Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Gattsu250 on September 25, 2009, 10:59:49 AM
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What should do a KI84 vs Spit16? I want know tactics, tricks and maneuvers to be a good pilot of KI and not use it how a spit with more WEP...
Thx for help :aok
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In your subject you say SpitXVI, and in the text you say Spit1. Which is it?
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In your subject you say SpitXVI, and in the text you say Spit1. Which is it?
sorry i forget the Six, Spit16
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Against the XVI you want to get the fight slow, slower than the XVI's optimal speed for turn rate. The Ki-84 has wonderful low speed characteristics when you get the flaps out, but getting slow enough to use them can be tricky. The clipped wings of the XVI do have a penalty, which is sub-optimal handling near stall speed, so that's where you want to go. Getting into a scissors fight should usually yield a good result for the Ki-84 pilot.
Otherwise, you are out-rolled, out-turned, out-climbed, out-dived, etc.
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The clipped wings of the XVI do have a penalty, which is sub-optimal handling near stall speed, so that's where you want to go. .
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well for having flown the spit9 a while, the difference between clipped wings and "normal" wings is not that obvious, that's one of my concerns about the spit16 flight modelling. On topic I do believe that the Ki84 is a faster and better E retaining plane, but that's an uneducated opinion.
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well for having flown the spit9 a while, the difference between clipped wings and "normal" wings is not that obvious, that's one of my concerns about the spit16 flight modelling. On topic I do believe that the Ki84 is a faster and better E retaining plane, but that's an uneducated opinion.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=86&p2=78&pw=2>ype=0)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=86&p2=78&pw=2>ype=2)
Since the Ki-84 only has 3 minutes of WEP, I'd say they balance out pretty well for speed at low altitude.
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damn 4600ft/min and the thing is not perked....but that's another subject :D
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Spit 16 v Ki-84 can be a great fight.
I suggest just TnBing and having fun with it.
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What should do a KI84 vs Spit16? I want know tactics, tricks and maneuvers to be a good pilot of KI and not use it how a spit with more WEP...
Thx for help :aok
The Ki84 actually has "less" WEP (in the short haul), it just has a faster WEP recharge rate than the 16.
As others have said, during an OTD fight with a 16, you're not going to find any advantages other than sustained turn. Luckily, most 16 pilots are quite awful and will play into your game. But don't be satisfied by a mere ~200mph luftberry, get it as slow, as quickly, as you can. The 84 and 16 will have similiar sustained turn without flaps, but once you can pop your flaps out (very slow in the 84, less than 150mph if I can recall), you'll have no difficulty turning inside.
One other item of note, someone mentioned earlier that the Ki84 is a better E retaining plane. I don't have the data to back myself up, but I can almost certainly say that is false. Spit 16's retain E almost as well as P-51's, from what I've seen, not to mention that the sturdiness of their airframe allows much more E to be built up, whereas the Ki84 starts to threaten to lose parts near 400mph indicated. Overall, E retention is at the very least equal, but I would bet that it's in favour of the Spit 16.
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<<<<trying to get some good KI flying for you to see :salute
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This depends a lot on what we mean by energy retention. Do we mean pure kinetic energy? Or do we mean kinetic energy retention + low induced drag in a high g turn + high thrust/weigh ratio? The latter 3 part meaning is how AH players often use the word because they want to refer not only to kinetic energy retention, but also the ability to hold speed through a hard turn, and the ability to transfer speed into a lot of altitude when necessary. This meaning of energy retention makes it very difficult to measure, and it obscures the many independent components of aircraft performance that go into what we see.
However, pure kinetic energy retention is easy to measure with a power-off, prop-feathered glide. I've tested this for both the Ki-84 and the XVI for deceleration from 400-150mph. Their times were:
Ki-84la: 79.91s
SpitXVI: 65.92s
So the Ki-84 does hold kinetic energy better than the Spit XVI. But as trotter mentioned, the Ki-84 begins to lose parts at speeds where you've built up a big bank of kinetic energy.
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get it as slow, as quickly, as you can.
Yup. Spit 16 is a lovely plane, but it's a handful at any speed, particularly at low speed where the Frank really shines.
- oldman
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First notch of flaps on the Ki-84 comes out at about 169mph, second at about 150mph.
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Also keep in mind the toughness (against enemy fire) of the Ki-84. Spitfire parts like to pop off if you so much as sneeze on them from 800yds out, particularly the wings. The Frank can take a pretty good beating before she'll go down, so your opponent needs to plan on a good tracking shot to finish you off.
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well for having flown the spit9 a while, the difference between clipped wings and "normal" wings is not that obvious, that's one of my concerns about the spit16 flight modelling. On topic I do believe that the Ki84 is a faster and better E retaining plane, but that's an uneducated opinion.
You wouldn't notice much difference between clipped and full span Spit wings at the alts the fights are at in AH. It would be more noticable at higher altitudes
As for Ki vs Spits. Getting the Spits in a turn fight would be the way to go I'd think. The RAF guys in the CBI were told not to turn with any of the Japanese birds in their Spit 8s. Those that did, really struggled.
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KI84 owns in rolling scissors, only thing that might be better in that fight is a Hog or a well flown K4 that uses its climb very well. SunsFan posted a good film of me and him fighting in Ki84s on the POTW site but it doesnt want to work here. Heres the link for it in our furoms http://www.pigsonthewing.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2130 :salute
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Yup. Spit 16 is a lovely plane, but it's a handful at any speed, particularly at low speed where the Frank really shines.
- oldman
:huh
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:huh
not everyone knows how easy mode a spit 16 is :aok
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:huh
Duh. I meant spit 14.
Finally dawned on me that this whole thread was about the Spit 16. Getting older faster, some day I'll learn to read Roman numerals.
Thanks Karaya. I'll just slink away into my hole now.
- oldman