Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on October 04, 2009, 09:57:37 AM
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Should I be disappointed with all of the people complaining about the new ENY values? All of a sudden, people who believe ENY should be based on plane performance and not on popularity are coming out of the woodwork. Where were they on all the occasions when BnZs was ripped on for making the same argument? On other occasions, defenders of popularity ENY have admitted that if the P-40B were 20% of the aircraft flown tomorrow, it ought to be perked. Where were these popularity ENY detractors then? On other occasions, I showed how with Zscores you can compare dislike performance figures, e.g. alt and speed, in order to have a quantifiable standard for setting ENY values. The response was underwhelming.
It's time to understand that these ENY changes are the result of aircraft popularity, not performance. If you don't like it, then I feel no sympathy because it was the silence of the people complaining now that made arguing for performance ENY seem so quixotic in the past. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised at the inconsistency demonstrated here. After all, the inconsistency as been nothing if not consistent. :P
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It's time to understand that these ENY changes are the result of aircraft popularity, not performance.
Are they? All I have seen is mucho speculation by players, but no official statement.
If it was based just on "popularity", the TA 152 would end up with ENY 25 or so...
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Are they? All I have seen is mucho speculation by players, but no official statement.
If it was based just on "popularity", the TA 152 would end up with ENY 25 or so...
I see the Ta-152 ENY raising as incremental. First it was perked, then it was unperked, then it was raised from 5 to 10. Give it more time and it might go to 15.
Additionally, popularity is half of what is supposed to be "unbalancing," and arena balance is the end point of ENY/Perks.
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I thought it was based on a bit of both with a judgement call thrown in.
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perk the P-40 !11 :cry
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I can control the problem with ENY by changing countries if I want or changing arenas. That isnt the problem as I see it. The problem is that once a country gets on a roll entire squads will jump countries for the perks or so they can be on the side that has the upper hand and then the next thing you know ENY starts to kick in and your favorite ride is not availalble.
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Personally I would be more disappointed that so many people take the game sooo seriously as to become apoplectic over such a minor change in ENY value as going from an 8 to a 5.
But that's just me.
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what I have done to solve ENY problems for myself is to have a selection of rides that I enjoy flying that fit different numbers of ENY presented . I have found this to be fun and in no way am I closed off due to this problem . I like Spit16 , F4U-1 , P-51B , P-40 very enjoyable . ENY does not affect me . HTC I am sure did what thay thought neccessary and I'm fine with it .
Nutte :salute
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Personally I would be more disappointed that so many people take the game sooo seriously as to become apoplectic over such a minor change in ENY value as going from an 8 to a 5.
It's not as minor as it may seem at first. It almost cuts the perks earned in the 51 down by half (to be exact: down to 62.5%).
(Not that I have any serious problem with that, for collecting perks I'm using ENY 30 planes anyway ;) )
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It's not as minor as it may seem at first. It almost cuts the perks earned in the 51 down by half (to be exact: down to 62.5%).
(Not that I have any serious problem with that, for collecting perks I'm using ENY 30 planes anyway ;) )
Yes, but in all honesty, does it really make a whopping difference if you get 0,25 perks instead 0,4 for killing a ENY 20 plane. Sure, you need about 240 such kills instead of 150 to earn a Tempest, but both numbers are way beyond the patience level of your average AH player...they rather earn perks by "winning teh war". For seriously earning perks, as you said, one should aim for ENY 20+ birds anyway.
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Yes, but in all honesty, does it really make a whopping difference if you get 0,25 perks instead 0,4 for killing a ENY 20 plane. Sure, you need about 240 such kills instead of 150 to earn a Tempest, but both numbers are way beyond the patience level of your average AH player...they rather earn perks by "winning teh war". For seriously earning perks, as you said, one should aim for ENY 20+ birds anyway.
What about getting 5 perks instead of 10 for killing several low ENY planes with a P-51D? Still sound like ENY is a non-issue?
ENY has two purposes. To "handicap" the high numbers side in the war, and to encourage people to fly rides which can do less by offering them more perks. You can't really base it on anything *but* plane capability.
And lets look at the problem in reverse. You will now get more points for killing P-51s with La7s-a plane which owns the P-51D in every performance metric at the most typical MA combat alts-than you will get for the reverse. It was perverse enough enough when killing an La7 with a N-Jug and killing an N-Jug with an La7 earned you the same points.
