Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: BnZs on October 12, 2009, 11:53:23 AM
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Pretty much what it says. Best ideas for approaching the similar E fight when at least slightly inferior in both thrust/weight and turn performance.
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Was sort of hoping someone who knows more than I do would chime in by now. This question is pretty much directly related to my thread about the P-39D which I've been flying a lot lately, feels like most 1v1's I go into in that bird are at least double inferior if not triple+. :)
Not that I have a solution but I figured I'd try and share my thoughts on the matter. What it seems to come down to is energy management, being able to read and know what the other plane is capable of and making the correct maneuver is even more critical because your airframe is going to expose any mistakes rather than make up for them. It also seems that you are fighting the clock just as much as the other pilot, the longer the fight lasts then the harder it is going to be to come out the victor. As the fight wears on the better power/weight of the other airframe will eventually get them above you and then dictate the fight.
In the P-39D I try to avoid pure vertical loops unless I'm packing a lot of energy into the merge. The plane hates to go uphill and last night I had it to a couple really squirrely things at the top and I couldn't flop the nose over to go after the other plane, oblique angled turns in the vertical and horizontal seem to work much better. E is very precious and should only be given up for a sure return on the investment because odds are good you won't have much opportunity to build it back up again. That's been my approach at least so far with some admittedly mixed results.
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I would have to say...on the initial...dive to be just under or match the cons dive and blow on through (and just keep running :lol :lol :lol) on the meet, ensure you have nose up a little and continue watching the con..is he pulling hard up, has he done the same, is he....... obviously many variables here. with nose up slightly you will gain what you have lost through the merge without blowing too much E...wait for the con to turn..allow him to gain a little and turn to face...once again nose down to allow you to keep as much E as you can...slowly encourage the con to get closer and but just out of reach (allowing them to get to a point that they feel they can score a hit and fire is what you want)...if they are patient you will have to work much harder at this.....Ultimately you are wanting to get the con over confidant and force an error then pounce...all the while you may even get in some snp shots to give them a little more of a scare and urgency to finish it as quick as they can thus making them push a little harder than they should.....I do die a lot like this though...so ....take it with a grain of salt
I call it a defensive offensive..due to the fact that you are actually controlling the fight from a self placed inferior postition.
A couple of guys good at this are Agent360 (although he does use the K4 and just pretends he has an inferior plane :lol :lol :lol) and Snaphook
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Not an expert, but I guess in a Co-E 1v1, you're going to either have to sucker them into blowing their E or hope they can't fly the edge as well as you in a stall fight.
Also, if you have a roll rate advantage, that could help. Roll rate is one of those advantages that doesn't seem all that useful, but once you get used to it, you notice that you could not have pulled certain maneuvers without a nimble roll.
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:old: Get under your enemy if you can, more angles
If you have a great climb rate to counter superior turn rate, double immel, chandel immel, tripple immel, immel/spiral climb ( rope ) immel luft, immel on the rocks and immel with tartar are good bets.
Obviously...... It's more in the pilot than the plane. You can do everything right and still die. Some of these grizzled old sticks here have seen everything and can predict your path 4 moves ahead. Dont get too locked into anything and talk to everyone.
Good luck. Seek out Agent 360, Delirium, Sunsfan, Mtnman, Corky Jr, m00t etc. they will help you with some new ideas.
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Lets say you are in a 109E4 and the enemy is in a spit 16
The only way for the 109 to win this fight is:
1. The spit commits very hard very early in an attempt to gain guns immedialty.
You can gain immediate advantage with turn radius...stay close and move to guns
2. The spit chooses to merge slow and goes flat hoping to catch you with climb on your standard merge.
You spot the low e merge follow around in high yoyo and catch him stalling.
3. The spit early merges and you DON'T take the bait.
YOu follow into the early merge...extend out 90 deg off his wing and wait for the drop..saddle up
4. The spit hard merges and stall spins
Easy one...you jump on him immedialty
5. The spit merges flat and you merge flat into slow scissors.
Spit chooses to enter slow scissors...use flaps and throttle to ride behind him to guns.
In order to win against a doulbe superior plane in terms of speed and climb you must get the fight slow AND get him to commit to guns. It is best if you can play lame duck and get him to always take NOSE DOWN guns on you. Be prepared to point your wing at him and pull up to avoid guns.
If he gets above you in a guard position you must bait him into nose down close to the deck. This will give you the ability to use your turn adv to get guns and force him into a defensive posture.
