Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: funked on August 15, 2000, 04:39:00 AM
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(http://www.nasm.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/images/focke-wulf_190.JPG) (http://www.nasm.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/focke_190f.htm)
This plane would be a nice addition to the "ground-pounder set" along with the lovely P-47D-25 and the Il-2 or Il-10 that I hope to see eventually. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Joe Baugher has a good writeup (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html#RTFToC16) on this plane, taken primarily from Adam Skupiewski's "Aircraft Monograph: Fw 190A/F/G/S, Part I"
Basically it is an Fw 190A-8 airframe, which should make flight modeling an easy task. Some early examples had special armor but this was generally not fitted due to excessive weight. Outboard MG 151/20 were not fitted but the wing-root cannons and cowl MG's were retained.
Like the A-8, an ETC 501 centerline stores rack was fitted, capable of carrying a 300 liter fuel tank, 250 kg bomb, or 500 kg bomb. An ER4 adapter was commonly used which allowed carriage of 4 x 50 kg bombs on the ETC 501.
The major version was the Fw 190F-8/R1, with 4 hardpoints on the wings. Each wing had two ETC 50 or ETC 71 bomb racks for 50 kg or 70 kg bombs.
Another significant variant was the Fw 190F-8/U1 which had underwing pylons taken from the Bf 110. A 300 liter drop tank or 250 kg bomb could be carried on each wing.
Several types of anti-tank rockets were also used on the Fw 190F-8, which I have detailed HERE. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000488.html)
Information on this type is pretty abundant. The Smithsonian has an immaculately restored example of an F-8 (pictured above) which served with Schlachtgeschwader 2, if one needs a pattern for coloring and details. Jay P. Spenser's "Focke-Wulf Fw 190, Workhorse of the Luftwaffe" explores the history and restoration of that particular plane.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-15-2000).]
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Seconded!
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The voice of reason!
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jochen
Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) Warbirds
T-34/76 to Aces High!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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I don't have a problem with it, but nobody would fly it. It doesn't have enough of a load out and the cannon on it, if they are MG151/20s w/HE ammo, would be useless against any sort of hard target. There's no reason to fly it when we have the F4U-1C available. The Typhoon is a better ground attack aircraft than the Fw190F-8 and look at how many Tiffies we see in the MA. The F4U-1C is just too effective to justify using anything short of a Tempest.
Better armored tanks might change this so that Il-2s and Ju87Gs at least have a reason to exist.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak did you actually read my post?
It carries up to 3 times the ordnance of the standard 190A. As for the cannon, the HE ammo works fine against airfield targets. And Luftwaffe ground attack units used AP ammo for missions against vehicles. Most importantly, the F-8 carried a variety of anti-tank rockets not available on the A models.
Maybe there would be more popular ground attack choices in an arena, but for scenarios it is a very important aircraft - the Luftwaffe's primary ground attack plane in the last 18-24 months of the war.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
I don't have a problem with it, but nobody would fly it
I would fly it...
So would all the LW nuts here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BRING ITTTTT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Course I would fly it. Especialy if they happend to use the 2 X mk103 load out....
I know, I know it was a field trial prototype..
But still....
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How is the deck speed, compared to A-8 ?
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If with more power than A-8 below 1000m, with cowl MGs removed and bubble canopy, it might even be a better fighter than A-8, huh ?
Now, how about that deck speed ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hristo- it didn't have the cowl MG removed- it was a ground pounder and the cowl MG were valuable for strafing.
And don't hold your breath for it to be a fighter- just one of the best ground attack planes of the war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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We're more likely to see AH-64 with radar hellfires than Fw190 groundpounders..
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Taas kalassa vai ?
Toi on kyllä sellainen täky johon nappaa kaikki Sammakoista lähtien.
Enpä paakkaan hymyä ettei mee pilalle.
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PUNT
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THANK YOU FUNKED!
Yehaw, this guy is a GOOD GUY (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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<punt> I'd fly it before a blue turd anyday!