The P-51D is just not good enough to be a 5 ENY plane in the low-alt MAs. Its performance doesn't justify it, nor does its k/d.
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I see the Ta-152 ENY raising as incremental. First it was perked, then it was unperked, then it was raised from 5 to 10. Give it more time and it might go to 15.
Additionally, popularity is half of what is supposed to be "unbalancing," and arena balance is the end point of ENY/Perks.
I am watching this issue with interest Anax. I think the main thing holding the Ta-152 back in popularity is lack of name recognition, and more important, the fact that a primary source of information for new player's, Soda's performance evaluations, rather unfairly trashes the plane. (By the same token, he praises the P-51D beyond what it deserves IMO.) But despite its lack of popularity it is a plane with near P-51 speed and range, incredible firepower, the best 30MM ammo duration of any single-engine fighter, and incredible E-retention under Gs. There is nothing to keep anyone from bnz'ing with it with as much success as with many other popular planes, and it will definetely be interesting to see if the perk price is raised is rised simply to try to change people's preferences for planes they've heard of vrs. ones they haven't.
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ENY is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I happen to fly a bird that is not affected either way. As for perks I rarely use them.
Really ENY just affects those that refuse to even up sides and those who fly perked birds.
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I think the P-51D is a solid 5 ENY aircraft, and I fly it probably half of my sorties. Certainly if the N Jug is an 8 ENY, the Pony needs to be a 5.
Regardless, I know you won't agree, and that's ok. I think all of the adjustments make sense.
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ENY is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I happen to fly a bird that is not affected either way. As for perks I rarely use them.
Really ENY just affects those that refuse to even up sides and those who fly perked birds.
Just because you choose to fly birds that are rarely effected by ENY does not mean it is a non-issue. Especially because under the current system several VERY competitive birds have inordinately high ENY values.
You can argue that in a perfect world people would switch to keep the numbers even, but this does not happen. There are some understandable reasons for this besides chess piece loyalty (inertia, people's squads+friends typically fly that side so they want to stay, etc.), and in any case, in arenas with hundreds of people such side evening would be very difficult to coordinate. So ENY's functions there is needed, with all its imperfections.
I hardly ever take up a perk bird myself, but there are lots of people who do. Lets face it, the majority of players can't earn perk points hand-over-fist practically at will with most any plane, unlike most people posting on this forum. So relating a plane's ENY value to what it can actually do would be vital to fairness even if numbers were always even.
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Certainly if the N Jug is an 8 ENY, the Pony needs to be a 5.
But N Jug is 10 ENY, not 8 ;)
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I think the P-51D is a solid 5 ENY aircraft, and I fly it probably half of my sorties. Certainly if the N Jug is an 8 ENY, the Pony needs to be a 5.
Regardless, I know you won't agree, and that's ok. I think all of the adjustments make sense.
It is not compared to the other 5 ENY aircraft. Lusche can put his figures for 2008 up again. Of the four most popular aircraft, (P-51, Spit17, La7, N1K) the P-51D had the lowest K/D. K/D usually tracks pretty well with speed...yet the vastly slower Spit and N1K had a higher K/D than the Mustang. It would be nice if we had kills/time figure for the various airplane models, I'm sure all 3 of the other big four would vastly exceed the Pony in that metric. The Pony's K/D was lower than that of the Typhoon and 190 A-5 for goodness sakes. And ENY of 5 for the Pony makes absolutely no sense when when the La7's ENY is 8. Hell, an ENY of 5 for the Spit16 makes no sense when the La7's ENY is 8, because the Spit16 does not have the speed to disengage at will from the typical MA crowd, OR chase down the fast but unmaneuverable LW E-fighters for easy kills like the La7 does. The La7 out-runs everything unperked down low where it counts in the MA, and out-turns everything near it in the speed league (it can kill a poorly flown Spit easily), so its ENY does not make sense.
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Lusche can put his figures for 2008 up again. Of the four most popular aircraft, (P-51, Spit17, La7, N1K) the P-51D had the lowest K/D.
Since mid 2008, N1K and La-7 usage has dropped considerably. Last time I checked (2-3 months ago), La-7 ended up #9 in "usage" (K+D).
I'm still somewhat unhappy about Skuzzy removing the # of sorties column from the stats :P
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Friends can be made on all sides...... squads can change sides easily too.
So it is only an issue for those who freely choose not to switch. So in fact it is like choosing a green car then complaining because you don't like green.
