Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Krusty on September 04, 2009, 11:25:38 PM
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Losing a plane because others don't follow the rules is no fun. A number of solid-nosed B-25s were shooting down planes that passed in front of them. I also lost my tail feathers becuase one of these rule-breakers popped me 600 in front of them as I passed by. I saw streams of tracers coming from several other formations as well (6 guns in the nose, I mean) from the B25 raiders that went to a36, a15 and areas north and south.
Other USMC pilots also commented on this and a couple of us checked our film and verified they had solid noses.
Not fun to end a sortie because the enemy had a weapon they shouldn't have. :(
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No need to post it here. Send film to the CMs, let them handle it.
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If you have film submit it.
Will also check the Raw Logs to see what load out that Lee1 who was credit with your kill had.
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If you can search through the logs (in the way that only CMs can) you would get a wider picture of who was using it than my film, as it is localized to one area.
I and fuzeman both caught some on film. Out of a formation of 5-6 bombers, 2 or 3 had solid noses (30-50%) there were probably others as well.
I can submit a film if you are requesting one, but I believe checking the logs is easier and faster and more complete.
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Will have a look.
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As far as I am aware, the 68th were the only squad to be tasked with hitting A15. If anyone has evidence of any member of our squad flying anything other than a glass nosed bomber B25 or P40E, please PM myself, 68Falcon or 68Raptor.
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From the looks of the log, there were no B-25H flying.
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B25Cs have the option of having a solid nose and it carries more guns.
edit: I do find it a little comical that B25s shot down 109Fs that flew in front of their noses, regardless of rule settings.
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B25Cs have the option of having a solid nose and it carries more guns.
edit: I do find it a little comical that B25s shot down 109Fs that flew in front of their noses, regardless of rule settings.
pff, shows how i know about B-25s.
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IIRC from another FSO the game sometimes renders the noses of drones different to what's being flown - I'm pretty sure once when we were flying glass nosed 25s the drones showed solid noses.
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I saw streams of tracers coming from several other formations as well
Out of a formation of 5-6 bombers
IIRC from another FSO the game sometimes renders the noses of drones different to what's being flown - I'm pretty sure once when we were flying glass nosed 25s the drones showed solid noses.
Was not able to make it last night. Is the use of the word "formation" by Krusty to mean singles flying in a group and not a formation w/ drones?
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This thread needs a rename at least....but I won't throw fuel.
The B25C glass nose has a .50 cal mounted on the starboard side of the nose and a gunsight for it at the Pilot's (LH) seat. Anybody flying a single engine fighter into a position where this gun takes them down deserves the result.
There is no point to extending this thread further except for one more post at the bottom containing an apology from the original poster.
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Actually from the CM raw logs we can determine what gun package and ordinance package a person took. So we are looking into it to see which version was launched with.
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pff, shows how i know about B-25s.
Yep pretty much a normal post for you. :rolleyes:
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It does look like a few did up the strafer versions. We dont have the ability to disable armament options unfortunately.
A reminder to COs and players alike, make sure you READ THE RULES re armament ect, and pass it along to your squadmates. There are often ordnance and a/c option restrictions in FSOs. Make sure you go over the writeups.
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This thread needs a rename at least....but I won't throw fuel.
The B25C glass nose has a .50 cal mounted on the starboard side of the nose and a gunsight for it at the Pilot's (LH) seat. Anybody flying a single engine fighter into a position where this gun takes them down deserves the result.
There is no point to extending this thread further except for one more post at the bottom containing an apology from the original poster.
I think the person who owes an apology is you, as the logs confirmed we faced at least a few of the "strafer" C's and more then one was actually trying to "dogfight" over A35....
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Yep pretty much a normal post for you. :rolleyes:
Yea, what can you do.
By the way, you guy put up a great fight last night at the end. We didn't see much action and really wasn't expecting to find one at the end of the frame. Nothing ends a fight better than both of use land without being shot down.
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One of your guys in a Hurri II knocked half the right wing off my Emil late in the fight. I was able to get to A87 couldnt keep it on the runway though and got a ditch.
<S>
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Sounds like we need killshooter back on...
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Um, no. The issue here is that some B-25C pilots upped with a gun package instead of the glass nose like they were supposed to. It is not an issue people on the same side shooting each other.
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I can attest to the fact of drones having solid noses in the B-25 , This happened to me in a snapshot I believe and I commented on it . But not sure about the gun package . but it remains for all of us to up the given A/C assigned with gun packages allowed for sure .
