Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Sancho on January 27, 2001, 04:53:00 AM
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I've been experimenting with Rhinoceros (http://www.emtsoft.com/mproducts.html), a 3d modeler, and managed to make something resembling a P-47. I painted it up in the colors of 63rd FS P-47M-1.
<EDIT>
This is the current model rendered in POV 19 Feb:
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/pix/jug9pix.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Not drag you to far off topic but is that a P-47M?
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Originally posted by Jimdandy:
Not drag you to far off topic but is that a P-47M?
The P-47 in the actual photo is a P-47N. You cab detect this by the squared-off wing tips and the non-blending fillet of the vertical stabilizer.
The color plated used By Sancho may or may not reflect a P-47M. Here's why: All the P-47Ms were delivered without underwing pylons. However, most were retro-fitted with them by April of 1945. Likewise, these fighters were not fitted with the stabilizer fillet during manufacture, but most were retro-fitted with it in the field.
The only way to determine if this is an M, is to look at the serial number on the vertical stabilizer. All P-47Ms can be found to carry a serial number from 44-21108 - 44-21237. The number on the color profile appears to read: 0342. This corresponds to 44-90342, which was a P-47D-40-RA (built in the Evansville plant). This is not inconsistant with the 56th FG, who after encountering teething trouble with the M, were allocated some late model Ds in early 1945.
I realize that this is somwhat overkill in answering your simple question. Nonetheless, I thought you might like a full explanation.
My regards,
Widewing
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Here's P-47M UN-S of the 56th FG, 63rd FS.
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/P-47M-1-RE.JPG)
My Regards,
Widewing
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Nice Widewing. P-47M-1 flown by Lt. Arthur T. Shupe.
BTW, the serials on my 2 jugs, the 3d one and the drawing are bogus. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But they are supposed to be M models.
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One question Widewing... you UN*S picture shows a US insignia under the port wing. I thought these late models only had US on upper port and lower stbd wings, as in the photo. What is correct for late war, Mar-May 45 markings?
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Originally posted by Sancho:
One question Widewing... you UN*S picture shows a US insignia under the port wing. I thought these late models only had US on upper port and lower stbd wings, as in the photo. What is correct for late war, Mar-May 45 markings?
I have three photos of 56th FG P-47Ms, depicting four different aircraft. Two aircraft have the insignia on the underside of the port wing, and two don't.
Go figure.....
My regards,
Widewing
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Thx for the info Widewing. <S>
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Rhino is a good modeller (been using it since before it was in beta) but its renderer sucks. Unfortunately, the best method of creating photo-realistic skins comes from the use of "Pov-Ray," which is freeware but has a high learning curve. You can use any high-end ray-tracer you wish, but Pov is free. There are a few conversion utilites out there that will help as well. I use Mega-Pov, which allows for a better reflectivity model (handy in aircraft skins to say the least).
If you are serious about this let me know and I'll get in touch.
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Those are not photographs and I bet the artist just made a mistake.
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Bare*Metal*Finish
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I don't know, I think it was at the painter fantasie. I did a model from Zenke's display aircraft "Oregon Britania". It had insinia both side of the bottom wing. I thought it was wrong.
I checked in my books were some 56th planes pictures are printed. I saw (for what I could see) insignas of right side only, on left side only, on both sides. But most of them I had to guess as u barrely can see the bottom of the other wing.
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HTC hire sancho!
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POV-ray's nice but I prefer Blender (http://www.blender.nl/). It's a freeware 3D suite, and can be used with as good results as Lightwave under the guided hand of a master. It too has a learning curve, but mostly for us M$ users in the world: it was designed for Linux, much like the GIMP, and so it's not quite what Windows users are used to.
That being said, take the time to learn it, and you can get results as good or better than POVray, and all visually. It has the added bonus of graphical realtime representation of your texturing, if you have a nice, fast OpenGL card.
You can check out Blenderwars (http://blenderwars.homestead.com/), which is a loose conglomerate of Blender users who're working on Star Wars models and fan films using nothing but freeware alternatives. There's a great Models page for some textured examples.
For some examples...
(http://www.blender.nl/gallery/images/doogieducati.jpg)
(http://media.blendermania.com/members/Cujo31/gallery/Cujo31_2.2.jpg)
(http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/5400/apc3.jpg)
(http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/5400/game.jpg)
Anyhow, nuff said.
Jay.
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Real pretty pictures, but I have never seen Blender win the IRTC! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have Blender, as well, but as you stated... Unix.
Sancho's using Rhino, and Rhino outputs to Pov in native format. 'nuff said.
Voss
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...and Blender can use BMRT (http://www.bmrt.org/). 'Nuff said, indeed.
Also has native support for DXF files and Python scripts for use of other models like 3DS. You'll still have to texture 'em, but hey, that's half the fun, right?
Re- IRTC. Not suprized Blender's never won, on account of it's the Internet raytracing competition. Blender's not a ray-tracer, but it can sure look like one. How about we compare ease of animating a scene between the two? How about modelling heightfields? This could go on all day...
Jay.
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Well, since writing Pov script is like programming C++, animations are as easy as pie. Maybe you were talking about assembling frames? Freeware software again. Programs like DTA, BMP2AVI, CMPeg, and more are found on numerous web sites. Further, Colefax's spline include allows you to create multiple time frame events with complicated physics, transitions, and even fragmentations.
Height_fields are really easy too. In fact, Pov can easily create hf_grey_16 images which are exactly what you need for h_f's. Mega-POV goes further in this area, too. The pattern format for h_f's can use any standard pattern to create h-f's of so many descriptions you couldn't name them all. Further, Mega-POV outputs true depth-fields. Modelling h_f's? Just like in AutoCAD I tend to create triangle meshes either by direct input (coding), or via meshes. Pov also supports bezier patches, which give better results. You don't have to hand code meshes though, as I stated earlier about hf_grey_16's. POV supports so many h_f methods you could never use them all.
With all of the support packages like WCVT2POV and 3DWin you won't have any problem with mesh files of ANY description. But, since we were talking about Rhino's output... POV.
Textures are part of the learning curve, it is true, but since I created and released the WWII texture include (posted on Pov's binaries NG) you shouldn't have too many problems with aircraft, especially the aluminum finish of the P-47. Of course, I am assuming the use of Mega-POV (in expectations of the release of Pov 3.5, which will use similar/same nomenclature). The camo schemes of British, German, and American aircraft are very straight forward color_maps with light turbulence. Nothing difficult about that IMO, but if you have to resort to using image_maps overlaying your model it will do that too.
