Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Big Rat on September 02, 2009, 10:38:30 PM
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I've been thinking on this for quite a while and fought both sides of this but can't figure something out. Here is the scenario. Take an F4U-1a 25% fuel and a 109G2 50% fuel and merge them both head on at 300mph. Both planes pass and immelman back into each other, pretty even so far and both come back close to head to head. G2 then proceeds to immelman back over again, hog doesn't have the speed to do it once again and is forced to dive or flat turn. Either case the G2 is now in a superior position to dive on the hog. Been trying to find a good counter for the hog but come up blank.
:salute
BigRat
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I've been thinking on this for quite a while and fought both sides of this but can't figure something out. Here is the scenario. Take an F4U-1a 25% fuel and a 109G2 50% fuel and merge them both head on at 300mph. Both planes pass and immelman back into each other, pretty even so far and both come back close to head to head. G2 then proceeds to immelman back over again, hog doesn't have the speed to do it once again and is forced to dive or flat turn. Either case the G2 is now in a superior position to dive on the hog. Been trying to find a good counter for the hog but come up blank.
:salute
BigRat
If you are merging at 300 IAS in the F4U-1A and are not able to pull into a second immelman ( er do the Double Immelman ) then you are scrubbing off TOO MUCH E ( energy / speed ) in the 1st Immelman........ you should be able to perform the second Immelman with the use of flaps, dropping them as the speed is slowing coming thru the 1st Immelman /entering the 2nd Immelman begin to drop flaps progressive...should end up between 3 to no more than 4 notches of flaps out.....
If your opponent in the 109-G2 is very agressive on the initial merge/immelman he will have burned up close (but not the same , it will be less ) E/Speed ........ alot of this is based on the experience level of the person flying the 109-G2 vs the same criteria for the F4U-1a ( the person's experience level in the F4U ).......
another approach, for the F4U-1A pilot, use a pitch back ( diagonal Immelman sort of )....... for the 1st Immelman reversal to save some added E, and to throw you out of sync to a 1 circle fight......... he will have to look harder to keep eyes on you if you not in a pure vertical Immelman, to where you , yourself can still use your forwardup/up/back up/back views ("Primary Views" )...... he may have to use those forward up right, up right, back up right views ( what I call "secondary views" ) (edit: the reference to views with the up modifyer and to the right is for example only,...either "up right" or "up left" situation depending )..... this sometimes creates added work load for the opponent if you can get out of the direct line of sight...... added workload ( SA requirements ) causes people to become SA Overload and make mistakes......
hope this helps..... ( PS. Big Rat, I am still in process of what we discussed in our PM messages )
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Thanks TC for the reply. I haven't been on the hog side of this for quite a while (haven't dueled with a good 109 stick for a while) but can pretty consistently do it to others in the G2, did it yesterday to one of my squaddies vs his 1a. I see what you are saying about rounding off the first immelman to keep some speed and try to get out of view (especially considering the 109's poor visibility). I've been pulling this move with the G2's vs hogs for quite a while and it's been super effective, so much so I was getting scared as a hog driver. I can't recall trying it on any veteran hog drivers though to see how it plays out then. If there are any volanteers I'm normally in the TA around 9:00 central, hog or G2 sticks welcome. Thanks again TC, and please keep me posted witht he PM stuff :aok
:salute
BigRat
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Big Rat next time I'm in the TA give me a shout F4U and 109g2 are two of my favorite planes. I'd be glad to work on this with you. That way we can both learn something.
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109G vs. F4U is one of my favorite matchups in the game. Perhaps because they are quite different in many ways, except for top speed around the deck, which means that neither can really run from the other, and each must fight his own type of fight.
TC's response is excellent. Here is a dumbed down way to consider it (the way I use):
As the Hog, if the 109 wants to fight vertical, speed is your trump card. Given the uber flaps and gear, consider speed as something that you can shed almost immediately if you really need to (if the 109 is clearly forcing a horizontal fight), but keep it at all costs if you suspect the 109 is any good. His superior climb only comes into play when your superior zoom is negated.
