Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: fdiron on August 16, 2000, 04:53:00 AM
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Which of these tanks would win in a head to head, non maneuvering 1000m duel? I've heard that the Panther has slightly better penetration than the Tiger, but I know the Tiger could deflect 76mm, 85mm and even 90mm AP shells with ease.
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Yet another topic you could beat to death. Some would say "Tiger would murder that Panther!" while others..."Naa, Panther hands down". Me? I say it entirely depends on who sees who first. If the Panther lands a good shot or two, scratch one Tiger. OTOH if the Tiger spots the Panther first, get a tow truck for the Panther. It could go either way.
To expand on your question a bit:
Tiger and Panther, facing each other at a range of exactly 1,000 meters. Who would die first when the call "GO" is made? Panther. No doubts. Tiger has superior armor, so the Panther would have to land a lucky shot to kill it.
Flakbait
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Who will win a Il2-F4U1-C headon?
Who will win a F15-F16 Headon?
Who will win a Kongo-Renown "Headon"? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Well, the one who hits first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
then is just the same in your example (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tiger and Panther, facing each other at a range of exactly 1,000 meters. Who would die first when the call "GO" is made? Panther. No doubts. Tiger has superior armor, so the Panther would have to land a lucky shot to kill it.
In Medieval ages the contest between armor vs Weapon used to be won by the weapon as long as it was tough enough.
In WWII happened just the same, if you have a "sword" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) good enough then you will win the contest...and the High-velocity 75mm gun on the panther was one of the finest AT guns in WWII...
so,again...the one who hits first.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-16-2000).]
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RAM: 2x20mm ShVAKs + 2 0.30 cals MGs vs. 4x20mm Hispanos? Hmmm... Lemme think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (IL2 vs F4U1C)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
RAM: 2x20mm ShVAKs + 2 0.30 cals MGs vs. 4x20mm Hispanos? Hmmm... Lemme think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (IL2 vs F4U1C)
On early versions...
If I dont recall bad the last versions of Il2 had 23mm guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by fdiron:
Which of these tanks would win in a head to head, non maneuvering 1000m duel? I've heard that the Panther has slightly better penetration than the Tiger, but I know the Tiger could deflect 76mm, 85mm and even 90mm AP shells with ease.
Let me make sure I have the criteria straight..
face to face, 1000m, non-manuvering battle?
They'd both die. Panther would kill the Tiger slightly quicker because of the greater 75mm velocity.
Panther is a smaller target, has a better gun with more velocity, and thicker armor plating on the front.
Tiger has a lower stance, with mediocre gun, and flat armor.
At 1000m, however, the first one to get a shot off is going to be the winner. Both guns could kill almost anything at this range.
I'd bet my money on the Panther tho, because of better gun laying, more room in the turrent for the loader, and quicker cycling rate with the smaller shells. When it comes to HTH close-range tank battles, the gunner's first shot, and from that point on, the loader determines who wins.
At 1000m whoever gets the first shot off is going to win.
- Jig
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If both hit, the panther is most likey to survive.
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did they both used an 88mm or 75mm?
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 08-16-2000).]
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Originally posted by Citabria:
they both used an 88mm which had a trajectory that was so flat they didnt even have to elevate the gun for long range shots
?!?
Panther had a long 75mm gun, not 88mm.
The Panther II would have been fitted with an 88mm, but the standard had the 75mm.
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thx RAM i just fired up combat mission demo and sure enough the panther has 75mm.
guess the hollywood idea of every gun the germans have being an 88mm strikes again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Il-2's armament changed as time went by but it's most common armament for guns was :
Il-2 Type 3 Armaments [standard]:
2x 23mm VYa cannons w/300 rounds per gun
2x 7.62mm ShKAS machine guns w/750 rounds per gun
1x 12.7mm UBT machine gun w/250 rounds
So considering the Il-2 had a construction style where everything possible was solid and the plane and motor were encased in armor.. and that those 23 mm had pnetration of 400mm of armor at 500 yds or so... and that even once they got close the Ultra ShKAS MG's had a fire rate close to 3,000 rpm (NOT a typo..) and the 12.7mm was a browning on steroids with even HIGHER velocity...
