Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on January 25, 2001, 09:25:00 PM
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From page 44 of the 8th AF News June 2000
Lt.Gen Johnnes Steinhoff, Luftwaffe fighter pilot. 176 victories.
Interviewer: "Of all the Allied fighters you encountered, which was the most difficult to handle with a good pilot at the controls?"
Steinhoff: "The Lightning. It was fast, low profiled and a fantastic fighter, and a real danger when it was above you. It was only vunerable if you were behind it, a little below it and closing fast, or turning into it, but on attack it was a tremendous aircraft. One shot me down from long range in 1944. That would be the one, although the P-51 was deadly because of it's long range, and it could cover any base in Europe. This made things difficult, especially later when flying jets."
In a personal letter to Trevor Constable, Macky Steinhoff responds to a similar question:
"I would state, without reservation, that the toughest Allied fighter was the Lockheed Lightning. Many of my war time comrades have stated that they found the Lightning to be an easy victory. Perhaps this is true if you were able to attack without being detected. My experience has been that if the Lightning was attacking you, you were in serious trouble. The Lockheed was faster than our Messerschmitt of Focke Wulf. Never was I able to match this large fighter in a tight turn. When in trouble, a common tactic was to begin a tight climbing spiral. This was a sure method to dislodge the P-51 and the Thunderbolt. They could do nothing to counter this other than try quick shots at very poor angles. But, if you attemped to escape the Lightning by this method, you would be shot down in short order because the Lockheed could follow you while climbing at a greater angle and turning a much tighter spiral."
"In every encounter I had with the Lightning, I came away very thankful to be alive. When I recall that I was shot down by a Lockheed and had two of my ships damaged beyond repair on other occations, I am grateful to the Americans that these fighters were not deployed in greater
numbers."
Steinhoff has also written:
"....the Lightnings loomed up terrifyingly fast in front of me, and it was only for the space of seconds that I was able to get into firing position behind one on the outside of the formation. And, as if they had received prior warning, they swung around smartly as soon as I opened fire."
".... I tried to follow a Lightning's tight turn, but gravity pressed me down on my parachute with such force that I had trouble keeping my head in position to line up the sight on him... Then a shudder went through my aircraft as my leading edge flaps sprang out: I had exceeded the permissible gravity load."
".... If a Lightning turned into your attack, it was advisable to continue on
past. If you chose to try to follow the Lightning's turn, you would find the
American behind you within seconds. At this point, only poor gunnery would allow you to escape unharmed."
In his book, the First and the Last, Adolf Galland compared the P-38 to the Me 110. This is somewhat surprising when you consider that Galland never shot down a P-38 where the pilot saw him. In two instances, once he was sotted sneaking in, Galland had to fight like hell to escape the P-38.
Steinhoff commented on Galland's remarks:
"I cannot understand Galland's comments
on the Lightning, Especially when he was nearly killed by this fighter several times."
Lt.Col. John Lowell had an encounter with Galland while flying his P-38J-15-LO. The following is Lowell's account of the action,
courtesy of a friend.
(John Lowell's account of his fight with Galland P-38J vs Fw 190D-9)
"One of our last P38 missions was a flight to protect bombers
on a mission near Berlin. My squadron was flying top cover. We
were attacked from above, out of the sun by sixteen long nosed
FW 190s. I was alerted by a flight leader in our squadron. I saw
a flight of four Focke-Wulfs coming in from too high to effectively
fire on my flight so I quickly slowed the flight as we opened up
laterally for a defensive break and a head on attack that the
Germans never wanted when they were fighting P38s. The lead German
flight passed very close over me with throttles back trying to slow
down.
I looked up at the German plane. The pilot was looking down at
me as he eased ahead and close above me into sure death, unless he
could take violent evasive action. He split-Sed and I followed him.
He nearly got out of my sight because the P38 high-speed
compressibility problem kept me from staying with him in a vertical
dive. I stayed out of trouble by doing a vertical barrel roll to
pull several Gs and keep my speed under control. Finally he turned
to find me, and I cut across to close with him.
Then the fight started.
He was a fantastic, wild, talented pilot who pulled all the tricks
I had ever seen. But finally I got into a tight Lufbery with him
and used my clover-leaf surprise to get a few strikes. None of them
harmed the power unit. The long-nosed 190 had methyl injection that
was usable for ten-second spurts. Then a pilot had to quit using it
for a while because the twenty-six percent added boost to the engine
would burn it up if used too long. This pilot used his methyl
injection very advantageously to keep me from shooting him down.
When his methyl was gone, he dived to the deck and dropped into a
tar pit that was about 500 feet deep and wide enough to fly a fighter
in a tight turn. I got a few more strikes on him. A portion of his
vertical stabilizer and one wingtip flew off. Unfortunately I was
getting low on gas and had to break combat and head for the North Sea,
and England. After two more circles in the pit I pulled up and flew
away to the west. I looked back over my shoulder to see the FW-190
going the opposite way, waggling his wings as if to say, "I'll see
you tomorrow and we'll go at it again."
A few years ago the American Fighter Aces had their annual reunion
at Maxwell AFB near Montgomery, Alabama. The base commander invited
five of the top living German Aces. The first day I arrived in a
large hall where over one hundred Maxwell and AFA officers were
gathered. Ace Gabreski, the highest scoring living USAF ace, who is
a friend and a man that I admire to the hilt, was talking with the
German Aces, along with several other US Aces. One subject was the
German attitude and tactics relating to the P38. Gabby saw me come
to the opposite side of room, waved and hollered for me to come over.
He introduced me as the highest scoring P38 Aces in Europe.
When I shook hands with German General Adolf Galland, I said, "Adolf,
did you ever shoot down a P38?"
He said, "Yah, I shoot down eight."
Then I asked him if any of his pilots told him about a fight in a
long nosed FW190 in late 44 against a P38 that wound up in a huge
pit with water and two crashed P38s on the bottom. I described what
had happened and the strikes I got on the long nosed 190, then told
him that when I ran low on gas and had to leave, the German pilot had
waggled his wings as he flew away in the opposite direction. I was
using my hands and looking down as I talked and wasn't watching
Galland. When I looked up, he was pale white.
He said, "You son of a squeak! You dom neer keel me dat day!"
Holy Mackeral! All the pilots that heard our conversation bellowed
their surprise, including me. Adolf wouldn't let me out of his sight
for the rest of the day, asking me how I got the P38 to do what I had
explained was my clover leaf in a tight Lufbery "Fight to the death"
tactic. He wanted to know how I trained our pilots and had many
other questions about tactics."
Lt Col John H. Lowell 364th FG, 384th FS
More to follow at a later date.
My regards,
Widewing
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"8th AF News?"
never heard of this.
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Very good story. Thank you for posting it. I saw another post where a British pilot had used that same tactic against a Spit in a mock dog fight. Someone said in the post that it couldn't be done with the 38 on AH. I've never tried it so I don't know. It's sounding like they might need to examine the P-38 flight model again.