In other words, if you two were to fly parallel at 300mph and climb 60 degrees for 10 seconds, you would both have gained around the same amount of altitude. However, if you were both to fly parallel at 170 mph and climb 60 degrees, the 109 would have noticably gained more even after just 10 seconds of climb.
Your zoom ability keeps you in the vertical game. Keep it as long as you can. Meaning, stay reasonably fast for as long as you can. From your example, it sounds like you are being too aggressive on the merge, and losing enough E so that the 109 pilot knows you can't match the second immel. There's no reason for you to try at all costs to win the first loop after the merge if you know it's going to set you at a disadvantage immediately after.
If it was me in the F4U, I'd keep my first loop after the merge wide and gentle. Keep as much E as possible. It's OK if the 109 turns inside of me on the first loop, because I'm going to gently manuever to evade his brief crossing shot if he has one (single 20mm snapshot is a risk you can take in the hog). I would use the second immel as my chance to set up a shot, or, if the 109 has also conserved E, I conserve as much E as I can and attempt to hang at the top of the second loop for a shot. Depending on the fight, from the starting speed you described, you're usually not going to be able to pull a third loop, but with proper E conservation you should at some point have the opportunity to set up a high kill percentage shot.
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i roped a corsair just as you mention last night. he had a lot of speed......as did i. i dove slightly under, and slipped off to the side slightly(as he looked to be setting up a ho), gently pulled up.....rolled level, and slight elevator, drop some flaps. he tried the same....i was watching him try to do the same as me, then he just wobbled a bit then "fell off". it caught me off guard, but i chopped the throttles, stood on the right rudder, and got over on him. i then proceeded to remove his wing for him. :D
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Thanks Guys,
Sik1, deffinitly get with you next time I see you in the TA to work on this.
trotter, excellent post as always. I think part of the problem is how I teach the merges with a hog and I might have to rethink it a bit after some experimentation. I normally teach that the one who gets the gun solution first normally at least has a psychological advantage. For example you are finishing your turn and the other guy is trying to line up his shot on you already, not the best feeling. Now against a veteran opponent this doesn't mean much, and you should be concentrating more on your next move rather then a snapshot that may put you out of position. My normal way of teaching the hog is kill the guy quickly before he gets a chance to sap all your E and or potential E. Hopefully within two merges to gain the advantage. Since I'm normally fighting hog pilots I worked with or taught, I may have caused them to have an achilles heal vs the double immelman with a G2. Albeit I haven't run across many planes that have tried to pull this on hogs too often, probably let the cat out of the bag now :eek:. I really need to have a good G2 stick try pulling it on me to see how I react and what the hog will and won't due at those speeds, and produce a repeatable counter. you guys have giving me great ideas at what to try when I get to this situation. Unfortunately the last guy I had to work with with this and was pretty good at pulling it on me was Yanksfan in a spit 9 over my 1 hog, I know I used to beat him at this sometimes just don't remember what I did. That's been quite a while since he was around so I may have figured it out myself but haven't practiced the moves against anyone in so long I don't know what to teach.
Cap1, good job :aok, now that you know this information you must never use it against a hog again, so please erase from memory :noid Cap as always you are welcome to come in the TA and spar with me anythime :aok
:salute
BigRat
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Thanks Guys,
Sik1, deffinitly get with you next time I see you in the TA to work on this.
trotter, excellent post as always. I think part of the problem is how I teach the merges with a hog and I might have to rethink it a bit after some experimentation. I normally teach that the one who gets the gun solution first normally at least has a psychological advantage. For example you are finishing your turn and the other guy is trying to line up his shot on you already, not the best feeling. Now against a veteran opponent this doesn't mean much, and you should be concentrating more on your next move rather then a snapshot that may put you out of position. My normal way of teaching the hog is kill the guy quickly before he gets a chance to sap all your E and or potential E. Hopefully within two merges to gain the advantage. Since I'm normally fighting hog pilots I worked with or taught, I may have caused them to have an achilles heal vs the double immelman with a G2. Albeit I haven't run across many planes that have tried to pull this on hogs too often, probably let the cat out of the bag now :eek:. I really need to have a good G2 stick try pulling it on me to see how I react and what the hog will and won't due at those speeds, and produce a repeatable counter. you guys have giving me great ideas at what to try when I get to this situation. Unfortunately the last guy I had to work with with this and was pretty good at pulling it on me was Yanksfan in a spit 9 over my 1 hog, I know I used to beat him at this sometimes just don't remember what I did. That's been quite a while since he was around so I may have figured it out myself but haven't practiced the moves against anyone in so long I don't know what to teach.
