Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SkViper on November 16, 2000, 08:50:00 AM
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I know this is a huge subject, and I have not read all the posts about it, but I wanted to start with a fresh point of view.
My thoughts on the mix of the plane set in Aces High (and other sims) is that to often the "Early War" planes get cast aside because they are useless against the "Late War" models.
I guess there are many ways of dealing with this; Seperate Arenas, Limit Availability, Just don't Produce certain types...etc.
My thoughts on the 3 above:
Seperate Arenas: Tend to split the community and are not as fun.
Limit Availability: I haven't seen this idea in action yet. The idea would be to limit the aircraft available in a Tour. For instance, set up Tour # 11 with just 1944 active aircraft. Then set Tour 12 to 1941...13 1942...14 1943...etc. This would give us the opportunity to enjoy the planes in a more actual setting rather than an over powering Ubbers Rule environment. I know there will be some discussion of Arenas; Pac should not battle Euro, but I think that will work out.
Just don't produce certain types: Well, I guess we all want to know what it would have been like to fly ANY WW2 plane. This one is not a good idea.
As an Ex-Air Warrior, I can tell you I left the arena many times because some rocket Jockey B&Z amazinhunk like Zazen had to interrupt a great dogfight with his Ubber Dora.
That is aggrevating to both pilots in the fight and many people hated him for it. I haven't seen such displays in AH yet, and hope I never will.
SkViper
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Heard a rumour that Mage = Zazen?? Any truth?
SKurj
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LOL,
No! At least not physically!
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I think lazs has the right idea for getting early war planes into the game. I would modify it a bit:
Put three airfields in the center of the MA, and surround them with a ring of 40K mountains to keep buffs and late war planes out. Enable only early war planes a those fields, and harden the structures to make them nearly impossible to close. Add some potent ack to discourage vultching. Throw in some canyons and clouds.
Now you have an early war, twisty-turny, arena in the middle of the MA. The key is that the whole player population will be able to see the sector bars and ch1 there from any location in the MA, making it easy for everyone to know when there is action there.
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 11-16-2000).]
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Originally posted by popeye:
I think lazs has the right idea for getting early war planes into the game. I would modify it a bit:
Put three airfields in the center of the MA, and surround them with a ring of 40K mountains to keep buffs and late war planes out. Enable only early war planes a those fields, and harden the structures to make them nearly impossible to close. Add some potent ack to discourage vultching. Throw in some canyons and clouds.
Now you have an early war, twisty-turny, arena in the middle of the MA. The key is that the whole player population will be able to see the sector bars and ch1 there from any location in the MA, making it easy for everyone to know when there is action there.
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 11-16-2000).]
I don't see where this will be any different from a seperate arena. Any player in this vaulted area will not be participating in the MA strategic event.
By placing it in the middle of the arena, you would also disrupt the playability of the entire areana.
SkViper
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The major argument against a separate arena is that most people go where the most action is when they log on. Once there, they don't check other arenas, and the less populated arena will starve for players. With the early war and late war in the same arena, there is a greater likelyhood of people moving between the two.
This assumes a player base not large enough to easily populate two arenas. Given that, there would be no additional "load" to disrupt playability in the MA.
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What if there was a way in/out of the sectioned off area and it took up a side of the MA instead of the center. Make the mountains like you said and make a small pass that would make it possible to get in/out but slightly difficult so people don't pass in/out by accident.
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Put three bases close together in the corner of a map, ring it with some regular mountains but add in alot of tough hitting 88's so the FPS don't crumble due to the terrain. Do NOT enable C-47's there. Bombers only if they can't bomb any of the three bases.
I like the dogfights for the most part. I hate when there's been an hour or so of some fantastic furballing between many players on a couple of sides only to look up as a 25k Lanc comes in, solo - with no intent or ability to capture the base and the bastidge shuts down the FH's.
But do not make it a seperate arena because Popeye is 100% correct, as folks will gravitate to where the numbers are. Besides, it's nice to still hear all the banter on channel one and I like being able to change the gameplay by selecting another base and the geography without having to log off the MA and go to another arena.