Nutte :salute
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Now I don't know who flew what or that if the B25 drones look different than the plane controled by the the pilot, but it seems to me that the only plane I have a choice to fly is the one that is enabled by the FSO team in the hanger, so there shouldn't be any other type of B25 available to anybody, or for that matter any other type of aircraft/gv that is not on the list. Just an observation, not trying to stir the pot. :salute
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Now I don't know who flew what or that if the B25 drones look different than the plane controled by the the pilot, but it seems to me that the only plane I have a choice to fly is the one that is enabled by the FSO team in the hanger, so there shouldn't be any other type of B25 available to anybody, or for that matter any other type of aircraft/gv that is not on the list. Just an observation, not trying to stir the pot. :salute
The problem is that there is no setting for the CM's to disable specific ordnance loads. There is, however, the ability for us to see what people were carrying when they took off. So, we can only police this after the fact. Its unfortunate, but the alternative is to allow non-historic ordnance variations into the setup. Sometimes we choose not to regulate ordnance, other times we do.
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Sounds like we need killshooter back on...
You don't want that, even in the Main Arenas. Trust me.
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I think the person who owes an apology is you, as the logs confirmed we faced at least a few of the "strafer" C's and more then one was actually trying to "dogfight" over A35....
Dantoo's correct though. Sorry. 9 GIAP has taken myself and a couple squaddies aboard and the result is from my eyes, a success. Good aughs, but Dantoo is as sharp as they come. Communication is excellent.
But the bottom line here, is that some upped with the wrong armament. We had the correct armament. :rock
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Dantoo's correct though. Sorry. 9 GIAP has taken myself and a couple squaddies aboard and the result is from my eyes, a success. Good aughs, but Dantoo is as sharp as they come. Communication is excellent.
But the bottom line here, is that some upped with the wrong armament. We had the correct armament. :rock
Dantoo wasn't "correct", he was flat out wrong. And his conception of what constitutes good flying in a particular situation isn't relevant either....especially when thats wrong as well. I'm certainly going to favor FQ crossing shots vs rear hemisphere ones when engaging a "glass nose" B-25. Krusty didn't do anything "wrong" BTW, we had made a pass thru the buff stream and I had been engaged by a hurricane, Krusty swung in behind to clear and then we both went to re-engage the bomber stream again. The buffs were low and strung out with significant hurricane 2C escort, no way your going to not expose yourself to some measure of risk. I was looking at the buffs but viewing the log Krusty had 4 kills and I think I had assists on all (out of 9 total assists :O :furious :confused:) 4 so we were in tandem the entire attack me thinks. Given the reality of "up the tail" runs on a buff formation, 20mm from an escort or a quick dash "in front" of a formation otw to another he made a reasonable choice...unless of course you have a B-25 with a strafer package. I have no idea if in fact he got golden BB'd or strafed but I do know that I to came under fire from more then one solid nose during those same attacks. Regardless of your opinion on Krusty's BBS offerings he's a very good FSO pilot and the logs prove it time and time again. He got 4 kills before this happened, now without confirmation on the "victor"'s loadout the reality of fortunes of war can't be ignored either....but either way Dantoo's comment was ignorant.
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Snap I don't want to get into a purse fight with you.
What raises my hackles is when people come straight in here and start throwing about accusations of "cheating" in public. The whole purpose of that approach is just to start a ruckus. It just has to. It gets up my nose, and we all know that it is not the right way to deal with a situation like this. It brings FSO down in a spiral every time. Far far better to have it PM'd to the CMs and/or the CO of the squad that you have identified a problem with. That's the point I was making about renaming the thread and apologising to the community over. The pain that this type of post causes is avoidable.
"I also lost my tail feathers because one of these rule-breakers popped me 600 in front of them as I passed by."
The above statement is in the original post. It doesn't give any detail as to speed, angle off centre or really anything other than being 600 in front of a plane type that is always armed up front with .50 cals. My comment (which I agree wasn't really needed in retrospect) was meant to imply that if you place yourself in front of any B25 at D600 you are going to be shot at. If for some reason you think that a B25 driver shouldn't pull the trigger if you put yourself there, then I don't understand it. They put the gun in there for some reason surely? You of all people, should expect to see a medium bomber try and dogfight rather than just lie there and take it. You do it all the time and you do it well. All battles are unique and the one you were in may have offered better survival chances from the FQ. What can't be said is that it is a "safe" way to attack a B25C simply because it is armed and eventually somebody is going to get hits on you.
You and I both admit we don't know how Krusty got killed other than what he posted here and what comes from the logs. Some guy in a Hurri got an assist on him so he obviously had damage before the B25 finished him. If the 25 guy did the wrong thing then that has to be fixed. We both know that too, but it isn't going to be fixed out here in the piercing glare of the BBS world. PMs will be sent, views exchanged and advice given. The problem, if established, hopefully won't occur again.
Now let me clearly and without reservation apologise for causing upset to you and any others with my post.
