Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Fishu on January 24, 2001, 05:01:00 AM
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Ahh.. after two months of waiting, I finally received a notice from the library that the book is avail.
The book is The Finnish Air Force History, part two: Dornier Do17Z / Junkers Ju88 A-4 (3rd printing)
There I found bit more than just one or two 88's with fixed 20mm "MG FF/M" cannon in the nose.
It was possible to have fixed or movable cannon.
Also I found pictures of 1000kg bombs loaded on the Ju88 (instead of 4 bombs in the wings, this option will limit it to 2 bombs in the wings)
The cannon has accounts of being used to strafe pillboxes and one account tells of a burst shot at Airacobra.
Heres the pictures:
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/forum/ju88-1.jpg)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/forum/ju88-2.jpg)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/forum/ju88-3.jpg)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/forum/ju88-4.jpg)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/forum/ju88-5.jpg)
Cannon was found from at least 4 different bombers.. I did only have a quick look.
(FAF had total of 24 Ju-88's during WW2)
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 01-24-2001).]
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WTG!!!!!!!!!!
Note that the cannon is obscuring the bombsight like I told you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nice Pics!!!!
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Ju 88 is early war uberbomber! Not many of its competitors carried 3000 kg (over 6000 lbs) of bombs at speed exceeding 250 mph.
While heavier forward gun would be nice I would rather have heavier defensive armament to rear quarter.
Maybe we can someday have even Ju 188! One can always hope...
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey I/SG 5
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Originally posted by funked:
WTG!!!!!!!!!!
Note that the cannon is obscuring the bombsight like I told you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nice Pics!!!!
According to that what I read from the book, bombsight was operational even if aircraft was fitted with the cannon.
It would be also very futile if FAF would have over 1/4 of its Ju-88 without level bombing ability.
I were just taking more careful look at the pictures and which planes those are, at least 6 out of 24 has the cannon
I dont know which planes are shown in all pictures, so I can't say if any of those is not yet listed in any other pictures.
about half of the pictures has that cannon sticking out. (where it is possible to see nose part enough)
All of these bombers were equipped with dive bomb sight 'Stuvi' and optical level bombing device BZA and BZG 2, as well Finnish made mechanical night bombing sight TM 42.
In year 1944 there were semi-automatic Lotfe 7 D level bombing sights, but those werent installed in the planes.
so umm.. I think you're wrong on this one funked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I read that 20mm was used to strafe pillboxes, warehouses, troop camps..
Looks like they havent painted off those german markings too hard, I can see dim crosses aside FAF insignia (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ahh.. while reading this book as well, I found picture from inside the cockpit (ill scan this picture sometime when i got scanner hooked up again.. I usually have it off the computer because cable is too short and comes in the way)
20mm cannon is placed to bit right side of the plane as you can see in the picture, but in this interior picture, bombsight is on the left side and theres some big device on the right side over the spot where cannon would be 'obscuring'
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Okey.. I couldn't wait, so I hooked up the scanner..
Heres my proof to you funked:
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/forum/ju88-6.jpg)
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I can't tell what that pic shows. It looks different from the planes in the other pics anyways.
The pics in your first post show the reciever of the gun starting right in front of and above the glass for the bombsight. Unless the receiver is only about 6 inches long, it's going to be right where the bombsight would be. Go look around the inside of the plane in AH to see what I'm talking about.
Maybe the last picture is easier to see for you. Can you mark it up to show me where you think the gun and the bombsight are in the picture?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Nice Fishu (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now THAT is how you do it and prove your point! Not cries of turbolaser and what not.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Nice Fishu (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now THAT is how you do it and prove your point! Not cries of turbolaser and what not.
Bah.. people should already take it as I don't talk just BS
..like they thought of this
I don't bother to wait for #/¤%/#¤/% book every time for 2 months from the library (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(hrrh.. they must be having like couple books of each FAF history part)
and of course I don't mind to order books from amazon etc. where those are bit more common... (or who wants to pay?)
Funked,
I'd believe that gun barrel would be bit left from that whatever stick there is in right frame, starting bit left from ammobelt.
While bombsight is middle / left side
So I don't see how that gun would be obscuring it
Of course I don't have such knowledge as writer of this book or people in the field, but theres no mentioning of the gun obscuring bombsight, just mentions of every bomber having bombsights and working.
