Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Citabria on August 13, 2000, 09:55:00 PM
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speed is everything in the AH main arena...
Or is it?
what if you gave up roll rate and dive recovery for speed?
would your plane be more survivable in the environment of the AH main arena?
this is exactly the situation for the P-38J vs the P-38L
The revised beard radiators produced some additional drag, but it was more than adequately compensated for by the improved cooling which made the Allison finally capable of delivering its full rated power at altitude. Consequently, the P-38J was the fastest variant of the entire Lightning series--420 mph at 26,500 feet. Maximum speed at 5000 feet was 369 mph
its actually the fastest lightning being a bit faster than the P-38L and a bit lighter too
P-38J empty wieght: 12,780 lbs
P-38L empty wieght: 14,100 lbs
I think it would be an interesting dynamic to have the P-38J (pre P-38J-25-LO) without the wieght of hydraulically boosted ailerons and dive recovery flaps yet having slightly better top speed performance.
a sort of quid pro quo of sorts with more reasons to have it than just a paint job.
just give it the same standard silver finish the P-38L has except have olive drab anti glare panels instead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
please consider it HTC
I'm very interested in seeing the P-38J for the speed reasons mostly but also for the lack of roll rate and dive recovery flaps.
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btw P-38J 9mph faster at 5k (369vs360) and 6mph faster at 26k (414vs420) than P-38L
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 08-13-2000).]
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It's like A6 vs A8 eh?
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exactly nath!
exactly the dynamic of the J vs L.
the merits of the addition of the P-38J are equal to the addition of the 190a5, 109g2 and 109g6. they all have a trade off of maneuverability, firepower or speed.
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And how about freezing problems in engines with J above 20k? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Will those be modelled also? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Im all for it Citabria! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hehe. Count me in on that (and the A6)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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My guess is that the higher roll rate of the 38L more than compensates for the weight and speed difference. However, I think it would be amusing to hear the reactions of 38J pilots after they compress and lawn dart. Bring it on. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
popeye
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Originally posted by Fishu:
And how about freezing problems in engines with J above 20k? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Will those be modelled also? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
That was the pilot. The engines overheated. The turbos blew up. And the J fixed most of it. Well...some of it.
Gimme a P-38J with Hamiltons. Or a P-38K. Either way.
- Jig
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I think the engines overheated because the coolant froze?
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Originally posted by funked:
I think the engines overheated because the coolant froze?
I thought it was problems with an over lean mixture combined with partialy frozen coolant.
"Here I am at 30k, wallowing in the misery of the day. My toes are frozen purple, falling off, and my damn engine is boiling off." -- the P-38 hate song.
- Jig
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did I mention the p-38J is the fastest?
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psst... -25-LO... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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As far as I know P-38K never went beyond testing, so why should it be modeled?
mx22
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because itz k3wl
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Originally posted by mx22:
As far as I know P-38K never went beyond testing, so why should it be modeled?
mx22
Because it's a freaky-lookin plane with scary preformence (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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yes, bring on the SpitXIV - it's a good looking plane with freaky perfomance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
mx22
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P-38, P-38J, P-38M should be introduced into the game, they are all very different performing versions of the Lightning.
The P-38 had a miserable engine and other problems, but it had an unreal armament (2 .50's , 2 .303's and 1 37mm cannon). Can you say "Ground attack" P-38?
P-38J was the fastest Lightning around but had no dive flaps.
P-38M was a night fighter. A bit slower than the L version, but it had radar and was painted black.
And if eventually every plane in AH gets a "perk" model, the P-38 could have the P-38K, which could get from 0 to 20k in 5 minutes without WEP and was a lot faster than the J model. I hope HTC finds data on it, this plane was extensively tested and was to become the "ultimate" P-38, but the pencilnecks in the War Production offices said they wouldnt do it because it was too expensive to re-tool the factories. whoopee morons! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Excerpt from http://home.att.net/%7EC.C.Jordan/P-38K.html (http://home.att.net/%7EC.C.Jordan/P-38K.html)
"From the very beginning of America’s involvement in World War Two, Lockheed was looking for ways to improve the performance of the P-38. The installation of Rolls Royce XX Merlins was seriously considered. Lockheed went as far as designing the installation package. The advantages of the Merlin engine were numerous. First and foremost was the elimination of the complex turbocharger system. This would also result in a much cleaner engine nacelle. The turbo intercoolers could be removed. That would have allowed for a for more aerodynamic package, closer in shape to that of the original XP-38. Another option was to remove the Prestone radiators and place them under the engine as in the P-40. This location had the additional advantage of reducing the length of the cooling system plumbing. This, in turn, reduced the risk of battle damage to the system. Either option would result in a significant reduction in drag and weight. A further benefit would be gained by the removal of intercooler ducting in the front portion of the outer wings. This volume could be utilized for increased fuel capacity. In fact, that is what was done when the P-38J was designed with revised intercooler cores that eliminated the ducting. This increased internal fuel capacity by 110 gallons.