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I think I read about that galland and D9 story here in another thread. they said it was probably an A8 and galland wasnt in it. I have some P-38 stories from books. they are short stories and the book mostly contains P-51 aces because I liked the P-51 and never bought P-38 junk. I dont know how it got in there with the 51.
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
"8th AF News?"
never heard of this.
I don't know about it's availability but my neighbor used to have something along those lines...
it was a news letter intended to keep 8th vets in touch with each other from what I understood.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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Originally posted by Jigster:
I don't know about it's availability but my neighbor used to have something along those lines...
it was a news letter intended to keep 8th vets in touch with each other from what I understood.
I believe that it is the newsletter of the 8th Air Force Association. I recieved the clipping along with a pile of stuff that arrives here every week. I have boxes full of material sent to me. A package arrived two months ago containing dozens of different copies of the P-47 Alumni Association newsletters. Back in August, I was sent 32 original Curtiss-Wright photos taken at the Buffalo factory between 1941 and 1943. In just the past two years, nine new manuscripts were sent to me in order than I might write a review that can be blurbed on the back of the dust jacket. The best manuscript was Aces Wild: The Race for Mach 1. The book was released in the fall of 1999 and chronicles the career of Ace George
Welch. If you never heard of Welch, go to http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html)
and read this amazing man. Anyway, the book, authored by a North American Aviation test pilot, presents overwhelming evidence that Yeager WAS NOT the first man to exceed Mach 1. Mr. Welch and the XP-86 Sabre actually deserve that credit. Read the book, or at least read the story on the web site. One advantage to doing what I do, is publishers sending books for me to review on my web site. One of these is Fire in The Sky: The air War in The South Pacific. This is a must have for the WWII aviation reader.
I will continue to post historical material as my schedule allows. I have reduced my work load a bit over the past week or so, but I have several deadlines that are looming larger with each passing day. Therefore, I must redirect some of my efforts to completion of several projects.
In that light, I will be forced to limit my posts here somewhat. However, I enjoy this forum and the people who post here. I have downloaded the AH software and have been trying to become familiar with it. My 333 Mhz
machine is a bit slow, and my 8 meg ATI video card is being pushed pretty hard. A new machine is in the budget and I think that it will be necessary to really get everything out of the sim. I won't venture online until I'm comfortable with the aircraft models.
My regards,
Widewing
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Great news Widewing hope to see u soon in the MA in a P38 offcourse (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But don't expect it outturns german fighter
because they are much more superior (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Yeah, LW fighters are superior.
Especially in AH.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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But luftwaffe pilots got the best humor off all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Forgot to say that
hi Santa (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Heya bug, you allied thingy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If I was dictator, all allies wouĉd be named Bug.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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Originally posted by Widewing:
If you never heard of Welch, go to http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html)
and read this amazing man.
Widewing
From the story it is evident that he was the first. But not in "level flight." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Very good stuff. Please continue posting things like this as you can. I really enjoyed reading it. It is a shame that he hasn't been properly acknowledged for his accomplishments.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-26-2001).]
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Thanks for that Widewing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just an FYI, if you would like any help getting AH set up, or even with choosing parts for a new system that will play the game a little better, please give me a shout. You can email me at sconrad@hfx.eastlink.ca if you have any questions, and I would be glad to lend a hand.
Of course, the same goes for the rest of you reading this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Originally posted by Jimdandy:
It is a shame that he hasn't been properly acknowledged for his accomplishments.
B]
His exploits at pearl harbor made him a national hero. Even today, you ask any Air Force pilot who Lieutenant George Welch was, and you can hear the story of his 4 kills. That day may live in infamy, but the actions of George Welsh, were an inspiration to the world! This photograph shows President Roosevelt proudly shaking his hand! Sorry about the fold, but the photograph is A3.
(http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~badboy/PDF/welch3.jpg)
A curious coincidence is the similarity between his fate, and that of Bong.
Leon "Badboy" Smith
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This prolly wont go too well with some here, but I read a story of an Me262 pilot who experienced the same instrument anomyly as Welch did in the XP-86 in a very steep dive sometime in early 1945. Maybe he did it too??
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Just a note but even the X-1 had problems with it's Mach meter.
After Ridely had gone back over some data with Frost from Bell they found that during the transition period there was an error on the meter...which they later fixed.
When Yeager achieved Mach 1 by the meter for the first time, he had gone all the way up to Mach 1.06 when it was refigured.
It's also believed that Slick Goodlin, the original Bell team pilot, might of made it through the transition as well due to the anomaly. He only made it to Mach .94 offically, I believe. The Navy's sound barrier project is almost totally obscured from history as well, even though they exceded, and past the speed record of the X-1, only to be passed by Yeager once more.
And about Welch, well he's the opposite of Yeager. Ask just about anyone who was the first man to break the sound barrier -- they know. Ask them who was the first evadee from France to make it back to his unit during WWII (and to later go on to be an ace in a day, etc etc) you get blank stares (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Also the first US pilot to fly a MiG, make it through 100,000ft, first perfect TAC deployment, etc etc. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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I think Steinhoff was just trying to save face.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
This prolly wont go too well with some here, but I read a story of an Me262 pilot who experienced the same instrument anomyly as Welch did in the XP-86 in a very steep dive sometime in early 1945. Maybe he did it too??
No, he didn't get anywhere near Mach 1. Understand that the Me 262 could not exceed Mach .85 and still retain its wings or tail.
Even the Me 163 Komet was not capable of speeds any higher than this. Both aircraft suffered from rudder flutter and bending-torsion wing flutter can be added to the 262's list of reasons why you don't want to push it into a terminal velocity dive. Both could, and would eventually lead to airframe failure. Even though both the 163 and 262 appear to employ swept wings, these were not designed, nor were efficient at delaying compressibility. Messerschmitt used wing sweep to correct the Cg. I don't believe that
either employed laminar flow airfoils either.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by funked:
I think Steinhoff was just trying to save face.
Naw, he had already lost his face in a burning Me 262.
My regards,
Widewing
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I was aware of that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/mach1/mach1.htm (http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/mach1/mach1.htm)
Never say never
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Originally posted by chisel:
http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/mach1/mach1.htm (http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/mach1/mach1.htm)
Never say never
That page is so full of holes toward the end it's not even funny.
The entire X-1 project was taken over by the military because of Goodlin. He was averaging over 100,000$ per flight in hazard pay from Bell under military supervision, and was trying to renegotiate with Bell and the Military for even more money before exceding the .94 Mach point in powered flight. The Military grew impatient, and handed the project over to Boyd, who chose Yeager, Ridely, and Hoover to continue the project. All were on basic military pay at that.
What I find extrememly interesting is there were no witnesses to sonic booms on any of the flights before Yeager's ... even 30 miles away at 55,000ft everyone at Mojave heard the boom (even if they had no clue what it was at the time) from Yeager's flight, yet there are no instances of this during Welch's or the Me-262 pilot's accounts of supersonic flight.