PLUS, you don't have to run two separate environments to create and then test your work (linux and then winblows for skin use on planes).
Pov also allows you to run scripts after execution of a scene, so assembling and viewing animations can be a hands off operation.
Blender better? No way! Better then TruSpace, maybe. Nothing beats Pov, but you have to know Pov to get good results. Masterful results are had by many. Just do a web search, or follow the Pov links.
Further, the source is available for your personal modifications.
I will post my latest P-51D when I get it finished. I have every detail of the cockpit, and exterior of the model included. That's a lot. Right now I am working on panel fasteners and the like. If, only I had a good Poser model of a WWII USAAF pilot, you would not be able to tell it from the real thing. AND, the motion_blur of Mega_POV makes the best looking prop motion I have ever seen.
I will say, that patience is the hardest hurdle to overcome. 800x600 hi-color animations can take weeks to render. The results are better then TV or motion pictures, but not even today's internet supports the bandwidth to share that kind of work (my last 250+ frame animation of this size exceeded 100Megs).
Now, if we can only convince HT to release a skin editor (ain't gonna happen).
Anyway, 'nuff said. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Voss
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Originally posted by Voss:
Rhino is a good modeller (been using it since before it was in beta) but its renderer sucks. Unfortunately, the best method of creating photo-realistic skins comes from the use of "Pov-Ray," which is freeware but has a high learning curve.
Yeah, I noticed that renderer in Rhino is kinda flaky. If I add any spotlights, my plane gets this really wierd mottled bump map effect all over--and I'm not even using bump maps. The only way to get it to look smooth is to use only ambient light, but then the model looks made of plastic.
I've started tooling around with POV, exported my jug to POV-mesh. So far I've been getting used to doing everything in code instead of from GUI, moving the camera around, adding lights, etc.
About Blender, I've tried to use that before, but my brain is not compatible with it's interface. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It sounds lame, but I have problems rendering a simple sphere in that program! I'm sure it's very powerful in the right hands, but to me POV seems a lot easier to understand.
Any tips for starting with texturing the model in POV?
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Sure. What ever you are using for the pigment of your current work looks good enough. You need to make a good finish and normal, though. Well, actually I think you can let the normal go. Unless, you want to go back and clip out the individual panels, then the normal would make this too complicated a project.
In Mega-POV I use the following texture for the aluminum base:
#declare USAAF_Aluminum = texture {
pigment { color rgb .6 }
finish { ambient 0 diffuse .5 reflect_metallic reflection_type 0 reflection_min .152 reflection_max .261 phong 0 specular .99 roughness .000005 metallic 1 }
normal { dents -.25 scale .04 } }
I scaled my 51 model down a ton, in order to fit universal scaling into animation variables, etc. The only thing you have to change, in order to fit any larger models with the above declaration, is the scaling of the normal.
To use this with the official version of POV, remove all of the reflection definitions and replace them with reflection .8*<reflection_max vector>, or 2.61 as above.
I have a blur model for aluminum too, but unless you are using one of the new 1.2Ghz TBird machines at 1.6Ghz (or similar) you won't want to wait for a render of it.
I recommend layering the texture with different pigment statements. In other words, for spots like the insignia you would want to create an image map and simply define a texture as several pigments, but all with the same finish and normal. Of course, your painted P-47 will not use the same reflectivity, as the naked aluminum I defined.
I don't know how you defined the various points of your Thunderbolt like the red section of the cowling, but I use two methods of defining a particular section. The first method is the intersection with primitives, or unioned primitives. The second method is to define a primitive and define a sub-object as the larger mesh bounded_by a defined object(bounded_by { insignia_primitive}), and finally clipped_by the bounding object (clipped_by { bounded_by })
This would make the rudder hinge line come out more to scale, depending upon how you defined the bounding object. Always perform bounds and clips on untextured meshes. Otherwise, the process is unproductive. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
My P-51 has a texture definition that contains more then 100 different pigments. There are a lot of stenciled warnings and errata on these aircraft. Worse, I used as much as five different textures within a material_map in order to reproduce surface anomalies, artifacts, and objects like flush fasteners. It's a mess, and it uses a ton of memory during the render.
</edit on>
Also, with Mega-POV you will want to make use of the global_settings block. You were having trouble controlling your light before. The way to avoid that is to use zero ambient light (ambient_light <0,0,0> ) and adjust diffuse lighting to get the best results. Also, you get the best results with radiosity. If you make skins I recommend rendering with radiosity and then optimizing for performance later. The more detail you add the lower you want to set aliasing. So, if you go so far as to add fasteners and panel lines and stencils, etc., then set aliasing down as low as +a0.01 for awesome results.
The motion_blur declaration goes in the global area too. Use Rhino to make a scale prop. Then, define your m_b in the global as "motion_blur 24,64" and instance the prop as:
motion_blur { prop_object rotate clock*prop_rpm*axis_of_interest }
You can find Mega-POV over at: http://nathan.kopp.com/patched.htm (http://nathan.kopp.com/patched.htm)
</edit off>
Always willing to help. Hope I made sense and it helps you out.
Voss
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-04-2001).]
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Voss, thanks a lot for the help. I'm starting to get pretty handy with POV now, thanks to you! I've got the cowl and rudder colors isolated by intersecting those parts with a box to isolate colored from bare aluminum, and I got to layering PNG files with insignias and transparent backgrounds on top of aluminum on the fuselage. Texture placement is suprisingly easier than in Rhino.
I also made a low polygon version of my jug so I can get the textures placed with minimal render time... about 30 seconds for parsing and rendering total. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The real deal with thousands of polys takes a few minutes right now.
I haven't looked at Mega-POV yet. It looks promising, but I'm still refining the model and texture placement in standard POV ray. I'm sure I'll have more questions for ya when I tackle stuff like the propeller in motion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm thoroughly impressed with the quality of POVs rendering, and I'm having a lot of fun with this. Thanks again.
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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First of all, you are welcome. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I will always help with this sort of thing.
You'll eventually want Mega-POV(m-p). It is impossible to get a realistic metal without it. When the official 3.5 version comes out things might be different, but keeping a version of m-p around will always be a good thing. Too, if you want to draw tracers... (hint hint). You current code will still render without modification. AND, when you turn on radiosity it will blow you out of our seat.