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=view_photo&ID_Community=Raubspics&ID_Topic=2&ID_Message=30)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-25-2001).]
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HMMMMMM The screenshot looks a LOT like the paint scheme I asked for (pictured at the top of the thread). WTG Nate!
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/natedog/f8.jpg)
I think all we need is the swirly deal on the prop spinner. And don't forget the options for centerline ER4 or the /U1 version!
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Ei tullu Kala apassia (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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It's good to get another plane, but the Luftwabblies should have pressed for the Dora first. The F-8 just gives the LW a slightly better ground attack ability. Most targets in AH require either a 500kg bomb, or else they can just be strafed. Many of the cool weapons this plane can carry will be less effective against ground targets than strafing is. What can you use a 50kg bomb for? In the MA, it will always be better to use U.S. or British iron for serious jabo work.
On the other hand, the Dora can bring a 500kg bomb (about 66% of the F-8 max load) to the target faster than the F-8, and then be more of an air to air threat than the F-8 once it has dropped its bomb.
One more thing: if this plane is better in air to air than the A-8 is then the A-8 will see even less use than it already does. If the A-8 is better air to air, then the F-8 may be a hangar queen. MA only of course, I'm not talking about scenarios where we need every plane type we can get. I'm sure we'll get the Dora in the not-to-distant future, but the LW needs it now more than it needs the F-8.
ra
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oops! I forgot the swirl on the prop....... man those guys that restored that plane got the colors all wrong. you would think they would do some more research. They even had the right paint numbers! I compared them to the Lufwaffe color chart, and put them on this plane. enjoy!
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Originally posted by Fishu:
We're more likely to see AH-64 with radar hellfires than Fw190 groundpounders..
Never underestimate the power of a huge chip on your shoulder.
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Ra keep reading bud. Fw 190F-8/U1 max load is 1000 kg. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Nate the Smithsonian's book on the plane (I'm guessing you have it too). It says 70 and 75 on top and 76 on the bottom. Looking at a Luftwaffe color reference I have, your paint job looks closer to those colors than the NASM paint job does in the photos in the book.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by funked:
Ra keep reading bud. Fw 190F-8/U1 max load is 1000 kg. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
and some versions could carry the SC1800
wich,BTW weighted 1800kg...
huhm...and that is...1800x2.2=3760lbs!!!
(woooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooohooooooooooooo!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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RAM that required modifications to the landing gear and special takeoff distance requirements IIRC.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-07-2001).]
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<<<Ra keep reading bud. Fw 190F-8/U1 max load is 1000 kg.>>>
Hmm, William Green's book says the F8/U1 was a 2-seat trainer version which was never built, though his book is not always in agreement with other sources. He also writes that many of the F8/U versions were only experimental and never produced, or only saw a few combat trials. It seems like they just mounted any bomb or rocket they found lying around on the thing and gave it a whirl. I think they even tried dropping pianos on allied tanks at one point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What version of F8 do we have here? We've all seen the drawings of the salad-bar ordinance options this thing had, but what was actually used in combat? My main complaint about the Chog, like many others here, is that only a relative few saw combat so it shouldn't have been modeled because it overshadows the F4U-1D, which was built in large numbers. If a few 190-F8's were modified to carry 1000kg of bombs, IMHO that loadout should not be modeled. There should be some 'standardized' loadout options, like 3x250kg, or 1x500kg and 4x50kg, or 1x500kg and some 20mm cannon pods. It's hard to standardize, though, because this thing had so many field mods. But if we get every type of ord this thing was tested with, it will become a kind of Chog-- why fly the A-8 when you have the F-8 with all the Star Wars options, even though such ord was rarely if ever used in combat?
ra
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F-8/U1 replaced the G-8 in production and was nearly identical. These were mass produced. They generally used either a centerline DT + 2 wing bombs or a centerline bomb + 2 wing DT, but for short range missions the 2 x 250 kg + 1 x 500 kg loadout could be used.
