Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: ghostdancer on September 19, 2009, 04:26:49 PM
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DESCRIPTION
The summer of 1940 had not turned at all like the British had hoped for when they first declared war on Germany. The “Sitzkrieg” had given way to the brutal realities of the blitzkrieg and resulted in the British being kicked off the continent. Their only silver lining was the miraculous evacuation a large portion of their troops (minus their equipment) from Dunkirk along with some French forces. However, the French surrender on June 22 1940 made overshadowed this and made it seem insignificant.
Meanwhile Hitler believed that war was practically over and he expected that the British, defeated on the continent and without European allies, would quickly comes to terms and negotiate an end to the war. This attitude resulted in German forces taking a leisurely several weeks to replace their losses and to take over captured airfields in France while waiting for the British to capitulate. Meanwhile Winston Churchill, the newly installed Prime Minister of Britain, use the time to harden public opinion against coming to terms with Germany to prepare the British public for a long war and what it would take from them.
Finally Hitler and the German high command came to the realization that Britain would not yield but would have to be brought to heal and the only way to do this would be by an invasion. The Germans started planning Operation Sea Lion, the amphibious invasion of Britain, but they realized for a successful cross channel assault that they would need to neutralize the RAF and control the air over the channel.
The Luftwaffe started significant operations against Britain in July 1940. This first stage of the battle was to be known later as the Kanalkampf. The Luftwaffe’s plan was to concentrate on attacking British shipping in the Channel, attacking their Channel Ports, and attacking radar installations along the British south coast. They hoped these attacks would draw out the RAF and allow them to destroy the RAF and they estimated that the RAF would be overcome in four days.
They were wrong.
After 32 days (not four) they finally believed that the British early warning system had been destroyed and their coastal towns and installations had been sufficiently softened up for an invasion. The Luftwaffe then began the next stage of their plan, the Adlerangriff (“Eagle Attack”).
Their strategy was to now concentrate on attacking the RAF coastal airfields. By doing this they hoped to be more successful in destroying the planes of the RAF fighter command while at the same destroying their supporting infrastructure.
However, weather delayed the start of this phase of their plan until August 13th and it would last to August 23rd. The Germans would conduct both low level raids, to sneak past the battered but still working radar stations and also high level raids at the same time. The whole goal was to put pressure on the RAF and destroy their planes in the air or on the ground.
This pattern continued in September and pressure on the RAF 11 Group ground it down to a desperate state. The RAF was forced into pressing into service civilian airfields and suitably level grass fields to compensate for their badly damaged RAF stations. However, there was nothing they could do about their maintenance and spares parts supply situation which had become dangerously stretched. Ground crews working in the open suffered heavy casualties from the raids, and many maintenance facilities were destroyed in the Luftwaffe attacks. Despite this, the crews kept the fighters as combat ready as possible in an attempt to hold on as best as possible against the Luftwaffe onslaught.
The question is can the RAF and hold on?
PLANESET FOR THE FSO
RAF PLANESET
Hurricane Mk I
Spitfire Mk I
LW PLANESET
Bf 109E-4
Bf 110C-4b
Ju 87D-3
Ju 88A-4
COUNTRY PERCENTAGES
The sides will be divided into roughly 45% British and 55% German.
SCORING
SURVIVING FRAME BONUS
Any pilot who survives the whole frame and lands his plane successfully (is recorded as a land .. bails, ditches, captures, etc. don't count) will earn a survival bonus the equivalent to half the points of the plane he is flying. So a Hurricane, Spitfire, Bf 109 would earn 2.5 pts for survival.
AIRCRAFT
05 pts - Single Engine AC with 1 crew
10 pts - Single or double engine AC with 2 crew
15 pts - Double Engine AC with 3+ crew
BASES
288 - Small Airfield
396 - Medium Airfield
572 - Large Airfield
219 - Vehicle Base
SHIPS
CA - 60 points
DD - 30 points
NOTE: The German’s score points for destroying objects at their designated target (base). A list of the point value per object will be released with the objectives for each frame. The British get points for any undestroyed object at a target.
