Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Bloody on April 16, 2000, 03:21:00 AM
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HTC, go where no other sim has gone before - roll out the F8F Bearcat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bloody
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Originally posted by Bloody:
HTC, go where no other sim has gone before - roll out the F8F Bearcat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bloody
Only after the Ta152,He162,Go229 and Me262.
Now...you REALLY want to fly your tiny cat vs my Go229? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Do I get a free Komet with that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 04-16-2000).]
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Go229: two prototypes built. C'mon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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But it still is a cool fantasy plane. Just like Bearcat's participation in ww2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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This sim participate in WWII? Dont think so If it flew during WWII it is WWII era period.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Such prototypes flew during ww2 too, Indian. Are you sure you want these buggers in AH ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.innercite.com/~rlmendes/art/gallery/luft46/minis/dioram27.jpg)
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And, to give you an idea of its performance, it was designed for the 1000/1000/1000 LW request, (1000Km range,1000 Km/h Speed/1000Kg bombload). The plane accomplished those requiremets, and it had a nice handling in flight.
It had provision for Mk108 cannons, OR Mk103 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). It had an estimate ceiling of 53000!, provision for bombs, drop tanks...It was estimate that for october-november 1945, Go229 would've entered service in the Luftwaffe (UMMMM What was the in-service date of the bearcat? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
So, yeah, bring the cat...but only along a Go229.
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You Luftwaffles have a rich fantasy life...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Dont care bring em on its wwII era aint it.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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I just wanna try if this UBB code works..
(http://www.skytamer.com/photos/gallery06/08044529.jpg)
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GrinBird
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Okay,
Before you consider the F8F, The F7F Tigercat should be considered FIRST for the following reasons:
a (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) 1st marine Unit to receive F7F-1s was VMF 911 in early to mid 1944(war still going on). So unlike the F8F, there was an active unit that was not doeing any testing but actually training to fly in combat.
b (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) On 24 July the USS ATTU(transport carrier) headed for Guam. the F7F squadron VMF-531 flew via Iwo Jima to Okinawa arriving the day before the end of WWII. Soooo, even though the F7F did not physically get into combat, there were active squadrons. Also, a full squadron did arive on the Pacific front to due battle. I am hoping that Hitech creates the F7F because unlike the Go229 and F8F. There were FULL squadrons ready to due battle..just a littlelate.
c (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Its a kick bellybutton plane! 4200Hp, 455mph, and 4x50s and 4x20s... what could be better!!
HEHE
Gorf
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Originally posted by Gorf:
Also, a full squadron did arive on the Pacific front to due battle. I am hoping that Hitech creates the F7F because unlike the Go229 and F8F. There were FULL squadrons ready to due battle..just a littlelate.
Then, again, LW had a little plane called Me262...that also equipped FULL squadrons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and they SAW combat...and there was another tiny beautiful plane called Arado234...but I dont ask for them because they are jets and jets are unbalancing...again Ta152 wasnt present in great numbers, but saw REAL combat. Do335 was reported by allied planes in flight. I regard it as combat encounters because they ran away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) so there is ANOTHER plane here...Before asking for a F7F start thinking what are you asking for...because the can of worms that you'll open will be HUGE! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-17-2000).]
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No question about the 262. Some 1500 built and saw heavy combat.
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RAM,
Ya your right, suppose I should think twice about asking for the F7F. Hell if that got put into the arena, that would be THE UBBER FIGHTER for a LOOOOONG time. Nothing would be able to compete with it. As for the Me262.. would like to see it but with AH still in its infant stages. I say leave the Jet age out for now untill we get more prop planes in.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Gorf
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Go229... rich fantasy life is correct. The Bearkitty actually was coming off the production lines and had equipped operational squadrons prior to the end of the war.
If we're going to add jets, I would recommend that Pyro and HT not make the same mistake they made in WB. If you had jets you need to probably start with a pair, and you need to segregate them from your main arena in some fashion (have a special jet & prop arena X days a month or something). Personally, I'd want to see all sorts of latewar prop aircraft prior to the jets (and yes, that includes LW stuff like the Ta152, as well as the F8F).
PS - RAM, in this place it's wise to know the answer to any question you ask... the F8F started coming off the production lines in Spring 1945 and two squadrons were operational aboard ships, and steaming their way toward Japan when the Japanese initiated surrender proceedings. Unlike the Germans and Japanese, whose homelands were under attack, the US actually had its pilots undergo formal familiarization with the F8F (and P-51H for what it is worth) prior to the squads going operational. Otherwise both the F8F and P-51H would have engaged the Japanese in combat (the P-51H had also equipped a squadron in the Pacific and had flown combat sorties, but had not encountered any opposition) by the end of the war.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 04-18-2000).]