Cap1, good job :aok, now that you know this information you must never use it against a hog again, so please erase from memory :noid Cap as always you are welcome to come in the TA and spar with me anythime :aok
:salute
BigRat
i absolutley love coming in there and sparing with you, and the others in there dude!!
some of the most fun fight really. :salute
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Gentlemen...
I am by no means a trainer, but I routinely fly the 109s and enjoy flying them.
My advice to a hog pilot would be NOT to engage a 109 Co-E, but rather come in with an advantage. Sure that's common advice, but I feel with US birds vs 109s, this is quite important. The 109 series has some of the best climb rates (and by extension acceleration and E building abilities) in the game - in fact, that is why I like flying them.
I visualize E advantage as progressing as Climb Rate Advantage * Time. If you enter a Co-E flight a 109 flying conservatively with his energy around merge, you had better hope you can nail him early on. If not, his superior climb rate will quickly let him build up enough energy to convert into angles for a guns solution.
Thus seek ways to accelerate the pace of the fight - use your superior slow speed handling (I assume the hog has better slow speed handling, I may be wrong) to nail the 109 with a gunshot early. The longer the fight drags out, the greater an advantage the 109 stick will be building on you. If you miss your opportunity early, best to extend away.
My mindset flying the 109 should clue you in a bit - when I meet a much slower climber Co-E, I will tend to go for a long spiral climb (shallow climb) or a lazy zoom. I tend NOT to go for a classic rope - the classic rope bears a great deal more risk in case you misjudged the initial E-states. If he's coming in faster than you thought, he could easily put 2 in the back of your head at the top of the rope.
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boomerlu,
Thanks for the reply. Yes you are right in the longer the fight the more the 109 has the advantage. As far as engaging them (109g series or F) co-E, I really don't feel the hog has a big disadvantage here due to it's great zoom climb. This is of course considering both combatants are going to be aggressive. As you said, if the 109 is flown conservatively it can pick the point of time to fight by climbing slowly out of reach. The hogs main advantage over a G series 109 is it can get into it's flaps at 250 while the 109 has to wait till 200, so the 250-200 range is what I call the hogs sweetspot against an enemy con, and the point at which you try to gain the advantage. At lower speeds the G2 can be just as deadly a turner as a hog in the right hands, takes a bit more finesse due to it's high engine torque and low weight but turns very well and can beat it around the circle. The hog at low speeds is very forgiving and predictable for the most part, so easy to handle at low speeds, and doesn't have near the torque issues the 109 has.
:salute
BigRat
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Been working on this a bit, as far as putting a hog through a double immelman. It can be done even down to a 250 ground speed but requires quite a bit of flap and throttle work on the second one to get it over, if I was somewhat aggressive on the first immelman. At 300 it's not much of an issue. It's deffinitly easier in the 109 G2 at either speed, and the second one is always snappier with it, then the hog. But I'm deffinitly feeling more confident with the hog for countering the double immelman with a G2. Now just have to try it in practice with an opponent. If you cross a F4U-1a and a 109k4, due you get a F4U-4 :lol
:salute
BigRat
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BigRat,
Ahh, didn't realize you were focusing on the specific double-immel move, my mistake for not reading more clearly. If you both fly that aggressively, then it comes down to whoever rides the edge of the envelope better. From what you've said about all that flap/throttle work, it sounds like you already knew this (whether directly or instinctively) and are getting much better. I just would not fly the 109 that aggressively Co-E if the merge happens around 200-300 mph. I would bide my time and go aggressive when I have built up the advantage.
Personally however, I visualize ACM as a fluid process rather than a series of "moves". I know the "moves" and often use set piece tactics, but overall, I am constantly evaluating the situation and picking a fluid way to deal with it. I probably would never even think about trying to find a counter to something so specific as a double-immel.