An Il-2 in an HO with an F4U-c would quickly = 1 very well cooked, punctured and roasted chicken of the sea. The odds are highly against the F4U even knocking on the Il-2 hard enough to damage it before those 23mm blow a new pee pee hole through the whole plane and pilot included.
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
2x 7.62mm ShKAS machine guns w/750 rounds per gun
That was the rear firing armament wasnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dont see how will change it the HO outcome (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Still ,4 hispanos vs 2 VYa...hummm..can go to either side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(BTW Renown-Kongo contest is IMO won by Kongo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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It is my personal opinion that the the Pzkpfw V (Panther with a 75mm L/70 gun) would easily beat the Pzkpfw VI (Tiger with a 88mm L/56 gun) in a 1000 meter dual. Although both guns can penetrate almost the same armor at 1000 meters (100 to 110mm approx with standard APC rounds) the Panther had the benefit of sloping armor, unlike the slab sided, boxy Tiger (don't get me wrong, both of these machines look totally bad-ass.) The Panther had roughly 110mm of effective frontal armor, taking into account the slope of the armor. The Tiger had to rely on sheer thickness, in this case, roughly 100mm of frontal armor with almost no sloping at all. Sloping of the armor also helped to deflect a shot due to the fact that the round was hitting at an angle instead of square on.
The Panther's gun also had a higher muzzle velocity, 925m/sec with standard APCBC (Armor Piercing Capped, Ballistic Capped, and could penetrate roughly 111mm of armor at 1000 meters) and 1,120m/sec with APCR (Armor Piercing Composite Rigid, which could penetrate 149mm of armor at 1000 meters.)
The Tiger's main gun could achieve 773m/sec with standard APCBC (and also penetrate roughly 100mm of armor at 1000 meters) and 930m/sec with APCR (which could penetrate 138mm of armor at 1000 meters). Which brings another point to my post. What kind of ammo are we gonna use?
All of these figures are penetration of a target with approx. 30 degrees of slope in the armor surface. Due to the longer barrel of the 75mm L/70 gun, it achieved much higher muzzle velocity than the 88mm L/56 gun. More muzzle velocity=more penetration overall.
Mobility is also a big factor here. The Panther could achieve 55KPH on the road (30 off-road) while the Tiger could manage 42KPH on the road (15 off-road, due to being woefully underpowered for its weight.) The Panther also had an overall advantage when it came to ground pressure (.88 kg/cm2) with its wide tracks (not to mention it weighed almost 13 tons less!) compared to the 1.05 kg/cm2 for the Tiger and its wide tracks. What does all this mean? Less ground pressure means more mobility in snow, mud, and other adverse battlefield conditions. With all that said, and it is a breathfull, the Panther can count on getting into a better firing position faster than the Tiger can.
All of these figures come from 3 game manuals (I do cite other peoples work where its applicable) Panzer Elite, Panzer Commander, and Across the Rhine. These are the Historical Documents, mind you, not the gameplay manuals.
There is also quite a difference between the 85mm and 90mm weapons (or even the 122mm gun employed on the IS/2) the allies employed compared to the 75mm and 88mm weapons the Germans employed. Generally speaking, the German guns were more effective, because they were higher quality. At first glance, anyone could say the 122mm gun could take an 88mm eqipped tank, but studies actually showed that due to higher quality achieved by the Germans in 88mm gun, it was a much more effective weapon than the 122mm gun.
So there's the facts and there's my opinion. Panthers ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!
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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat! Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!
[This message has been edited by Mattibaby80 (edited 08-16-2000).]
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I am sorry, you are all wrong. The correct answer is that the Tiger would win. HAHAHA
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Neg Ram, ShKAS were forward firing, wing mounted MGs. 12.7mm (0.50 cal) was for defense. And you're right about VYa23s - 200g shell at 900m/s? Hispanos wouldn't stand a chance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Sorrow - ShKAS was indeed the fastest firing single-barrel MG ever used in combat. Designed in 1932(!!!) it fired standard 7.62mm 9.6g bullets at a rate of 1,800rpm (not 3,000) (muzzle velocity 825m/s or 2,705fps) and weighed just 10kgs/22lbs...