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Well,
Just a question? Why is it in the response after mine, and other postings of the F7F, that All other planes are mentioned and the F7F is quickly set aside. The F7F was one HELL of a plane, it had SPEED, POWER, FIREPOWER, and manuverablitiy. I also believe it outlived the F8F in active service. Now don't take me wrong, the F8F was a kickass airplane to fly(anybody remeber Aces over the Pacific..Expansion pack). BUT, when ya compared the 2, the only thing the F8F had on the F7F was that it could Turn faster and roll faster. Otherwise the F7F surpassed the F8F.
Just a question. Microsoft Combat simulator has a F7F and a F8F to download and fly. And out of aroun 6 battles with some friends. No matter who was flying what, the F7F came out the winner 7 times out of 10.
2cents.
GORF
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You're kidding me... right?
I would love to fly the F7F, but she is a bomber interceptor, or a ground attack fighter... she is not the WW2 version of an air superiority fighter. The F8F would fly circles around the F7F. The F8F would turn better, has a better roll rate, and less roll inertia (this is a biggie!), outclimbs the F7F, would outperform the F7F in the vertical, offers better SA than the F7F, and almost assuredly offers far more overall maneuverability than the F7F.
The difference in top speeds between the aircraft is about 12 IAS (tho' the Bearcat's max speed is at 19.5K, and the Tigercat's is 21K).
I would seriously question the realism of the MS flight models if the F7F is beating the F8F most of the time.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Galland, Rall, Barkhorn, Bär, Nowotny, Steinhoff, Krupinski, Lützow, Rudorffer...just the most famous of Luftwaffe pilots who flew the 262. All had 100+ and some 200+ victories (one of them 301 victory).
The Me 262 was reality for them.
Can you say that for Meteor or P-80 ? When were they in combat ? Who flew them ? How many victories did they achieve ?
Same with Bearcats and Tigercats. They are just what-if planes, just like P-80 (45 produced before war ended, none saw combat). 280 Meteors produced, shot only V-1s over Britain. 1500 262s (at least 300 in combat) were the reality.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 04-19-2000).]
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I want a P-38J!
hmmm
(walks away) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The Meteor was in squadron service before the Me 262, and they did send them to Europe(Belgium) with 616 Sqn RAF in January 1945. By that time the Luftwaffe was virtually non-existant in that part of Europe, so they would have had little chance to see any air combat. They did have allied fighters attacking them though, thinking they were Me 262's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The Me 262 and Meteor should be brought in together, if ever. And if the Me 262 engine "quirks" were modelled and it needed a long runway then it wouldn't dominate at all I think.
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262 wouldn't dominate arena as many think. Icons are the first to blame. The other reasons are fuel multiplier and MK 108s (poor choice for fighter work). Drop tanks are necessary if one wants to grab enough alt before engaging.
However, it would be most survivable plane if flown carefully, able to dive away from anything. It would also catch diving and fleeing P51s, Hogs and Typhoons.
It would be dangerous buff hunter (even better with R4Ms or even BK 5), but only an opportunist in anti fighter role. Any pilot with moderate SA would dodge 262 passes easily. However, it might be fun to dive through furballs - any ping you land will be fatal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Caught low and slow, it would probably die easier than a C-47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 04-19-2000).]
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F8F bearcat has my personal vote ; it's a little marvel of a plane.
snag
213 Squadron RAF 'Ceylon'
PS. WRT 262 I'm interested in those two figures :
1. how many german aces were killed by the 262 program
2. what was the lifetime of the 262 engine
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Personally, I would rather not have any of the jets, except maybe for special events, and then very rarely. But if we did, Hristo is correct, the Me262 would be the leader of the pack.
The Bearcat is not the uber plane many think it would be. Good but not Uber.
- Max Speed 428 at 18,800ft
- Initial Climb at 3,230 ft/min
- Range 1,105 mls
- Empty Weight 7,323lbs Loaded Weight 12,740lbs
- Empty Wingloading 30.01 lbs/sq ft, Loaded Wingloading 52.20lbs/sq ft.
- Armament x4 .50 cal (wingmounted)
It has excellent speed, good climb, good range. But has fairly high wingloading and is very weakly armed. And yes the late model Bearcats had x4 20mm, but it would be a real squeeze to consider the early Bearcats as a "WWII" plane, let alone the late model versions.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by snag:
1. how many german aces were killed by the 262 program
2. what was the lifetime of the 262 engine
1. The most famous German ace killed in 262 was Walter Nowotny (258 victories). There were also others, but I don't know the number.