ARENA SETTINGS
- BoB04 terrain
- Fuel 1.25
- Icons short
- .5 Ack
- Radar (Bar only) : 60 mile range,10 minute update, altitude 500 ft and up
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 52,000 (about 10 miles)
- Tower range set to 52,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Clouds / visibility
Frame 1, 9 miles
Frame 2, 11 miles
Frame 3, 8 miles
- Radar off
- Friendly collisions off
- Enemy collisions on
- Kill shooter off
- Calm winds
- Time: 11 AM
SPECIAL RULES
NOTE: special rules sent out with the objectives trump these special rules.
1. Nobody on the British and German side gets a second life flying a plane. This includes Ju 87s.
2. Bomber formations are enabled / available.
3. A minimum and maximum number will be assigned to each aircraft type. The CiC of each side must deploy the designated minimum per aircraft type and can not more than the maximum per aircraft type. Outside of that the CiCs can deploy the aircraft types anyway the want (i.e. can have squads fly 2 aircraft types and in split they wish as long as squads are assigned same objective).
4. If both CiCs agree they may have the setup CM end the frame early by calling a cease fire and RTB publically. All players need to return to base if the CM does this. This is usually done if one side wipes out the other side (i.e. 60 versus 5). Logs will stay open until either the last player is down or T+120.
5. Dead pilots may gun bombers. They may not man the guns of airfields or ships.
6. Ships can maneuver by the allied side during the frame as long as they stay in their containment area. Ships must stay in containment area defined in the objective orders. If they go outside of the containment area a penalty will be assessed.
7. All targets must be attacked within the first hour of the event. Both CiCs should include sending their battle plans to me so that I have proof that they planned to attack their targets by T+60.
8. All attack targets assigned must be attacked by a credible force. I define a credible force to be at the very least 3 x 4-6 squads (so 12-16 planes) or 1 7x10 squad and 1 4x6 squad or 1 11x15 squad. Obviously CiCs can deploy a larger force per target as their plan dictates but no defending or attacking with just 1 x 4-6 squad.
9. All defense targets must be defended by a credible force. I define a credible force to be at the very least I define a credible force to be at the very least 3 x 4-6 squads (so 12-16 planes) or 1 7x10 squad and 1 4x6 squad or 1 11x15 squad.Obviously CiCs can deploy a larger force per target as their plan dictates but no defending or attacking with forces less than the minimum credible force denoted here.
10. Radar is going to be used on the British side since it was a key part of the battle. The radar is bar dar not dot dar. It also has a 10 minute refresh rate to simulate the lag that it took for the radar operators to report information to command and control and then for command and control to relay that to the fighters in the air.
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Frame dates are:
Oct. 2
Oct. 9
Oct. 16
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should the allies have Hurr Mk II and Spit Mk II too?
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AH has no Spitfire Mk. II. As for the Hurricane IIC, it was not a BoB a/c, it entered service in 1941, much too late for the Battle of Britain.
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AH has no Spitfire Mk. II. As for the Hurricane IIC, it was not a BoB a/c, it entered service in 1941, much too late for the Battle of Britain.
Golly, it sure would be neat to have a more complete early war planeset for events. Yup, it surely would.
<ambles off, stage left, whistling tunelessly>
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:aok He-111 would be sweet, but CM's don't control those things.
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Sounds like a great Setup. :aok
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AH has no Spitfire Mk. II. As for the Hurricane IIC, it was not a BoB a/c, it entered service in 1941, much too late for the Battle of Britain.
Even if we had it, the Spit II only entered production in June 1940 which I'm guessing means it only saw limited - if any - service during the BoB.
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Always a great setup, and a ton of fun. :aok
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any fuel restrictions to moderate the 88s' speeds?
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Per HTC plane stats page the Hurricane I and Spitfire I are faster than the JU88. So no there are no fuel restrictions.
(http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ju88-spit.gif)
(http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ju88-hurricane.gif)
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Looking forward to this.
:aok
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Per HTC plane stats page the Hurricane I and Spitfire I are faster than the JU88. So no there are no fuel restrictions.
In the last BOB scenario, the Hurri's simply could not stay with the JU88's once they had to start maneuvering - you got one pass diving in and that was pretty much it.