-Westy
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The whole >Dogfight only area< brings back bad memories of AW3 Big Pac Fighter Town.
20 BZ agains 10 AZ and 10 CZ while the rest of the AZ and CZ raped the BZ lonely landscape.
The fights were fun, but for the guys that didn't Dogfight, it sucked being run over because no one would help you.
Then there were all the "Nintendo" comments...sheesh.
SkViper
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Hm, I think it's fun to fly the early war planes. More of a challenge, and I do reasonbly ok in the g2, g6 and f4.
190A8 is more challenging for me though (but a late war plane in terms of year introduced (not performance though)), so I fly it now.
When the perk system comes, I'll save all my perk points and fly the early 109's, Will be fun shooting down F4U-4's in a 190F4 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Ok... pops idea is fine except that I would like to have carriers for early war planes at some point....
The real reason I want a seperate "section" in the common arena is because it will all be on the same map. A person can check radar, make decisions and switch feilds/era's effortlessly while still keeping the planeset fair parity wise.
People will tend to try new planes/eras in such a situation much like they try buffs or vehicles or manned ack or what ever now... they will do it when they get bored with their current situation. If the action in the mid war area gets old you can look at the map and be turning and burning in canyon world in a flash. If endless adreniline rush starts to get old... Jump into the mid war era or the uber area.
I can think of no other solution that would allow early war planes to compete without forcing an early war only generation or RPS. Can anyone???
I, and my squad were bored with the map last nite. Everyone seemed to want more action than was currently available. We logged a few at a time. I can't help but think that we would have migrated to a turn and burn early war area for a while if it had existed.
More choice and variety is all that I am advocating but I think that a lot of the thinly disguised fear is that people will all go to one arena or another therefore "forcing" you to go where the people are. I don't see this happening and I see the early war area as a mere diversion for the vast majority and a welcome change of pace at times.
lazs
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since AH has the tour thing. the best way to incorporate the early war aircraft would be make each tour a set of years. Tour W "the beginning" only planes in service prior to July 1942. Tour X all Planes available prior to July 1943, Tour Y All Planes available prior to July 1944 and finally a Tour Z where all planes are again available. Then just repeat. this adds to realism, since it follows the progression of the war. It gives all the planes the chances they historically had. As for carriers you can still have them and even plane them but by the planes available by year. Until early war carrier planes are available the TBF could be used, that would not be ubber I would guess.
UncleBuck
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unc... Some people will absolutely refuse to fly planes from certain periods. Every sim I have seen has a drop in numbers during early war only periods. Don't get me wrong.... I love early war but I have learned to face facts.... Some/a lot of people simply will not fly unless their mustang or dora is available and they outnumber the early war pilots in every case.
Early war planes require a different skill than late war and some people are not very flexable. No way to "force" em or "entice" or belittle em into it.
Seperate arenas die due to the fact that everyone goes to where the people are or where their buddies are. It is too hard to get people to leave one arena to fill an empty one. Generational themes just cause a drop in player base during unpopular generations.... these are the facts of life as I have seen them in WWII flight sims. Seperate arenas or rolling planesets don't work well.
lazs
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
I, and my squad were bored with the map last nite. Everyone seemed to want more action than was currently available. We logged a few at a time.
You are not a Rook are you? Unfortunately, we Rooks had gathered lots of land and last night got our lights put out. The problem was that there were more than 55 each of Knights and Bishops, but less than 45 Rooks.
This makes for boring milk runs due to the overwhelming odds where most people were flying.
Originally posted by -lazs-:
More choice and variety is all that I am advocating but I think that a lot of the thinly disguised fear is that people will all go to one arena or another therefore "forcing" you to go where the people are. I don't see this happening and I see the early war area as a mere diversion for the vast majority and a welcome change of pace at times.
lazs
I was in Air Warrior when the Big Pac Arena was interrupted by the new Euro Arena.
Over 1/3 of the pilots moved to the new arena and fewer than 1/3 stayed in Big Pac.
The rest stopped flying as frequently and some even cancled their accounts.
It was not much fun.