2. Surely longer than an anverage AH sortie (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 04-19-2000).]
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Verm, those climb numbers look a bit off on the F8F to me. The F8F was one of the fastest climbing prop aircraft ever built, and its acceleration was pretty hot also.
Hristo, I respect your point about the aircraft not seeing "combat" in WW2 (although I've heard that the P80 saw combat in Italy). However, I submit that you're being far too close-minded for a flight sim that essentially allows all of us to live out the fantasy of being a fighter pilot.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Well, Snake Eyes, decide first : do I have a rich fantasy life (as you said before), or am I just too close-minded for a sim that offers us a fantasy of WW2 pilot (like you said in your last post) ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
OK, I will admit it: Go 229 is fantasy. P-80 and Ubercats are slightly less. Meteor is closer to realism. Me 262 is realism.
Looking forward to meet you in Arena, o-o-o, instead just on this board.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 04-19-2000).]
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I've seen published climb rates for the F8F at 6,100fpm, and that was the early version.
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Unless they model the P-51H or F8F here, I don't foresee much that would convert me over from WB at this point in time. I flew in the Beta, but dropped out when things went pay.
Now I just lurk around here to see what's up, and hassle Funked... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I'm a bit disappointed, as I did not get my answers from you LW experts ... I had to search for the answer to question 2 : average lifetime of Me262 engine is 12 hours(interestingly some engines would blow up at takeoff).
Still waiting for answer 1 ...
snag
213 Squadron RAF
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i dinae wanna see no kerosene burnin monstrosity ripping up a good prop fight any time soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I wouldn't mind seeing a P-38J though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mmmmhmhmhmmmm PBJ yum
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"There are no born fighter pilots. Some are a little better than others, thats about it. But I would say time, training, training, training and more training are the key... to any success." -Francis Gabreski
Citabria
=357th Pony Express=
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Ok guys you stirred my curiousity. From a quick check of my available resources.
Complete Book of Fighters (F8F-1): Initial Climb at 3,230 ft/min
Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft(F8F-1B): Initial Climb at 4,570 ft/min
Janes Encyclopedia of Aviation (F8F-2): SL to 10,000ft in 92 seconds (avg 6,518 ft/min).
The difference between the -1 and the -2 is about 400hp, but that still doesn't account for the difference between the two numbers.
What do you guys have in your books? I'm really curious now.
The -2 model, with 2,500hp, comes out to a powerloading of about 5 lbs/hp, and to average 6,500ft/min up to 10,000ft is amazing to me, even with that kind of power.
Could the later two figures be from tests conducted with 150 Octane fuel?
It would be my initial guess, but I could be wrong. But it looks really similar to the delta numbers I have seen for the F4U-4 with differences in 100 octane and 150 octane fuel
Any other guess's?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I think the 4570 is the correct figure.
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Hristo, I'm the one who said you have a rich fantasy life. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SnakeEyes is my evil twin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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United States Naval Fighters of World War II, Michael O'Leary:
F8F-1
- ROC 6,300fpm
- speed 421
- R-2800-22W
- 9,430lbs loaded
The Illustrated History of Fighters, Bill Gunston
F8F-1
- ROC 4,570fpm
- speed 421 @ 19,700 ft
- R-2800-34W of 2,100hp
- 12,947 lbs loaded
The Encyclopedia of U.S. Military Aircraft, Martin W. Bowman
F8F
- ROC 4,570fpm
- speed 421 @ 19,700 ft
- R-2800-34W
- 12,947 lbs loaded
The "92 seconds to 10,000 ft" is a well-known record, but the fuel load is something I don't know about.
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Originally posted by snag:
average lifetime of Me262 engine is 12 hours(interestingly some engines would blow up at takeoff).
12 hours is far more than an AH sortie, even with DTs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But that's another can of worms. I never met a P 51 with malfunctioning guns or Niki losing wings in dives.
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Guy's,
That 94 second climb to 10K was in 1946 with a F8F-1 reportly with a combat load. However early F8F's were armed with only 4 50 cals until until production models incorperated 4 20mils in the F8F-1B. Empty weight in the -1 was 7170lbs and grew to 7,650 in the -2 with max loaded weight growing from 12,947 to 13,460lbs. However initial rate of climb is listed as 6,300fpm in both models. This is truely a monster of an A/C but honestly in a WW2 flight simm what role would this A/C have (Uberdweeb plane)? If you want an arena with the P-51H, F4U-5 or a Sea Fury (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)(<=there is an original idea) then go ahead and add the Bearcat. But not here. The wine factor would be unbearable.