When you download m-p, just rename the exe 'MegaPov.exe' and make a new shortcut to c:\program_files\Pov-Ray for...\bin\MegaPov.exe and it can peacefully coexist with your official stuff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regarding motion_blur, I usually set up my models to be pitch positive to the negative z axis. The nose points down the negative z-axis and the canopy is toward the positive y-axis. The center of the prop should be centered on the z-axis, in this case. Then it is just a matter of revolutions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Uh, don't forget to add any prop markings, or it won't look quite real.
You cannot nest m-b's. It will be necessary for you to instance the model and prop separately, in order for forward m_b to work.
Good work dropping the polygon size. I always go the other way, so I can get all of the details on.
I can't wait to see the results! Post it would ya? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Nice work, Sancho.
I do quite a lot of 3-D modelling at work, however we use Macs almost exclusively. I can recommend a program called Strata StudioPro (Mac and PC versions... in fact you can download an older but very powerful version for free). Of course if you can fork out the dough, you cannot beat ElectricImage.
Texturing techniques are pretty universal, though, and these tips should help you...
If your program allows it (hafta say I never heard of Rhino) use multiple layers of texture maps. For example, the camouflage can be mapped onto the fuselage cylindrically on one map, and the markings can be applied on top of that (using an Alpha Channel as a mask) but applied in a Planar fashion. That way you don't have to worry about how the texture wraps around compound curves. And you can make different versions of the same plane just by changing the Markings map only.
If you can use texture maps to add as much detail as you can, do it. Don't model what you can texture. If Rhino lets you make bump maps, this is one of the most useful features there are. For example, you can use line art to represent the panel lines, etc., and the "bump" will cast highlights and shadows.
Layering texture elements, like reflection maps, specular (gloss) maps, ambient maps, glow maps, will give you the most realistic effects. It takes a bit of practice to get them right, but judging from your work above, you'll have no problem getting it.
Hope it helps. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ok, I've done like Dux suggested and textured the fuselage with a cylindrical map, and applied the squadron code letters with a planar map (map_type 0). Problem is it projects through to the opposite side of the fuselage, giving me a mirror image on the starboard side. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
Is there a way in POV or MegaPOV to only project to the nearest surface instead of all the way through a mesh?
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$1500 for that program!
One of the reasons I keep returning to the MegaPOV topic is the way it handles environments. In the case of making a model for AH I would take a bunch of stills from inside the game and merge them together as the interior texture of a hollow sphere. Then, any reflections on the surfaces would match the environment the skin is intended for.
Bump_maps in POV are part of the normal statement. Map_type 0 is planar, 1 is spherical, 2 is cylindrical, and 5 is toroidal. Use interpolate 4, and I recommend applying different normals inside of a material map if you can work it out.
Have fun and keep on tracing! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Sancho:
Is there a way in POV or MegaPOV to only project to the nearest surface instead of all the way through a mesh?
Yes. Go back and look at the bounded_by and clipped_by statements I recommended. You can use the text object within a bound, or even an intersection to get what you are after.
If that's not enough of a hint just ask and I'll go on.
<edit>
You can also use a cylindrical image mapping and instantiate it only once "map_type 2 once," but getting the scaling of the image map just right can be quite a pain.
</edit>
Voss
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-04-2001).]
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Ah, gotcha! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I also figured an ez way to do the wing, since the underside would have a different texture,but there isn't a single level plane intersecting its irregular shape. I just drew a second wing object with the lower texture translated -0.0001 below on the y axis. It's coming along now. I should have a picture to post soon...
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That's interesting, alright. Did you build washout into the wing? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know the dihedral would complicate clipping the wing upper and lower sections, but you can use different boxes to get the same result. Unless, you designed the wing at the true incidence angle, then it might take some experimentation to get the translation right.
I can't wait to see what you have now! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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<edit> Old ugly pic deleted. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You can see the old versions here (jugNpix.jpg): http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/pix/ (http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/pix/)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Well, it's getting there all right. And GREAT WORK, btw.
It looks like a few ambient values are messing with you.
Want a good canopy texture?
#declare CanopyPlexiglass = material { texture { pigment { color rgbt <.995,.995,.995,.9995> }
finish { ambient 0 diffuse .00625 reflection_type 1 reflection_min .075 reflection_max .085 roughness .0005 phong .009 phong_size 40 } }
interior { ior 1.45 } }
Again, that's a MegaPOV specific syntax and you'll have to modify the reflection statements accordingly. Reflection_type 1 is an ior specific model that gives convincing results.
Move your light_source at least 300 units in all components of the offset. Calculate the distance from the light_source to the model, and use that as your fade_distance. Use fade_power 1000 for a cool fade. MP's glow works great here too.
I can help you tweak your settings there when you get freed up to try some more stuff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You need a prop! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Can't wait to see more!
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Hi folks,
I had to head outta town on biz this weekend, and I see that Voss has been busy... Sooo.
BTW Sancho, I also think your work is awesome. I wish I had the patience and the time to sit and model more... its especially satisfying to perfect that self-made project.
Now, onto the latest claims.
Well, since writing Pov script is like programming C++, animations are as easy as pie. Maybe you were talking about assembling frames? Freeware software again. Programs like DTA, BMP2AVI, CMPeg, and more are found on numerous web sites. Further, Colefax's spline include allows you to create multiple time frame events with complicated physics, transitions, and even fragmentations.
Height_fields are really easy too. In fact, Pov can easily create hf_grey_16 images which are exactly what you need for h_f's. Mega-POV goes further in this area, too. The pattern format for h_f's can use any standard pattern to create h-f's of so many descriptions you couldn't name them all. Further, Mega-POV outputs true depth-fields. Modelling h_f's? Just like in AutoCAD I tend to create triangle meshes either by direct input (coding), or via meshes. Pov also supports bezier patches, which give better results. You don't have to hand code meshes though, as I stated earlier about hf_grey_16's. POV supports so many h_f methods you could never use them all.
With all of the support packages like WCVT2POV and 3DWin you won't have any problem with mesh files of ANY description. But, since we were talking about Rhino's output... POV.
Call me crazy, but not everyone I know is a C++ programmer. Its about basic usage, Voss... what are people more likely to consider "intuitive", script-based programming of a raytraced scene, or a GUI, even one thats ported from Linux? Remember, I'm a previous POV user, I'm not against it as a renderer... in fact, when I first started fiddling in the realm of CGI it was with POV, on the recommendation of a programmer I knew here in the city.
Is Blender better? I know that I find it easier to do the things I want to do, for lots of reasons. I can see what I'm creating, as its being created. It has a faster renderer, even with very complex scenes. It supports a variety of formats, and can output to a variety as well. Its a freeware alternative to high-cost 3D suites like Lightwave or 3DStudio, and it can be as powerful in the hands of an experienced user. Creating animations that rely on object and/or camera movement is easy, especially in scenes where complex camera angles and irregular curves are necessary.