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I can not comment on the Nov. 2008 BoB scenario since I did not partake.
However, I just did a quick test of the Hurricane Mk 1 and Ju88 and took both up to 3400 ft.
Hurricane Mk I (100% fuel, 3400 ft altitude)
265 = MIL
273 = WEP
Note: Without using WEP the Hurricane got into the mid 250s quick enough but to get it max of 265 took some patience.
Oh, and I forgot to denote bombing calibration. It is manual calibration just like in this past event.
Ju88 (100% fuel, 4 x 500 kg bombs, 20 x 50 kg bombs, 3400 ft altitude)
237 = MIL
Note: A full fuel load on this plane and best bomb load out (imo) definitely shaves miles off this planes performance. The chart has it roughly at 252 mph. I believe the charts are based no ordinance. The Hurricane was basically spot on in regards to the chart.
I will do some more testing to make sure the chart is on and then will check out what a 75% and 50% fuel load does. In regards to fuel restrictions remember the arena is 1.25 burn I will see how the JU88 performs and decide on whether to mandate 100% fuel load or allow them to have a 75% load.
At 100% load the Hurricane definitely seems to be able to catch them.
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Okay with a 75% fuel load I took up a Ju 88 with 4 x 500 kg boms and 20 x 50 kg bombs to 3.4K alt. Overall I flew for 10 minutes (time to alt and then level) and got to 239 mph.
As said I will check higher alts and also will check the Ju 88 with no ordinance.
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I will see how the JU88 performs and decide on whether to mandate 100% fuel load or allow them to have a 75% load.
Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.
At 100% load the Hurricane definitely seems to be able to catch them.
In straight and level flight maybe. Just. However the 15-20 knot rate of closure leaves you little option other than to tail chase and makes you easy pray for tail gunners. If the escorting fighters get you even a little below the buffs, its game over.
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Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.
wouldnt that be hard to enforce?
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wouldnt that be hard to enforce?
It's similar to having a rule against the strafer B-25C.
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No it is not similar. The CMs can tell load out by logs; We can see if a person loaded out with 75% fuel or not in the logs.
The CMs can not tell manifold and RPM from the logs. There is no way to catch or prove that anybody flew faster than a designated rate (i.e. if I tell them no faster than 75% throttle I have no way to verify if a pilot did that or not). Outside of everybody submitting film to me for review and then for me to do an analysis of that film.
So any idea about this FSO using a reduced throttle for the Ju 88s is a non starter.
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Way back in 2002 we ran a BoB FSO (at that time FSO was called Tour of Duty) and at that time the Ju88 was faster than the Hurricane I and Spitfire I. Many people still believe this. It is not the case as the HTC plane charts show. I have also done some quick testing that verify those charts and the Ju 88 speed on them is without bombs. With bombs the Ju 88 speed is significantly less.
You only realistically have three types of flight. Straight and level, diving (you above your target), and climbing (you below your target).
As stated before I am not commenting on the setup of Nov. 2008 scenario and what tactics were used by the participants in it. However, this is not a scenario but an FSO. There are different conditions that apply here.
1) LW targets are known to the British before the frame.
2) LW targets must be hit before T+60.
3) RAF knows the LW launch fields.
Besides knowing the targets and a rough idea of time frame for strikes (say T+40ish to T+60), the RAF also has BAR radar that updates every 10 minutes, and if they deploy scouts pickets in addition to this should have a good idea of where the LW strike forces are if things work well for them.
The Hurricane does have the speed to catch the JU88s in level flight. As the altitude goes up the Hurricane starts to gain a speed advantage over the Ju 88. So in level flight speed advantage to the Hurricane. In a diving attack speed advantage again to the Hurricane. However, the Hurricane needs to make a shallow dive and not blow by their targets in a deep dive past them to an altitude far below the Ju 88s.
I did additional testing of the planes and the Hurricane does have a decent closure rate on the Ju 88.
So again not commenting on what rules, setup, and tactics were used in BoB Nov. 2008 scenario but the Hurricane can catch the Ju88 and does have a good closure rate on a bomb loaded Ju 88. All I will say publicly to the British, or potential British side is practice your bomber intercepts.