Thanks
F4UDOA
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(http://www.geocities.com/~tomscar/deadface.gif)
I think it`s pretty lame of some people to ask for aircraft that had little or NO impact on WW II,yet when the dedicated LW flyers ask for a plane that SAW combat in high #`s they are shot down quicker than a spitfire in the main arena.
What are you guys so afraid of,that the Luftwaffles might have something to chase your runstangs down with? Like it or not the ME-262 saw combat and was the first competative jet aircraft to see combat. As a LW flyer I`m getting tired of uber allied planes running away when they get beaten by good ACM,I`m all for giving you guys your F8F-hell I would like to see the A-1 Skyraider too,but not if I can`t have something to combat it with.
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(http://members.tripod.com/JG2//images/victory.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
Plane Nutz (http://www.vstore.com/cgi-bin/pagegen/vstorehobbies/jg2/page.html?mode=home&file=/page/home/home.spl)
=CO= I./JG2 "Richthofen"
Aces High Instructor Corps
[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 04-20-2000).]
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Stop ur whinin'... you can have the Ta152 and the Do335 fer god's sake!!
Observe the white picket fence of historical absolutists below:
Nice, safe, and fenced in. Also boring, staid, narrowminded, done before, and exclusionary.
I think what annoys me most about this approach, however, is that they are able to fulfill their aircraft interests, but deny the same to others. The, "I don't want it, so you shouldn't have it" approach.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 04-20-2000).]
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 04-20-2000).]
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Thanks, Weazel, you said it the best.
Nothing against late war what-if planes. Both Luftwaffe and Allies had some scary stuff.
However ! 262 does not fall into same priority category as Bearcat, P-80 or even Meteor. It was actually there, while the other three weren't. Also, they don't belong in the same arena. P-80s did not fight 190A-8s. 262s fought P-51s.
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Who`s whining? Go back and read my post again Barney. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Heck I`ll save you the trouble.
I`m all for giving you guys your F8F-hell I would like to see the A-1 Skyraider too,but not if I can`t have something to combat it with.
Snakeyes belched:
The, "I don't want it, so you shouldn't have it" approach.
This is exactly what your doing when you try and keep the ME-262 from being included in Aces High,not to worry though-I seem to recall Pyro saying it would be in the game at some point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Guys why does every thread about potential aircraft, turn into a "Luftwaffe vs. the world", or "us vs them"?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
Its really starting to become very childish.
Here we are trying to discuss an aircraft and twice now it gets sidetracked into the same old crap.
Unfortunately its just like over on AGW, where such trash talk has lead to a really bad feeling between the two groups.
Its to the point now that it doesn't seem to matter what the subject is, or the validity of the point. You guys just go back to the same old tired arguement.
Let it go for Gods sake!!!
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Let it go for Gods sake!!!
Agreed!
There is not much point to ask for Ta 152 while even Fw 190D-9 is not done. There is not much point to ask for F8F while even F6F is not done.
Me 262 was ground breaking plane for it's time and it will surely be modeled in AH. But in environment where we can't regulate it's availability introducing it would be death blow to MA. So there is no point for begging it or proving it should be modeled because it will be, later when it's right time.
I don't want exclusive uber ride for my side or for the opposing side. If I could decide what planes would be modeled next the list would look like this:
Finish off the 1944 set:
P-47D
Fw 190D-9 (variant, easy to do)
Fw 190F/G-8 (variant, easy to do)
Go to 1945 set:
Spitfire XIV (variant, easy to do)
Tempest
Go back to mid war 1942-43:
P-38F (variant, easy to do)
Fw 190A-5 (variant, easy to do)
Il-2
Mustang Mk I (variant, easy to do)
Go back to early war 1940-41:
Spitfire I (variant, easy to do)
Bf 109E-4 (variant, easy to do)
Bf 110C-4
P-39
F4F
A6M
And last, go to "fantasy" or "prize" set:
Me 262
Ta 152 (variant, easy to do)
Meteor
P-51H (variant, easy to do)
P-47M
F8F
(Sorry for exclusion of most japanese or russian equipment, I don't have enought knowledge about them. And some introduction years may be subject to controversy.)
But as you can see, uber planes come last in my list. First the rest of the late war should be finished. Then it's time to head back to mid and early war. I haven't included bombers at all, of course some of them should be modeled too, but I think they require more work they are lower on my priority list.
Of course, without RPS or separate arena(s), early and mid war planes will not be flown at all.
