy about drawing a short straw and winding up in a bomber.....
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That clip is part of a longer German gun camera reel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqjs5NzKSxg
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That clip is part of a longer German gun camera reel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqjs5NzKSxg
dunno if i'm missing something....but none of those buffs looked to be returning fire?
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Probably the poor quality of the film and compression of the video. I did see a lot of (what I think were) tracers in one of the clips showing an attack on a box formation of 17's. The stragglers had already been shot out of formation and were probably hurting bad.
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If you noticed, the Bf 110 was also targeting the engines that powered the back up hydraulic and electrical systems after taking care of the tail gunner. In any event, I seriously doubt that Fortress made it home. Hopefully those that were able to bail out (if any did) were able to parachute to safety and at least sit out the rest of the war in a POW camp.
That footage shows goes to show brutal the air war was over Europe, something like 1 out of every 4 crewman killed.
ack-ack
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pfft. shame on you!
I second that, gunners are probably dead
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Listen to 8 minutes of a ball turret gunner who survived:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRWrAP_b3vY
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Listen to 8 minutes of a ball turret gunner who survived:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRWrAP_b3vY
I love listening to Veterans, they seem so knowledgeable, wise and great stories. Man, i'd give my dream of becoming a U.S. Marine just to have my Great Uncle back.
R.I.P. 1915 - 2006 :salute
He'd wake up in the middle of the night cursing and waving his fists around. Always wondered what he was dreaming about.
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That is a fascinating interview. That man went through hell over there. You could hear it in his voice. That whole generation of men and women are true treasures. I salute their incredible bravery and service.
Let us not forget :salute
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Listen to 8 minutes of a ball turret gunner who survived:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRWrAP_b3vY
Thank you for posting that :salute
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I'd expect them to be dead,didnt see much in the way of return fire.
That said, it took a lot of rounds (in AH my 110 would be a lawndart)
Maybe it was a noob and his shade.
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Listen to 8 minutes of a ball turret gunner who survived:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRWrAP_b3vY
wow........ :salute
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By mid-1944 the 8th Army Air Force in the UK had replaced their entire force every six months due to losses. It's incredible they could take such losses and fight on like they did. The Mighty Eight suffered 4,145 of the total 10,561 American air losses in Europe during WWII. On their worst mission they lost 26% of the bomber force in one day.
"On 2nd Schweinfurt/Mission 115 (14th October) as part of Pointblank, fifty-nine Flying Fortresses were shot down over Germany, one ditched in the English Channel on the return flight, five crashed in England, and twelve more were scrapped due to battle damage or crash landings, a total loss of seventy seven B-17s. 122 bombers were damaged to some degree and needed repairs before their next flight. Out of 2900 men in the crews, about 650 men did not return, although some survived as POWs. Five were killed and forty-three wounded in the damaged aircraft that made it home, and 594 were listed as Missing in Action. Only thirty-three bombers landed without damage.
A total of 77 aircraft destroyed - out of a force of 291."
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from the looks of that, everyone aft of the cockpit bought it..............
<<S>> to them
I just don't think it's too funny people joking about a video like this, when in reality, they're watching someone kill someone else. It may not be all that brutal because there's no typical TV gore, but regardless of who it was, or what side shot down who, you're watching someone's last terrifying seconds of life, before they crash and burn, and in some instances, like in the pacific, are never seen again. Never return to their families.
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I just don't think it's too funny people joking about a video like this, when in reality, they're watching someone kill someone else. It may not be all that brutal because there's no typical TV gore, but regardless of who it was, or what side shot down who, you're watching someone's last terrifying seconds of life, before they crash and burn, and in some instances, like in the pacific, are never seen again. Never return to their families.
i wasn't making any jokes about this? how do you get to me making a joke??
i respect the hell out of those guys, for what they did, and what they gave up so we can have what we have.
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i wasn't making any jokes about this? how do you get to me making a joke??
i respect the hell out of those guys, for what they did, and what they gave up so we can have what we have.
It isn't centered at you at all, I'm sorry. Just in general for that first page.
:salute
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It isn't centered at you at all, I'm sorry. Just in general for that first page.
:salute
aahh...you quoted my post....so i thought you were refering to it.........sorry dude.....
btw..if anyone lives on the east coast...hit the mighty eighth air museum in georgia. they have a LOT of good stuff.
theres some "home" type movies that they play on a wall sized screen.........from crew members in the 17's on the way in........it can bring tears to your eyes........
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Popped back in to the local B17 took some pics.
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6516/0003839.th.jpg) (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/0003839.jpg/)
Top of ammo box.
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2609/0003842.th.jpg) (http://img512.imageshack.us/i/0003842.jpg/)
Gunners entrance.
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/4910/0003843.th.jpg) (http://img512.imageshack.us/i/0003843.jpg/) (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7117/0003840.th.jpg) (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/0003840.jpg/) (http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4791/0003845.th.jpg) (http://img168.imageshack.us/i/0003845.jpg/)
Hole for ball turret.