I believe the Mutke's flight in the 262 was simple entering buffet from the intial forming of shockwave, followed by loss of control, only to reach denser air again where the controls unlocked, as would be expected in a dive.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
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What I find extrememly interesting is there were no witnesses to sonic booms on any of the flights before Yeager's ... even 30 miles away at 55,000ft everyone at Mojave heard the boom (even if they had no clue what it was at the time) from Yeager's flight, yet there are no instances of this during Welch's or the Me-262 pilot's accounts of supersonic flight.
For the record, there were many witnesses to the sonic booms laid down by Welch, hundreds in fact. These included an Army Major General, who informed Stuart Symington of Welch's forays beyond Mach 1. Efforts were made to attribute these booms to V-2 testing at White Sands, mining in the surrounding mountains and even none-existant thunderstorms. 45 years later, Walt Williams of NACA, (who timed Yeager's run) admitted that they had heard several double booms in the weeks before Yeager set his record. More importantly, Williams recalled that a far more powerful boom than Yeager's was heard and felt just minutes before The XS-1 was released from its mothership on the 14th of October. He associated these booms with the XP-86, which just happened to be flying when the booms were heard. He cites this as a primary reason for NACA deciding to instrument the XP-86 less than a month later. On November 13, the XP-86 was officially recorded during two dives at Mach 1.02 and 1.04.
My conversations with Flight Engineers at NASA's Dryden Research Center confirmed that Welch's in-house test report (written for the North American XP-86 Engineering team), dated 1 October 1947, is the first recorded instance of a pilot witnessing 'Mach jump'. According to Al Bowers (at Dryden), is "irrefutable proof that Welch took the XP-86 beyond Mach One".
My regards,
Widewing
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Oh..
A boom heard in 1945 in Germany lead to large scale concern and a government investigation. Which led to the acknoledgment of the 262 going supersonic in a dive....
think about it.
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I'm just another air force conspiriter trying to see to that the only reason Yeager was given credit was to give the newly formed Air force branch a reason to exiest. That's also why the Navy's attempts are all but gone from the record books.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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<punt> for Naudet
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Widewing, BadBoy, anyone... where can I get a description of the clover lead manouver? How to do it, etc?
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I try the cloverleaf turn, but end up doing snap rolls. What am I doing wrong?
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Would love to help but I have only a vague idea what a clover leaf is. And I'm probably wrong. I've asked before but cannot remember ever receiving an explicit or definate answer from anyone.
-Westy
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We've been through this Galland and Lowell thing before. All evidence points to it not being Galland in the cockpit, and it was certainly not a 190D-9.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001196.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001196.html)
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Steinhoff has also written:
"....the Lightnings loomed up terrifyingly fast in front of me...."
".... I tried to follow a Lightning's tight turn, but...."
".... If a Lightning turned into your attack, it was advisable to continue on
past...."
Keep in mind that those specific comments are in reference to fighting the P-38 in the Me 262, and not with a prop fighter. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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While you guys are discussing former flying vets, you might like to pop in here and say hi to them your self:
http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/ (http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/)
And if StSanta's reading this, go here Santa, ya wannabee :-)
http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/LW-Bernard.htm (http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/LW-Bernard.htm)
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
We've been through this Galland and Lowell thing before. All evidence points to it not being Galland in the cockpit, and it was certainly not a 190D-9.
Except that Lowell and Galland agreed that they were the participants.....
Based upon that evidence, the case is a slam-dunk. How do can argue with eyewitness testimony? Granted, deliveries of the 190D did not begin until August of '44. So what?
Don't you think that Galland could have one at his disposal with little more than a telephone call? It seems to me that the 190D would have been extensively evaluated in combat PRIOR to delivery to the various fighter units. Is it implausible that Galland would want to evaluate the aircraft before it was issued?
It seems to me that those who are unhappy with the story will try to rationalize that it could not be, because it is disturbing to their preconceived vision of reality. It's the old Luftwaffe apologist mafia mindset at work. Just like the Robert E. Lee cult, the Luftwaffe cult cannot admit that they were defeated by superior equipment, tactics and training. Using the exact reasoning of the Confederate Lost Cause die hards, "we were overwhelmed by numbers" rings out as their unending mantra.
One indisputable fact should be remembered when we hear the endless whine that the P-38 was no match for the obsolecent Bf 109 and marginal Fw 190A; after seperating operational losses from the equation, the P-38 holds nearly a 4 to 1 positive kill ratio over the Luftwaffe. That gentlemen, is the final arbiter in this debate. Flying hundreds of miles from home, low on fuel and usually out-numbered, the P-38 gave a hell of a lot better than it received to the mighty Luftwaffe. No amount of pissing and crying can change the cold, hard reality of these facts. Which, by the way were confirmed not only by gun camera film, by eyewitnesses, but by several years of postwar research by the AAF.
Another thing that is always cast aside by the Luftwaffe mafia is the P-38's drubbing of the Japanese. "Doesn't count" say's the mafia, "the Japanese were much easier foes than the illustrious Luftwaffe."
Really? Then explain this: Pilots who fought against the Japanese with little or no success, and later transferred to the ETO (George Preddy and John Landers being two examples), generally performed very well. However, successful pilots transferring from the ETO to the SWPA, CBI and Central Pacific generally performed poorly against the Japanese. Why does this appear to be the case? Let's hear your arguments.
My regards,
Widewing
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It seems to me that those who are unhappy with the story will try to rationalize that it could not be, because it is disturbing to their preconceived vision of reality. It's the old Luftwaffe apologist mafia mindset at work. Just like the Robert E. Lee cult, the Luftwaffe cult cannot admit that they were defeated by superior equipment, tactics and training. Using the exact reasoning of the Confederate Lost Cause die hards, "we were overwhelmed by numbers" rings out as their unending mantra.
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/lv.jpg)
Pretty good for being outnumbered 5-20:1 on the Western front eh?
Face it, the only reason the Allies did so well in the air was because they had lots of numbers and lots of resouces which they could fall back on, eg pilots, fuel, etc.
According to "Focke-Wulf Fw 190 combat" by Alfred Price the Luftwaffe had 84 190s operational on the Western front on 31 May 1944 and 187 on 17 May 1943. The Allies operated 4-10x that many and sent raids with 1000 bombers and 1200 escorts by 1944, and yet Luftwaffe still destroyed an amazing amount of aircraft, IN INFERIOR AIRCRAFT!
One indisputable fact should be remembered when we hear the endless whine that the P-38 was no match for the obsolecent Bf 109 and marginal Fw 190A; after seperating operational losses from the equation, the P-38 holds nearly a 4 to 1 positive kill ratio over the Luftwaffe. That gentlemen, is the final arbiter in this debate. Flying hundreds of miles from home, low on fuel and usually out-numbered, the P-38 gave a hell of a lot better than it received to the mighty Luftwaffe. No amount of pissing and crying can change the cold, hard reality of these facts. Which, by the way were confirmed not only by gun camera film, by eyewitnesses, but by several years of postwar research by the AAF.