I agree with you about the rare stuff, like the gun pods and rockets. But the high-capacity wing pylons were not a one-off-wonder.
And I'm pretty sure the already overweight 190 is going to be dog with 1000 kg of bombs. So it's not going to be something like the Chog or Typhoon which can haul bellybutton with full ordnance.
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funked:
<SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCH>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
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The colours are very nice. I would say your rlm 70(black green) is more like an rlm71(olive green) but very nice...
he he
cockpit!
cockpit!
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Originally posted by funked:
F-8/U1 replaced the G-8 in production and was nearly identical. These were mass produced. They generally used either a centerline DT + 2 wing bombs or a centerline bomb + 2 wing DT, but for short range missions the 2 x 250 kg + 1 x 500 kg loadout could be used.
SC1000 1000kg bomb (2200lbs) could be carried without great problems. SC1800 needed strengthening of the landing gear IIRC, but SC1000 didnt.
I have a couple of photograps of Fw190F8s carrying 1000kg bombs...but I cant get the friggin scanner to work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Regarding the 190F8/U1, I've been searching the web for more information and all I can find is one site which agrees with Green's book, that it was a trainer version:
http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/fockfw190.html (http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/fockfw190.html)
All other sites which mention it seem to be directly quoting Baugher's site, or maybe he is quoting someone else's.
Either way, I think Green had it right, the 190F8/U1 was a trainer, like the 190A8/U1.
Some versions of the F8 seem pretty awesome, like the R13, a night fighter-bomber with 1500kg external stores. But these 'R' and 'U' versions were built in tiny numbers and saw little or no combat.
The problem with the 190F8 (and this may be why HTC hesitated to add it) is that there is no standard version, so deciding what loadout options to give it was probably tough. Since the F8 is just an improved F1-F3, it was probably designed to carry 1 500kg bomb and 4 50 kg bombs, though many were modified to carry 250kg bombs instead of the 50kg bombs. So a reasonable max loadout would be 3x250kg bombs or 1 500kg and 2 250kg with no cannons. Plus options for rockets or cannon pods. Just my opinion.
ra
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Ra, nobody has said we 'aren't' getting the Dora either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) . After all, notice that F-8 in the pic has the same blown hood as the dora, and the only 'Perk' fighter that has been revealed so far is the Tempest.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'
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Originally posted by Sundog:
and the only 'Perk' fighter that has been revealed so far is the Tempest.
And of course the Dora will follow as perk plane, along P51D, La7 and 109G10. Fair and square.
Ra, R versions were not "built", but modified ON THE FIELD. You can't keep track on the R versions used, because they were field adaptations, not FACTORY (as the U were). Not only that, but remember too that the R versions were not only interchangeables but could Co-exist in the same plane!!
The 500Kg+2x250kg is a configuration I have seen listed many times. And also I?ve seen 1000KG+2x50kg on the wings listed as an usual loadout.
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RAM,
I know R's were mostly field mods, but they were first tested and standardized, then made available as mods. So, many R-versions may have been developed but never used in the field. Listing what ord a particular R could carry does not mean that that ord was actually ever used in combat. As you say, it is impossible to know exactly which field mods were and were not used, and in what numbers. A picture of a 190F8/R? with a 1000kg bomb hanging on it may be a picture of the only one built.
I'm hoping HTC models a 'standard' F8 with 1 500kg and 4 50kg, plus any useful R-mods that were known to be used in large numbers, like the 250kg wing bombs.
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Don't say anything about the F8 not being able to carry 2x250kg and 1x500kg without saying something about the P47 able to carry 10xHVAR AND 2x1000lber in wings.
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Ra, F-8 will be quite effective if it gets ER 4 adapter so it could carry total of 8 50 kg bombs. Also Panzerblitz rails and rockets were commonly used in eastern front and I would think that 16 rockets each capable of destroying a tank could be useful in AH too, maybe not against Ostwind because Panzerblitz had quite short range.