(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2504/0003846.th.jpg) (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/0003846.jpg/)
Engine mounts.
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2655/0003852.th.jpg) (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/0003852.jpg/) (http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2535/0003849.th.jpg) (http://img168.imageshack.us/i/0003849.jpg/)
Bomb bay doors.
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3769/0003850.th.jpg) (http://img512.imageshack.us/i/0003850.jpg/)
Wing tips.
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7396/0003851.th.jpg) (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/0003851.jpg/)
Norden Bombsight.
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/74/0003854.th.jpg) (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/0003854.jpg/) (http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1629/0003855.th.jpg) (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/0003855.jpg/)
Location of a fuel tank inside of wing.
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2607/0003856.th.jpg) (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/0003856.jpg/)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8370/0003838.th.jpg) (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/0003838.jpg/) (http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/889/0003844.th.jpg) (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/0003844.jpg/) (http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3980/0003847.th.jpg) (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/0003847.jpg/) (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9906/0003837.th.jpg) (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/0003837.jpg/)
This picture is the under side skin of the wing & would have been mounted on the inside of the wing that was to be thrown away. When they found that Irene Noel & Carlos took some time to scratch some art work on way back in the 1940's when this plane was being built.
(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9231/0003853.th.jpg) (http://img406.imageshack.us/i/0003853.jpg/)
What the plane will look like.
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4291/0003650.th.jpg) (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/0003650.jpg/)
Plus a few of what it once looked like.
(http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/6046/aa22.th.jpg) (http://img382.imageshack.us/i/aa22.jpg/) (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8305/test80g419784.th.jpg) (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/test80g419784.jpg/)
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aahh...you quoted my post....so i thought you were refering to it.........sorry dude.....
btw..if anyone lives on the east coast...hit the mighty eighth air museum in georgia. they have a LOT of good stuff.
theres some "home" type movies that they play on a wall sized screen.........from crew members in the 17's on the way in........it can bring tears to your eyes........
Pass it atleast once a month but I have never been in there.
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btw..if anyone lives on the east coast...hit the mighty eighth air museum in georgia. they have a LOT of good stuff.
Thanks for the reminder, Cap, I've driven right past it many times on the way back and forth from Myrtle Beach (home) to the racetrack at Pooler, GA, just a few exits south of the museum. I'll make it a point to go and take the family soon...
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Pass it atleast once a month but I have never been in there.
dude!! stop in there. you won't be dissappointed. :aok
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How did the 8th's losses compare to those the British suffered at night?
63tb
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How did the 8th's losses compare to those the British suffered at night?
63tb
i think i read somehwere that the 8th air force's loss rate was in the ballpark of 60%. i don't recall reading much on the raf's losses at night.....butr i would imagine they were significantly less.
if i recall reading, the raf stopped their daytime raids as they couldn't sustain the losses.
again, a frakkin BIGASSD :salute :salute :salute :salute :salute :salute TO ALL OF THOSE GUYS.
in all honesty, i REALLY don't know how they did what they did, and stayed sane. this is why in my eyes, they are the true heros in the world.
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The 8th AF losses
RAF Bomber Command Losses
- 684 Stirlings
- 1,884 Halifax
- 4,265 Lancasters
Keep in mind that the losses tallied for RAF Bomber Command spands from 1939-145 and includes the periods of the early daylight mission raids over the mainland and night bombing missions over the mainland. The numbers for both the 8th and RAF Bomber Command includes planes lost in operational service (shot down, crashes, etc.) and not just 'failed to return'.
As you can see by the numbers, the 8th AF lost more bombers and crews than the RAF Bomber Command. If you consider that the 8th AF started their missions in '42 and only flew 3 years in combat, their losses were staggering and not surprising that they suffered a 25% casualty rate.
ack-ack
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The 8th AF losses
RAF Bomber Command Losses
- 684 Stirlings
- 1,884 Halifax
- 4,265 Lancasters
Keep in mind that the losses tallied for RAF Bomber Command spands from 1939-145 and includes the periods of the early daylight mission raids over the mainland and night bombing missions over the mainland. The numbers for both the 8th and RAF Bomber Command includes planes lost in operational service (shot down, crashes, etc.) and not just 'failed to return'.
As you can see by the numbers, the 8th AF lost more bombers and crews than the RAF Bomber Command. If you consider that the 8th AF started their missions in '42 and only flew 3 years in combat, their losses were staggering and not surprising that they suffered a 25% casualty rate.
ack-ack
crew of 10 on the b17's i believe? and same on the 24's?
almost makes ya wanna cry................
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I remember reading that the 8th lost more men than the US Marines lost in the pacific. Is that true?
63tb
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I remember reading that the 8th lost more men than the US Marines lost in the pacific. Is that true?