I've found that folks with few perks often have few because they burn them as soon as they can get that new toy. Look at it more as an account. Feed it for a rainy day. Don't let those perks burn a hole in your pocket.
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Since mid 2008, N1K and La-7 usage has dropped considerably. Last time I checked (2-3 months ago), La-7 ended up #9 in "usage" (K+D).
I'm still somewhat unhappy about Skuzzy removing the # of sorties column from the stats :P
I've flown her since then. She is still a monster and I like the new canopy *better*. Thinner frames and more vis in most directions. Flown into the right situations, it could possibly the best non-perker for getting up, killing, and getting down in short order for the best combination of k/d and k/t for score-potatoing. Of course, vets will continue to fly it almost always *only* for desperate base defense, so arena-wide figures will likely never reflect this potential.
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Friends can be made on all sides...... squads can change sides easily too.
So it is only an issue for those who freely choose not to switch. So in fact it is like choosing a green car then complaining because you don't like green.
I've found that folks with few perks often have few because they burn them as soon as they can get that new toy. Look at it more as an account. Feed it for a rainy day. Don't let those perks burn a hole in your pocket.
There aren't any perk planes I really like.
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It is not compared to the other 5 ENY aircraft.
Hypothetically speaking, put the best pilot you can think of for each airframe, and have them join a typical MA fight. The guy in the Pony-D will be the most successful. While the N1K2 and Spit 16 are awesome in close, the LA-7 and P-51D really pace all 4 aircraft. In my opinion, the P-51D is probably the best overall non-perk fighter in the game, with the LA-7 being a relative close second. Speed, endurance, credible firepower, utility--it has it all. When flown to its strengths, it can basically engage or disengage at any in-game altitude at will. Combined with its popularity, I say the 5 ENY is pretty well deserved.
If I take up a Spit 16, and fly against players that are foolish enough to stay in my performance envelope, I'll school them. The problem is that my "box" is rather small. The N1K2's is even smaller. The LA-7 has a huge envelope as long as it has fuel, and even though the Pony-D has a smaller envelope, it can "do it over Berlin", so-to-speak.
Perhaps I'll try flying just these 4 for a tour and see if my outlook changes.
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Hypothetically speaking, put the best pilot you can think of for each airframe, and have them join a typical MA fight. The guy in the Pony-D will be the most successful. While the N1K2 and Spit 16 are awesome in close, the LA-7 and P-51D really pace all 4 aircraft. In my opinion, the P-51D is probably the best overall non-perk fighter in the game, with the LA-7 being a relative close second. Speed, endurance, credible firepower, utility--it has it all. When flown to its strengths, it can basically engage or disengage at any in-game altitude at will. Combined with its popularity, I say the 5 ENY is pretty well deserved.
If I take up a Spit 16, and fly against players that are foolish enough to stay in my performance envelope, I'll school them. The problem is that my "box" is rather small. The N1K2's is even smaller. The LA-7 has a huge envelope as long as it has fuel, and even though the Pony-D has a smaller envelope, it can "do it over Berlin", so-to-speak.
Perhaps I'll try flying just these 4 for a tour and see if my outlook changes.
And yet of the four most popular planes the Pony's k/d was lowest, despite the fact we all know it is the most likely to be flown in the most conservative manner of all four. Another issue is k/t...sure the Pony can live to fight another day better than the Spit, flown conservatively, but the Spit can actually *kill* much easier than the Pony against more A/C types from more positions, i.e. energy advantage OR equality OR disadvantage. Fighter score is NOT just made up of k/d, and this is a good thing...if all this fuel and speed is used by the pony to fly around for a long time getting a lucky kill seldom, I don't think that nessecarily makes it a "superior" MA craft even if it doesn't die very often either.
About the La...if you wanted to rack up a good score with an La, you'd just fly it to the right kinds of base defense (not too desperate, hopefully some vulnerable aircraft like 110 "misshuns" coming in) and learn to conserve fuel. By dropping the RPMs on the La7 to 2200 or so, the time on full internal goes up to about 30 minutes, and with the La still performing roughly as well as a P-47D does at low alts in climb and top speed. And all that engine power is still available at the touch of the WEP button.
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I will chime in that the pony is probably being flown by many new or newer folks to the game. It is a very well known bird.
While the newer person may fly it closer to how it should be flown at the start, he/she will get in a hurry and find himself with low E very soon. This will effect k/d across the board.