SkViper
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sk... I said arena but meant "area" as I said later in the quote... I agree with you that mid war euro is allways going to shut down any other arena. I prefer early war and/or PAC but I have faced the facts that there is a much smaller percentage of people that feel the way I do. Probly about 10-20%... Two arenas won't work... I feel that 2 AREAS will.... being able to keep track of what is happening in the early war area easily and being able to shift to it when boredome sets in (for whatever reason) will probly keep that area populated with a viable number of players.
No... I don't fly rook. The new map is to many of my squad... less fun and the action is harder to get into.... The fact that bombers can close or limit a field so easily makes it even worse. By the time you get to a field it is either closed or nothing is happening. A wasted run. One is ok I suppose but when that happens 2 or three times in a row then an hour has been wasted IMO.
An early war area would do a lot to mitigate the frustration. Sure, endless excitement gets old but... It sure would be nice to have the option.
lazs
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Agreed!
I did have one thought though while relating to your frustration about losing an hour of time because some dork ran around in a Lancaster dropping the fuel levels at 4 bases.
My thought was of the poor Germans and Japanese that must have felt this frustration in much greater depth as the Allied forces targeted strategic options such as fuel and steal supplies.
I would add, that this feeling probably just changed my thinking, and I will have to learn to live with the frustration.
SkViper
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sk... think it thru. The germans were never short of fighters and were limited in fuel only towards the end after YEARS of bombing and even then.... Not seriously. The japs never ran out of planes or fuel. A lone high alt lanc should not be able to close a field in one sortie much less one pass! For him to limit fuel at 4 bases is laughable.
Regardless... frustration builds for many reasons. Boredom sets in also. An early war area would be a great temporarry change of pace for most. It would allow the introduction of early war planes. maybe there are a few that like to fight -4 Corsairs or bearcats in P40's or Spit ones but they are rare.
Look at the problems with getting late war planes introduced. "Perk"? LOL well, i would laugh but I don't think the results will be funny. Frustrating is more like it. Perfect way to destroy the parity of the current planeset. Still.... How ya gonna get some of these great late war planes in the game? Perhaps they need an area also.
lazs
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Personally I think the rotating Tour would work.
If tour A were 1941-1943ish, and Tour B 1943-1944, then everyone would have some plane to fit their style.
Then just alternate between the 2.
I think this would be a fair split.
SkViper
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sk... I agree. It would be a fair split but.... Fair has nothing to do with it if it alienates players. i would love it but I admit that most would hate it. Simmers are not flexable enough to switch styles it seems. Heck, A new stick with different tension than the last one throws me for a loop for a while.
Every sim I have seen that tried to have PAC or early war periods lost player base. I wish that weren't so but so far, it is.
I believe that with my idea people would have freedom to choose in a viable manner with the least impact on other peoples fun. Perk planes are just a poorly thought out version of my idea but directed at late war planes. Perk as a reward? LOL... why not just punish other behavior by making them fly P39's? That would get early war planes in the game wouldn't it?
lazs
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Originally posted by SkViper:
Personally I think the rotating Tour would work.
If tour A were 1941-1943ish, and Tour B 1943-1944, then everyone would have some plane to fit their style.
Then just alternate between the 2.
I think this would be a fair split.
SkViper
SK, I'm with you on this one... As long as I get to fly a Hurricane during early war...
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The main arena should have no aircraft limitations.
Early war aircraft need to be modeled for the sake of scenarios... if nothing else.
So what if they don't do well in the MA... I guarantee people will still fly them. The love for the planes is there. The challenge is there. The desire to shoot down a late ware plane with an early war plane is there.
The historical accuracy should stay in the events.
AKDejaVu
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ak that is fine but... why not have an area in the arena for early war planes that is either very hard or impossible to get to with late war planes? Certainly some will fly early war planes under any conditions but... Most will only fly them if they have some parity (a fighting chance) no matter how much they like em. Scenarios? Who cares? They hold no interest for me. You are welcome to them tho and with my "area" idea you couyld practice in the MA against the planes that you would meet in the scenario...
Boils down to... limiting peoples plane choice by RPS or rotating generations doesn't work... Putting early war panes in with late war planes doesn't work. So.... Why not my idea? Who would be hurt? Seems win/win to me. If you love to fly early planes you could. in a fair environment. If you don't... You could ignore them. If you are like most people and just get bored once in a while you could easily switch to something different.
