Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: saggs on September 16, 2009, 11:36:13 PM
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So I'm in the market for a new joystick, (my last one having been fried) to get back in the game, . I keep looking at the button layout on sticks and wonder about how to setup views.
My dilemma:
I used a Saitek 290 for quite a while. Obviously I used the 8-way hat for view around, but it had a button right under the hat which I mapped for look up. I could hold down "look up" button with the middle of my thumb and move the hat with the tip. This way I could use all 17 views with just my thumb.
Well the Saitek died, and I pick up a Logitech 3d Pro, only had it for 3 weeks and it got fried. (see other thread) But I could not figure what button to use for "view up" on it. not having that button under my thumb meant I had to use my left hand for looking up. Which meant I could not look "back up" or "forward up" or up at all with my hand on the throttle, which I used to do in dogfights with the Saitek all the time.
The only stick I've seen around today, with that layout is the Saitek Cyborg Evo FF. So I've either got to get it, or figure out another way to map my views.
So, how does everybody use the view system? Specifically what button do you use for "view up", and on what joystick? or; How do you look up while keeping a hand on the throttle?
Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks
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If you can afford it get separate controls for throttle & rudder/foot pedals this will simply give you more buttons & options.
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Ch Pro Throttle, Pro Pedal, and Fighter Stick Lots of buttons and combos.
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If you can afford it get separate controls for throttle & rudder/foot pedals this will simply give you more buttons & options.
Yeah, sometimes I lust for a nice HOTAS setup. But I'm TRYING to be fiscally responsible.
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Saggs, go with saitek and use pinky trigger switch for view up.
I use it like that for over 10 years, doesn't require two hands, it's quite excellent.
Another thing you can do is use the same switch to chance control sets. You map 1 and 2 exactly the same for all settings, then chance views on hat to 45 angle on set 2. Use pinky in set 1 to switch to 2 and vice versa.
Either of the two works just as well. With second one you don't have to keep pinky pressed, which in some situations might be a problem ( maneuvering when looking at angle )
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Saggs, go with saitek and use pinky trigger switch for view up.
I use it like that for over 10 years, doesn't require two hands, it's quite excellent.
Another thing you can do is use the same switch to chance control sets. You map 1 and 2 exactly the same for all settings, then chance views on hat to 45 angle on set 2. Use pinky in set 1 to switch to 2 and vice versa.
Either of the two works just as well. With second one you don't have to keep pinky pressed, which in some situations might be a problem ( maneuvering when looking at angle )
Ohhh, pinky button, hadn't thought of that, I've never used a stick with one, forgot they even existed.
Which Saitek are you using exactly? I've looked at both the Cyborg Evo, and the Cyborg X neither of these has a pinky button that I can see.
Any other sticks in the $50 range with a pinky button?
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x 54 has a pinky button
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I use one of these...
http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=153&PlatformID=5
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=thrustmaster+t.16000m&cid=16686697976618954624&sa=title#p
If I can get 1 year out of it I'll be happy.
<S>
Grind
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I use one of these...
http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=153&PlatformID=5
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=thrustmaster+t.16000m&cid=16686697976618954624&sa=title#p
If I can get 1 year out of it I'll be happy.
<S>
Grind
Thanks, but that was only half of my question, how do you have the views set up on that stick so that you can keep a hand on the throttle while looking up?
x 54 has a pinky button
Do you mean X45? I see folks selling used X45s on ebay, any opinions on what a fair price for a used one is?
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have the up/down modifiers mapped to something you can reach with your left hand on the throttle. on my old logitech I had the buttons on the base next to the throttle mapped, on my X52 I have buttons on the throttle itself mapped.
I have LH: throttle, rpms, flaps, vox, view modifiers.
RH: controls, views, triggers, station select.
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Yeah, sometimes I lust for a nice HOTAS setup. But I'm TRYING to be fiscally responsible.
If you enjoy this hobby long-term, then the fiscally responsible thing is to buy CH. More expensive now, but it will last years and years, thus saving you money. I've had the same CH stick for 11 or 12 years now.
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I have a ch and i did the mod on rook switch but i use 1-8 way hat switch for 15 diff views using the control mode set-up in aces high. Control mode 1 i have look up,look front left, look left, look back left etc.etc.. Then control mode 2 is look up, look up front left, look up left etc.etc. I use the pinky switch to switch between control mode 1 and 2. I have control mode 3 set-up for gv's using another buton to switch to that view.