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I will chime in that the pony is probably being flown by many new or newer folks to the game. It is a very well known bird.
While the newer person may fly it closer to how it should be flown at the start, he/she will get in a hurry and find himself with low E very soon. This will effect k/d across the board.
The Spitfire is about equally popular with the very new, perhaps more so, because we always advise them to fly Spits. The Spit is very well known in the public. It is also more likely to be used for desperate base defense instead of pick and run.
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It suddenly struck me as very funny that this forum spends a considerable amount of time railing against "pickers and runners", speaking of the inneffectiveness of "bore and zoom", and that it is more or less well known that while speed allows you to choose your fights, maneuverability and thrust/weight are more or less what allow you options for winning them...neither metric being something where the Pony stacks up well vs. most other LW planes. We also have long discussions about how the P-51 is not undermodeled,how its reputation is exaggerated because the Luftwaffe had no vets, no fuel, and no numbers, etc. Yet suddenly when the hated, picking and running, History-channel over-hyped P51 gets its ENY raised, everyone jumps on the bandwagon, even if that means doing something so ludicrous as to call it the best non-perked fighter. At least the damned fool who called for the P-51D to be perked just because he hates all the runners in it was being honest, although that is illogical because the "evil" pick n' runners can just as profitably move to D9s and Typhoons.
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Pick and run is boring. :D
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We also have long discussions about how the P-51 is not undermodeled,how its reputation is exaggerated because the Luftwaffe had no vets, no fuel, and no numbers, etc. Yet suddenly when the hated, picking and running, History-channel over-hyped gets its ENY raised, everyone jumps on the bandwagon, even if that means doing something so ludicrous as to call it the best non-perked fighter.
My previous discussions of the P-51D in no way contradict the opinion I've stated here, and I don't appreciate the "ludicrous" descriptor--I don't typically make irrational arguments on this board do I? I've seen some of those comments in the discussions you allude to, but not from me. I think the engineering of the aircraft was probably some of the best in the war, regardless of platform or powerplant. Just because it doesn't fare well when compared with individual in-game metrics doesn't mean that the sum is a poor aircraft.
Also, I think BnZ (the tactic :)) in-game is smart with some aircraft. Just because some guy in a Hurri II is baiting you on 200 doesn't mean that everyone subscribes to that theory. Is anyone going to criticize a Jug pilot for not turn-fighting a Zero?
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My previous discussions of the P-51D in no way contradict the opinion I've stated here, and I don't appreciate the "ludicrous" descriptor--I don't typically make irrational arguments on this board do I? I've seen some of those comments in the discussions you allude to, but not from me. I think the engineering of the aircraft was probably some of the best in the war, regardless of platform or powerplant. Just because it doesn't fare well when compared with individual in-game metrics doesn't mean that the sum is a poor aircraft.
Also, I think BnZ (the tactic :)) in-game is smart with some aircraft. Just because some guy in a Hurri II is baiting you on 200 doesn't mean that everyone subscribes to that theory. Is anyone going to criticize a Jug pilot for not turn-fighting a Zero?
True but still boring.
You won't really know till you try it though :D
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My previous discussions of the P-51D in no way contradict the opinion I've stated here, and I don't appreciate the "ludicrous" descriptor--I don't typically make irrational arguments on this board do I? I've seen some of those comments in the discussions you allude to, but not from me. I think the engineering of the aircraft was probably some of the best in the war, regardless of platform or powerplant. Just because it doesn't fare well when compared with individual in-game metrics doesn't mean that the sum is a poor aircraft.
I don't have a problem with you, but I *do* consider the idea that the P-51 is the best unperked fighter rather ludicrous.
Poor aircraft? Mediocre is more more like it. It is mediocre by most metrics, has a rather low k/d for an aircraft of its speed, and in my experience has fewer options available to it for ACM than aircraft which have better turning, better e-building properties, and/or less unstable departure traits when slowed down. So...where is the thing that makes it the "best"?
BTW, In R/L I believe the P-51 was the BEST airframe of the war, because you could stick rather less engine in it than one would like for a fighter of its weight, stick enough fuel tankage in it to fly to Germany and back, and it STILL performed very well. You take the same airframe and redesign from the ground up for nothing but performance, adding as much horsepower and removing as much weight as possible, and it would be insane, as the P-51H showed.
Also, I think BnZ (the tactic :)) in-game is smart with some aircraft. Just because some guy in a Hurri II is baiting you on 200 doesn't mean that everyone subscribes to that theory. Is anyone going to criticize a Jug pilot for not turn-fighting a Zero?