10,000 ft ALTITUDE
Hurricane Mk I
100% Fuel
10K alt (took 3.5 full military to get to that alt)
292 = MIL (note once got to 280 it was slow to get to 292 without WEP)
300 = WEP (it was slow getting from 292 to 300 with WEP)
Ju 88
100% Fuel
4 x 500 kg bombs
20 x 50 kg bombs
10K alt (took 13.5 full military to get to that alt)
253 = MIL
Hurricane has 39 mph advantage over the JU88 if using WEP to get up to 292 mph (closure rate of 3432 ft per minute or 1144 yards per minute).
For a Hurricane with no WEP and rebuilding speed lets say it gets up to 280. That is an advantage of 27 mph (closure rate of 2376 ft per minute or 792 yards per minute)
3,400 ft ALTITUDE
Hurricane Mk I
100% Fuel
265 = MIL (note once got to 252 it was slow to get to 265 without WEP)
273 = WEP
Ju 88
100% Fuel
4 x 500 kg bombs
20 x 50 kg bombs
10K alt (took 13.5 full military to get to that alt)
238 = MIL
Hurricane at WEP speed has an advantage of 35 mph over the JU88 (closure rate of 3090 ft per minute or 1026 yards per minute).
Hurricane has 27 mph advantage over the JU88 if using WEP to get up to 265 mph (closure rate of 2376 ft per minute or 792 yards per minute).
For a Hurricane with WEP and rebuilding speed lets say it gets up to 252. That is an advantage of 14 mph (closure rate of 1232 ft per minute or 410 yards per minute).
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In straight and level flight maybe. Just. However the 15-20 knot rate of closure leaves you little option other than to tail chase and makes you easy pray for tail gunners. If the escorting fighters get you even a little below the buffs, its game over.
At 10K alt I believe a closure rate of 1144 yards per minute gives you other options than just a static tail chase. The place to worry about a slow tail closure is at 3.4k alt with no wep. Or chasing the bombers after they have dropped and are heading home.
The key here is strategy and tactics and to kill bombers before they drop.
As for the comment on escort fighters. Yes, that is what a good escort is supposed to do. Break up an enemy attack and tie them down so that they can't effectively engage bombers. Again the key here is developing tactics that enable the defenders to neutralize the escorts and allowing some of their forces to attack the bombers. Most common and simple way of doing this is diving your defending force into two parts. One part is tasked with engaging the escorts and a second force is tasked with hitting the bombers after the first force engages the escorts.
So the points, while valid, is more about tactics than whether the Hurricane has the speed and closure rate to handle the Ju 88s.
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No it is not similar.
Read more carefully. He was asking about restricting fuel to 25%, which is a loadout, which you can see in the logs.
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Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.
Anaxogoras before you tell me to read more carefully you might want to do that yourself. He was talking about a 25% fuel load out AND forcing them to run less than 100% throttle.
As I previously answered, in the the CM logs I can verify load out both bomb load and fuel load out. The logs do not record throttle settings (manifold or RPM). So the idea of forcing Ju 88 pilots to run at a reduce throttle in my opinion is unenforceable and relies completely on the honor system. The only way to verify that is by film which not a workable solution.
So no his request is not similiar to having the B25C not load out with the strafer ordinance package. It would only be similar if there was a rule against loading out with a strafer package and then another saying B25Cs can only run at 80% (or some other percentage) throttle.
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GD,
I think he meant force the Ju-88s to operate at reduced throttle BY restricting their fuel loads. You'd be able to track their fuel load, while at the same time the Ju-88s would be forced to reduce their power levels to have enough gas to reach their targets and return.
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Saxman that is not what 68Wooley wrote and there has been discussion in the past at actually setting throttle limits when designs have come up. He wrote:
Might be better to mandate 25% fuel and force them to run at less than 100% throttle.
The better response or follow up to this would have been to say I think what 68Wooley meant was that by taking a 25% fuel load it cause pilots to run a reduce throttle if they wanted to make it to target and also to get home (basically what you did). Instead of telling me to just "read more carefully." That comment does not clarify or offer additional possible context.