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HO
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You also have to realize -any- advantages your aircraft gives you. Small things such as having a lower stall speed or not having engine torque to contend with can make a big difference. It really comes down to the pilots and your ability to make him commit a mistake by getting too aggressive.
Gunnery is also overlooked. You may fly like a champ but it means nothing if you can't hit him on that one shot you get.
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I like to do a immel/flat merge combo. I do a Immel first, just like i would when doing a double immel, but instead of doing a second Immel I do a flat turn. I turn into him tracking where his nose is. Never go up with the guy for a second Immel.
After the merge he's going to be on top of you, the counter to this is to go nose up and into him as he's going nose down. If you can keep that timing it will set you up for shot once he commits to you.
Here's a few films of P40 v N1k that we did in the DA tonight.
http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Suns/p40-n1k.ahf
http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Suns/nik-40-2.ahf
I had a third one, but it must have not saved.
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I would fake a pull up to get him into the predictable immelman and then lower the nose to keep going straight at high speed and build separation. What I want is to force a high speed engagement where speed control and geometry is controlled by the pilot and not so much by the plane limitations. Let him dive after you when he is out of the immelman and even shallow dive to make it longer and get the speed as high as you reasonably can. He will be blacking out in the first maneuvers so you have a chance to counter his initial angle advantage without getting hit. He is also likely to get eager and come in too fast, so you can force an overshoot.
Works well for planes like the P47
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I would fake a pull up to get him into the predictable immelman and then lower the nose to keep going straight at high speed and build separation. What I want is to force a high speed engagement where speed control and geometry is controlled by the pilot and not so much by the plane limitations. Let him dive after you when he is out of the immelman and even shallow dive to make it longer and get the speed as high as you reasonably can. He will be blacking out in the first maneuvers so you have a chance to counter his initial angle advantage without getting hit. He is also likely to get eager and come in too fast, so you can force an overshoot.
Works well for planes like the P47
That's exactly what I tried against Tec in our second duel in the dueling bracket. We were both in Spit XVI's and he got a shot that removed one of my elevators. Quickly realizing I wasn't going to be able to out-turn him I dove for the canyon floor, building enough speed to pull into blackout and hoping that would give me enough time to get at least one chance at a guns solution. It didn't work but it was the only way I could think of to try and overcome his newly found turning advantage.
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I have been having similar problems with the 80th in thier 38. If they keep the nose up I never have won yet.
The best succes I have had is go straight when they go over the top. Then flat turn back to them slightly nose down to gain as much e as possible. so im hi E and they are low E as they are just coming over the top. If they go back up do it over it takes 4 or 5 times to start burning up their E. As the E states get close I will lead merge and barrel roll. Putting me on their six for a snap shot. Delirium ate me up the other night with this move because I started a little to early so timing is important. MOSt of the 80th are good enough when they get a shot they dont miss. and I get towered real quick. So i guess it is a matter of fine tuning my merge and energy. Plus the 38's do have a great gun package and lead. So if you mess up your dead because they can put so much ammo into you.
I dont have the film but I have fought spits in a p40. and for me it is about getting them to overshoot or miss then get snapshots. Alot of vertical displasment and barrel rolls. to win the fight. On the merges Its all about an E fight to me merge just above the nose or below until the e is a little more even then let the guns make up the difference if the go vert.
Just my thoughts.
Great thread was thinking some of the same questions myself.
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Well Its more of a mental game than anything. Its kind of like chess sacrifice for a chk mate move.
Had a spit 16 with alt come down on my Yat T.... I told sonic that i was going for the maneuver kill and that's exactly what I did. I sacrificed any chance for a gun solution for premium position knowing if this guy goes for guns he will auger in.
Also try setting up a fight along the lines of Murdr's Why merge? technique.
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While a lot of the information mentioned above is important, imo, the best situation you can put yourself in is a head on merge where you are nosed up 45 degrees or greater up at him, and he is nosed down 45 degrees or steeper at you. When you get yourself into this advantageous position, you are able to loop over on him and get gun solution very easily on the next pass. I'm not going to bore you with the physics behind why this is so advantageous(agent touched on it), but most good pilots know this anyways.
How to set this up? Obviously the best way to accomplish this is to nose down at icon range and try to get 2-3k below your enemy and then nosing up at him on the merge. This will work a lot of the time against the new pilots but can easily be countered by your enemy nosing down to match your dive. If your enemy does nose down with you, it's not over yet, there's still one more option you have to create the "Advantageous merge". After you guys merge, just blow right by him, most likely he will loop over. Give it a few seconds and bank into a low yo yo back at him at around 2-3k separation. He will now be nose down at you and you nose up at him, giving you a perfect opportunity for gun solution on the loop over. This is how I kill most spit16s in the ta152. If this fails you can dive out and rinse repeat or just try to fight the 'double superior' plane at face value.