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Not enough data;
nose to nose or at angle? (panther has faster traverse)
crew quality?
what ammo? (that's just nitpicking)
In truth, I think they already answered this one at APG in 46-47, the answer was the one that fired first.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Well in case of the Tiger-Panther stand-off I'd say that the panther would come out slightly better but that changes if you take the later enhanced tigers (Late Tiger E) which had extra armour and some minor gun updates, the front armour became even thicker on this model so I'd say that the Tiger might have an slight advantage although it still lags behind a bit in the penetration tables. By the way, german tank veterans often prefer the tiger despite it being more cumbersome and underpowered. The allied soldiers feared the tiger more generally also. Maybe because of the myths around the 88?
Bies
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Oh Jeez, if I only had a rearview mirror!
Bies
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Originally posted by YankeeStation:
Well in case of the Tiger-Panther stand-off I'd say that the panther would come out slightly better but that changes if you take the later enhanced tigers (Late Tiger E) which had extra armour and some minor gun updates, the front armour became even thicker on this model so I'd say that the Tiger might have an slight advantage although it still lags behind a bit in the penetration tables. By the way, german tank veterans often prefer the tiger despite it being more cumbersome and underpowered. The allied soldiers feared the tiger more generally also. Maybe because of the myths around the 88?
Bies
Nope. It was the Myth of being run down by Tigers when they ran out of ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(Austin Powers comes to mind)
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ... AHHHHHHHHHHH!
- Jig
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I think if both fired one shot and both hit center of mass in hull. There would be a geater chance of the slopeing armor on the Panther to deflect the round (both rounds at 1000m have the ability to kill the other) the sloping armor is the wild card in the contest. This is why the next generation of tank had sloping armor (it works better then thicker and is lighter for the amount of protection)The Panther had better mobility and was a better tank IMO but the Tiger was heaver and the 88 was deadly so I would rather stand behind the Tiger then the Panther but would not wand to be in either
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Originally posted by Scootter:
I think if both fired one shot and both hit center of mass in hull. There would be a geater chance of the slopeing armor on the Panther to deflect the round (both rounds at 1000m have the ability to kill the other) the sloping armor is the wild card in the contest. This is why the next generation of tank had sloping armor (it works better then thicker and is lighter for the amount of protection)The Panther had better mobility and was a better tank IMO but the Tiger was heaver and the 88 was deadly so I would rather stand behind the Tiger then the Panther but would not wand to be in either
The Kv-1 crews weren't afraid of the Tiger. They hated the Panthers tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
...and that those 23 mm had pnetration of 400mm of armor at 500 yds or so...
Are you sure about this penetration?? Thats more than 12.8cm PAK44 (230mm at 1000m)
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I am pretty sure- Yva was the only 23mm cannon in use against tanks by the end of the war because it's AP and SAPI shells were capable of piercing armor so well against turrets on panthers and tigers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW I mentioned ULTRA ShKAS not plain ShKAS- while the normal gun fired at 1800 rpm most of the ones on Il-2 after '44 were Ultra's left over from the production run for rear guns on bombers. The Ultra had about 3000 RPM and had to have the barrel changed every 10,000 rounds. In effect- with 7.62mm there would be no reason to not give them the Ultra in our late war plane set (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Edit: whoops! thats right- it's 400 meters- 25mm penetration.. my bad
[This message has been edited by Sorrow[S=A] (edited 08-17-2000).]
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Ok...ok.....I was a bit hasty in saying the Panther could easily beat the Tiger. It would be a hell of a fight, but I think that the Panther would come out on top because of what I said before. Not easily, and the crew might walk away severly shaken, but the Panther would win.
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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat! Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!
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25mm/400m sound much better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) it was strange that that small gun was more then twice powerfull then the best AT gun germans had.
[This message has been edited by Radegast (edited 08-17-2000).]