I'm always asking myself "How's my E state compared to him? What about any angle advantage? What's my speed? How could I get behind him best? Do I need to put up a guns defense right now?"
In your case, all the advice given by others applies to how I would fly. I would begin by doing a lazy low-G pullup and evaluate what the 109 wants to do. If I see he got greedy and is already trying to get his guns on me after the first pass, I'd keep on climbing, maybe pulling over the top and rolling level to go shallow, or maybe going into a flat turn at the top of the climb. With the E he blew trying to get guns-on, the 109 won't be able to follow you up immediately. That goes for a double-immel as well, even if the first one was somewhat lazy/conservative. An aggressive second-immel would be too early to have built up a good advantage for the 109 to get a good guns solution.
At that point, I'd either wait for him to stall out trying to climb up, or (if he refuses to try to climb up to you) wait for the right positioning to drop down on his 6 for the kill.
If at any point he DOES get guns on, I'd roll to point my wingtip at him to give him the hardest shot possible (90 degree deflection, no planform) and keep trying to make him blow energy.
The reason I don't recommend engaging Co-E A-D hog vs 109G2 and above is that as the Hog, you are relying on your opponent making a mistake and blowing his energy by flying too aggressively. It's been done before, and not unlikely. I probably have been such a sucker before myself. Nonetheless, this means the Hog is not in control of the situation. With its superior climb rate/energy building characteristics, the 109 can dictate the terms of the fight if he so choses.
In fact, if we are talking about sucker moves... try this as a counter: let him immel once and get your six. You pretend to go up with him, but as you see him pulling around, you reverse your climb and go for the deck (assuming we have some space to accelerate to around 500 mph). If the 109 follows you, he should be dead meat ;). He'll either lawndart or blow a lot of energy/positioning trying to recover from the dive.
Re: the 4 hog :lol. Yeah... somethin like that. Still doesn't climb like a K-4 though :D, but I wish the K-4 had guns which were as easy to use as the 4 Hog. :(
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boomerlu,
Yea, you reading too much into it. This is more of a dueling situation that I was trying to find a counter for, in which case both aircraft at the merge are trying to be as equal as possible. This entire post came from the fact that almost every hog I tried to pull a double immeleman on with a G2 was found floundering under me unable to make it up the second time, and an easy target (under dueling conditions). In other words I thought I found a pretty reliable magic hog bullet with a G2, given equal e-states at 250-300mph. Now being someone who often teaches the hog, this was concerning me, so I started this post. So I started trying double immelman's at those speeds with a hog and it can do it, but takes a little work. My experience flying the hog almost every day for about 2 years now, (was originally a 109f/G2 guy for the first year) is probably why I'm able to do this under stressfull conditions and the others I've run into haven't gotten to that point yet. I simply haven't had anyone really try it on me for a long time, nor have I tried it on a fellow vet hog stick. Now in the MA's with a G2 fighting a hog that I'm not sure of the E state, would I try this, probably not. More likely, like you said you would do, I'd try some lazy climbs and spirals to both judge e-state and competence, before commiting an aggressive attack. So yea this is a post on a specific condition rather then fighting a hog vs a 109g2 in general. Albeit it is one of the better match up's in the game and I love both planes for different reasons. In fact it's my oppinion that it would be fairly easy to convert an good 109 stick to a good hog stick. Both planes require good flap management and throttle management to fly effectively.
:salute
BigRat
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BigRat,
Glad we understand each other now. Again, my mistake for the initial misreading. :D
Still - do you think it's a good idea for the Hog to try and match the double immel? I'd think it'd be easier to extend above the G2 while he double immels aggressively and blows his energy trying to get the gunshot (which you promptly deny using whatever guns defense maneuver you choose). Once he is unable to maneuver properly, it'd be a simple matter to do a slice and drop in on his tail.