63tb
don't know, but would imagine so.......the mighty eighth was never turned back, never refused a mission, and never "didn't" complete a mission.
according to akak's numbers, assuming 10 man crews, that's 68,660 brave men lost.....just from the heavy bombers.....add in the light bombers, the fighters, etc............
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It isn't centered at you at all, I'm sorry. Just in general for that first page.
:salute
Well yeah, I see where you're coming from, but seriously, did you expect every single following post to be composed of <S> and <S> and <S> and <S>?
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I remember reading that the 8th lost more men than the US Marines lost in the pacific. Is that true?
63tb
8th Air Force Combat Losses in Europe was heavy. Crews had a higher percentage of being killed, wounded or captured while flying in the 8th AF than if they were in the infantry in the front line. Like all statistics, this fact is high when you compare the 8th AF losses against all personnel in the units that were considered "in combat." In actuality, it was even higher if you only count the front line regiment combat personnel and not the whole division. A US division was 16,000 or so personnel with only 3,600 being the front line infantry combat troops - all the others were support personnel.
The 8th AF suffered more than 42,000 casualties out of which over 26,000 were killed. The 8th AF casualties amounted to half of all USAAF casualties in World War II. This doesn't take into account the casualties suffered by the 9th, 11th, and 15th Air Forces. Also to put the number of casualties in more of a perspective, 135,000 men flew combat missions in the 8th AF during the war.
As wounded Staff Sgt. John Hill was helped from his B-17 bomber after a raid on Jan. 13, 1943, the commander of the 305th Bomb Group, Col. Curtis LeMay came up and said:
"Don't worry, that bullet didn't have your name on it."
"No," replied Hill, "but it had 'To whom it may concern' on it."
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
-- Randall Jarrell
ack-ack
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Looked like an AFK attack to me.
German must have been highly frustrated at being unable to bring down an empty bomber, clearly seperated from from formation, at such close range.
Lazy tail and ball gunner. Just sat there watch the 110 shooting at them.
I feel for the guys that were there...but I get more hits than that guy did and still get popped by the rear guns.
All three of these posts are beyond sickening. But not surprising, considering the need "for the shock value".
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I am pleasantly surprised not to see this post turn into a flame war. Posts like this have done just that in the past. War footage includes many, many casualties, both military and civilian, so I'm glad to see that we can discuss it without getting upset over one particular piece of footage.
All three of these posts are beyond sickening. But not surprising, considering the need "for the shock value".
Yes they are, but let's not give them the attention they crave.
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I am pleasantly surprised not to see this post turn into a flame war. Posts like this have done just that in the past. War footage includes many, many casualties, both military and civilian, so I'm glad to see that we can discuss it without getting upset over one particular piece of footage.
Yes they are, but let's not give them the attention they crave.
in the air in the real war, there are no bad guys, and good guy. there were just a bunch of kids with the responsibility of the world placed on their shoulders, doing whatever they could to survive.
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I could not imagine having viewed the film that anyone would not be moved by it . And after a little time had passed I wonder if the 110 pilot had seen it , not picking a side or being derogatory here but like CAP has pointed out its young men doing what they were ordered to do . Both sides of this has feelings on it I'm sure . The crew in the B-17 as its under a terrible attack and the stark terror they face , 110 pilot firing his guns and doing his job , defending his homeland and almost certainly ending someones life . This is tragic all the way around and there is no joke to it.
Nutte
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late to the party but a better bet is that the gunners have already left the 17. The ball turret pointed down like that means it's got the hatch inside the fuselage so the gunner can get out inside the plane.
The 17 already looked damaged, and it wasn't uncommon for crew to get out while they still had a chance. One unlucky hit and that bird is spinning and there is no chance.
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I hosted a wedding at our house for some friends last year and as it turns out, her grandfather was a b-17 pilot who was shot down in much the same manner. The bird was shot up and they were bailing out while getting shot up from another attack. I think 3 never made it out in his case. He told me the story of another guy who jumped out only to be met with a streamer. He climbed up the streamer to untangle it while plummeting down and slipped. He climbed back up and finally got the chute to open, fell off it as it did and swung out, back, then hit the ground. He told her grandfather that if he ever looked down for even a second he never would have opened the chute. This was told to him as they awaited their ride to prison camp after being picked on bailing.
late to the party but a better bet is that the gunners have already left the 17. The ball turret pointed down like that means it's got the hatch inside the fuselage so the gunner can get out inside the plane.
The 17 already looked damaged, and it wasn't uncommon for crew to get out while they still had a chance. One unlucky hit and that bird is spinning and there is no chance.
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here's a link to the mighty eigth's website.
http://www.mightyeighth.org/
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Listen to 8 minutes of a ball turret gunner who survived:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRWrAP_b3vY
His view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvuChgh4fGg&feature=fvw