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Also to state this once again this is not a scenario and there are quite significant differences.
The November 2008 BoB scenario had a 3 hr and 15 minute frame length (195 minutes). It also did not specify that targets had to be hit by a certain time. It also did not specify which targets were to be hit in which frame and I read there rules right and remember the discussions it set objectives that had to be accomplished by the end of frame 4. Meaning the RAF did have hard and firm knowledge of which targets were to be hit in which frame like we do in FSO.
FSO has a 2 hour time length and targets must be planned to be struck by T+60 with a credible force.
Lower fuel (25%) and the resulting lower throttle rates will not work within this time frame in my opinion. The only way they can possibly work by limiting the the LW altitude to 10K or less and force them to fly the most direct line to target. Even then until I do testing it might not be possible to get to the target in time.
I will have targets up to 6 sectors (150 miles) from a LW launch base.
At full military power the Ju 88 (fully loaded) takes roughly 13.5 minutes to get to 10K (while covering a distance roughly of 33.75 miles while doing this). Then at full military power of about 253 mph it would take the Ju 88 an additional 27.68 minutes to fly 116.25 miles to a target 6 sectors away, so a total of 41.17 minutes roughly. So this would leave them with about an 8.8 minute window to start their runs at T+50 or a 18.8 minute window by T+60.
Now that is at full military power and the most direct line to a target 6 sectors away. This leaves them a time cushion that they can use to either build more alt or take a non direct method to target. If they go to a lower alt they spend less time climbing but they are also not as fast. So depends on what you think is the better trade off there.
Again remember that RAF knows exactly what targets must be hit, the time frame they must be hit, and the possible LW launch bases.
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Just to clarify, my intentions by suggesting forcing the JU88's to launch with 25% fuel was to create a situation where the bombers were unable to run flat out all the way in and out due to insufficient fuel. I thought that might be an interesting alternative to trying to enforce manifold / pitch settings which I know is a non-starter.
Where I said 'force them to run at less than 100%', I meant force them due to insufficient fuel rather than anything in the rules.
Sorry for the confusion.
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No problem Wooley and thank you for the clarification since over the years since I have been doing this there has been discussions among the designers about telling the Ju 88s they have to run at 75% throttle.
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Just to clarify, my intentions by suggesting forcing the JU88's to launch with 25% fuel was to create a situation where the bombers were unable to run flat out all the way in and out due to insufficient fuel. I thought that might be an interesting alternative to trying to enforce manifold / pitch settings which I know is a non-starter.
Where I said 'force them to run at less than 100%', I meant force them due to insufficient fuel rather than anything in the rules.
Precisely. That's what I read the first time.
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Gentlemen, forgive me here, but my logic on this subject would lead me to ask for LW this FSO. Then ask for the 88 all 3 frames, if the advantage is that big, why not fly and live, it just adds up the score.
Again, I'm sorry for looking at it that way, but with the given available plane set, the CM's do their best IMO...
<S>
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...but with the given available plane set, the CM's do their best IMO...
I absolutely agree and am very appreciative of their efforts. That said, it doesn't hurt to have a civilized debate beforehand on possible tweaks.
Rest assured, once Ghostdancer finalizes the rules I'll accept them and know he's made his best effort to make this as realistic / balanced as possible.
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Put me in the Hurri-1 please. :rock
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Objectives are going out now and I have added in some revisions and omissions.
- Ju88s must take 100% fuel
- Ju87s can not take the 1800 KG bomb package. They can take any other bomb package
- Manual bomb sight calibration is in use
- Alt cap of 27K (the LW and RAF did fight in the mid to high 20Ks but at this period did not fight in the 30Ks)
I tested the 25% fuel load and it it unworkable for FSO. It took me 5 minutes to get up to 5K alt. Then whey I throttled back and adjusted my RPM I was able to get to a range that barely would allow the Ju88s to strike a target 125 miles from their launch base but I didn't have any fuel for the a return trip and the Ju 88 flying the most direct route would get to their target at about T+49.
So I am going with mandating 100% fuel. This slow the Ju 88s down but also allows them more time to either take a non-direct route or gain more altitude.
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CC Ghost.
:aok