As an aside, 250 frames of animation coming in at 100 megs is a bit much... time to check out alternative codecs, friend. *grin*
Sancho, glad to hear you've tried Blender... give it another shot sometime, and find yourself some good links for tutorials to get you aquainted with its interface. The biggest hurdle most first-time Blender users encounter is its support for 3-button mice: without one, you're left with a whole lot more keypresses to do basic stuff. However, it can be worked around, easily.
Rendering a simple sphere: (please note- capital letters count in Blender)
1) open Blender. Hit the x key to delete all objects/cameras.
2) Hit the A key. Select Mesh-> UVSphere. Select parameters. (rings, etc)
3) Goto the Materials button. hit the "-" button on the bottom window. Select New Material. Use default grey.
4) Place a camera. Hit A, select Camera. Reposition camera by selecting it (right click on it) and moving in the 3D view window. You can change viewing angle with your keypad. (7=top down, 1=forward view, 3=side view, 0=Camera view)
5) Place lightsources. Hit A, select Lamp, repeat as desired.
6) Goto render buttons. Choose your size and format with the buttons to the right of the bottom window, and be sure to hit the OSA button to get anti-aliased rendering. Pay attention to your Start and End button on the bottom of the window, set them both to 1.
Voila, a sphere.
And finally, for the record, I also remember that the icefield scene in Titan AE was done in (you guessed it) POVray. It is indeed powerful in the right hands, but it is definitely weighted towards the dedicated script-minded.
That should be " 'nuff said"... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
*S* and regards,
Jay.
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Did you ever try Lutz Kretzschmar's "Moray for Windows?" The advantages of the interface you mentioned are similar to that which Moray offers. I used Moray for a little while myself. It makes creating complicated scenes very easy, too. It also allows for rendering, with Pov, from within the interface. Unfortunately, it is limited shareware (limited time). It also uses a right-hand reference system, versus the left-hand system I got used to.
I wasn't aware that there were codecs for FLH files. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) How many animations have you made that were 800x600x16million colors? That's where the huge file size comes in. If you have a solution, please forward it. Mpeg's allow for 256 colors. Avi's may allow more, but 800x600 images seem to overwhelm every attempt I have made at piecing one together, because playbacks become a slide show. I would like to know of a solution if you have one.
As for me, I have been known to create very complex objects from direct input, so I suppose I've overcome the need for a modeller where only primitives are involved. For complicated meshes I use TruSpace.
Wasn't POV used in the creation of all of the "Veggie Tales" movies, too? It really doesn't matter, but they sure have a POV feel to them.
I would like to see a realistic rendering of a simple object (like a steel wrench, or something else simple and metallic) from Blender. Just to compare. I'll never switch. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I'll do something too (probably a wrench) just to compare. You may win a temporary convert. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for speed: To me, if it isn't a ray-tracer, it's not even in the race.
Voss
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-06-2001).]
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Heya Voss...
Lots there, hey? *grin*
Did you ever try Lutz Kretzschmar's "Moray for Windows?" The advantages of the interface you mentioned are similar to that which Moray offers. I used Moray for a little while myself. It makes creating complicated scenes very easy, too. It also allows for rendering, with Pov, from within the interface. Unfortunately, it is limited shareware (limited time). It also uses a right-hand reference system, versus the left-hand system I got used to.
MORay is nice, but as you say, time limited shareware. I also remember thinking (when I first used it) animations seemed awkward. That being said, having learned blender, I dunno if I'd say the same now.
How many animations have you made that were 800x600x16million colors? That's where the huge file size comes in. If you have a solution, please forward it.
Well... I'd suggest you compile to an AVI and then use VirtualDub to tweak the settings. I have compiled lots in 16 million, but not at 800X600. Usually, I'm at 400X300 and I use DivX, from TGA's in Blender. With the right compression settings, I was getting about 1 meg per minute of footage, with sound... so at twice resolution, I'd expect about 3 megs/minute, allowing for very little artifacts in the AVI. Even MOV's can be tweaked to about this magic limit, but I don't think they'll do so well on a large file. DivX, OTOH, can.
I would like to see a realistic rendering of a simple object (like a steel wrench, or something else simple and metallic) from Blender. Just to compare. I'll never switch. I'll do something too (probably a wrench) just to compare. You may win a temporary convert.
Hm... I'm not near an A1 modeller in Blender, but I'll do my best... may be time for me to put money where the mouth is... *grin*
Its been a pleasure... but I am interested on POV's ability to use BMRT... do you know if it can?
As for speed: To me, if it isn't a ray-tracer, it's not even in the race.
I'm of another school... if I don't have a renderfarm of a network, I don't wanna compile animations that take more than 10 seconds a frame, if possible.
Jay.
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Moray has grown up. I think the animation tools have been instated making it easier to work with.
I have some of the best video tools that there are for Windows (Premiere for one). I can get 6secs/Meg with audio, and that's at 320x240x16mill. 800x600 will always be huge. BUT, the animation I was referring to is an FLH sequence designed to play at 32fps while at fullscreen in a DOS session. That's not easy to do with 16million colors (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You don't need BMRT if you can use POV. You can 'dummy down' POV by going to quick color options, and removing all the reflection and highlighting from the finish statements.
*grin* I had my wrench done about thirty minutes before you posted your message. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm not going to leave the url up long, so I thought I'd wait on you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Voss
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BUT, the animation I was referring to is an FLH sequence designed to play at 32fps while at fullscreen in a DOS session.
WHY?!?!
You don't need BMRT if you can use POV.
I'm REALLY sure that's a matter of opinion. Riddle me this: what quality of rendering am I likely to find in a Hollywood movie, POV's raytracing or Renderman?
Re- the wrench, its forthcoming, I'm between work assignments, big dumps of snow, and a messed up sleep schedule. I'll get it posted before long... *grin*
Regards,
Jay.
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Why?
It needed to play full screen, loop endlessly without a stutter, and be beautiful.
Riddle me this: what quality of rendering am I likely to find in a Hollywood movie, POV's raytracing or Renderman?
That changes everyday. I would guess that every render farm out there (cgi whatever) has Pov textures they use with whatever engine. That's not what I'm into.