A bit about the psychology of the first gunshot - I tend not to care if I get pinged a few times as long as I know I'm flying proper energy conserving ACM or have a good shot of surviving via extending etc. E.g., I may yield my 6 in a 109 but perform a spiral climb that I know I can use to convert to significant advantage later. Or if I'm in a 190, I know it's pointless to try to engage in any type of a maneuvering fight so I will yield my 6 and extend away, knowing my speed and roll rate will keep me safe enough for me to either run away or get help. Or even more directly, I may yield a brief snapshot if I know I can give him a very difficult shot.
I'm not sure how most people view this and would certainly appreciate your input. Never hurts to understand your opponents.
:salute
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Here is my 2 cents for what it is worth. I fly the spit nine alot lately. But i use to fly the 1a almost exclusively. I am now flying it again quite abit. I personally don't like trying something that is going to cost me to much E. I will pull the first immelman then nose down a tiny bit getting as much e as I can. Then let them go over the top knowing that they will have very little E over the top. as they are coming over the top I start to pull a slightly nose down flat turn letting them think they are going to get a shot as they come down. the problem is because I am turning into them, they have not gained as much E as I have been building.( it is a sneak E merge ) As they start to get guns they have to pull lead and shoot blind under there nose. As they are burying there nose to pull a snap shot. I start to pull vert in line with their wing line. So I am displacing my vector 90 degrees from them then i just barrel roll. The nice thing if I time it right they are blind and cant see me start my turn until I am barrel rolling on to their six. It puts me on there six most of the time with about co E, because the vert and roll cost me a bit. For part if it you will be blind but trust that you are inside there circle and the harder they pull to get another solution the more e they will lose.
If it is a sharp pilot it will go into a rolling scissors. IF not they try to pull up which allows you to put down flaps and hover under them firing from less then 400yrds. If they have to much E as they go past and they start to climb away fast just nose down a bit and start over.
If you ever want to practise pm me.
P.S. If they are paying attention they will pull a vertical displacement roll on you to counter. ^ is a vertical displacement roll as a defencive maneuver.
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OK finally got a veteran hog stick to try this with and have come to the conclusion that the G2 really doesn't have an advantage doing the double immelman over the hog. Boomerlu and Sonicblu, I sent you guys both PM's but probably a bit short notice. I'll reply to your posts tomorrow :aok
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BigRat
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Yeah, I just got your PM. Certainly interested in hashing this out in the TA, but I missed the message and I also don't have a lot of time this weekend/next coming week. Cheers. :salute
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BigRat,
Glad we understand each other now. Again, my mistake for the initial misreading. :D
Still - do you think it's a good idea for the Hog to try and match the double immel? I'd think it'd be easier to extend above the G2 while he double immels aggressively and blows his energy trying to get the gunshot (which you promptly deny using whatever guns defense maneuver you choose). Once he is unable to maneuver properly, it'd be a simple matter to do a slice and drop in on his tail.
A bit about the psychology of the first gunshot - I tend not to care if I get pinged a few times as long as I know I'm flying proper energy conserving ACM or have a good shot of surviving via extending etc. E.g., I may yield my 6 in a 109 but perform a spiral climb that I know I can use to convert to significant advantage later. Or if I'm in a 190, I know it's pointless to try to engage in any type of a maneuvering fight so I will yield my 6 and extend away, knowing my speed and roll rate will keep me safe enough for me to either run away or get help. Or even more directly, I may yield a brief snapshot if I know I can give him a very difficult shot.
I'm not sure how most people view this and would certainly appreciate your input. Never hurts to understand your opponents.
:salute
boomerlu,
As you read my last post, I finally got a good hog stick with me to work on this. Actually did a few hog vs hog first to warm up,before I grabbed the 109G2. I found TC's advice of rounding off the second immelman for the hog to work great and gave the hog the ability to nose up into the 109 if it came in higher. At this point the we normally found the 109 to have the option to fight the hog at it's game or dive away with it's superior acceleration. The hog deffinitly had the advantage if the 109 decided to turn at all after the second immelman (or rounded immelman in the hogs case). It already had a good amount of flaps out and could easily pull inside any sort of turn the 109 could pull at this point. Not enough E from either plane to do much verticle at this point without hanging there like a big target.