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
jochen
JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)
I want to believe! Fw 190F-8 / G-8 / A-5 to Aces High!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Actually, my comment is that we need to properly playbalance/segregate jets if we add them to any game.
I've accepted that these games will probably have jets. However, I'm observant enough to see the problems that WB's jet day causes, or the unrestricted availability of ME262s in the HA.
PS - It ain't LW vs Allies here IMO... I'd love to fly the Ta152 or Do335 just as much as the F8F (well, nearly as much). This is between those who argue for narrow historial focus, and those who want the ability expansively be able to simulate history, as well as simulating histories that nearly occurred.
PPS - My apologies if I mistook your remark, Weazel.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I believe more is almost always better. Where I draw the line is when you have a plane that is so overpowering it makes flying anything else useless.
I fly the lower-end planes. A lot. I don't mind at all against the current planes, and possibly even against some of the the even hotter planes that saw action.
Against jets? Unless there was a serious restriction put on their usage, you would see the current usable plane selection drop to perhaps 5 planes, and that would be too bad.
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Snake - which one of the 37 335s built would you like to fly? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Let's bring in the jets but lets go full realism - blowing up engines, fires, crashes "just because they didn't know enough about this'n'that when they built this thing". Without realism the whole thing "I want this plane" is just a daft show off exercise.
How many 262s were built? Now divide that by 35,000 109s and lets have them in the arena - this would show top all 262 fans the actual impact this plane had during WW2. Don't get me wrong - 262 is leap forward in aviation development and all that on top of being a very pretty plane (unlike the whole lot of the early jets) but it just did not have a chance to prove itself.
Plus: c'mon people, this is supposed to be fun. 262 was not a fun plane to fly with poor acceleration/manoeuverability but they didn't build them for fun. Any sim has to have a balance of reality and fun hence 262 IMHO is not a good idea...
As for F8F - I saw it at Duxford, it's ugly but it radiated power and performance - they flew it with a SeaFury and it walked all over Hawker... It was faster, it zoomed vertically from the ground level for what looked like bleeding miles (I'd say 5-6K at least) at 300-odd mph (4,750fpm my a**!!!) it was an ultimate prop driven fighter and it clearly demonstrated just that. It's a summary of American experience with WW2 fighters but it surely is no WW2 plane, so let's leave it out and get the fun back into AH, shall we?
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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The F8F was coming off the production lines in March 1945, and the only thing that prevented it from seeing combat was the fact that America wasn't desparate. I don't know 'bout you folks, but if it's designed, tested, manufactured, and equipping squadrons during WW2, I'd tend to say that it is a WW2-era aircraft.
In any case, I knew it was only a matter of time before the Numbers & Impact Crowd (TM) showed up here to stifle doing anything fun or fantastic.
The point that bugs me (both in WB and now here, apparently) is that the Numbers & Impact crowd gives no merit to the desires of those of us who want F8Fs, Ta152s, etc. We understand the desire of those who want Beaufighters, Hawks, and Defiants... we might not agree about the prioritization, but we'd acknowledge the desire (and we don't demand that these aircraft are consigned to the dustbin of being "Last"). That the reverse understanding isn't forthcoming is what chaps my ass.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Close enough ? http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/wrg0238.jpg (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/wrg0238.jpg)
Me-410/b-17
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 04-21-2000).]
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Just because people don't agree doesn't mean opinions are disrespected.
The planes being proposed here are way above the performance bands of earlier types. It isn't a matter of adding these types, but its resultant removal of the rest of the list.
I'm all for adding anything anything that adds to play. I would relate my experience in DoA was similar to this topic. The Sopwith Camel, historically a great dogfighter, was tweaked to the point of being vastly superior to anything else in the plane set in any area you chose. BnZ, TnB, damage, firepower, it was the plane to fly. And for the most part (and people) that's all people flew. If you think the Spitfire of WB was bad, the Camel was that times ten. Easily 85% of the arena at any given time was in a Sopwith. I do not wish to see this happen to AH.
Sorry that you have your feelings hurt and all, but I just can't see adding an F8F to this plane set (and my argument has nothing to do with numbers). Of course you don't mind if anyone flies early war; how could that impact your play? The reverse cannot be said.
In the end the line must be drawn somewhere. Seeing endless streams of little blue rockets buzzing around the arena is neither fun nor fantastic to me. I feel the inclusion of such a plane would be a restriction.
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I would contend that a P-51D or B is going to be far more competitive with a P-51H or F8F than a Spit I or V is with a FW-190A4.