Hopefully HTC has enought time to model those. While the number of Panzerblitz installations are lower than total number of F-8's, I think they should be in AH because in time they presented significant portion of Lufwaffes air to ground capability in eastern front. And I think nobody believes that F-8 will become too popular, even if it has Panzerblitz modeled.
I hope we see something like this as loadout options:
ETC 501 center rack: 4 x 50 kg with ER 4, 1 x 250 kg or 1 x 500 kg
ETC 50 underwing racks: 4 x 50 kg, 1 x 250 kg or 2 x Panzerblitz rails 12 or 16 rockets total.
That would be awesome!
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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ETC 50 can not carry bombs larger than 50kg, hence the designation.
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I know funked... I put those wing 250 kgr's in my list because someone stated on this thread that F-8 could carry 250 kgr's on wings which I wondered a bit but didn't think it too long.
In order to have those 250 kgr's on wings plane would need ETC 503 racks and I don't think they were used in F series, only in G.
The truth is out there...
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Sundog, there is NO way that the Dora-9 will be a perk fighter.As mentioned earlier, if the Dora became a perk fighter, then a/c like the P-51D, Me 109G-10,La-7,F4U-1C (some say N1K2-J) would have to be perk fighters as well.
German pilots relieved it to be at least the equal of the P-51D, and although there are quite a few differences in handling/performance at various alts, an objective observer would regard them as roughly comparable, with the D-9 perhaps having the edge under 22k, and the P-51D having the advantage above that altitude.Why then would it be a perk fighter?
The reason the Tempest is a perk fighter is that it was arguably the Allies best low-med alt fighter, with excellent acceleration, climb, & maneuvrability.Whilst the Typhoon was an excellent air superiority fighter at low alts, the Tempest remedied many of its performance short-falls at higher alts.Although it could not compete with a 109G-10 or K-4 at 'nose-bleed' altitude, at medium alts down, it was almost unbeatable, the only German fighter able to compete at those alts being the Ta 152H, and we know that only very small numbers of those were built, so it's really a moot point.
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Actually I wan't the D9 to be perked for one reason:
Dweebs won't flock to it and ruin its reputation.
and an aircraft being 'perked' doesn't mean its going to cost 1000 points, the D9 will prolly be perked in the 50-100 range.
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Or maybe the Dora will be perked in the 25 to 50 point range or you can wait for 100 perk points for a Ta-152C or Ta-152H (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) .
It would be nice, but maybe they are going to add a version of the Ta-152? It was on the Perk Thread List Pyro posted a few months ago.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'
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I would surmise it would be a perk (relativly cheap perk) because the 109 G10 is allready a match for the P-51 in Aces High. The Dora would quite simply put the LW 1 step above the rest of the planeset in the MA.
Oh- BTW that guess is based on FACT not stats, guesstimates or anecdotes. Hangtime VS Hristo PROVED the G10 in 1v1 was the superior performing plane in AH.
Hell Hang even bent the rules of the ROE to get a jump in but still lost that war. Though he never served his month in a 109 penance.
Whether the Dora is perked or not I could care less really- but please don't start snivelling that you need it to match the P-51D. In AH thats a load of toejam. IMHO it wouldn't hurt a bit to see the Dora, F4U-C, MkXIV and P-51H as low perk point fighters. And RAM- cause I know you will get in here- don't whine about it either, we all know you would happily dump 2 or 3 good sorties in an A5 to fly the Dora for the night. And personally I think your volume is just so high because you don't WANT to accept that the 109 G10 is the P-51's match. That would be like admitting you can't have the best 190 to use at your will in the MA.
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In my mind there is no doubt that the Pony is the best plane of the two *in the arena*.Fuel carried, high speed handling and snap shot possibilities tip the scale.
1 v 1 is another story entirely.
danish
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Thought I'd might drop in with some facts about the 190 Ground Attack version. The facts are from teh Very Exelent Book "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe". ISBN 1-874023-56-5 for those who'd like to take a look at it.