I am open to other ideas tho. How do we get early war planes in the MA and make em a viable choice?
lazs
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Zazen flew a a8
Maybe you were thinking of pal in his dora?
One time a guy came to the arena playing as zazen. No 6 kill missions but still flying a good k/d.
He said he flew as ypsilon in wb.
Who told you he was mage? Thats interesting.
Oh one more thing every good player from wb who ive run into says he never played aw3.
I think there was alot of name stealing going on between games.
EYE
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Scenarios? Who cares? They hold no interest for me.
Erm... you argue no late war vs no early war and scenarios hold no interest for you? Wierd.
How about this. I care. There are times that historical is aplicable and times it is not. Making it aplicable in the MA means limiting planes in some capacity. I am not for limiting planes in any capacity. People should be able to fly whatever planes they want.... good or bad.
When you want to see how a plane would do against a plane with anything resembling an attempt at realism.. you need to fly scenarios or make your own scenario type engagements. It seems you want HTC to do this for you with the MA. I don't.
You are welcome to them tho and with my "area" idea you could practice in the MA against the planes that you would meet in the scenario...
You can still do that in the training arena. That is what it is there for. The main arena is there so you can go anywhere and fly anything. Two totally different arenas with two totally different concepts.
Boils down to... limiting peoples plane choice by RPS or rotating generations doesn't work... Putting early war panes in with late war planes doesn't work. So.... Why not my idea?
Because there is no need for it. Segragate where it is absolutely necessary... not in the MA.
As far as why physical barriers won't work.. its because you will inevitably force people to fly late or early war planes in order to win the war. Eventually, you'll have to take a base down there.
Or go with one (for each country) latewar base with the bases indestructable... thus relegating the latewar plane area to a virtual furball. Strategy be damned. And with only one base.. I'm sure vulching won't be predominant by the side with late-war numbers. "Go to another base"... "er... wait.. you can't".
The only real alternative is to have separated period arenas. A very bad idea in my view since it will divide the community even more than your idea. Put all the planes in the main arena where all planes should be available. Put the planes in the Training arena where people can actually practice with some resemblance of historical accuracy. Use the aircraft in historical situations in events and scenarios.
Anything else simple makes things too complex.
AKDejaVu
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ak... scenerios are limited to axis vs allied and far too limited for me. I am not trying to make the MA "historical" mereley trying to get early war planes in the game without limiting choice or parity but... I have not tried an AH scenario so I may be wrong and I may enjoy them.... I certainly don't want them to be the only place where early war planes have parity.
Ok.... "winning (lol) the war"... you have a point. I truly did not even think about winning the war. I still don't care but... I would say that having the early war fields not count towards "winning the war" would be fine. After all, many airfields in the war were bypassed in different theatres with no affect on the war. If each color had only 3 early war fields then a reset of the early war fields would occur when one country lost all of it's (early war) fields. They would have no affect on the rest of the arena. I am sure that most early war pilots would forgo the dubious (I have yet to see a win in AH) pleasure of "winning" in order to be able to fly those great early war dogfiters. Those who live for strat would not be affected by the early war area. Again.... you could just ignore it.
Late war.... I don't know. Not all that interested. It is no accident that HT developed the mid war set. The interest and the bulk of planes that have parity lies with mid war. Late war could be set up much as I have suggested for early war tho. The bulk of people would still of course, fly mid war and that is where all the strat and fields (and players) would be.
lazs
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Originally posted by Beurling:
Zazen flew a a8
Maybe you were thinking of pal in his dora?
One time a guy came to the arena playing as zazen. No 6 kill missions but still flying a good k/d.
He said he flew as ypsilon in wb.
Who told you he was mage? Thats interesting.
Oh one more thing every good player from wb who ive run into says he never played aw3.
I think there was alot of name stealing going on between games.
EYE
Ah I remember hunting down Zazen at 35k in the ol' F-26...ah memories.
Almost as fun as out looping Soup while he went a' spin fighting.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)