Re- the wrench, its forthcoming, I'm between work assignments, big dumps of snow, and a messed up sleep schedule. I'll get it posted before long... *grin*
hm,hmm, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) BTW, there is a faction in the MegaPov group to incorporate povman into MegaPov. You won't see it for another few months, becuase they are improving on surface derivatives When it finally is incorporated there won't be a better surface shader. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Unfortunately, it looks like they are dropping Linux support. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I was holding out hope I could move over to linux, but I guess I'm stuck with DOS/Windows.
<edit>
removed wrench image
</edit>
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-11-2001).]
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Just a note. PovMan = renderman extensions.
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Way off the subject but just 2 quick questions! Voss u ever play AW3 and fly under Voss in the WWI arena? How does Paint Shop Pro7 rate against the programs you've been talking here, it's the only one I got!
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Wow Sancho, I can't wait to see it all complete!
I'm impressed.
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<edit> Old pic deleted for faster downloading of this thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You can see the old versions here (jugNpix.jpg): http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/pix/ (http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/pix/)
Ok, as you can see, I'm back to the modeling program again (http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/pix/jug7pix.jpg)... I wasn't happy with some things from the first model... the canopy was just plain wrong, and the front end was too simple. I've added a prop, fixed the canopy shape up and added a rounded edge to the front of the cowl on the inside, also adding the air duct just below the R-2800 that feeds the turbosupercharger intercooler. I've decided to at least model the R-2800 appearance from the outside, instead of drawing a texture for it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) The P-47 Walk Around book really helps to have!
Voss, how would you recommend doing control surfaces? Do you cut them out of wing shape or model them separately? If you cut them out, do you do it in your modeller or in POV? BTW, nice wrench! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Tyro, Paint Shop Pro is basically just a 2d paint and photo manipulation program, so it can't really do 3d stuff. I just read today on /. (http://www.slashdot.org) about a new, free 3d modeling program called OpenFX (http://openfx.org/). I might check that out, since I'm still using the Rhino demo! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Voss, how would you recommend doing control surfaces? Do you cut them out of wing shape or model them separately? If you cut them out, do you do it in your modeller or in POV?
I recommend one thing, but do another. I recommend that you bound and clip from within Pov. That will give you the coordinates you need in order to manipulate the surfaces, should you need to (and we know you will). However, I model them in from the mesh builder and normalize their location before exporting to Pov. I do it that way in order to save translation before texturing and then reverse translating for position (saves on memory if you follow me). Either way there will be some extra work in getting the surface into place just right. The appoach I follow allows for more detail, but more work, too.
Is your rudder a separate mesh from the fuselage? I noticed a bad hinge line before, which a well thought out CSG could fix. Just a thought.
<edit>
Wallpaper removed in the interest of bandwidth. If you would like to see it just post a request.
</edit>
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Originally posted by Tyro48:
Way off the subject but just 2 quick questions! Voss u ever play AW3 and fly under Voss in the WWI arena? How does Paint Shop Pro7 rate against the programs you've been talking here, it's the only one I got!
I'm not sure about AW3. How long ago was it? I flew in one of their free betas for awhile. I usually stick to the P-51, but the Dr.1 is my favorite ride of all time. Yes, I landed a VERY high sortie count one beta night. Were you there? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PSP is a good paint, or post-process program. It does not include a renderer. Pov-Ray is a renderer, and not much else. You can make it do other things, but you have to get used to it first. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (I recently used it to create four fonts I needed very badly, but I needed an outside utility, too)
If, you have ever seen the "how to" segments on computer generated imagery (like Jurassic Park, or Walking with Dinosaurs), then you have seen what Pov does, only on a much less intensive level. The good news is, Pov is *FREE* for download and use.
http://www.povray.org/ (http://www.povray.org/)
Try it out. It's free after all! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Don't let it beat you, either. A lot of people give up the first time they open it. It looks intimidating when you see it is script oriented. You do not need to program to use it, if you just think of the syntax as 'adjectives' for the description of objects you create. Programming does make recursive processes more efficient, but you can avoid that until you are ready for it. I still make simple sphere scenes myself! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AND, if you need help just ask.
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Nope wasnt there, it was just a curiosity, my brother flew WWI alot in AW3 and knew a very helpful person there who flew under the handle of Voss, as for POV I did follow your thread last night and downloaded it, havent gotten to it yet though, one daughter has just delivered a granddaughter and oldest daughter is due any day, on my way to Calif. for the great event. And my new KT7 motherboard keeps losing track of the hard drive and is making computer life a challenge at the moment other than that I should get to it soon and see what it has to offer <G>. Thanks for the offer of help, guess thats why you reminded me of the gentleman my brother often spoke of!
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Bye the bye Sancho very nice work! It's inspiring.
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I am very impressed with your progress on the P47, Sancho! It doesn't look like anyone has picked up on your posting it within the original post, though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Voss
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Wrench model update...
I'm putting finishing touches on my wrench... watch for a posting or two tomorrow. I also have a more experiences Blender-user doing one for contrast.
Download DivX folks.
Jay.
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Hey, you might just make a convert of me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm looking forward to seeing the results. Please, post the process times for comparison.
Voss
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OK, not to through a 'wrench' into this fine thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , but I am just now starting to learn 3DSMax (I got a deal on it, didn't pay anywhere near full price (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ). Having said that, I have a lot of questions I hope you guys wouldn't mind answering. BTW, <S!> Sancho on that P-47, I am enjoying watching your progress on it as well! Voss, that Rendering of the P-51 reflection on the skin of the other is awesome! In fact, that is how good I want to eventually get at this. So, on to my questions.
1) How do I want to model aircraft in 3D? Do I want to use meshs, NURBS, Something else?
2) Should I use POV for rendering (Getting way ahead of myself here, as I haven't constructed the model yet)?
Basically, I am looking for any advice you can give a newbie at this that might make my mistakes a little less painful when they happen. I am planning on modeling a Ki-61, as I have some nice 3 view drawings of this plane I found online that give a lot of detail information.
I would also like to know if it is OK if I e-mail you guys (Voss, Jay, Sancho) individually for tips or hints? Or maybe you guys know of a good generic '3D Modeling' BB for aviation.
Really enjoying this thread though. Thanks and regards to all of you.
Note: Hey, Voss, could you e-mail me a small pic of your P-51 rendered? I would really like to see it. I promise not to post it or distribute it. Either way, thanks for all the info.