"The 190F and 190G series were essentially ground-attack version of the basic 190A series, the Fw190F ('Panzer Blitz')
armoured assault aircraft appearing in the spring of 1944. Externaly similar to the Fw190A series, but with a bulged hood, this version feutured gun armement reduced to two MG17s and two 20-mm cannon, but had the ability to carry 1000-Kg (2205-Lb) bomb plus two 50-Kg (110-Lb) fragmention bombs.
The most important subvariant was the
Fw190F-8, wich could carry 14 21-cm
(8.27-in) rocket bombs, six 28-cm (11.02-in) rocket-launchers or 24 R4M unguided rockets; Fw190F-8s first joined III(Pz)/KG 200 in the autumn of 1944.
The Fw190G series actually entered operational service long before the Fw190F, the first aircraft being sent
to North Africa, joining SG 2 at Zarsoun, Tunisa, following the 'Torch' landings in November 1942.
The mojority, however, went to the Eastern Front where they played an active part in the Great tank battle og Kursk
in early July 1943. The Fw 190G-1 version, with greatly strengthened undercarrige, could carry a 1800-Kg (3968-lb) bomb.
[img]http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif[\img]
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
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Originally posted by Sundog:
Or maybe the Dora will be perked in the 25 to 50 point range or you can wait for 100 perk points for a Ta-152C or Ta-152H (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
again: sure. And the P51D and 109G10 would cost just the same.
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
I would surmise it would be a perk (relativly cheap perk) because the 109 G10 is allready a match for the P-51 in Aces High. The Dora would quite simply put the LW 1 step above the rest of the planeset in the MA.
HUH?? so now perkies are given because G10 is already a match for the P51?
Hint: as arena plnae: it isnt such a match. 1 vs 1, sure it is. But not on the arena.
And RAM- cause I know you will get in here- don't whine about it either, we all know you would happily dump 2 or 3 good sorties in an A5 to fly the Dora for the night. And personally I think your volume is just so high because you don't WANT to accept that the 109 G10 is the P-51's match. That would be like admitting you can't have the best 190 to use at your will in the MA.
I WONT dump happily ANY minute of paying in A5 to fly a D9 IF YOU DONT HAVE TO DO THE SAME WITH THE La!, the US lovers do the same with the P51, and the 109 lovers dont do it with a G6!
Can you imagine the ENOURMOUS yell that this community would have to hear if the P51D is perked? then WHY should the Fw190D9 have to be?. Because YOU think that 109G10 is a "match" for the P51?. it isnt. Not in the Main arena. You want to let us LW lovers to get bored in a plane that only runs and climbs? because it can do NOTHING else. Can't dive, can't turn, can't follow power dives ,CANT DO ANYTHING that makes a plane a good arena plane!!.
Oh, and look sorrow, I love fw190s. I always have done. I like the A5. I like the A8. But the 190 I've -*always*- loved the most is the Fw190D9, wich is the HISTORICAL MATCH of the P51D. I have read a lot of good (and bad) things about the 109G10 and K4 but NONE (and I repeat NONE) of them regard it as the Mustang's equal.
So STFU, you have already a match for the P51, is called Yak9U. You want La7 perked aswell, isnt it? of course you do, so get your La5 or Yak9 and get the perkies to fly your PERK La7.
no? You dont agree?
then let me fly my dora and shut up.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-09-2001).]
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Agree with Ram here, the G10 really isn't a good arena plane. Just as for real it takes an experienced pilot to fly it successfull with many kills and RTB. 1 Vs 1 it can take most planes if used in the right way. In speeds above 400Mph it's allmost impossible to turn and roll wich makes it hard to get kills. It's fast and climbs good, poor armement compared to other planes (except the Yak wich has the same but less ammo).
The G10, P51, and the Lovely Dora 9 shouldn't be perked in my opinion.
Speed of P51 is 436 while the speed of the Dora is 426. D9 is most likely better up high though.
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"