I assume that k/d was in 1943? Well look at the chart my friend... LW owned 1943. Also when looking at these numbers you must remember that the LW were ordered to engage bombers and ignore the fighter escort, so those P38 kills and basically hollow victories.
Another thing that is always cast aside by the Luftwaffe mafia is the P-38's drubbing of the Japanese. "Doesn't count" say's the mafia, "the Japanese were much easier foes than the illustrious Luftwaffe."
Really? Then explain this: Pilots who fought against the Japanese with little or no success, and later transferred to the ETO (George Preddy and John Landers being two examples), generally performed very well. However, successful pilots transferring from the ETO to the SWPA, CBI and Central Pacific generally performed poorly against the Japanese. Why does this appear to be the case? Let's hear your arguments.
Heh, preddy was only in combat in the pacific for 2 months and got 2 assists iirc, August to early October 1942 in which he was most likely flying F4Fs. As for Landers, he was an ace in the Pac, thats not successfull enough for you?
Hehe I really love that story of Hartmann taking on 8 P51s for 20 minutes with them not being able to get a shot at him--then he finally got position on one and was out of ammo and fuel, so he was forced to bail.
Widewing, you are so American-biased, and your webpage makes it much more obvious.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-04-2001).]
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Look at the Battle of Britain, it is only because the Luftwaffe was so heavily outnumbered that they lost.
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No, they lost BoB because of bad leadership higher up.
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Err,
In the battle of Britain the majority (large majority) of British planes were Hurricanes. And I believe the Brits were the ones out numbered. Also the Brits didn't have combat trained pilots. The Germans had every possible advantage on there side except range and the fact that they were fighting over NME territory. And the Germans still could not win.
Remember this was before operation Barbarosa (the invasion of Russia) so the Germans had every resource devoted to squashing the RAF. Tactics or no tactics, the Luftwaffe had an enormous opportunity to Vulch Britian and couldn't get the job done.
Also Nath,
How many of the German victories in your chart were unescorted bombers? And how many are actual kills versus over claiming? Remember in 1940 the British probably didn't have 1,500 airplanes to shoot down. They were building them and flying them straight into combat.
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 03-04-2001).]
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How many of the German victories in your chart were unescorted bombers? And how many are actual kills versus over claiming? Remember in 1940 the British probably didn't have 1,500 airplanes to shoot down. They were building them and flying them straight into combat.
Note that that table doesn't include the German night fighter kills, which is around 5,000.
4,234 B17s were lost...
As for your last comment, 1939-40 includes not just British, yet French, Polish, Belgian...
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-04-2001).]
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Here is the caption under this table.,
"Comment:
The most commonly quoted source on this matter is Ernst Obermaier's Die Ritterkreuztriiger der Luftwaffe, Band 1 Jagdflieger 1939-1945. According to Obermaier, the German fighter pilots claimed a total of 70,000 aerial victories during World War 11- 25,000 against the "West" and 45,000 on the Eastern Front. At the same time, the German Flak (AAA
batteries) reported the shooting down of more than 20,000 enemy aircraft.
According to the same source, 16,400 German day fighter aircraft were lost (total
loss, i.e. aircraft with more than 60% damage) as the result of hostile action during the war years. 8,500 German day fighter pilots were killed, 2, 700 went missing or were taken prisoners and 9, lOO were injured.
Different total loss figures for the RAF and USAAF are published frequently. Less
known are the loss statistics for the Soviet Air Force. The so far most reliable figures are given in the book Red Stars, recently published in Finland. According to this, the combat losses of the Soviet Air Force in the Second World War amounted to 46, lOO aircraft. Over 18,400 Soviet officer pilots were killed in action and another 20,600 went missing in
action or were taken prisoners.
Previously, the German author HeinzAF Schmidt (in Sowjetische Flugzeuge) put the
total number of individual combat missions undertaken by the Soviet Air Force between
June 22, 1941 and YE Day 1945 at 3,223,000, thus giving the total loss rate 1.4% for the
whole war, compared with the loss figures given in Red Stars. (As a comparison, the total loss rate for the RAP Bomber Command between July 1940 and YE Day 1945, was 2.9% )
Not included in the table above are the results of the German night fighters, who
claimed to have downed a total of 5,729 Western Allied aircraft, the true figure probably being around 5,000.
This leads to the conclusion that on average, eight Western Allied aircraft were shot down for every ten aerial victories claimed by German day fighter pilots, while the ratio on the Eastern Front was probably a bit smaller, due to the fact that the major part of the air combats in this war theater took part over Soviet held territory."
From the book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft In Profile" isbn 0-7643-0291-4
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Heh, preddy was only in combat in the pacific for 2 months and got 2 assists iirc, August to early October 1942 in which he was most likely flying F4Fs. As for Landers, he was an ace in the Pac, thats not successfull enough for you?
To be flying F4Fs, Preddy would have had to be in the Navy or Marine Corps. Since he was in the AAF, we can discount Wildcats. Preddy was assigned to the 49th Fighter Group. You remember the 49th, they shot down 668 enemy aircraft, the third highest total for any Fighter Group in any theater. Preddy scored exactly zero while he was with the the 9th Fighter Squadron. He was seriously injured when he dove into John Sauber's P-40, killing Sauber. Preddy was with the squadron for 5 months prior to his accident.
John Landers scored 6 kills (two of which are disputed to this day) while with the 49th FG. Coming to the ETO he claimed another 8.5 and 20 claimed destroyed on the ground, which do not count towards his total.
Widewing, you are so American-biased, and your webpage makes it much more obvious.
If that means that I don't have any material about the Nazi Luftwaffe, you're right. I have not, nor ever intend to include articles that glorify Luftwaffe. Why? Because there is more than enough on the web already. As I said, there is an entire cult dedicated to apologizing for the failure of the Luftwaffe and the Nazi leadership to defend Germany from the Allied horde. Indeed, the apologia runs deep, with countless books in print, and more being added every year. I see no useful reason to jump on that bandwagon.
What we write about are the aircraft and pilots. We have published historical pieces on the Soviets and Italians, both of which get scant coverage, especially the Italians.
More importantly, we talk to the men who flew the aircraft. In this respect, we work hard to debunk much of the misinformation that already crowds the internet. We don't rely on some author's research, we do our own, and make every effort to talk to the men who were there.
Now, as to your whining about being out-numbered. You ignore the fact that there were just two fighter groups which flew all of the missions into Germany between October 1943 and the end of the year. These units flew the P-38H and J, and every mission found them, frequently with less than 40 total fighters, engaging as many as 300 German fighters. It was not the Luftwaffe who was out-numbered in those days. Moreover, the Luftwaffe did not ignore the P-38s. On the contrary, they did everything possible to disrupt their formations. Arthur Heiden has said that he cannot recall a single mission in where his squadron was not bounced by German fighters. That is until Doolittle authorized Kepner to go after the Luftwaffe, rather than defend the bombers. It was at this point that the Luftwaffe's fate was sealed.