I'm not running down doing what you need to do with vs another aircraft. I'm saying the vaunted top speed metric by itself is not the asset for a fighter some think it is, and besides the P-51 is *not* the fastest non-perker.
Lets look at Jug vs. Zero. The Jug can come in with an E advantage and use vertical tactics to try and gain a shot against the Zeke for a certain period of time until the E states inevitably equal. The Jug is not superior to the Zeke in thrust weight, or in E retention under Gs. That means the Jug will always eventually run out of E advantage if the maneuvering goes on long enough, and be very unlikely to build a usable E advantage over a Co-E Zeke or better Zeke, especially in a reasonable period of time. It can try extending abit and then climbing at a speed slightly greater than the Zeke can run level, but this would take a long time to build significant E and the Zeke will probably just climb abit himself instead of running level in a hopeless chase and gradually loosing relative E state. The Jug's best option is to drag and call for a clear.
Now insert the K-4 into the equation in the Jug's place. The K-4 turns better than the Jug, but not so much as to really be an issue when facing something as maneuverable as the Zeke. What gives the Kurt vastly more options is the fact that its thrust/weight means it can hold onto an E advantage longer, perhaps indefinitely, AND build a usable advantage much more quickly. Clearly, fighter for fighter, the K4 can stand on a much more equal footing with the Zeke than the Jug.
Energy tactics are less simple, direct, and intuitive than angles tactics. They exist almost entirely because of the need to fight more maneuverable aircraft or to keep E state as high as possible because of the threat of multiple bandits. If you need to use energy tactics against vastly more maneuverable bandit, it behooves you to have better thrust/weight (so you can hold on to an E advantage longer or BUILD an E advantage over the more maneuverable aircraft), excellent roll rate, and excellent firepower, so you can make the most of fleeting snapshots. The P-51D has mediocre climb, decent roll, and mediocre firepower. That BTW is why I consider the P-47N very close to being the equal of the P-51D...I find its roll rate and firepower (and in bad situations, its slow handling and toughness) very good compensations for the lack of non-WEP performance, both planes being used in essentially the same manner in the MA. I consider the D9 overall probably very slightly the P-51's superior in the MA for similar reasons, even though the D9 is one of the few planes the Pony does indeed tend to "own" in a 1v1 co-e "duel" between equal pilots.
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yes.
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yes.
but not at all surprised ...
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True but still boring.
You won't really know till you try it though :D
I have tried it, but its not relevant to the discussion. Neither is whether or not a certain flying style is boring.
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So...where is the thing that makes it the "best"?
When you decry the performance of the P-51 in-game, you make it sound like any player is lucky to get it off the runway. I'm not going to change your mind anyway, so lets just agree to disagree, as I suggested in the earlier post. :aok
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I have tried it, but its not relevant to the discussion. Neither is whether or not a certain flying style is boring.
Oh, its kind of of relevant. This is a game after all...and it could be argued that a plane which you can engage in a very aggressive, happy-go-lucky manner and get quick kills in could be considered to have the advantage over one in which you must show more caution and discipline.
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When you decry the performance of the P-51 in-game, you make it sound like any player is lucky to get it off the runway. I'm not going to change your mind anyway, so lets just agree to disagree, as I suggested in the earlier post. :aok
I don't think I ever said it was awful, just not ENY 5 material and certainly not the "best" non-perker.
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What about getting 5 perks instead of 10 for killing several low ENY planes with a P-51D? Still sound like ENY is a non-issue?
ENY has two purposes. To "handicap" the high numbers side in the war, and to encourage people to fly rides which can do less by offering them more perks. You can't really base it on anything *but* plane capability.
And lets look at the problem in reverse. You will now get more points for killing P-51s with La7s-a plane which owns the P-51D in every performance metric at the most typical MA combat alts-than you will get for the reverse. It was perverse enough enough when killing an La7 with a N-Jug and killing an N-Jug with an La7 earned you the same points.
The P-51D is just not good enough to be a 5 ENY plane in the low-alt MAs. Its performance doesn't justify it, nor does its k/d.
Yes, earing perks in sub ENY 10 planes is a pointless exercise. It just ain't worth it and I cannot imagine anybody is doing it on purpose. From that point of view, it really does not matter if a certain plane is ENY 5 or 8.