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I changed most of the keyboard keys to have everything on the keypad, for exemple "+" is view up and "enter" is view down, the flaps, trimming, autopilot, wep and more are there too, as you don't need the views on the keypad when you have a joystick.
That way you have a pseudo HOTAS setup that works with any stick. not having to look at the keyboard while fighting is a real advantage.
I'm willing to share my cfg files, just send a PM
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Do you mean X45? I see folks selling used X45s on ebay, any opinions on what a fair price for a used one is?
The X45 is the older brother of the X52, which is the older brother of the X52 Pro. I believe the X52 has a couple more buttons (though I don't remember) and more rugged circuitry than the X45. Also, the X52 tends to destroy its cable connection between the two bases much less; the X52 bases connect with what resembles a PS/2 (old mouse/keyboard) connector whereas the X45 uses what looks like a serial connector which screws in. Yank on an X52 cable, it pops out no sweat. Yank on an X45 and it may just tear the connector off the chip.
I highly recommend buying a NEW X45 or X52 and a wall-powered USB hub(they're pretty cheap, can't see more than $10 or $15 for a very good one). These joysticks are VERY heavily power hungry to the point where I think they ought to come with a wall adapter. If you plug them into an onboard or "unpowered" USB slot, the PSU will strain, you'll experience spiking, and the stick will slowly die to undervoltage.
One other complaint that some people have (that I certainly don't share) is that the spring tension is very low. You can hold the base in your hands and jiggle it to get the stick to flop around. I enjoy that because of the way I fly, but others like stiffer springs. This is easily remedied by inserting rubber washers (with a notch cut out to get them around the shaft) or even a cut-up top of one of those CDR/DVDR spindle cases. Anything that shortens the spring will bring up tension.
A short note, I recommend not using the "SST" software that comes with it. It provides the same functionality as most games already do and only seems to cause problems. After you plug it in, I also recommend getting the updated drivers from Windows Update.
So long as you go through this little hassle to set her up right and the way you want in the beginning, they'll last you a long time, give you precise control, and take your hands entirely off the keyboard. The "wonder" of the X sticks is that the X and Y axis are hall effect sensors that use a magnetic field to measure deflection instead of the old standard mechanical potentiometers. Hall sensors don't wear out in any appreciable manner and don't drift.
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Ohhh, pinky button, hadn't thought of that, I've never used a stick with one, forgot they even existed.
Which Saitek are you using exactly? I've looked at both the Cyborg Evo, and the Cyborg X neither of these has a pinky button that I can see.
Any other sticks in the $50 range with a pinky button?
I'm using x3something. Old one. Had it for 7 years now and it works just fine. Then again, i don't play as often as i used to.
I live in europe so no idea on prices.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest:
Mouse look.
Here's my setup. Left hand controls the mouse, right hand controls the joystick.
Sidewinder Precision Pro
Button 1 Fire All
Button 2 Zoom Toggle
Button 3 View Look Forward (I have a different view than standard so as to remove cockpit obstructions)
Button 4 View Look Backward
Slider Control Mapped to Zoom (how much zoom)
Hat Up Flaps UP
Hat Down Flaps Down
Hat Right WEP
Hat Left Range VOX
It's an 8 way hat, the rest of the functions are not mapped in order to minimize accidental triggering.
Mouse
Button 1 Toggle Mouse Look
Button 2 Toggle Mouse Control (I have the mouse controls set to control head position up/down left/right - good for checking both left and right of your six for ex)
Mouse Wheel Throttle
Takes some getting used to - the main benefit is that you can zoom WAY in on an enemy con even if he's not perfectly centered in one of the snap views.
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I'm using x3something. Old one. Had it for 7 years now and it works just fine. Then again, i don't play as often as i used to.
I live in europe so no idea on prices.
Correction X45 it is.
It must be 7 or more years old at this stage. Still going strong.
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Boomerlu
MS Sidewinder Prec 2 usb
Button 1 trigger, primary guns/ all guns.
Button 2 Secondary guns
Button 3 mode select in mode 1 it jumps to mode 2, & vice versa.
Button 4 Flaps, mode 1 = down, mode 2 = up
Hat switch, mode 1 = flat views mode 2 UP views.
Instead of having to hold a button to look up. You setup a button to work as an alternating switch.
Flipping you between modes.
So typical merge nose to nose start in gunsight view, we pass, I go to straight back on hat for rear view, then flick button 3 taking me to mode 2, which jumps view to up rear, then forward on hat taking my view to straight up as I'm pulling through my loop. Then as I come around I flick the mode switch again bringing me from straight up to upforward, once he's slipping out of that view drop the hat as he's back in my gunsight.