The whole argument about the Luftwaffe being overwhelmed by sheer numbers is a red herring. The Luftwaffe was overwhelmed by technology, traing and tactics. This technology created fighter aircraft with the range to cover every airfield in Germany, from bases 500 miles away. This technology produced a whole host of fighter aircraft that were equal or superior to what Germany was able to field. This technology produced the bombers that pounded German industry and cities into ruin.
Training provided the Allies with pilots who entered combat with the skills required to defeat their German counterparts. The tactics employed pinned the Luftwaffe inside Germany, and then pinned them to their airfields.
Where was German technology? Wasted on weapons that were useless within the scope of the war. Why is it that Germany could not train enough pilots? Why is it that the obsolecent Bf 109 continued in production long after it had reached the limits of development? We could go on ad nauseum.
As I said before, the three Ts were the key to defeating Germany in the west. Technology, Training and Tactics.
My regards,
Widewing
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Not to mention that LW had to deal with morphine-filled Goering (who was a very ineffective leader) and then Hitler's squeaking for a blitz bomber that killed the 262 from coming into service to make a difference.
I shudder to think what wouldve happened if Rommel had been in command of the Wehrmacht (spelled right?), Galland of the LW and Doenitz given full command of the kriegsmarine from the start.
Widewing.. you have any description of the Clover Leaf manouver in the P-38? Im dying to try it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Preddy flew a P-40E with the 7th FS/49th FG. The 49th reached their station at Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia on 18 Mar 42. There they were tasked with intercepting Japanese bombers otw to Darwin.
Which was not an easy task in -40E's. "I can recall sitting at 27,000 feet indicating 90 miles per hour and walking the stick all over the cockpit to keep from stalling out while an entire Japanese formation blithely sailed over Darwin three to five thousand feet above us.", from Lt. Lawrence Smith.
Preddy's collision occured on 12 July 42. Also, from 18 Mar 42 to mid-May 42, the 49th only scored 38 kills (losing 7 planes and three pilots). During this time he claimed two planes damaged (a Zeke and a Betty), although he lost a kill during his first engagement when he forgot to arm his guns.
BTW, Preddy's flight leader was Joe Kruzel. Kruzel later became the XO of the 361st FG. In the PTO he scored 3 kills and got another 3.5 while in the ETO.
- This info from "George Preddy, Top Mustang Ace" by Joe Noah and Sam Sox.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Hitler's squeaking about a Blitz bomber? That delayed the program for about a month maybe less. Bigger problems were lack of stability at high speeds, fragile nose gear, and engines that didn't like having their throttle changed. Pull a high-speed banking turn and the engines conked out. The 262 was a bigger threat to itself than Hitler ever was. One month after he declaired he wanted the 262 as a Blitz bomber he said 262 fighter production could continue. Somewhere between three weeks and a month after that, he said the idea of a 262 as a Blitz bomber was futile. That's when the Ar234 production effort was scrambled into high gear.
This didn't stop people from trying out new variants of a bomb-carrying 262. All in all what stopped the 262 was the USAAF, and they stopped it on the ground. US fighter-bombers blew up everything that moved, since 262's were moved by train they lost more on the ground than in the air. To quote a book on the 262:
By the end of the first week of April the Luftwaffe had accepted more than 1,200 Me 262s but fewer than 200 were assigned to operational units as follows:
Stab/JG 7
5 Fighters
1. Gruppe JG 7
41 Fighters
III. Gruppe JG 7
30 Fighters
JV-44
50 Fighters
1. Gruppe KG(J) 54
37 Fighters
1. Gruppe KG 51
6 Fighter Bombers
II. Gruppe KG 51
15 Fighter-bombers
10. Gruppe NJG 11
9 Fighters
NAGr 6
7 Recon
The Figure of 200 operational Me 262s would never be exceeded by the Luftwaffe. Of the thousand others that had been built, over half had been destroyed by the Allies, many without having flown an operational sortie. Another hundred served with units either training to enter combat, or withdrawn from combat for rest. The remainder sat unused on railway sidings or airfields.
The 55 sorties conducted by Me 262s on 10 April 1945 would mark the greatest number of missions flown in a single day. 10 American bombers were downed at the cost of 27 jets.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 03-05-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dune:
Preddy flew a P-40E with the 7th FS/49th FG. (snipped) - This info from "George Preddy, Top Mustang Ace" by Joe Noah and Sam Sox.
It appears that Noah and Sox missed this one. Preddy's name does not appear on the 7th's roster. It does, however, appear on the roster of the 9th FS.
Sources:
The Official History of the 49th FG.
Protect and Avenge: The 49th FG in WWII by Ferguson and Pascalis.
Personal conversations with Bill Pascalis.
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Widewing, I wish I'd have been able to say what you said above. I usually botch it and get too personal with my reply"
"there is an entire cult dedicated to apologizing for the failure of the Luftwaffe and the Nazi leadership to defend Germany from the Allied horde."
You hit the nail on the head squarely.
-Westy
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In the battle of Britain the majority (large majority) of British planes were Hurricanes. And I believe the Brits were the ones out numbered. Also the Brits didn't have combat trained pilots. The Germans had every possible advantage on there side except range and the fact that they were fighting over NME territory. And the Germans still could not win.
roadkille. Ignorance or what but F4UDOA fails to mention that RAF had working radar chain which acted as force multiplier ie. direction planes where they were needed.
If that is not an advantage I dont know what is.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A[/b, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Jochen, you will find very few combats during the BoB where the RAF weren't outnumber locally.
The usual RAF tactic was to send one or 2 squadrons against a raid, which would be escorted by large numbers of German fighters.
The fact is during the BoB the Luftwaffe came up against an enemy that was well equipped and led for the first time. Despite their numerical superiority, and the fact that most of their fighters were superior to most of the British fighters, they still lost.
Don't use the range argument either. During the early stages, when the fighting was mainly over the channel, the Luftwaffe suffered an even worse ratio than for the rest of the battle.
The fact is some Luftwaffe pilots were good at running up large scores, but the Luftwaffe as a whole rarely acomplished the goals that were set out for it. In the desert they were supposed to support Rommels army. Of all Marseille's 150+ kils only 4 were bombers. That shows a man who wasn't doing his job properly. During the BoB the RAF pilots were ordered to concentrate on the bombers and to a large extent they did. They made it too expensive for the Germans to keep bombing Britain.
Dieppe is often mentioned as a stunning victory for the Luftwaffe. They achieved about a 2 -1 kill ratio over the RAF. However, despite their superior aircraft (190s against Spit V) they failed again in their primary misson of attacking the ground and naval forces. Only 1 British ship was damaged by a near miss.
When the Luftwaffe was tasked with neutralising Malta they failed. When they had to combat the US bombers in their raids over Germany they failed again. All the factors you state caused them to lose the BoB were in their favour. They were fighting over friendly territory, with the benifits of radar coverage, and no range problem. They still lost.
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<S> Widewing,
I am repeating what Westy said, but you hit it on the head like I never could.