------------------
Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Sundog,
IMHO, you're always better off using the renderer for your software first. 3DS is a very popular piece of software which is very powerful in the right hands. You'll get raytraced output if rendered in POVray, but if you're rendering more than a single frame (i.e. animation) the amount of time it'll take to render it all for a minimal improvement in the final vid (IMHO) I'd suggest you stick with the 3DStudio rendering. Shucks, the reason people mainly use POV (or Blender for that matter) is that its free... if they could get their hands on a copy of LW or 3DS we wouldn't have half the users of either. The truly dedicated (and I think I count Voss among 'em) will stick it out when they recognize its power, and esp. when they can make best use of that. I still think FMV can be done to POVray standards without raytracing, but it means high framerates and motion blur, both of which 3DS can help you with...
I can't remember if 3DS exports to POV or not, either... but there's ways around that.
Anyhoo, enough preaching, I'm finding webspace...
[edit]
also, whilst I ponder it... I'm interested in seeing if those of us interested in this kind of work (modelling in general) don't wanna exchange ICQ numbers too, for tips and questions. I sure don't mind getting tips on texturing from POV users, thats for sure... *grin* Mine's 112214.
Jay.
[This message has been edited by Jay_76 (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Hmm, I'm wondering if we should continue to post in A&V, or ask that HTC add another forum? I am sure there are more then just the four of us doing modelling.
Sundog, you can email me at voss@13thtas.com as can anyone truly interested in modelling/rendering/ray-tracing. I have ICQ (75865381), but I only use it for large file transfers. So, if you want me on you'll have to email me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hmm, the only image I have created of my latest P-51 is not a complete model. Rather, then go into a long-winded explanation of why, I'll just say it'll be finished soon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I don't mind sharing, but you'll have to wait. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
3DS is an awesome system. I have played around with it myself, but would rather use the money for computer upgrades and flying. I think you can use nurbs, but definately meshes. As long as you can export to 3DS, or DXF format you'll be okay. If, HTC goes to the trouble of creating a modelling forum, I'll spend some time creating a basic modelling tutorial (geared toward TrueSpace, but applicable to all approaches I think).
Use 3DS' rendering tools, until you are satisfied everything is working just right. Your textures will not transfer to Pov, though (save image_maps), so only spend time on textures in 3DS if you intend to make animations/stills with it. Skill with 3DS is mandatory for the gaming industry (modellers), so this is good experience.
If you intend to use POV for rendering be prepared for a second learning curve. Again, a tutorial will help.
Pov-Ray supports a newsgroup for users of Pov. There are aircraft modellers on there, but for the most part aircraft posts are lost in the flood of users. I can just about guaranteee that I can get a few of the Pov users to swing over here if we have a forum for modelling/rendering. A few of them have already expressed an interest in the Terrain Editor and map making.
As, I said before, I will post an image of my 51 once it is complete. I bet that I'll get accused of using a photo. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Voss
...-.-
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Well,
here's my contribution, bearing in mind I'm a newbie to Blender: BUT it took me an afternoon to learn all the concepts needed to do this half-right (the model that is) and then I played with it with the concepts I already had in blender. You'll need DivX (http://divx.ctw.cc) to see the video...
(http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/j76.parsons/UPA_Studios/Wrench.jpg)
Valid stats: Each frame rendered (400X300, using the unified renderer) at about 7 secs apiece. The regular renderer does almost as nice at ~4 secs.
The vid can be accessed here... (http://www3.nf.sympatico.ca/j76.parsons/UPA_Studios/wrench.avi) The audio sucks... I have lost usage of DivX's excellent MP3-style audio compression so I had to downsample badly to get an indicative filesize.
I have another Blender-user finishing up his own contribution to this for reference.
Anyhoo... thoughts? Can we see yours again Voss?
Jay.
[This message has been edited by Jay_76 (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Thanks guys! My ICQ is 8297341. A Aircraft/Modeling forum here would be excellent! Maybe we could get Natedog and Superfly to share some tips as well!
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'
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Hey everyone. I'm the one Jay mentioned. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm going to talk a bit and put up my wrench sometime soon, but first it looks like I have quite a bit of reading to do. =P
-Melvil
BTW Voss, could I take a look at your wrench?
I just finished reading this thread, but theres not much I coul say that hasen't already been said. At that, I will finish up my wrench and be back tommorow. G'night! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Melvil (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Nice to meet you, Melvil! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I don't mind at all, Jay. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I tried to install the DivX codec. Maybe, because I haven't rebooted yet, it isn't working. I'll try again after I post this.
The following is a full radiosity (1600 count) rendering with aliasing set very low (.03). Any more information then that will only get confusing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Render time was closing in on five hours! Coding the object (no modeller used; this is pure Pov) took a mere five minutes.
Removing the radiosity section of the code results in render times of just 5 mins, at 800x600, and 1 min. 12secs. at 400x300. Further speed enhancements could be obtained by eliminating things like variable reflectivity (angle-dependant) and area lighting. Further, using a black background rather then foreground flooring and walls would help, too.
Hmm, didn't think to try an animation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://www.telxcom.com/~baremetl/9-16.jpg)
<edit>
Oops, forgot to use the image tags (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
</edit>
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Jay, the codec installed fine. Yet, Media Player is having trouble playing your animation. The system reports that the codec may not be installed. Adobe Premiere has the same problem. Now I'm all bummed out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
<edit> After looking into this the best I could I am beginning to think there is an error in the file. I tried a few conversion routines and they all reported an error. The audio section seems fine, and I can determine that the video is 400x300 at 20fps. That's the extent of it though.
</edit>
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-17-2001).]
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To demonstrate a feature of MegaPov that I have mentioned here is a prop with, and without motion blur. The prop is a naive attempt at the cuffed Hamilton Standard. The prop in motion is rotating at 2600 rpm and is rendered approximately as a human would perceive it (a single sample at ~32fps).
In creating this you would model the prop and then texture it. Instantiating it within a motion blur statement as:
motion_blur { object { Prop } rotate z*clock*2600 }
Where 2600 is the number of revolutions per minute, z the axis of interest, and clock the current time value (an animation variable). I set the MB instance at 32 samples and 1/32 as the fraction of time (i.e. "motion_blur 32,1/32" within the global block).
Render time is less then 1 minute in this simple scene, but blurs of this nature can really slow down a render.
(http://www.telxcom.com/~baremetl/PropInMotion.jpg)
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Voss!
I've talked a lot of ppl thru a DivX install... and I'm assuming you're using Windows 98 or thereabouts. DivX needs to be installed, then you go to the program Group on the Start menu it creates and click the "run me first" thingie, and THEN reboot. After that, all should be well. Be sure to use the DivX 3.11 alpha for Windows, of course. I assure you it's not the file. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The black background in the single pic I posted makes more sense in the vid... you'll see why. You'll also see my junk open end and badly lit box end.