Uber-plane-ism is a relative thing. Compared with a P-36 the Spitfire and bf109 are uberplanes. Compared with the Spit V, the 190 is an uberplane. Compared with the 110, the P-51 is an uberplane. Compared with the A6M3, the F6F is an uberplane.
Does anyone seriously think that AH is going to model a Spit I and toss it into the same arena with an 109G10 or P-51D? Right now you've got a 1944 planeset, and the majority of these aircraft would be able to at least fly in the same arena with a F8F. They might be at a disadvantage, but that disadvantage is probably less than some of the ones I've already mentioned.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Stick it in. The jets; the F8F; the F7F; the lavochkins; the stormoviks; the stukas the nakajima bipes; p40's; Komets; TA152's; Hortens, P51H's; Mustang B/C's with Malcom hoods, Mustang I's and II's; Arado's... B29's, Marauders, PBY's and PBMS and TBM's. Why mess around with just dribs and drabs???
And ground resources.. mein gott; zee bridges!! Veee must protect zee bridges!!!
Lets have all of em. At once. Just fer a week. Or two. And believe me; we'll all have a ball. Or most of us. The rest will squeak ta high heaven. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hehhehhehheee... mayhem.
Then we can do Korea next. Muahahhahaaa.
F86F vs Mig 17 anyone??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fact: No matter what they put in; next or last; there's gonna be howling. So stick em all in; one year or time span at a time.
Suggestion: Why not 3 arenas?? Early; middle and late war? Surely the server resources will expand with the customer base, yes?? And wouldn't flyin in the the early war arena be a pleasure after playin tag with jets fer a coupla hours in late war arena??
Somethin fer everybody... just think BIGGER.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang (see what dreck I can come up with when the servers are down??)
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Yeah - lets just push AH into the Korean era, that way we can have all the 1945+ props and early jets...sounds good, except for all the whining! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
EG:
Jet fighter pilot: Waah! My .50's suck! The Mig's cannon are 1 ping killers! The props keep going HO with me! Mig pilots are alt monkeys flying at 50,000ft!
Prop fighter pilot: Waah! All the jets won't turn with me! Then they complain when I HO them with my 4x20mm!
Bomber pilot: Waah! Even when I climb my B-29 to 40,000ft the jets still kill me easily!
ETC... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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votes with hang.
Hawker Hunter!
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Sounds like Juzz has it right to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Why do you say Spitfire XIV and Tempest are 1945 planes when they started operations in 1944?
And why do you say the Bearcat is faster than the Sea Fury when the Fury can do 460mph, much faster than the Bearcat?
I would like the Spitfire XIV because it is faster than the Bearcat, and has better wingload, and has better hp loading than the Bearcat.
If I had a Spitfire XIV I may be capable of killing other planes, as long as they are not SPitfire XIV's to. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Walrus (edited 04-21-2000).]
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If I had a Spitfire XIV I may be capable of killing other planes, as long as they are not SPitfire XIV's to.
Keep re-reading this line to yourself until it becomes clear. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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And if I had a F-15, I could kill TONS of you guys... as long as you didn't have one too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Jochen it is funny that you put the Fw 190D-9 earlier than the the Spit XIV and Tempest V which were shooting down planes 6 months before the dora was delivered to units. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
And if I had a F-15, I could kill TONS of you guys... as long as you didn't have one too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I wonder what would happen if you buzzed a Spit XIV in a F-15 at mach 2.3? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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I wonder what would happen if you buzzed a Spit XIV in a F-15 at maI wonder what would happen if you buzzed a Spit XIV in a F-15 at mach 2.3?
Thornton's tea and crumpets would be all over his lap and cockpit floor. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Then, he'd be on the radio to report a UFO. hehe
Bloody
| | |AirWolves| | |
[This message has been edited by Bloody (edited 04-22-2000).]
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You mean with one of these.
(http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/4396/Wishlist2.jpg)
Great escort fighter arent they.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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lol, Indian.
Call me crazy, but I think I'd still take the prop, anyday. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bloody
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Yea prop would be fun but the ride in an F15 would be the greatest. It goes to 20k in seconds with a roll out of less then 1000ft, Ive seen it done many times fun to watch. Love them props though. Radials are best great sounds.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Yeah, I agree, if you add the F8F you might as well just put in F-15s.
*cough* roadkill! *cough* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by indian:
Yea prop would be fun but the ride in an F15 would be the greatest. It goes to 20k in seconds with a roll out of less then 1000ft, Ive seen it done many times fun to watch. Love them props though. Radials are best great sounds.
Makes my heart go pitty patter.