On the P51 vs La7 argument: I really don't see a big issue with that. While the difference in % seems rather big, the actual perks earned are still little. And that is what counts, you pay in perks, not in %.
As for the 51D being worthy of ENY 5 - You only consider A2A. The 51D is vastly superior to the La7 in A2G, much more than the La is superior in A2A. So, ALL things considered, the P51D is a better plane than the La7.
I have not seen La7 porking bases in any manner yet. But you see 51Ds doing that very often. So take its K/D ratio with a grain of salt, it's skewed by base porking deaths.
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...just not ENY 5 material and certainly not the "best" non-perker.
Only a fool fails to recognize that the Spit XVI is the best non-perked plane in the game. Frailty might be its only weakness, but just try to hit one doing that death blossom thing... :P
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not to mention all the inexperienced virtual pilots who have only been exposed to the popular culture, believing that the p-51 was something it was not, and getting their rumps handed to them for operating outside it's envelope. not being experienced enough to get away with that so so much.
the few times i have not had a plane available, (once or twice i think) it just was an opportunity to explore the plane set a bit. i usually approach the games by learning my plane very well so having to switch can be enjoyable for a change of pace.
also being interested in the history of things it is good to remind ourselves that our historic counterparts only spent 1/6th to 1/8th of the war in the plane some seem so loath to spend 20 minutes without.
no offense
++S++
t
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Now I've never particularly agreed with ENY limits. On the defensive end of it. When ENY becomes an issue It really doesnt matter what kind of plane they are coming in "A horde is a horde is a horde"
On the offensive side. If ENY has kicked in it doesnt matter what plane I fly in because the numbers advantage make up for the difference because I know that a horde is a horde is a horde
BUT!
Course you all do realize that if you diversify and learn more then one plane well. You accomplish two things.
You learn how to fly and defeat other planes (even with less uber planes)because you have learned their strengths and weaknesses.
ENY limits matter less because you know how to fly other planes that arent effected by ENY
Hit me with ENY and I have no problems jumping into a 109 F and getting kills in that instead. Thing is I know how to fly the 109f well enough that ENY doesnt matter And unless Im outnumbered. Or the opposing pilot is pretty good. I can hold my own in it against pretty much anything.
Another benefit to learning to fly less uber planes is that when you do go back to flying the uber planes. They are that much easier to fly because you've added another skill set to your repertoire.
Quit wetnursing yourselves with the superduper planes and learn how to fly the planes that require more effort to be successful in. after some initial struggles you will become better overall pilots in the long run.
And when ENY kicks in. Your attitude will bwe more of a "so what" then an "Oh no!"
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ENY doesn't really mean awhole lot folks. :salute
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Quit wetnursing yourselves with the superduper planes and learn how to fly the planes that require more effort to be successful in.
Some planes with low ENY numbers aren't superduper.
Some planes with high ENY numbers are monsters.
P-51D vs 109 K-4 for example.
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Frailty might be its only weakness
Speed? I think its speed is a much bigger handicap than its durability.
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Speed? I think its speed is a much bigger handicap than its durability.
At typical MA alts is about as fast or faster than the F4U-1C, P-47D-40, P-38L, Ki-84. These planes are not considered handicapped in the speed department.
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Compared to an La-7 or P-51D, its slow. None of those other aircraft you listed are barn-burners at sea level.
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Compared to an La-7 or P-51D, its slow. None of those other aircraft you listed are barn-burners at sea level.
I burned a barn by augering into it in a 38L. :D
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ENY doesn't really mean awhole lot folks. :salute
all it means to me, is that sometimes i can't get my 38j.....so i take out the 38g. :aok
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Compared to an La-7 or P-51D, its slow. None of those other aircraft you listed are barn-burners at sea level.
They are in the middle of the pack for speed where MA fighting actually happens. SpitXVI is not "slow", it is a medium-speed aircraft that is stellar by every other measure.
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Some planes with low ENY numbers aren't superduper.
Some planes with high ENY numbers are monsters.
P-51D vs 109 K-4 for example.
Yup, if I fight a co-E 51D in my K4, it's usually a foregone conclusion. A WEP K4 is also faster than a WEP Pony at all altitudes. It also climbs better. And turns better. And accelerates better.
But: Pony retains E better, has better high speed handling, and has much better visibility.
That said, I can typically use Pony's E retention against it, just do a throttle off spiral dive and he will overshoot you, at which point you can throttle up and regain your lost E while in the saddle.