There were some performance areas that would suffer. While a gain in speed at medium altitudes was expected, the rate of climb would be reduced by as much as 400 feet per minute. Service ceiling would also be reduced as the Packard Merlin XX made considerably less power above 30,000 feet than did the Allison V1710. At the time, no one anticipated the engine and turbocharger problems that developed at high altitude over Europe. Unfortunately, the War Production Board was unwilling to shut down the production line for several months to retool for major design changes required for the engine swap. As a result, the Merlin project was shelved. No P-38 ever flew fitted with Rolls Royce Merlin or Packard engines. The idea of retro-fitting Merlin 61 engines was bantered about 8th Air Force Fighter Command, however there is no evidence that any such conversion ever took place. The prospect of such a modification would have been daunting. This was no simple engine swap, it required large portions of the airframe to be completely redesigned. Stories of Merlin powered Lightnings are, without much doubt, myth.
This, however, did not put an end to seeking greater performance. Lockheed paid close attention to the performance gains achieved with the P-47 when the new "high activity" Hamilton Standard propellers where first fitted on a Republic P-47C in mid 1942 (later, in mid 1943, these propellers were retro-fitted in Britain). The new "paddle" blade prop had significantly increased the rate of climb and acceleration of the "Jug". Lockheed decided that they would install the Hamilton Standard hydraulic propellers on one of the factory test "mules". Thus, was the XP-38K born. The "mule" was an extensively modified P-38E. The original intercoolers were replaced with the newer type introduced on the J model. The initial test results were very encouraging and a P-38G service test airframe (422-81, AFF serial number 42-13558) was selected to be modified.
The new propellers were not the only design changes made in the search for greater performance. This airframe was configured for the Allison V1710F-15 powerplants which were rated at over 1,875 bhp in War Emergency Power (as compared to 1,725 bhp for the V1710F-17 in the P-38L). This was the only P-38 so configured. The potent combination of the engine/propeller promised excellent performance.
There were still other modifications that were necessary. The Hamilton Standard props required a spinner of greater diameter, and the thrust line was slightly higher as well. This in turn, required that new cowlings be manufactured to properly blend the spinners into the engine nacelles. These were hand made and the fit was less than perfect. The new propellers necessitated a change to the reduction gear ratio. The Curtiss Electric props had a normal ratio of 2.00 to 1. The ratio was changed to 2.36 to 1.
Flight tests were conducted from late February through the end of April 1943. Performance was better than hoped for. Maximum speed at critical altitude (29,600 ft) was 432 mph (Military Power). At 40,000 feet, the "K" zipped along at a speed that was 40 mph faster than the current production P-38J could attain at this same height. Maximum speed in War Emergency Power, at critical altitude, was expected to exceed 450 mph. The increase in ceiling was just as remarkable. Flown to 45,000 ft on an extremely hot and humid day, Lockheed engineers predicted a "standard day" service ceiling in excess of 48,000 ft! Improvement of the cowling fit and the elimination of the heavy coat of paint would have gained even more performance. Due to the added efficiency of the new propellers, range was expected to increase by 10 to 15 %. Lockheed appeared to have a world-beater on their hands.
The plane, now designated the P-38K-1-LO was flown to Elgin Field for evaluation by the USAAF. Flown against the P-51B and the P-47D, this Lightning proved to be vastly superior to both in every category of measured performance. What astounded the evaluation team was the incredible rate of climb demonstrated by the P-38K. From a standing start on the runway, the aircraft could take off and climb to 20,000 feet in 5 minutes flat! The "K", fully loaded, had an initial rate of climb of 4,800 fpm in Military Power. In War Emergency Power, over 5,000 fpm was predicted.
In light of this incredible level of performance, you would certainly expect that the Government would be falling all over themselves to quickly get the P-38K into production. Yet, this was not the case. The War Production Board was unwilling to allow a short production suspension in order to get new tooling on line for the required change to the engine cowling. Even when Lockheed promised that the stoppage would only be for 2 or 3 weeks, their request was turned down."