So I could take that as 'it works'.
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Fishu I still can't see it.
Look at the AH model and find the level bombing sight. That's where the level bombing sight was in Ju 88A-4. If the gun is located where your external pics show it, looking through the sight would show you a nice picture of the back of the gun.
I'm guessing the Finns moved the bombsight from the standard location.
Wish I could tell what that last pic shows. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Thanks for your work. <S>!!!!
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Originally posted by funked:
Fishu I still can't see it.
Look at the AH model and find the level bombing sight. That's where the level bombing sight was in Ju 88A-4. If the gun is located where your external pics show it, looking through the sight would show you a nice picture of the back of the gun.
I'm guessing the Finns moved the bombsight from the standard location.
Wish I could tell what that last pic shows. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Thanks for your work. <S>!!!!
Last picture is interior of the Ju88
You can see ammobelt of the fixed nose gun in right upper corner and nose plexi in middle.
I dont know how moving the bombsight would be possible though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
They used german bombsights with the exception of night bombsight
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Maybe the gun is shorter than I think.
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Maybe the MG/FF was moved upwards ie. barrel aimed down during bombind run? That way bombardies could perhaps access bombsight below cannon.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey I/SG 5
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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If your looking for a Ju88 to strafe targets with why not the Ju88P-3. It was supposed to be a fairly good tank buster. It mounted two 37mm BK Flak 18 cannon in a fairing under the front fuselage. It had a solid nose. No bomb sight. I think the 37mm is the same one as the Osti. It would be fun to open up on a base with 2 Osti's. It would be very easy for HT to make it since they have the gun and the plane already. If your looking for something better air to air that you can bomb with your plane would be better.
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Originally posted by Jimdandy:
If your looking for a Ju88 to strafe targets with why not the Ju88P-3. It was supposed to be a fairly good tank buster. It mounted two 37mm BK Flak 18 cannon in a fairing under the front fuselage. It had a solid nose. No bomb sight. I think the 37mm is the same one as the Osti. It would be fun to open up on a base with 2 Osti's. It would be very easy for HT to make it since they have the gun and the plane already. If your looking for something better air to air that you can bomb with your plane would be better.
Issue is that whether we should already have an option for 20mm cannon and 1000kg bomb in A-4, not some whole new versatile.
Adding 20mm gun wouldnt need anything, or just a barrel sticked in the nose, like gondola graphics are done in 109.
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Thanks for the excellent pictures Fishu.
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I'm also having trouble interpeting the last shot.. but as far as I know; that JU88-A4 was a functional level bomber; equipped with the nose cannon or not. Never seen any mention of the level bombing capability hindered by the nose cannons presence.
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Hangtime, come to the USAF Museum this weekend and I'll show you what the problem is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Issue is that whether we should already have an option for 20mm cannon and 1000kg bomb in A-4, not some whole new versatile.
Adding 20mm gun wouldnt need anything, or just a barrel sticked in the nose, like gondola graphics are done in 109.
Ok, sorry. I would have to ask then which was the most common version. The one we have now or the one with the 20mm. If it was a weapons package option that would be nice to be able to pick it in the hanger.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/Ju88.jpg)
Here's another picture of the Ju88 carrying a 1000kg bomb on the wing racks. Also note that it's carrying an asymmetrical load, the other is a 500kg bomb.
(Sorry about the integrity of the scan but the book it came from is gigantic and it's very hard to get it placed on the scanner (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
)
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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More pictures here (http://www.netsonic.fi/~fishu/ju88/)
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Well, done Fishu, I love the JU 88,and any variant would be cool by be for them to add (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Brady
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcDEJznXbXfCxAJfgD0a7w1sDVrWuMP28UBOabRCH339Yvya3KrR2Q8UMjrBJ)
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Göring had donated 15 Do 17 Z (variations 1,2 and 3) bombers for Finland, which of 1 had cannon mounted in the bottom nose (DN-52).
DN-52 was Do 17 Z-3
I scanned some photos of it to here (http://www.netsonic.fi/~fishu/ju88/) , which of 3-7 pictures are of DN-52, where in few that cannon barrel is visible under the machinegun barrel.
It has interesting history as well.
DN-52
Z-3 model. Build number 2608. German signs DM+DV. Flown in Luftwaffe for 302 hours 30 minutes.