320 pics for the wrench in Blender came out to less than 45 minutes rendering time IIRC.
Anyhoo...
Re- motion blur. I like using it, but thats one place where Blender will take a lot more time to render a single frame... I guess thats the same whereever you go.
*S* and regards,
Jay.
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Yeah, I followed the instructions and it is installed. It just won't play the flic. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
The audio came through fine.
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I like that motion blur effect on the prop! I've been trying to do something like that in standard POV (using while loops with variable transparency on repeating prop blade) but haven't been very successful. Do you know if there is a Linux binary of MegaPOV available?
On the subject of a dedicated aircraft modeling forum, such a beast already exists, although I have not made much use of it yet (since I've had such expert help here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ). Head over to Targetware's UBB (http://forums.targetware.net/) to check it out. It's dedicated to making models for use in TargetWare's upcoming sim, but there should be some crazy airplane modeling nuts there eager to help others.
I don't use ICQ, but if somebody wants to e-mail me, my address is sancho at jump dot net. Keep in mind the extent of my 3d modeling experience is as old as this thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-19-2001).]
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That's weird Voss, I'd swear you were using a Mac if it won't play. The Run Me First thing is the step most people miss, followed by the reboot. You could try downloading again to see if the vid is messed up, OR you could use Netscape to open the vid directly and try playing thru something other than WinMediaPlayer. I'd suggest GDivX, freeware DivX vidplayer. For that matter, right click-> properties and then Preview the movie from the WinShell.
I'm getting lots of confirms from other people that the vid is fine... What's your Win OS?
Jay
[This message has been edited by Jay_76 (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Hi guys!
Here are a couple of threads, that if you don't already have them, you will probably enjoy them.
Luft '46 art (http://visi.net/~djohnson/luftart.html)
Japanese '46 art (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/green/wave/airplan-rist.html)
SD
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Good links sundog!!
*S* and regards,
Jay.
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Sancho, as far as I know the latest greatest version (0.7), for Linux, can be found at:
http://perso.enst.fr/~jberger/mpov/mpov.html (http://perso.enst.fr/~jberger/mpov/mpov.html)
This is Jerome Berger's build. You can also download the source and compile it yourself, as long as you are comfortable with make files. It's not hard, really. I'll be going to a hot swap system soon, and running both Win 98 and Linux. For now I'm stuck with Windows.
Jay, I'll try a few things later, including the GDivX player. Nothing's worked yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
As far as the Modelling forum goes, I would rather have one here. No reason to have anyone heading over to another UBB when we all like AH. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
For those interested, the best place to learn about Pov (aside from 1-on-1's with me) is to head over to Pov's newsgroup (news.povray.org). You could literally spend a year over there and never read all of the information available. You could also get lost and never find your way back! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I usually stick to the povray.unofficial.patches forum, but I have also been known to frequent povray.binaries.images and povray.binaries.animations as this is where you see all the talent at work. p.b.i sees about a thousand posts per week during peak usage, and keeping up on things can get out of hand. It would be *much* better if we could keep things here where discussions would remain on the topic of modelling, textures, and the use of specific utilities. If a forum ever does appear here, I can just about guarantee we'll see a few new users pop over to help and play too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway, I've got a ton of errands to run today, as well as install a new HD. See ya'll later, and keep on tracing! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hey everyone. I had to do a format on this hard drive today, so I haven't had time for my wrench. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'll see if I can't get it up here tommorow though.
BTW, just for the record, Blender can also do that motion blur. Iv'e used it plenty on helicoptors. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And Sancho, Your planes look great! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Melvil
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Now I can swap hard drives like they were floppies! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Can blender also do media? Photons work with it? I'll check it out as soon as I get Linux on this soon to be empty drive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I hear Linux is also the fastest version of Pov. If that's true I am going to be very happy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Anyone have any interesting models? I'm working on a 1:1 detail Mustang. It's a lot of work for something I just play with, but I figure I'll have the best Mustang going (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Maybe I'll figure out a way to do this faster for the next model. Sancho has built a great Jug, so I was going to do a P-38 next (in more detail).
I already have the rudimentary beginnings for a lot of planes, but nothing like what I would call detail. The P-51D is the exception there. I was going to do the 109 G-10 in detail as well, but I think I'll finish the four most prevalent planes first.
The P-51D, of course, then the P-38, the P-47 (may not repeat Sancho's work), and the PBY Catalina. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And pilots, anyone good with Poser? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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After you invest all of this artistic work can it be skinned to the AH planes?
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$795 for Rhino sweet jesus!
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Originally posted by Tyro48:
$795 for Rhino sweet jesus!
Actually, you can download the demo for free. The only limitation is that you have something like 25 saves and then the program won't let you save any more. If you're conservative, you can get a lot of work out of those 25 saves. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There's also a deal for students whereby you can get the program for $150 which isn't so bad if you or a relative is in school. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
I don't know if these skins could be used on HTC's planes. POV uses different texturing methods than 3ds-max, which I believe they use. I sure do wish they'd add more skins or allow user-made skins. My hope is that if we ever do get a P-47M, we'll have it in blue 63rd FS camo though.
I'm just trying to make the best P-47 I can make though; this isn't necessarily for a game. I don't like playing with paint and glue to make real models, so I do it on my computer. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Damn! Sancho, that's beautiful work! Absolutely beautiful!
Hey - need some Hamilton Standard logos for that prop? (not sure the P-47 had Ham Std's or not...) And P&W logo? (again, not sure if it ran P&W or not) Images link to hi-res gif files.
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/hamstd.jpg) (http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/hamstd.gif)
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pwlogo.jpg) (http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pwlogo.gif)
Sorry Voss - AT&T was acting freaky and apparently lost the uploads. I logged in again and not a trace so pushed em up again. Seems to work now.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Hey. Iv'e been busy, so I am going to stop working on my wrench and leave it how it is. Theres alot of small flaws, and things that I would normmaly do, but I need to be doing other stuff...
Anyways, as if anyone cares, here it is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.homestead.com/Melvil/Files/wrenchmid.jpg)
-Melvil
[This message has been edited by Melvil (edited 02-18-2001).]
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Tyro48: After you invest all of this artistic work can it be skinned to the AH planes?
That's up to HTC, Tyro. Yes, anything we make could be skinned to the planes, though the image palettes would probably have to be optimized. I have only toyed around with this in air sims. I did do a lot of work on Quake* skins and even re-textured a few entire levels (mostly deathmatch stuff).