Not to say that the way your doing it is wrong, because as long as it works for you, its not wrong.
Just wanted to point out that there is another option out there. One that actually gives you more flexibility. And in effect, doubles the number of buttons you have available.
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Thanks, but that was only half of my question, how do you have the views set up on that stick so that you can keep a hand on the throttle while looking up?
If I had a throttle I would use one of the buttons on it for the up view. On the TM T16.000 I use one of the buttons on the base for the "up- view". Two of the buttons are used for "flaps" (extending and retracting). One for the "landing gear", one for channel number "vox" and one for "combat trim" or "dive brakes" depending on the plane I'm flying. I use my thumb for the "throttle". For right my right hand I use my thumb for the "8-way hat", I also use my right thumb to control the three buttons adjacent to the hat that are mapped to control "wep", "zoom" and the "clipboard", my index finger is used for the "trigger" the other three fingers help control the "rudder". The keyboard is used for everything else......
<S>
Grind
:)
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So typical merge nose to nose start in gunsight view, we pass, I go to straight back on hat for rear view, then flick button 3 taking me to mode 2, which jumps view to up rear, then forward on hat taking my view to straight up as I'm pulling through my loop. Then as I come around I flick the mode switch again bringing me from straight up to upforward, once he's slipping out of that view drop the hat as he's back in my gunsight.
Just wanted to point out that there is another option out there. One that actually gives you more flexibility. And in effect, doubles the number of buttons you have available.
Erm, not sure why you directed this at me Ghosth (might be my question back in the help forum?). No offense taken or anything, it's just odd. I'm not OP on this.
Yeah, I have messed with this idea of having a mode switch. As I've been acclimating to mouse view, I actually find I like it just fine so I suggested this idea to OP because it avoids having to buy anything fancy for the stick itself but I see your idea looks fine too.
Personally I haven't thought about what exactly I'd find as a use for the extra buttons. Right now I have too many buttons and not enough fingers to access them all so some of them go unused (keep in mind the Precision Pro 1 has 4 buttons on the stick itself plus 8 way Hat then 5 more on the base; I used to use the four base buttons as my snap views for my left hand).
Currently those are still mapped to the view buttons - perhaps a mode select would be useful to go back to the "old" control config. Mouse look is pretty bad on planes with inherently bad visibility like the 109 and A6M - snap view has a huge advantage in that every view is "pre-optimized" for one of these rides. On the other hand, I think mouse look is much better on bubble canopyish rides like the 51, spit, and 190 - it reduces the micromanagement of setting up views significantly. All you need is to set rear, default, and forward.
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I have a Pro Throttle from CH products. and it has a very cool [and unique?] feature for viewing. It has a mini analog joystick for your left Thumb. This lets you acess all 17 (plus 9 downward views) with just 1 thumb. Also I always found that working views with my trigger hand lead to a lot of neuralogical cross talk and caused me to push the wrong buttona all the time. Toggling between up views and level views can be affective, but it's still an extra step that can be avoided with the right equipment.
CH products (and probably others) has a reputation for not frying, and having excellent [clean] voltage outputs. since you've already lost 100+ dollars on other sticks with multi function capability, you might try investing in a Pro Throttle instead, and then buying a very basic flight stick which you will only need for flight controls and trigger.
Summary: Put your money in the high function throttle. Use the flight stick money to buy one with good reliability and voltage accuracy for flight control and trigger...ILO lots of bottons and switches.
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"A short note, I recommend not using the "SST" software that comes with it. It provides the same functionality as most games already do and only seems to cause problems. After you plug it in, I also recommend getting the updated drivers from Windows Update"
Is there a driver specific to saitek x52 available from Microsoft ?? As does everyone else using SST , the stick loses
cal very often.
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SST is not a driver. It's a standalone program that never needs to be installed. You can install the joystick by putting in the disk, plugging the controller in, then pointing the "driver search" to the disk. That installs the "release" version of the drivers, which are old. If you then go to Windows Update via the top of the start menu (in XP, at least), there will be an option to download updated drivers for it. They seem to be much more stable and change the way the joystick works.
In the old version, the Mode rotary is actually a "button" that repeatedly spams itself depending on which one it's set to. In the updated version, the Mode switch is all "internal," not revealing itself to games. I play a game called X3 where it can only take one button input at a time, so having the old drivers cripples the joystick.