As far as your question on is it a good idea for the hog to try and match the double immel vs simply climbing above the G2, momentarily given it its 6 for the opportunity to come down on top of it. Well, looking at it from the G2's perspective and I see the hog trying to extend into the verticle, probably at the point I'm perpendicular to the ground and looking out the top of my cockpit. I'm thinking two options here, first is to relax my immelman to maintain as much E as possible and hopefully can gain enough to go up one more time negating the hogs verticle advantage. This is kinda risky though, depending on how much E I zapped before seeing what the hog did. If it wasn't much then I'd pursue, becouse if the hog doesn't turn it back verticle fairly quickly the acceleration of the 109g2 is going to come into play and E states will equalize. If I pulled the G2 failry aggressively on the second immel and I know I'm going to come out of it slow, chances are I'm going to roll it away from the hog and accellerate the opposite direction. Making this a climbing contest, so I can reset the fight in my advantage over the hog, which climbs like a brick. So is this a good idea or bad? well that would depend on the G2's E state when you do it, and how early or late he catches you doing it. It is something I will experiment with though and see how it works.
Now to the Psychology of first shot :O Now this often depends on what you are playing with. Anything with 4 hispanos on it is a bad thing to give a snapshot to. I used to love Mossies for this, simply flying through a turning fight and aiming for a point on an enemy cons turn that I knew I could intersect and throw a wall of lead in front of them. That thing is a buzzsaw if it gets guns on. Now as far as the one on one first one to turn the corner and get a guns solution psychology. There's always something unnerving about not quite finishing your turn and the other guy is already opening up on you. Now if you can assess the situation correctly and know you are going to pull out of his guns solution quickly and can continue to push an advantage from this point, you push through it like normal. Now if the bullets start hitting your plane before you think the other guy should have a solution this tends to unnerve and cause mistakes.
whoo, I've done a lot of typing :lol
:salute
BigRat
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The hog deffinitly had the advantage if the 109 decided to turn at all after the second immelman (or rounded immelman in the hogs case). It already had a good amount of flaps out and could easily pull inside any sort of turn the 109 could pull at this point. Not enough E from either plane to do much verticle at this point without hanging there like a big target.
Bingo........was my initial observation from your OP...... especially the underlined - bold part, I quoted.......
edit: as far as , a very experienced 109g2 flyer ( Widewing for example), verses a very experienced F4U1A flyer ( Saxman or AKDogg for example), they would most likely match each others maneuvers 1 to 1, with the victor being the one who did not make the 1st mistake........the 109g2 is, as BigRat posted, just as capable as the F4U1a when flying at a slower IAS(speed).... and has the benefit of the use of flaps same as the hog......
YMMV....
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BigRat,
Interesting observations. As far as you managing to counter the double immel - it appears even a vertical turn fight is still a turn fight and thus advantages the tighter turning Hog. I think I've observed this before, getting locked into a looping fight in something like a 190 vs Hurri. Even though I had a decided climb advantage, I still couldn't out turn him - he could always force a HO if he desired.
Regarding lazy vertical extension - I guess it's philosophically of matching one extreme with a different extreme. The 109 we've assumed has turned very aggressively for a gunshot, dumping E for angles. My initial reaction was to do the most opposite thing possible - extend and conserve E and let him drop off because he can't keep up.
Granted, a turn fight is just what a hog wants, even if it's vertical so maybe my initial reaction was from flying great climbers too long. So in this case (and this agrees with what you found), you have more room to be more aggressive as the Hog owing to your better turn.
Psychology - I'll keep that in mind in the future. I tend to fly pretty cold, so the amount people panic surprises me a lot.
I snuck up on a semi-afk Zero once (he was there, but had terrible SA, I climbed up behind him and he didn't react at all) and opened fire. I got some hits, but it didn't kill him, and he dove away. I'm in a K4 so I think to myself... oh boy... he's going to force a turn fight so I move to break away.
After I break off, I roll to put my canopy on him and see what he's doing. I see this guy about a mile beneath me turning wildly and spraying his guns into thin air. I must have made him piss his pants :lol
[edit: he augered doing this so I got the kill]
The most you'd get out of me if you surprised me would be a "Huh? I'm being shot at? Oh, how'd he get there?"