Tyro48: $795 for Rhino sweet jesus!
You think that's bad check out 3DS sometime.
Sancho: I'm just trying to make the best P-47 I can make though; this isn't necessarily for a game. I don't like playing with paint and glue to make real models, so I do it on my computer.
I hear you, Brother.
PakRat: Images link to hi-res gif files.
Bummer, I get a 404 Error on those links and I wanted a look. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Melvil: Anyways, as if anyone cares, here it is.
I care. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Blender looks very capable. I wish you could stay to tell us more! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Thanks for what you did offer, though. It is obvious to me that Blender is fully capable of creating excellent skins.
I would like to know if it can do shadows and other things, though. I'll look into it more. Thanks!
Voss
* We're kind of backwards here in Arkansas. We still play Quake. Best FPS ever written in my opinion. (Classic Quake that is.) I still get a good 300 frags a day to keep up.
<edited a few typos I made typing while chatting on ICQ>
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Here is another link you guys may be interested in. I really enjoy it, and they generally have a lot of good hints/tips/ etc in it. It always has a CD with Demos/Freeware/Tutorials/Textures, etc.
3D World (http://www.3dworldmag.com)
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'
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Originally posted by PakRat:
Hey - need some Hamilton Standard logos for that prop? (not sure the P-47 had Ham Std's or not...) And P&W logo? (again, not sure if it ran P&W or not) Images link to hi-res gif files.
Yes the jug used Hamilton Standard Hydromatic Propellers... also Curtiss Electric on earlier models. Mine is showing the Hamilton Standard model.
And the engine of the P-47 is the Pratt & Whitney R-2800. The logo you posted goes on the front side of the reduction gear casing just under the propeller shaft. It is visible from the outside of the plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for posting these. I will use them both!! Where'd you get these?
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Here's a pic of the prop with Hamilton Standard logo applied. Click the pic for larger view.
(http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/pix/hamilton_standard_s.jpg) (http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/pix/hamilton_standard.jpg)
<edit> Oops! Just realized that the logo goes lengthwise along the prop. I had it too big and place perpendicular to the prop blade. Was an easy fix in POV (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Glad to help out! That P-47 is looking good too! Don't know how detailed you want to get, but there is also yellow stencil lettering on the blade root with mil specs, S/N, etc. I don't have any close-up pictures or I could give you the details.
I made the Hamilton Standard and Pratt & Whitney logos up a while back for a guy that does t-shirts and such (http://www.americanpilot.com). Got a bunch of different oval designs of AT-6's, B-17's, etc. too. The originals are in CorelDRAW and I just exported to hi-res gif format for posting.
Did a number of other designs for him too. The ones I really like are HERE (http://www.americanpilot.com/nostalgc.htm). It's all flat 2-D art, but it was fun to do. Copied from old 20's and 30's luggage tags.
My claim to graphics fame. Actually did the whole website for this guy while in graduate school. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Nice stuff!! Did you do the MIDI too?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-19-2001).]
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More category logos:
<deleted for bandwidth> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Melvil: Anyways, as if anyone cares, here it is.
I care. Blender looks very capable. I wish you could stay to tell us more! Thanks for what you did offer, though.
It is obvious to me that Blender is fully capable of creating excellent skins.
I would like to know if it can do shadows and other things, though. I'll look into it more. Thanks!
It does shadows very well... you'll see more in my vid than you will in Melvil's still. I'll post another still from the vid that shows a shadow, or perhaps another view of my model.
Anyhoo...
Jay.
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It's almost time we started another thread. This one is going to blobk up my modem connect soon.
I have your animation now, Jay (as I posted in response to your DivX note), so I've seen it. I agree that Blender works well enough to make skins for video games, but I don't think it will ever replace Pov for me. I am just starting off in the Linux world now, so I am sure I will have a few questons for you about Blender and other routines. I am having a friend burn a CD for me, with a lot of graphic routines for Linux on it, so any pertinent links would be greatly appreciated.
(sorry for typos. I had surgery on my left hand last week and I'm typing with one hand now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) )
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Sancho, that prop looks fantastic! Great work! I can't wait to see you use some blur on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by PakRat:
Glad to help out! That P-47 is looking good too! Don't know how detailed you want to get, but there is also yellow stencil lettering on the blade root with mil specs, S/N, etc. I don't have any close-up pictures or I could give you the details.
Man, I've gone through my entire library... the Squadron Signal P47 walkaround didn't have it, nor did the Warren Bodie P47 book. I did get a picture of the stenciling on a Curtiss Electric propeller blade, but not the Hamilton Standard. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Anybody have a good close up picture of the stenciled text on Hamilton Standard prop blade? Widewing? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hmm... actually it may be helpful to know which propeller the M actually had. I just assumed it would be the Hamilton Standard. I suppose I'll end up modeling both in the end for future birds, but for this one, I need to do some more homework.
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 02-19-2001).]
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The Prop is looking Good! Nice work Sancho!
Granted I am new at this, so I don't know how productive I will be, but do you think we should start a 'Model/Texture' repository of some of our work so we don't end up building-parts twice? i.e.- something we could share. Such as Props/Engines/Gunsites, etc? Sort of model common parts for anyone to use? Just an idea. If we get our boards here, we could even put links/files etc. up for reference, so, if someone started working on a part and needed some more resources, we could pool those as well to get the most accurate models possible. Once my Scanner gets hooked up I have quite a large repository of aviation books/magazines etc.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'
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Damn - I've got the Life Magazine issue that has the P-47 on the cover with the pilot with his hand on the inside of the cowl. But it's a Curtiss prop and not Hamilton Standard.
However, if you are going to do the Curtiss later, here is the info:
DWG. NO. 714-162-12
SER. NO. 64837 (assume is different for each blade)
ANGLE LOW 30
ANGLE HIGH 60
4-27-43 (there appears to be a space in front of the 4)
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/prop.jpg)
From a Hamilton Standard on a P-51D:
It's in Stencil and the top line looks to be twice the length of the Ham. Std. Logo with them spaced 1/3 the text height apart. Text is yellow.
DWG. NO. 6323A-24
SCH. NO. 469134
This is obviously a restored '51 and it's on a poster or I'd scan it and post it.
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 02-19-2001).]
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According to "Picture History of WWII American Aircraft Production", 15,683 P-47s were built.
The 5-Grand, 10-Grand, and 15-Grand milestone aircraft all ran Curtiss props (very visible in the pictures). But I did find a picture of one with a Hamilton Standard - it was a late model D.
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/prop2.jpg)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...