Jochen,
Before you call my statement roadkill, please clarify. Was the Luftwaffe out numbered during the BoB or was it the British radar that acted as a force multiplier.
Do you know how few A/C the Brits actually had after Dunkirk? Do you doubt that they were Hurricanes doing most of the damage? The Germans had the experiance of fighting in Poland, Spain, France and the British had none. What am I saying that is roadkill? Why do you feel necessary to apolgize for the Luftwaffe?
I get the feeling that the new plane set is setting the stage for a historic arena. Now that the Luftwables have the dora, F8 and TA-152 there is nothing else to whine about. Let's do it!!
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Actually, that was my mistype, Preddy did fly with the 9th FS, not the 7th.
BTW, I doubt Noah and Sox missed too many in their book.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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During most of '43 a typical FG would consist of 36 planes. (12 in each squadron)..this was later to 48.
They would normally send out 3 FG's on a ramrod. One for penetration escort, another to relieve those and yet another for reception escort.
The escorts would be assigned positions around the bombers, split up into squadrons, often outside visual range of eachother.
Later on, when the bombers were sent in in "streams", escorts would again have fixed positions on that stream, or covering a specific area on the route, again split into squadrons.
The LW, on the other hand, usually concentrated all their fighters on one section of the stream, usually leaving the escorts outnumbered 4:1, often way more than that...even in late '44 the LW would locally outnumber the allieds.
Add to that, that it wasnt until early '44 that the allieds were allowed to chase the LW when they broke off and I dont really see it as being very impressive.
It only took the 56th FG 6 months to achieve a 2:1 win/loss ratio and this was pilots without any previous combat experience, in a unproven plane, fighting over enemy territory against a way more experienced enemy, fighting over home ground.
While I happily agree that attrition (on all fronts) was a major factor, it still doesnt explain the success of FG's like the 4th, 56th,and 78th, who baned the way for the US bomberforces in early/mid '43...and numbers was certainly in the LW favour.
Daff
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You remember the 49th, they shot down 668 enemy aircraft, the third highest total for any Fighter Group in any theater.
Wow and JG 52 and 54 were resposible for over 20,000 kills.
To be flying F4Fs, Preddy would have had to be in the Navy or Marine Corps. Since he was in the AAF, we can discount Wildcats. Preddy was assigned to the 49th Fighter Group. You remember the 49th, they shot down 668 enemy aircraft, the third highest total for any Fighter Group in any theater. Preddy scored exactly zero while he was with the the 9th Fighter Squadron. He was seriously injured when he dove into John Sauber's P-40, killing Sauber. Preddy was with the squadron for 5 months prior to his accident.
John Landers scored 6 kills (two of which are disputed to this day) while with the 49th FG. Coming to the ETO he claimed another 8.5 and 20 claimed destroyed on the ground, which do not count towards his total.
thanks for the info, you just proved first statement about them inconclusive.
Now, as to your whining about being out-numbered. You ignore the fact that there were just two fighter groups which flew all of the missions into Germany between October 1943 and the end of the year. These units flew the P-38H and J, and every mission found them, frequently with less than 40 total fighters, engaging as many as 300 German fighters. It was not the Luftwaffe who was out-numbered in those days. Moreover, the Luftwaffe did not ignore the P-38s. On the contrary, they did everything possible to disrupt their formations. Arthur Heiden has said that he cannot recall a single mission in where his squadron was not bounced by German fighters. That is until Doolittle authorized Kepner to go after the Luftwaffe, rather than defend the bombers. It was at this point that the Luftwaffe's fate was sealed.
Forgetting about the RAF now are we? tsk tsk...
The P38s during this time took very high losses, in November alone they lost 17 aircraft and shot down 23 German aircraft. The Germans at this time had no idea that the Allies had an escort that could stay with the bombers that deep into Germany and were caught unaware on several occasions.
NEVER were there 300 German aircraft in the air at one time.
The whole argument about the Luftwaffe being overwhelmed by sheer numbers is a red herring. The Luftwaffe was overwhelmed by technology, traing and tactics. This technology created fighter aircraft with the range to cover every airfield in Germany, from bases 500 miles away. This technology produced a whole host of fighter aircraft that were equal or superior to what Germany was able to field. This technology produced the bombers that pounded German industry and cities into ruin.
If you can't admit that it was numbers that overwhelmed the LW then you're in a deep state of denial. It is common knowledge that this was a fact. Look at the numbers I posted above, the LW only had 84 190's operational on the Western front in May 1944, and the Allies had 5x that many. It was numbers that eventually wore the LW down.
Sure they "pounded" German cities and industry into ruin--yet the strategic bombing campaign never accomplished what it was set out to accomplish. Germany produced 20,295 190s 109s and 301 Me 262s in 1944 alone--at the height of the bombing offensive, that is quite an amazing feat for a industrial developed country.
In the end it was lack of fuel, green pilots and overwhelming numbers that defeated the LW. I'm speaking the truth here, not apologizing for anyone or thing.
Where was German technology? Wasted on weapons that were useless within the scope of the war. Why is it that Germany could not train enough pilots? Why is it that the obsolecent Bf 109 continued in production long after it had reached the limits of development? We could go on ad nauseum.
The later model Bf 109s (G-10, K-4 ectera) were (in my opinion) superior to anything the Allies had, the 190D series was also superior to most in different aspects. Also remember that German technology was far ahead of the Allies. Had it not been for the Germans development with revolutionary designs and technology of the Me 262 and other designs and weapons the Western world would have been behind 5-10 years in aviation tech, not to mention space travel.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]
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posted by Nath-BDP: "Sure they "pounded" German cities and industry into ruin--yet the strategic bombing campaign never accomplished what it was set out to accomplish. Germany produced 20,295 190s 109s and 301 Me 262s in 1944 alone--at the height of the bombing offensive, that is quite an amazing feat for a industrial developed country."
How many of those planes, tanks, and other war material was produced by the slave laborers in Nazi captivity?
Sometimes, people forget at what price Germany gained this technological "edge".
Total disregard for human life other than their own, willing to use other human beings as guinea pigs to "further" their sciences and help insure the survival of their pilots and soldiers.......forcing POW's or simple civilians to do their bidding in an effort to prolong the war......
And lest anyone forget, Germany started the whole darned thing we call the Second World War, so no sympathy is warranted over them being "outnumbered", even if it were true. Hitler, and, yes, the German people, got what they had coming when they embarked on their road of aggression.
Yup, plenty to be proud of there if you are a fan of the German war machine.
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Ah, lest not forget about the segregation on U.S. soil.
Let us also not forget about Unit 741 that were experimenting biological weapons and different epidemics on Chinese civilians in Machuria and were resposible for horrenous treatment of Chinese civilians in containment, they were considered 'logs' by the Japanese. At the end of the war when the U.S. found out about this, we let their scientists go without a trial for war crimes--just because they were willing to give us all their information on the tests they did. WTG America...
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]
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Nath, you really sound like you're quoting numbers out of books and not really having a debate.