I often visit Kingsley Field in Southern Oregon. The ANG flies there almost everyday Mostly F-15's, with an occasional F-16 or F-18 squad in town.
I love to watch those vertical 15k climbs, waiting for the pop as the A/B shuts down at the top roll out.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Mino while I was in the Army I worked out of Langely Airforce Base and saw that Climb out evry tuesday and thursday, it was to 20k and started on the 1000ft marker of the runway and was airborne before the 2000ft marker. It went to 20 in 20 seconds. (so I was told) I 15 pilot was dating our companies secretary and we tried to get him to talk, got him drunk at company picnic and he said the plane went mach 2.5 plus and was leaning on the plus side. Never saw someone who could think when drunk.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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I know that this is behind the rest of the thread and it seems to have developed into a "I want an F-15" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) thingy but I would like to continue something from above, or at least put my input on it...
I am giving up on this game. I have never played an Online flight sim before and have great fun with AH.
I have also followed the BB's as I *thought* that it was a great community. I had read about people squeaking about WB's BB's and how it had become a name calling fest.
However I feel that Hristo's comments on peoples choices of aircraft fit into the latter category of "name calling".
Anything that anybody suggests he degrades completely. All he wants is the Me 262. And that's all he's going to wine about. Everybody else is wrong, the Me 262 is the best. Well if you honestly think that Hristo, go to WB, that's all I can say. I cannot believe that you will not even take anybody else's comments into consideration.
I quit. I have had enough of his comments towards some of my posts and towards other peoples post.
Rufus - Over and out. For good.
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Took you long time to figure it out ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now seriously, I admired 262 since I was a kid, some 15-20 yrs ago. Back in the time when I thought 190 would outturn Spitfire, P-51 would outturn both and 262 would outturn any plane of the era. That plane just has the right looks for me - mean and beautiful, all in same airframe. Much the same like F4U or P 51 is attractive for an American kid. And admit it, Rufus, it is one of the best looking planes ever built.
Even though I found a great plane in 109, I would really like to fly the 262. Why ? Not because I need an uberplane to piss everyone off (well, maybe from time to time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). In fact, 262 won't be so easy to do well in, IMO. Sure one can dive away from anything, but shooting prop planes down and survving is not that easy. However, I want to feel how it was to take an early jet against all those Allied planes 262 faced. In scenarios especially, if possible. Why this has no right to be modeled in a sim ? It certainly should have more priority than Bearcat, for example, which really just wasn't there. And it really annoys me when someone puts 262 in the same basket with Bearcat, Ta 152 or P-80. They belong to fantasy arena, but not 262.
To be quite frank, I think 262 wouldn't fit me the way 109 does. I will surely miss that acceleration, climb and low speed handling.
Rufus, I remember you didn't get my joke of Brit planes being boring. Don't let it happen here too.
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Yeah, I agree, if you add the F8F you might as well just put in F-15s.
*cough* roadkill! *cough*
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SnakeEyes
Now now, Snakeyes don't get all upset (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
That wasn't what I meant. I was laughing at the post by the other guy, saying essentially "If you give me a better airplane than everyone else, I will get lots of kills".
And that was my smart aleck way of saying "Well... DUH!".
So (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 04-24-2000).]
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What is everyone who hates the bearcat a fraid of. The Jap's fought in planes that could run with the Americans and win Russians fought with junk that should have flown (not all of course). It is the skill of the pilot that makes the difference not the plane. Those of you From WB that keep saying it didnt fight dont model it need to grow up. Aces High is a different sim not WB let it do something different. It is after all a great game.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Hehe, come on Verm... I smiled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm just tossin' it back the other way. <grin>
A few issues...
1) Hristo - I don't doubt your ernest interest in the 262. The problem isn't whether it flew in the war or not... the problem is gameplay balance. If not properly controlled, the 262 would substantially disrupt the arena. If you don't believe me, fly during a Warbirds Jet Day (fly a bomber mission!).
2) The difference in capability between a P-51D (1944 aircraft) and the F8F Bearcat (1945) is far less than that between the Spit V and FW190A4. A good 1944 aircraft can compete with a state-of-the-art 1945 aircraft... the same was not necessarily true earlier in the war.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Funny, RAF fans are told a good 1942 aircraft can compete with a 1945 aircraft. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Alright!!!
Screw the Sea Fury,,, the F8F,, the Dora the Ta15whatever..!!!
I'll TAKE YOU ALL ON!
COME ON HITECH..give me the ULTIMATE UBER PLANE!!
I want my BREWSTER BUFFALO!!!!
MOAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Gorf
"And thank you for shopping at Montgomery Wards" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Gorf (edited 04-24-2000).]