Arrived to Finland in January 6th 1942.
Were given to 1.Lentue/LeLv 42 in 18.2.1942.
At 30.9.1942 it got hit by a bomb of another Dornier in the nose and spotter Ltn. K.Rundqvist bailed out. Plane was again in duty after a month.
Must been a shock for the spotter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Those pictures of DN-52 being bellied in the snow is from Mensuvaara at 22.3.1944.
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*PUNT*
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Just to point out Funked you say maybe the 20mm is shorter than you thought but you should understand that the 20mm cannon is more in the lower ventral gun prominance.
If you look carefully you can see it would actually go right under the floor to the main pilot/bombers position.the only crew mwmber likely to suffer due to increased space needed by the 20mm is the rear ventral gunner.
look at the second and third picture of cannon and you will see what looks like an engine oil dipstick attached to its barrel...now locate it in the interior shot and you can plainly see the cannons barrel is well below the floor panels(part that looks like corregated hose right on top of them in picture).I dont think there was a flexible mounted 20mm at all but i have seen shots of ju88s with a flexible mounted front 7.9mm mg on a documentary.it was in a sort of plexiglass disc that was mounted in the front glass section.
The way i see it the 20mm was common and should be put in AH after all 20mm with what? 120 rds? would it make the ju88 suddenly deadly? i think not.
I vote 20mm IN (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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Yep, I vote for the 20mm cannon as well as the 1000kg bombs. I've read reports of russian tanks flying "to tree top height" by the force of the bomb blast.
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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hazed, about a month ago, Funked, mietla and I were checking out the 88 at the USAF museum. The problem isn't whether there'd be room for the bombardier. The problem is that running a 20mm cannon would block the gunsight. fishu's interior picture might be conclusive, but I cannot make out either gun or bombsight down there.
Actually, come to think of it, it would explain a lot of things.
You couldn't fit a 151/20 in there. The barrel is just too long. Right behind where you see the barrel is the bombisght. So a rule for mounting a gun up there is that it cannot extend back into the body for more than a few cm.
But the FF has a really short barrel and would probably be the biggest thing you could fit on there. I think it possible that it was stuck on there with the bombsight working.
In fact, compare Fishu's ju88-2 picture with mietla's shot of the MG/FF here: (http://www.raf303.org/dayton/100-0070_img.jpg) .
I have a figure of 53 inches (134 cm) for the MG/FF (not barrel, the whole darn thing). If ju88-2 shows all but the very back part of the gun projecting from the plane. They could have crammed it in there.
OTOH, Ju88-2 seems to show that the bombsight was painted over, implying funked's account.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Having looked up close at that part of a Ju 88A and at an MG FF, the body of the gun is going to extend far enough aft to entirely block the bombsight glass (the small glass panel in the front of the gondola).
The only way they could have retained use of the bombsight is if it was moved or if the gun was moved. But for the standard bombsight position, the gun is too long, and would block line of sight through the gunsight glass.
And remember that the AH bombsight view actually moves your view point to the actual bombsight location. And AH guns seem to be modeled pretty accurately in shape and size. So if HTC add an MG FF in that spot in the Ju 88, and you look through your bombsight, you are going to see... nothing but the top of the MG FF. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-02-2001).]
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hmm...
Some bombers can shoot through their fuselage so I can't see any reason why bombardier couldn't see through the cannon ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Dinger:
OTOH, Ju88-2 seems to show that the bombsight was painted over, implying funked's account.
Look at the other screens aside it, its the light reflection only.
Light reflection from below is hard because its on snowy platform (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It would be fairly insane for finns to have Ju88's with blocked gunsight when takes into count how many Ju's they had with a cannon compared to total number of ju88's which wasnt much.
I remember that I found pictures of at least 6 surely different Ju-88's (and bunch of unidentified pictures with a cannon) with MG-FF/M mounted in the nose.
There were total of 24 planes, this represents at least quorter of bombers having the cannon.
Also there wasn't any mention in the book about it obstructing anything, rather than that there were stories of them making level bomb runs.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 04-02-2001).]
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punt
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Salcor
The meek shall truly inherit the Earth because that is where they will all be buried
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The photo of the MG-FF above is of the fixed version. The one used in the Ju 88, in pictures I have seen, is of the flexible-mount version. This has a bulbous cover over the reciprocating yoke around the barrel, and is also fitted with pistol grips and a shoulder stock. There's a photo of it in 'Rapid Fire'.