At least put some of the numbers in context and stay within the discussion a little. The P-38 and the USAAF groups's all flew on the western front. Eastern front numbers meant nothing at this point.
And every time you mention raw numbers you remind me of how pathetically stupid and stark raving mad the Germans nation was to get into a mult-front war in the first place. Western front, Eastern front, Afrika, all the occupied teritory like Norway, Greece and all the material and men that went onto thier Uboats and still born Navy.
Who do we blame for entering a ten on one "dogfight" here? The idiot who is the "one"
Same thing with Germany and Japan.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-05-2001).]
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Ah, heres westy, popping into a thread to make some stupid inane comment to make himself feel better.
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Never said there were not segregation problems in the US, but America did not stoop to genocide, unlike Hitler and the Fatherland. Some of the things that happened here in the States make ya sick when ya see them, the Americans of Japanese descent losing their businesses and homes, taken to camps......was a toejamty way to treat people who had come here to make their way in life, and loved the US.
As for Westy popping in, he, like Widewing, hit the nail on the head again. For all their supposed superiority, being the "master race" and all, holding these amazing leads in the fields of technology, they did not have the foresight to realize that sooner or later, they were gonna pick on the wrong country, or that the world was not going to stand by and allow them to run over Europe just because Hitler said it was their right and their destiny. If they were so superior, they would have recognized the guy for what he was and what he represented, and never let him come to power.
The technological leads you refer to can be explained also. Hitler was preparing Germany for war years before the Americans and British. When the war began, Germany truly did have the most advanced fighters in the world. At that time, what did America have? The P-26 Peashooter, the P-36? Even in 1941, the American front line fighters were the P-40 and F4F; some say both were almost obsolete by the time the US got dragged into the war.
From Dec 1941, to May 1945, the US went from the asthmatic P-40's to the P-38, P-47, P-51, F4U, F6F, etc, each more than capable of meeting the Axis on equal terms. And they did so while not only producing war material for themselves, they produced a significant percentage of the total equipment used by the Allies during the course of the conflict.
And the workers making the equipment got paid wages for their jobs, not marched back to the camps and forgotten til they were needed the next day.
Blaming the loss of the war on being "outnumbered"........just another admission of stupidity on the part of those who admire the brutalities of the Nazi regime.
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Westy's first post, the one I responded to, read just:
Nath, you really sound like you're quoting numbers out of books and not really having a debate.
--The he (obviously) edited it.
The only thing I'm proving is that numbers is what beat the LW, I'm not defending hitler, the nazis, nor am I saying anything about the ost front.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]
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No kidding I edited and did emmediatley after submitting the post as I wasn't done.
And from your retort I see I hit on target.
-Westy
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I wrote a 2,000 word reply that disassembled your entire argument. Then, when I hit submit, that useless sack of toejam called Internet Explorer crashed, losing the entire post. Since I have already wasted two hours,
I can't see investing any further time disputing your disinformed and glib reply.
Furthermore, after reviewing your further posts that followed, I realize that you have no interest in seriously discussing any issue that is at odds with your view. In other words, you are one of those people that refuses to be confused by the facts after you've made up your mind. You don't debate, you generate sound-bites. Essentially, trolling is your specialty. The fact that you rationalize the murdering Nazi horde by pointing to U.S. race relations, leads me to conclude that you must a 'true believer'. What's next? There wasn't a holocaust either?
Well, in light of this and the fact that I have wasted enough valuable time, and the pressing need to get some real work done, I will not bother offering you the education you so badly need.
My regards,
Widewing
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I understand that you realize you're wrong.
Bye.
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[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]
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Nath,
Kindly forgive me for my last, remarkably arrogant post. I was taking out my fury for losing two hours of work on you, and I was completely unfair and unjustified in my comments. I apologize.
When I calm down a bit, and have some spare time (perhaps tomorrow), I will reconstruct what was lost.
In the meanwhile, please except my apology and try to understand that cranky old bastards like myself sometimes behave in a most undignified manner.
My regards,
Widewing
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Before you call my statement roadkill, please clarify. Was the Luftwaffe out numbered during the BoB or was it the British radar that acted as a force multiplier.
Do you know how few A/C the Brits actually had after Dunkirk? Do you doubt that they were Hurricanes doing most of the damage? The Germans had the experiance of fighting in Poland, Spain, France and the British had none.
Those are all quite well known facts and I'm not saying or have said anything about them.
What am I saying that is roadkill?
The roadkille part was your claim that Luftwaffe had all advantages and still they couldnt win. roadkille I say. British had radar which helped directing air battle and gave early warning of incoming raids and when RAF pilots was shot down he usually dropped to friendly soil and was able to continue fight unlike lufwaffe pilot who got shot down over england. This is of course advantage or do you disagree.
So, on contrary to your claim, Lufwaffe didn't have all the advantages.
Why do you feel necessary to apolgize for the Luftwaffe?
I apologize only for myself when I have been wrong. Why do you think I feel neccessary to apologize for Luftwaffe?
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A[/b, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Jochen, the Luftwaffe had all those advantages in 1944, yet they still lost. Why?
They were outnumbered no worse that the RAF was during the BoB.
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Widewing, Nath is about 19 years old. That may help you understand (as I need to remind myself too today) that he may still be in that "I know it all" stage of life.
Nath, that's not an age flame nor a dig at you in anyway. But at times it is good for folks older, such as myself, to remember where something is coming from.
It still doesn't excuse your punk attitude nor wanton disregard for someone who's had years of learnign on these subjects. Anyone can rhetorically repeat words from a book. Why don;t you try wrting one from researched facts for a change. And research isn't just looking up the same facts and figures using someone elses bibliograph.
-Westy
t
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Originally posted by Westy:
Widewing, Nath is about 19 years old. That may help you understand (as I need to remind myself too today) that he may still be in that "I know it all" stage of life.
I figured that he was very young. However, that still does not justify my hammering him like I did. You can never convince someone to consider another view by beating him over the head. Nothing prevents listening than an insult. The best way to change a person's understanding is to provide him with indisputable facts, and let those facts sink in.
Nath is a bright young man, he's capable of determining the truth, if he is presented that truth without brow-beating. I will rewrite the my lost response and let him decide for himself. There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
My regards,
Widewing
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Jochen,
In your last post you said quote
The roadkille part was your claim that Luftwaffe had all advantages and still they couldnt win. roadkille I say. British had radar which helped directing air battle and gave early warning of incoming raids and when RAF pilots was shot down he usually dropped to friendly soil and was able to continue fight unlike lufwaffe pilot who got shot down over england. This is of course advantage or do you disagree.
So, on contrary to your claim, Lufwaffe didn't have all the advantages
In my first post I said quote
The Germans had every possible advantage on there side except range and the fact that they were fighting over NME territory. And the Germans still could not win.
So I understand that fighting over your homefield is an advantage and so was the range of the Luftwaffe A/C. However the British radar capability was known to the Germans who spent quite a bit of time bombing those installations to no avail. But it does not change the course of events. A smaller force overcoming a greater force.