I live 2 blocks away from a Lockheed Martin research complex... one of these days ill go there and see if they have data on the P-38K I could send to HTC.
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Once again this becomes a discussion on perk planes. What are the cretirea for perking the plane? Only 1 P-38K ever existed and you bet if HTC decides to get it into the game, LW and lots of other guys (including me) will start asking for planes that were "produced" in similar quantaties.
I have nothing against P-38s, but I'm against bringing experimental aircraft into the game.
mx22
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The P-38K wasn't an "experimental" plane. It was ready for production and it was throughfully tested. "perk" planes as I understand them would be either planes that never flew in combat or those planes that did fly in combat but would seriously unbalance the game (aka, me-262).
"Only 1 P-38K ever existed" Wrong. There were several planes retrofited into P-38K's, but only one photograph of these craft survives, and thats the one of the prototype. I'll get my butt over to Lockheed Martin next week and try and get something out of them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Like I said, it would be NICE to have the P-38K as the "perk" P-38 IF perks are ever introduced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I want a P-38 powered by two Rolls-Royce Griffon 65 engines. I know that no shuch plane existed, but I want it anyway. Offline only would be fine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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I dont want the p-38K. it was a 1 off prototype that would in no way represent what it was like to fly in a Lightning in ww2 in any theater.
I want the P-38J gosh !@#%ing darnit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I dont want to fight SWOTL or a P-51H/P-47M in a P-38L either...
ah hell, bring em on I'll fight the dweebs in superdweeb rides when perk planes come just the same with Johnny Cash playing in the background...
I Fell in to a burning ring of fire
I went down down down
and the flames went higher
and it burns burns burns
the ring of fire
the ring of fire
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hehehe actually Cit, they'll be doing most of the harmonizing once they realize that owning a porsche does not make you Dale Earnhardt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Amazing how people here concentrate on what they want to squeak about. I said it would be NICE to have it IF perks are ever introduced.
I DO want the P-38J, P-38M and the original P-38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Tac:
Amazing how people here concentrate on what they want to squeak about. I said it would be NICE to have it IF perks are ever introduced.
I DO want the P-38J, P-38M and the original P-38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'd just like to have a P-38J because of it's production run. So it don't have a dive flap...no biggie, least the tail buffet problem was fixed.
I guess when you refer to the "original" P-38 you mean the stripped RAF version? AKA the Atlanta...truely a POS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If anyone wanted a ride that would be there the entire war the P-38 is a good choice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Nah, I think the P-38D had what I want of the early P-38's...
the 37mm cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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p38j natural aluminum w faded olive drab anti glare panels... drool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Citabria:
p38j natural aluminum w faded olive drab anti glare panels... drool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Okay, but at some point we need an olive drab 38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That and the horizontal stablizer needs fixing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
- Jig
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Paint mine purple!
Ill call it Barney!
(and everyone else would shoot at me for it... well, thats nothing new come to think of it...)
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Whats wrong with the horizontal stabilizer?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Heck yeah. Olive drab P-38F.
And also an olive drab P-51B while they're at it.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Whats wrong with the horizontal stabilizer?
A single hit of any type and it rips off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dunno if its the size (combine the width of the stablizer with the elevator it is kinda big)
lack of a spar, lack of the outer tips that extend past the vertical stablizer er what but it sure seems weak.
That or it just gets hit to much (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I swear those ack gunners aim for it when I jabo.
- Jig
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so all you guys want the p-38j too right?
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Why not an earlier G instead, for scenarios?
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Aye.
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/p38j.jpg)
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/p38j1a.jpg)
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/p38j1.jpg)
And I also want this...
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/262.jpg)
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BEAT DOWN POSSE
www.theregulators.org/bdp
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/haha.jpg)
Aces High Scenario Corps
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Nath you're going to hate me, but that's actually a P-38L. Check out the dive flaps outboard of the engines. For some reason the USAF Museum painted the plane as a P-38J-10-LO with a serial number of 42-67855. But it's an L. Museums are strange that way...
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-08-2000).]
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hehe -- I hate the lighting in the USAF museum as well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Hard to get nice pics.
My 2nd time there, don't realy pay much attention to detail on the American planes, mostly just the German ones. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-08-2000).]
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Yeah it is hard to take pictures there. Awesome museum though! Did you get a chance to see the Ju 88? The Me 109G-10 is arguably the best-restored plane in the museum. You could eat your dinner off the engine surfaces.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-08-2000).]
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I saw the Ju 88 my first time, got good pics there since the lighting in the presidential area is much better.