Ammo capacity of the MG-FF was almost invariably a 60-round drum. There was a 30-round drum for flexible mountings where space was tight, and later on a 90-round drum was developed. The only belt-fed version was developed for night fighters. It used a separate electric drive for the belt, which had a capacity of up to 2,000 rounds (!!!)
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm)
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In an effort to improve the Ju 88's forward firepower, conversion kits known as Anderungsmaterial(alteration material), were designed which allowed a fixed Oerlikon MG/FF 20mm cannon to be installed in the starboard side of the nose. The lower glass panel on the starboard side of the nose was replaced with a concave panel reinforced to hold the cannon barrel. The Lotfe bombsight was removed and the bomb sight glass panel either faired over or simply over painted. The nose mounted cannon conversion kit could be installed on practically any variant of Ju 88A.
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/JU88-101.jpg)
Ju 88A-5 with MG FF in nose: Note large 20mm ammo drum and overpainted bombsight glass.
Others with same installation: Pic 1 (http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/JU88-97.jpg) Pic 2 (http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/JU88-98.jpg)
The success of the nose mounted cannon conversion led to a factory re-design for mounting the cannon in the ventral gondola. The re-design consisted of replacing the bomb sight's oval shaped optical glass with a shorter flat topped panel. The rounded nose of the gondola was cut back and a flat end plate installed. Whenever a cannon was field installed the flat end plate was removed with the cannon barrel protruded from the opening. Since the bomb sight was removed during the conversion, the optical panel was often overpainted or faired over from the inside. Optional accessories for the cannon included muzzle flash hiders and a ring-and-bead sight mounted on a tall rod attached to the barrel.
Info quoted from "Junkers Ju 88 in action Part 1" (squadron/signal pub. a/c no. 85)
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/Ju88-A4-11s.jpg)
Late model Ju 88A-4 with re-designed ventral gondola, no cannon installed.
The FAF Ju 88A-4 in fishu's pics all appear to be late models with this type of gondola fitted.
Of course, you could go crazy with the hacksaw and welder and come up with something like this: Ju 88A-14, modified (http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/Ju88-A14-10s.jpg)
Also: Ju 88A-4/Torp with Walter rockets, barely visible: Gimme rockets on Ju 88! (http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/JU88-107.jpg)
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/JU88-99s.jpg)
Fishu offering Pyro a cigarette in thanks for finally fitting the 20mm to his Ju 88A-4, note large "F" painted on side of cockpit.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 04-16-2001).]
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Fishu offering Pyro a cigarette in thanks for finally fitting the 20mm to his Ju 88A-4, note large "F" painted on side of cockpit.
[/b]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Juzz you are a god!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Gimme MG FF! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Juzz's stuff seems to say it all! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
let me get this right..FUNKED WAS RIGHT! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
so if we get the MGFF 20mm in the ju88 we have to remove the bombsight?
optional loadout time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
p.s. what a great thread.no argueing or insults and complaints.As it stands we've finally settled a debate.This is what these bb's should always be like (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-16-2001).]
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Im still wondering wtf did FAF use in their MGFF equipped Ju88's to aim their bombs.
I can remember reading about level bombing and strafing...
*figures*
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Fishu I remember a post on AGW a long time ago describing a very simple level bombing sight that was mounted in the nose glass of Ju 88. This is a very fuzzy memory but it makes sense now. Maybe this was what they used on these cannon-equipped 88's?
Also note that they left the glass in the panel on the planes with the flat-nose gondola. To me this means that they wanted to keep the option of removing the gun and installing the original bombsight if the mission required it.
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The Lotfe wouldn't be ideal for low altitude level bombing, so most likely they used another type of bombsight which wasn't installed in the gondola.
Because there's no way you can fit both the Lotfe and the MG FF in there. In the interior photo above, the Lotfe should be visible right behind the 20mm ammo drum. There seems to be a parachute or something sitting there instead.
Not that having both on the AH plane would be such a big deal, what with the other conflicting options on the Ju 88A-4 and several other AH planes already...
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Juzz, remember that the bombsight is part of the 3D model. With the current sight, it would give you a nice view of the cannon and not much else. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)