Remember it was the Germans who lived by the "Blitz attack" quite successfully against other countries with even larger defenses than England ie France. It was simply the case of the immovable object and the irresistible force. The problem is that as Widewing put it "there is an entire cult dedicated to apologizing for the failure of the Luftwaffe and the Nazi leadership ". This boggles the mind, and to see outrageous claims that the Luftwaffe was somehow overwhelmed from the start is ridiculous based on the BoB alone.
Here is another point to ponder.
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/lv.jpg)
In 1939-40 on the western front what Country or Countries even had 1,500 military A/C flying?? To claim that high of a number in the 21st century is a joke with the knowledge we have today of the over claiming.
Here is another bizarre statement.
Wow and JG 52 and 54 were responsible for over 20,000 kills
How can anybody actually believe that?
Do you realize that is almost as many A/C claimed shot down than the US claimed in total for the entire war on both sides? And that is assuming that the US pilots didn't overclaim. It is a continuing propaganda machine that gets worse with time. In another 50 years they will be saying that they actually won the war.
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Actually, if you look at sorties flown, rather then the actual number of planes, the Luftwaffe only had a very minor advantage in terms of fighter sorties during the BoB. Something like 1.2 to 1. Pre D-Day the allies had around a 2.5 to 1 advantage in fighter sorties. After the spring and summer of '44 when the Luftwaffe was crushed, this rose to around 6 to 1. This is just fighter sorties, and doesn't count bombers. If you look at the Blitzkrieg in 1940, the germans had a 2 or 3 to 1 advantage in fighter sorties. All this just goes to show that numbers are often an important factor.
However, numbers aren't the only factor. If you look at the RAF's daylight attacks during 1941 and 1942, they would often put up hundreds of fighters, and face maybe 50-100 sorties(or often less) in response. However in these situations, the short ranged Spitfires weren't capable of inflicting the level of attrition on JG26 and JG2 that the 8th AF(and the 9th AF and 2nd TAF) were able to inflict on Luftflotte 3 and Luftflotte Reich in 1944. In fact, despite their numerical superiority, the RAF suffered a negative kill/loss ratio in their daylight campaign even with their superior numbers, and this was without counting bomber losses.
So as we can see, a daylight bomber campaign required a number of factors working together.
#1: Equality or superiority in terms of fighter capability. The LW had this in 1940, but without numbers or durable bombers they couldn't establish air superiority or maintain sustainable losses.
#2: Numerical superiority. The RAF had this in 1941 and 1942 over France, but without enough quality fighters, or durable bombers they also couldn't produce any positive results, and took heavy losses.
#3: Durable heavy bombers. Only the US possesed this quality, but even the bombers by themselves couldn't bring about a victory. Witness the Schweinfurt raids in 1943 and you will see proof of this. Without air superiority, even the most durable bombers took heavy losses.
So we can see, that in order to conduct a succesful daylight bomber campaign, all three of these factors had to be brought together. One or two of them couldn't do the trick, and only the 8th AF was able to bring this together during WWII in the face of strong opposition(well I guess you could look at the pacific, but both the IJN and IJAAF were shattered forces by the time B-29s started bombing Japan).
Sable
352nd FG
Originally posted by Nashwan:
Jochen, the Luftwaffe had all those advantages in 1944, yet they still lost. Why?
They were outnumbered no worse that the RAF was during the BoB.
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Actually Sable, I think there may be one common factor in all those equations also.
The lack of a long-range fighter.
The LW was at the height of its effectiveness during the BoB, yet couldn't protect its bombers. Why? Well one main reason is that the 109's could spend so little time over London and then were forced to RTB. The USAAF later found out how effective an un-escorted bomber is. And that doesn't matter if its a B-17 being attacked by 190A8's or a Do-217 being attacked by Hurricane I's.
Since Spitfires couldn't reach into Germany (or deep into France for that matter) the RAF quickly switched to night bombing. As did the LW, eventually.
In fact, had there been too many more Black Thursday's, the USAAF may have had to give up on daylight bombing. Until the -47's got the extra tanks to get to the German border, more -38's showed up and the -51B arrived.
Take a look at my "Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Raid" post. You'll notice how the -47 groups were responsible for Penetration and Withdrawal cover. The same things they'd been responsible for since 43. It wasn't until they had -38 and -51 Groups to cover over Berlin they tried the really huge raids.
And F4UDOA, if you look at the same thread, you'll see the LW overclaimed an average of 2x. (Concerning the same battle, the USAAF overclaimed by 2.7. But that includes the claims by buff gunners, and they overclaimed like wildmen)
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Widewing, Nath is about 19 years old. That may help you understand (as I need to remind myself too today) that he may still be in that "I know it all" stage of life.
Nath, that's not an age flame nor a dig at you in anyway. But at times it is good for folks older, such as myself, to remember where something is coming from.
I am 17.
It still doesn't excuse your punk attitude nor wanton disregard for someone who's had years of learnign on these subjects. Anyone can rhetorically repeat words from a book. Why don;t you try wrting one from researched facts for a change. And research isn't just looking up the same facts and figures using someone elses bibliograph.
Hehehhe, i've been into WWII history since I was 10. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I've traveled to many WW II sites, including Duxford, Normandy, and various museums in the U.S.
Prove the things I have posted wrong and then perhaps I will take what you say into consideration. Because right now books are the only place I get my information from, I currently do not have the sources or contacts to get the true source of the information I am interested in or looking for. I could use some help. I am stating the facts westy, I don't see whats wrong with that, widewing is doing the exact same thing, even if I may disagree.
The only reason I'm here is to further my knowledge on the subject of WWII aviation, having this discussion with Widewing has made me search for information that I had no knowledge of previously and that I now know about.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-06-2001).]
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How can anybody actually believe that?
Do you realize that is almost as many A/C claimed shot down than the US claimed in total for the entire war on both sides? And that is assuming that the US pilots didn't overclaim. It is a continuing propaganda machine that gets worse with time. In another 50 years they will be saying that they actually won the war.
F4udoa, Germany had the most (if not the most) rigorous kill confirmation system in the world. All those are confirmed kills my friend, achieved from 1939 to 1945, the U.S. was only in the war for 3 1/2 years. Also you must remember that the German air forces were outnumbered, especially on the Eastern front, thus it was much easier for German pilots to rack up huge kill counts while for Allied pilots it took months to even see an enemy aircraft.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Actually only about one half of all Allied pilots ever claimed so much as a share in a kill. I can't find the quote for the life of me, but I remember Mike Spick saying something along those lines in Luftwaffe Fighter Aces. Below is a link to a victory report someone posted on a good site:
www.members.aol.com/dheitm8612/victory.htm (http://www.members.aol.com/dheitm8612/victory.htm)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"During the Battle of Britain the question 'fighter or fighter-bomber?'
had been decided once and for all: The fighter can only be used as a bomb carrier
with lasting effect when sufficient air superiority has been won." Adolph Galland
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/headbanger.gif)