My mistake is that I did exactly what I accused the OP of; I saw something going on that I didn't approve of, thought it should be fixed, and then rushed to post about it in public instead of using the quieter and more effective channels.
rgds
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deleted, not my business
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Thanx Stoney! :salute
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Stop putting up these ridiculous rules. CM's know what the plane set is so allow the use of everything available on that plane. These complex rule sets get worse and worse with max altitudes, gun limits, etc. For those who don't have time to consult 20 pages of orders after coming home from work on Friday to fly, please simplify the rules. This he said, she said, show me the film because they broke a rule that needed to be broken is getting to be rather tiring. I really would like to fly these with having to go to law school. My nights are busy enough. Better yet get some decent match ups with aircraft that don’t suck please!
Vlkyrie1
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FSOs are going to have rules. So maybe take a deep breath and relax. There are a few ord restrictions in this setup, and there is no alt restriction of any kind. Try reading the orders, they are all 2 paragraphs.
Past that, the issue has been dealt with so pls knock it off now. It's not The End Of Days. :D
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Stop putting up these ridiculous rules. CM's know what the plane set is so allow the use of everything available on that plane. These complex rule sets get worse and worse with max altitudes, gun limits, etc. For those who don't have time to consult 20 pages of orders after coming home from work on Friday to fly, please simplify the rules. This he said, she said, show me the film because they broke a rule that needed to be broken is getting to be rather tiring. I really would like to fly these with having to go to law school. My nights are busy enough. Better yet get some decent match ups with aircraft that don’t suck please!
Vlkyrie1
The attitude that you're too busy to read the orders isn't going to win you any friends among the CiCs. In frame one of the last FSO I actually had pilots telling me DIRECTLY that it wasn't for them to read the orders. EXCUSE ME? NO ONE is above understanding what their orders are. It takes five minutes at most to read through them, and most of the time the information is clear, concise, and provides all those little details of what you can't fly or where you can't land (it's frustrating as hell finally winning a frame as CiC, only to have that taken away because however many people couldn't be bothered to read my orders when I specifically stated what bases were open for rearms). If you're too busy for that, maybe you're flying in the wrong arena.
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I agree with Saxman. In addition, most squads post a version of their orders that only require you to read a paragraph or two and glance at a map.
These rules are what allow FSO to be a little closer to history. They are very important.
If these points are too subtle for you, then god help ya in law school.
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Dantoo,
I'm in no way trying to pick a fight, I've got nothing but respect for both you and your squad. I am/was simply voicing an opinion that you were out of line in this particular instance. The reality is that there is no good way to attack a large escorted buff stream....while the attackers have the edge the combination of 36+ bombers and escorts simply makes totally avoiding fire an impossibility. We only had 6 pilots in the only 109F4 equipped squad for defense of 3 targets. We had little choice but to press in close and make our rounds count. Given the volume of fire it was very hard to identify a particular source. As I did the bob and weave thru the buff stream I had a fire hose of tracer over my left wing at one point...simply assumed it was a hurricane and pressed on to the next buff V. On egress I did in fact have a hurricane on my 6 which Krusty cleared. We approached the buffs the 2nd time from in front and high and curved into bring the front half of the stream back under fire...Krusty got hit (I believe) as we crossed the nose of one formation at high speed and reasonable range (800 or so from my view). Again without knowing for sure I certainly recognize that a good (or lucky) shot from a glass nose might have done him in....but I saw 2 solid nose B-25s dogfighting/HOing over A35 a few minutes later....
I know that our squad (yours and most others) are meticulous in trying to follow the proper load outs etc and I don't feel Krusty was wrong in venting. :salute
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Let's throw up a hint for squad COs on man-management.
Put up a mission and have your people join it. That way, they will take off from the correct field, in the right plane, with the appropriate load out. There will always be hassles with someone running late, server issues and myriad other little annoyances that can't be dealt with quickly through MOTD or other briefings.
The ten minutes before H00 always seems to bring with them a circus. By using a mission you can ensure all your people are being looked after and confusion minimised. You can even display the track to target on the map and one more bonus - they can't join until they've changed to the right country!
When you take off - reload the mission and set the time for H+ 15 minutes. If somebody discos, all they have to do is rejoin the mission and tell you when they are ready to go.
FSO is meant to be fun. Yes, even for COs and CICs and every now and then, CMs.
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Missions don't allow you to select the appropriate skin, which would be the kiss of seat for lend-lease aircraft in this FSO.
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We get our orders as soon as they are cut.If your CO XO cant manage that then take on someone that can. We get our load outs covered in the tower and it takes all of 1 minute.You telling me someone cant even get that straight? If someone is showing up to fly 1 minute before the FSO they might want to have someone e mail them the load out and what have you.This "to busy to care " is just lazy BS.Maybe its time to thin the herd some more.
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Dantoo wasn't "correct", he was flat out wrong. And his conception of what constitutes good flying in a particular situation isn't relevant either....especially when thats wrong as well. I'm certainly going to favor FQ crossing shots vs rear hemisphere ones when engaging a "glass nose" B-25. Krusty didn't do anything "wrong" BTW, we had made a pass thru the buff stream and I had been engaged by a hurricane, Krusty swung in behind to clear and then we both went to re-engage the bomber stream again. The buffs were low and strung out with significant hurricane 2C escort, no way your going to not expose yourself to some measure of risk. I was looking at the buffs but viewing the log Krusty had 4 kills and I think I had assists on all (out of 9 total assists :O :furious :confused:) 4 so we were in tandem the entire attack me thinks. Given the reality of "up the tail" runs on a buff formation, 20mm from an escort or a quick dash "in front" of a formation otw to another he made a reasonable choice...unless of course you have a B-25 with a strafer package. I have no idea if in fact he got golden BB'd or strafed but I do know that I to came under fire from more then one solid nose during those same attacks. Regardless of your opinion on Krusty's BBS offerings he's a very good FSO pilot and the logs prove it time and time again. He got 4 kills before this happened, now without confirmation on the "victor"'s loadout the reality of fortunes of war can't be ignored either....but either way Dantoo's comment was ignorant.
Dantoo,
I'm in no way trying to pick a fight, I've got nothing but respect for both you and your squad. I am/was simply voicing an opinion that you were out of line in this particular instance. The reality is that there is no good way to attack a large escorted buff stream....while the attackers have the edge the combination of 36+ bombers and escorts simply makes totally avoiding fire an impossibility. We only had 6 pilots in the only 109F4 equipped squad for defense of 3 targets. We had little choice but to press in close and make our rounds count. Given the volume of fire it was very hard to identify a particular source. As I did the bob and weave thru the buff stream I had a fire hose of tracer over my left wing at one point...simply assumed it was a hurricane and pressed on to the next buff V. On egress I did in fact have a hurricane on my 6 which Krusty cleared. We approached the buffs the 2nd time from in front and high and curved into bring the front half of the stream back under fire...Krusty got hit (I believe) as we crossed the nose of one formation at high speed and reasonable range (800 or so from my view). Again without knowing for sure I certainly recognize that a good (or lucky) shot from a glass nose might have done him in....but I saw 2 solid nose B-25s dogfighting/HOing over A35 a few minutes later....
I know that our squad (yours and most others) are meticulous in trying to follow the proper load outs etc and I don't feel Krusty was wrong in venting. :salute
You realize you're going on about something that you shouldn't be? All Dantoo was saying (and I still agree with him), is that the OP should've PM'd/emailed/phone call/etc this to the CM's/a CM/etc. But it should not have been brought in here.
Dantoo's comment was not "ignorant". I consider this matter dropped on my end and I'll be winging with my friends in 9 GIAP Friday. Dantoo is an organized chap.
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Dantoo's post was in reaction to the source not the content IMO. I was there, he was not & all of us were caught by surprise. Big difference between a glass nose and a strafer.
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Missions don't allow you to select the appropriate skin
But missions allow a CO to control the airplane and armament for his squad. And isn't that more important than what your cartoon plane looks like?
which would be the kiss of seat for lend-lease aircraft in this FSO
:confused: Please translate.
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But missions allow a CO to control the airplane and armament for his squad. And isn't that more important than what your cartoon plane looks like?
:confused: Please translate.
Yeah, that was intended as "kiss of death." Makes absolutely no sense without the "death" part does it. :lol
I do care more that the aircraft have the correct skin for an event like this than if they have the correct loadout. That's just me though. The rules are more important than my preferences, but you should be able to remain within the rules and use a skin with red stars on it. If I were flying axis, and I saw roundels or white and blue stars, it would taint the flavor of the event. The palm trees are bad enough without adding incorrect aircraft markings.
This dovetails nicely with my beef over substitutions that do not have an appropriate skin, but that's for another thread. ;)
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The palm trees are bad enough...
No worse than windmills and hedgerows in the Pacific
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Missions don't allow you to select the appropriate skin, which would be the kiss of seat for lend-lease aircraft in this FSO.
After you join the mission, Go to the hangar and choose your Aircraft, load out, and Skin in the Hangar. When the mission sortie choice button pops up on the Clip Board, Just launch from the desired spawn.
Once on the Runway, select Fighter or Attack. You're in the mission, and in the skin of your choice.
If you knew that already, please disregard. :)
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I thought the point of a mission was not to give the option of choosing loadouts in the hangar? I haven't joined a mission in a long while. Have they changed at all?
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Just skimming through some of the posts here. The point has been adequately raised, and the CM team is duly vigilant on this issue. I don't have anything to add except I am looking forward to next week. Thanks for the discussion. :)
Now that this dog is asleep, lets just let it lye.