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This shows how I crafted my approach so when we merge I am nose up. Hope this helps. Film below.
(http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/BMathis.JPG)
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Bmathis.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Bmathis.ahf)
If I end up missing this shot which is likely, there's no way for the Ta152 to be able to compete with the Spit9 any further.
As for flying double inferior planes without taters like the 190A5, you're at even more of a disadvantage because ending the fight with your one, possibly two, gun solutions is going to be very difficult unless you are an absolute marksman. There's no way to saddle up a Spit16 if the pilot has the slightest clue.
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This shows how I crafted my approach so when we merge I am nose up. Hope this helps. Film below.
(http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/BMathis.JPG)
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Bmathis.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Bmathis.ahf)
If I end up missing this shot which is likely, there's no way for the Ta152 to be able to compete with the Spit9 any further.
As for flying double inferior planes without taters like the 190A5, you're at even more of a disadvantage because ending the fight with your one, possibly two, gun solutions is going to be very difficult unless you are an absolute marksman. There's no way to saddle up a Spit16 if the pilot has the slightest clue.
That maneuver is totally dependent on the other pilot making the mistake of actually diving to get guns on. A much wiser move would be to go up, as you go up, and reasess the situation/ look for another opportunity.
Now for a more general rant:
A pilot's ego is his worst enemy (in many cases). I call it "the F16 syndrome" in a pilot who is overconfident in his superior plane and underestimate the lethality of his adversary. I see players fall for this many times, often because of inexperience, but sometimes because of sheer overconfidence. Oh... and I do it too every now and then too when caught off guard by a experienced stick, do some half-arse move which doesn't shake him and then it's over. Or if an adversary's maneuvering does not tell about his shooting ability. Sometimes you find yourself shot down in a situation you never thought he'd get guns on. There are a few ppl out there who can make shots most ppl can't, and they're lethal especially without tracers!
Also every now and then you come across a guy who you see fly very smooth, plan his moves and angles without any jerky movements and that spells doom, a clear indication of experience and you know you have a problem if you're at a disadvantage. (m00t :cheers: and some others I've seen display this quality)
Imho it all comes down to SA and positioning yourself pre-merge. If you play your hand right the fight will be decided before the merge and only if you haven't you will find yourself in the situation described in the OP. I always try to make the merge decisive and get guns on first pass, unless the other pilot do the idiot counter move of nose-up and shoot back. That's always a gamble, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't and most times I avoid the head-on merge shot if possible.
There are a lot of experienced sticks in the community who don't want to share their wealth of knowledge, I'm not one of them.
[/rant]
:salute
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When you're flying an aircraft that performs at such a disadvantage often times the only way to win is to capitalize on a mistake. Take this sortie from the other night. Most would agree that a co-alt meeting between a P-39D and a A6M would leave the P-39 driver with few options other than putting the nose down and heading for the deck at high speeds. Thinking "what in the hell am I going to do now?" was exactly what I was thinking when I saw the icon. But then I noticed the Zero was climbing a little and as I got closer I saw he still had his drop tank. With that in mind I thought that if I conserved my energy and the Zeke played for angles I might be able get above him. I was also thankful of the Zero's light construction which let me use the 'ol MG's. If the other airframe was more stout it may have force me to try and use the cannon which I probably would have missed with.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?eadlgayitm4 (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?eadlgayitm4)
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That maneuver is totally dependent on the other pilot making the mistake of actually diving to get guns on. A much wiser move would be to go up, as you go up, and reasess the situation/ look for another opportunity.
A mistake that 95% of the arena will make 100% of the time. I go by the numbers. I am fully aware the only way I am going to beat a spit16 in a ta152 is if I trick him into making a mistake.
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Yes, or only engage on favorable terms to begin with. Positioning pre-merge is half the fight, preferrably more than half. ~95% of the AH crowd don't really use their brains when flying, they just want to get guns on as fast as possible which is why we see all the spits, la, nikis etc etc.
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Yup, and those turny planes burn energy fast... and that's when you rope 'em or drag 'em for a squaddie. Wham!
Really, faulty psychology/thinking is probably deadlier than any enemy. "Guns on" syndrome falls under this category as does "I've got lots more E, I can't possibly die," and target fixation. That's what baiting is all about. The hardest enemies to kill don't necessarily maneuver the best. For me, the hardest enemy to kill is the one that stays disciplined and doesn't take the bait.