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Gorf th blue light specail is on in the parking lot wher you will find your brewster buffalo mounted on a pedestal for kiddy rides (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just kidding bring on the buffalo i like slow targets.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just had to due it Indian..
Long live the Buffalo!!
Gorf
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Yea gorf the F15 photo was a joke also never wanted it. This is a prop sim game and only prop planes should be in it we dont need a 262 we may not need a F8F but it would be fun to try it. Im not a fraide to see any plane added to the game, I dont have the WB mentality that if it didnt see combat it cant be added. This is a WWII era combat sim, Im willing to bet there aint many out there playing this game that was alive during WWII, much less fight in it. So if you werent there and didnt see combat you shouldnt be able to play, its the same thing as saying a plane didnt see combat so it cant be in it. You will see the mentality of some of the guys out there when they post to these threads the want it thier way and only thier way. I want it all give me every damn plane that was made during WWII and lets go to war!!!!! All chickens check your wings at the door.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Indian,
AGREED with everything you said. And by the way, got a kick on the F15 pic. Also, one thing that is a major pet peeve of mine is when people get on line and say that the ??plane is not modeled correctly. How in the hell due they know! They never flown it. One guy said..WELL I GOT a pilots liscense.. errr Cessnas dont count as a Typhoon. ANyway, I have whined about this topic once BUT I had proof that I was right, My brother Grandpa-inlaw flew with the 23rd Fighter Group in Asia and he flew P-40, P-51, P-38, and P-47. He a big sim buff, and one thing he sasy that the P-47 is the one plane that is almost under modeled in every sim. Said the P-47 was the Cadillac of the skies for comfort and smooth ride of any of the fighters he flew. ANyway,, went WAYYYYY of the subject for this posting. I agree, it would be FUN to fly the F8F in AH. NOt afraid of having any WWII plane put into the arena because its the PILOT not the plane that make you an Ace.
Gorf
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My pet goldfish has had exactly the same effect on the outcome of WW2 as the F8F hence it should be modelled. I do though accept that every other plane who fired a shot or flew a combat mission in WW2 should be modelled before it.
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Yah but did your GoldFish, I assume it was a MkII chinese built model, with the gold finish, see combat???? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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GoldFish is still a prop plane, so it should be there, regardless if it saw combat or not !! At least its aquarium was on the way to frontline when Japan surrendered. And we all know GoldFish pilots were not just rushed into action like those sneaky LW youngsters...no, they were fully trained and well prepared before going into combat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now if only Germans knew that WW2 flight sims would have no 262s, they would have probably concentrated more on Me 209s and such (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 04-26-2000).]
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Unfortunately, Hristo, isn't a Goldfish at all... it's a Pirana and it's going to eat all the Goldfish in the aquarium. Of course, then the only thing left in the tank would be Pirana... but, hey, they can eat each other and console each other with the thought that aquarium pH balance isn't important. And, of course, the idea that other aquarium owners might want more than just Pirana isn't important... so long as all the other fish in the tank are realistically dead, that's all that matters to the Pirana.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS - Anyone want a set of horse blinders to complement their tunnel vision?
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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But Snake Eyes, you are forgetting that life for a Pirana is not all that easy. It sure has a deadly bite, but it has to get close to make it work. Any half-decent fish can deny Pirana the bite all day. And Pirana is no turner. Once it loses its speed in frustration, it will die even to the youngest of GoldFishes. And what about all those gull winged Hispano GoldFishes ? They are more deadly than Piranas, with their bite extending as far as 3 times the bite of a Pirana. No, Pirana can make it s living only against unaware fish, playing turngames at the bottom. Its greatest quality lies in ability to choose when it wants to fight, but hardly more than that.
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You really should try a WB Jet Day or an ETO HA with the 262 enabled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Again, I agree that it should be modeled at some point, but its inclusion has to be bounded by alot more checks and balances than Brand W.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Ok, you can have your Goldfish, you can have your Piranha, you can even have a Barracuda.
I Want the Great White Shark modeled NOW !!!
(http://www.boattalk.com/sharks/images/greatwhite3.jpg)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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WB Jet Day is great! One of the only thing that kept that outdated software on my HD for so long!
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Originally posted by Hristo:
ans knew that WW2 flight sims would have no 262s, they would have probably concentrated more on Me 209s and such (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[/B]
LOL..
they definatly wouldnt have snubed their noses at the hispano factory in france either.. All the crappy french stuff the germans interned and used, and they left the hispano cannons in the crates...
Hitlers asrologist must have told him not to allow the LW to use them or something.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew