Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: SWrokit on October 15, 2009, 09:06:38 AM
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Pros & Cons?
Trying to find some information regarding trim control. What it does, why it does, if indeed there is any benefit at all in using trim (other than auto).
Have been looking at new joysticks (still undecided on that one lol) and was reading about one that has duel throttles, which doesn't much impress me since I use the CH throttle. However, in the description narrative it stated the throttle could also be used as trim control. WTF!! I have a throttle now that I don't use on my current stick, never gave it a thought. I also have an unused mini joystick on my CH throttle I don't use.
I guess the point of my post is I'm looking for input regarding trim control. Reference to any reading materials, and how to set up my controls for it. (That is....if it's even worth doing :D)
Thanks for the advice.
<S>
Rokit
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You will find a quite extensive article about manual & combat trim on the Aces High Trainer Corps (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com) webpage (under "learning to fly")
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Rokit, depends on the plane as to where manual trim will benefit. Some really love it. Go off line and do some hi speed dives using manual trim with your E6B open. Try it with several planes. You'll soon see some amazing things.
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Many a dive in a compressed 109 has been saved from "face planting" by hammering on the the Elevator ManTrim key "K" - better still if you can map it to a wheel/throttle. As stated it depends on the dive compression aspects of the individual plane.
well worth the investigation for that single point alone.
...cheers eh! :D
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I've got aileron and elevator trim mapped to one of the 4-way hats (the "rook") on my CH throttle. I rarely use rudder trim, so just use the keyboard if I feel the need for it. I've noticed that combat trim doesn't always compensate for certain situations, like very high or very low speeds, WEP, asymmetrical external stores (dropping left wing bomb/tank but right wing bomb/tank still attached), etc. I use manual trim in those situations to negate the slight roll away from level flight. I also use manual trim during landings or any other time I want to deploy the flaps.
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Lusche definitely a good read Bro, thanks.
I can already see the benefits of having trim buttons at your disposal. Everything from diving to turn fighting. I can also see where these functions would be of help with "Stall Limiter" disabled (FINALLY). So far from what I've read, the "Trim Up" function is what needs to be programmed in, and that "Auto Trim" cancells it out when engaged.
Been playing AH for 7-8 years, AW before that. Time to take the training wheels off :D. I'll get this setup this weekend and hit the TA................... :airplane:
I've got aileron and elevator trim mapped to one of the 4-way hats (the "rook") on my CH throttle. I rarely use rudder trim, so just use the keyboard if I feel the need for it. I've noticed that combat trim doesn't always compensate for certain situations, like very high or very low speeds, WEP, asymmetrical external stores (dropping left wing bomb/tank but right wing bomb/tank still attached), etc. I use manual trim in those situations to negate the slight roll away from level flight. I also use manual trim during landings or any other time I want to deploy the flaps.
Hadn't even given that a thought. But your right, especially when your carrying 1000 lbers. Drop one and you begin to roll towards heavy side. I've always compensated with joystick. And I do have an empty 4 way on my throttle..........thanks.
Thank's Gents for the assist & help.
Salute
Rokit
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Many a dive in a compressed 109 has been saved from "face planting" by hammering on the the Elevator ManTrim key "K" - better still if you can map it to a wheel/throttle. As stated it depends on the dive compression aspects of the individual plane.
well worth the investigation for that single point alone.
...cheers eh! :D
Down trim is handy too for those planes that like to nose up in a higher speed dive like the Spits, Bostons, etc.
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One thing to remember is do not buy into the AH urban myth that using manual trim will somehow make your plane turn tighter.
ack-ack
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One thing to remember is do not buy into the AH urban myth that using manual trim will somehow make your plane turn tighter.
ack-ack
CC on that Ack. I know disabling the "Stall Limiter" will enhance the turn ratio a little, and my thought (based on absolutely nothing lol) is ........when in a tight turn, and little up trim may assist in preventing stall out. Again this is based on nothing. Everytime I've disabled stall limit I've totally crashed and burned :lol
<S>
Rokit
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Just my humble opinion but you need too learn to fly to the edge and a little beyond without the stall limiter before you start worrying about manual trim.
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Everytime I've disabled stall limit I've totally crashed and burned :lol
Don't think there's anyone here who can't say the same thing there Rokit. You just have to stick with it for a few weeks to get used to it. Took me at least 2 tries to finally force myself to keep the stall limiter off. Saw a big difference after that, my only regret is that i didn't do it sooner.
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One thing to remember is do not buy into the AH urban myth that using manual trim will somehow make your plane turn tighter.
ack-ack
yes it does.
and the 38L has dive brakes. :noid :bolt:
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CC on that Ack. I know disabling the "Stall Limiter" will enhance the turn ratio a little, and my thought (based on absolutely nothing lol) is ........when in a tight turn, and little up trim may assist in preventing stall out. Again this is based on nothing. Everytime I've disabled stall limit I've totally crashed and burned :lol
<S>
Rokit
rokit.....
turn off the stall limiter, and fly that way in fights for a little bit. you'll learn to love it. you'll find yourself riding the buzzer more often, and also learning to keep her from stalling to begin with. when she does stall, the recovery can be tricky, but it will enhance your fun, and fighting too.
<<S>>
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People who scale their sticks and trim up for turns are in effect moving the "more scaled" area of stick movement to a higher AOA. This makes it easier to stay at max AOA without going too far and losing lift. So trimming up makes tight turns easier. It won't make the perfect turn any tighter, but it could help make a good turn better.
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"How I Turned Stall Limiter Off and Learned to Love the Stall Horn as a Way of Life!!"
...showing at a theatre near you soon eh! :D
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<S> All,
Yea I hear yas on turning it off and sticking with it. My old bellybutton is like (when I do turn it off) OMG :O LMAO!! Yall need to understand, my first few years with HTC was from within a GV, with a reputable squad. Now....I enjoy the "Darker side" lol, and OH MY!! I do enjoy the ski ride :D But all flight is self taught, not unlike many others.
Yall are right!! I need to turn it off and work it till it bleeds :lol
Salute, and as always, I appreciate the feed back.........
<S>
Rokit
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Sounds like you're a bit ham-fisted at the controls. :joystick:
Stall limiter was compensating for your wild stick movements. Without stall limiter, you need to re-train yourself to be smooth and deliberate with your controls and you'll find that you rarely need to push the stick to the full deflection of its movement. A little bit of input scaling might also help you get a feel for flying without the limiter.
Good luck. Patience is rewarded...
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<S> All,
Yea I hear yas on turning it off and sticking with it. My old bellybutton is like (when I do turn it off) OMG :O LMAO!! Yall need to understand, my first few years with HTC was from within a GV, with a reputable squad. Now....I enjoy the "Darker side" lol, and OH MY!! I do enjoy the ski ride :D But all flight is self taught, not unlike many others.
Yall are right!! I need to turn it off and work it till it bleeds :lol
Salute, and as always, I appreciate the feed back.........
<S>
Rokit
When I started AH, there wasn't a stall limiter but had experience already flying in the FR arenas in AW from time to time and playing WB. Playing those two games made me learn to listen to the stall buzzer. People over look it as an annoying sound effect but it can really give you the necessary audio clues to allow you to ride the edge of the envelope. With the sole exception of the flaps, the stall buzzer is the only other sound I keep at 100% (everything else is set to 70%) so I can clearly hear the stall buzzer over all the other sounds. I even dug through old sound files I had and found a stall buzzer with a clicking sound rather than a buzzer and this stall clicker, in my opinion, gives me a more precise audio clue for the stall. Through the pitch and speed of the clicks, I can pretty much accurately fly on that thin line of the flight envelope.
ack-ack
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Ack.....lol Bro, I remember the clicking sound for stall warning. And you may have hit it right on the head Bro...........that blamed assed buzzer down right gets on my nerves!! Dang Bro, would you be willing to share the sound packet? If so send me a PM and & return my email addy. I do the same both in the air and on the ground......that being I lower most of the sounds. I'm quite dependent on hearing what's around me, hence the sound card from hell :D
<S>
Rokit
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Ack.....lol Bro, I remember the clicking sound for stall warning. And you may have hit it right on the head Bro...........that blamed assed buzzer down right gets on my nerves!! Dang Bro, would you be willing to share the sound packet? If so send me a PM and & return my email addy. I do the same both in the air and on the ground......that being I lower most of the sounds. I'm quite dependent on hearing what's around me, hence the sound card from hell :D
<S>
Rokit
have you downloaded any of the custom soundpacks yet?
they have different stall warnings.
i use twinbooms sounds.....and it's a lot less annoyoing......
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CC...Installed Ranger's Pack.
<S>
Rokit
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Besides the stall buzzer onset of buffeting is another cue.
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Besides the stall buzzer onset of buffeting is another cue.
i was in the da last night......flew against sonicblu, krupinski, grizz, agent360........those guys will FORCE you to learn to ride the stall....then they'll nail ya to the wall with those dam taters.
:aok
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LMAO Cap!! I went to the TA and worked it for a while yesterday........and YEP :O lol. I'll be transforming over, without a doubt.....BUT OMG!! It's definitely going to take some work lol.
It's all good though, we all eventually need to discard the training wheels.......only took me 7 - 8 years :D I get this worked out, hell I'll start working on potty training :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Again, thanks everyone for the input.
<S>
Rokit
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LMAO Cap!! I went to the TA and worked it for a while yesterday........and YEP :O lol. I'll be transforming over, without a doubt.....BUT OMG!! It's definitely going to take some work lol.
It's all good though, we all eventually need to discard the training wheels.......only took me 7 - 8 years :D I get this worked out, hell I'll start working on potty training :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Again, thanks everyone for the input.
<S>
Rokit
eehh......easy to get rid of the training wheels...........
just fly straight, level, and slow, near an enemy base. there'll be someone up shortly to remove them for ya. :neener: :neener:
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People who scale their sticks and trim up for turns are in effect moving the "more scaled" area of stick movement to a higher AOA. This makes it easier to stay at max AOA without going too far and losing lift. So trimming up makes tight turns easier. It won't make the perfect turn any tighter, but it could help make a good turn better.
Max elevator deflection is just that, MAX deflection.
All manually trimming will do is make your j/s throw shorter to hit max deflection.
So if you are pulling the j/s back an inch, or have trimmed up and are pulling you joystick back 1/2 and inch, either way you are reaching max deflection.
There are many times/reasons to trim your plane.
High speed in a ki84.
Nose up in an F4U @ stall speed.
Dropping flaps to land to offest the nose lift.
(there is more, just a few examples)
BUT to turn tighter in a stall fight isn't one of 'em.
(EDIT: after some thought, I wanted to add that I scale my j/s so most all the sliders are all the way at the top. There MIGHT be an argument to manually trim if you are using AH's default stick scale to help control a turn. Granted, you should prob. scale your j/s and eliminate that need, but there is an argument there.)
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Just for anyone who doesn't understand how trim works here's a couple of posts of mine copied from this thread on trim: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,269771.0.html
When a trim tab is employed, it is moved into the slipstream opposite to the control surface's desired deflection. For example, in order to trim an elevator to hold the nose down, the elevator's trim tab will actually rise up into the slipstream. The increased pressure on top of the trim tab surface caused by raising it will then deflect the entire elevator slab down slightly, causing the tail to rise and the aircraft's nose to move down.
This would explain why they have no ability to improve turn performance and it also explains why they are so effective in overcoming control stiffness.
Think about a compressed dive. The airstream is providing greater force then the pilot can overcome by pulling back on the stick, thus the elevators are locked. When the pilot trims up the trim tab is deflected down into the airstream providing an upward force on the elevator which is transferred to the stick thereby assisting the pilot in pulling it back.
The pilot can trim in this instance because the trim tab is relatively small compared to the elevator itself so forcing it into the airstream is relatively that much easier.
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Another thread about using Trim that might be of some help or benefit
this link starts about 1/4 way down on the thread topic........read the following replys
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,257910.msg3195777.html#msg3195777
hope this helps.......... :salute :airplane:
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Max elevator deflection is just that, MAX deflection.
All manually trimming will do is make your j/s throw shorter to hit max deflection.
So if you are pulling the j/s back an inch, or have trimmed up and are pulling you joystick back 1/2 and inch, either way you are reaching max deflection.
There are many times/reasons to trim your plane.
High speed in a ki84.
Nose up in an F4U @ stall speed.
Dropping flaps to land to offest the nose lift.
(there is more, just a few examples)
BUT to turn tighter in a stall fight isn't one of 'em.
(EDIT: after some thought, I wanted to add that I scale my j/s so most all the sliders are all the way at the top. There MIGHT be an argument to manually trim if you are using AH's default stick scale to help control a turn. Granted, you should prob. scale your j/s and eliminate that need, but there is an argument there.)
You failed to understand what I wrote and you argued against a point I didn't make. If you hadn't quoted me your post would have been mostly correct. As a response to what you quoted it's nonsense.
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You failed to understand what I wrote and you argued against a point I didn't make. If you hadn't quoted me your post would have been mostly correct. As a response to what you quoted it's nonsense.
Mostly? Nothing at all inaccurate about what I posted. Spot on actually.
RE: to your post it was not as much a direct reply to what you wrote, as much as adding to it and clarifying a known "myth" in AH. I have run across too many pilots that think trimming helps you turn tighter which is just plane false.
I do disagree with trimming for a tighter turn as a whole. Throttle management and position will give you a much better result than trimming ever will.
In a very limited sense, and in certain situations, what you posted is somewhat accurate; but on the whole you are not doing anybody any favors telling them to trim for a turn. Alt, speed, vectors, etc, etc.. change so instantly in a fight that being out of trim for that NEXT move/evasive/counter will hurt you far more than that the (maybe) advantage of having your plane trimmed for a turn.
I COULD see it being helpfull when diving in for a pick at a high rate of speed because you are not sticking around and are extending/zooming away so you will have time to adjust trim on your extend/zoom. But as I allready stated throttle management and proper position (angle/vector) would give you better results.
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Max elevator deflection is just that, MAX deflection.
All manually trimming will do is make your j/s throw shorter to hit max deflection.
So if you are pulling the j/s back an inch, or have trimmed up and are pulling you joystick back 1/2 and inch, either way you are reaching max deflection.
There are many times/reasons to trim your plane.
High speed in a ki84.
Nose up in an F4U @ stall speed.
Dropping flaps to land to offest the nose lift.
(there is more, just a few examples)
BUT to turn tighter in a stall fight isn't one of 'em.
(EDIT: after some thought, I wanted to add that I scale my j/s so most all the sliders are all the way at the top. There MIGHT be an argument to manually trim if you are using AH's default stick scale to help control a turn. Granted, you should prob. scale your j/s and eliminate that need, but there is an argument there.)
not quite right.
when you trim a plane, you trim it for a speed.
for example. take any plane of your choice up. trim everything for 150. so now you're 150 straight n level hands off.....maybe a rudder input here n there, but otherwise nothing needed.
now throttle back a hair. the plane will descend till it re-acquires this speed. throttle up, she;ll climb till she re-acquires this speed.
that's what changing trim does. i've screwed with trim in turnfights a lot. it doesn;t make anythign easier on me to trim up when i'm turning tight. all that does, is make me have to re-trim the aircraft if the con decides to extend away from me.
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Mostly? Nothing at all inaccurate about what I posted. Spot on actually.
RE: to your post it was not as much a direct reply to what you wrote, as much as adding to it and clarifying a known "myth" in AH. I have run across too many pilots that think trimming helps you turn tighter which is just plane false.
I do disagree with trimming for a tighter turn as a whole. Throttle management and position will give you a much better result than trimming ever will.
In a very limited sense, and in certain situations, what you posted is somewhat accurate; but on the whole you are not doing anybody any favors telling them to trim for a turn. Alt, speed, vectors, etc, etc.. change so instantly in a fight that being out of trim for that NEXT move/evasive/counter will hurt you far more than that the (maybe) advantage of having your plane trimmed for a turn.
I COULD see it being helpfull when diving in for a pick at a high rate of speed because you are not sticking around and are extending/zooming away so you will have time to adjust trim on your extend/zoom. But as I allready stated throttle management and proper position (angle/vector) would give you better results.
Again you're talking about turning tighter which is not what I posted about. If you're not responding to what I wrote then don't quote me.
Some people have posted that trimming up helps them turn. Instead of jumping on them and saying they're wrong, like somebody always will, I wondered why they felt that way. It seems to me that trimming up could only make a difference if you're scaled like the default scaling. I don't trim up for turns and I don't recommend it but I was curious what the effect was and why some people feel it helps them. You appear to think I'm talking about how to turn. Since I used the word "turn" a few times I can understand your confusion.
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Rokit,
I never used the stall limiter from day 1,I turned it on to see what it would do and found it only handicaped me.Now that said,I dont have stall buzzer on or buffet sound on,I dont recall any WWII plane that had a stall horn and thats what made me turn it off.
I rarely use manual trim,because I'm just to lazy,I do have manual trim mapped and a button to toggle CT off as I use an analog control for trim and it doesnt override CT as say pressing the "K" key would.
While your testing stall limiter off,try turning down the stall horn and see if you can fly and not crash and burn.
Also like Lute,I have my stick scaling sliders set to 100%,except the first 2 sliders for pitch which I set to 80% and 90%.If your hamfisted at all you'll pay the price for such a setting,OTH,it will teach you to be smooth.
:salute
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You will find a quite extensive article about manual & combat trim on the Aces High Trainer Corps (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com) webpage (under "learning to fly")
just a side note: The Aces High Trainer Corps Website, Lusche provided the link to, is Temporarly down..
we are aware of this, and It will be back up soon........
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not quite right.
when you trim a plane, you trim it for a speed.
I was discussing trimming for tighter turns which some are confused about thinking trim will make the plane exceed max deflection. I wasn't explaining how trim works.
Again you're talking about turning tighter which is not what I posted about. If you're not responding to what I wrote then don't quote me.
Not sure why this is going back/forth as we are not really arguing but...
You posted...
So trimming up makes tight turns easier. It won't make the perfect turn any tighter, but it could help make a good turn better.
Do explain how one makes a good turn better using only trim. I understand you weren't saying tighter. I am curious how manually trimming a plane in AH during a dogfight will make a turn either easier or better.
Please expound.
My last reply to you explained how being trimmed for a turn can be a disadvantage in many (most) situations in a dogfight.
As Cap posted, trim might be helpfull (to some) in the one isolated turn, but if the fight changes (i.e. nme extends, fight goes nose down/up) being trimmed for that turn is a detriment.
On the whole I am of the opinion that trimming for a turn during a fight puts you at a disadvantage when the fight changes. Granted, if you are picking or fighting a noob, the fight might very well be a single turn. Most of MY fights tend to encompass more than one turn in the same direction at a constant speed.
I guess I am looking at this from the perspective of a fight as a whole, not a single isolated turn, whereas you might just be talking about a specific turn and nothing else.
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I was discussing trimming for tighter turns which some are confused about thinking trim will make the plane exceed max deflection. I wasn't explaining how trim works.
Not sure why this is going back/forth as we are not really arguing but...
You posted...
Do explain how one makes a good turn better using only trim. I understand you weren't saying tighter. I am curious how manually trimming a plane in AH during a dogfight will make a turn either easier or better.
Please expound.
My last reply to you explained how being trimmed for a turn can be a disadvantage in many (most) situations in a dogfight.
As Cap posted, trim might be helpfull (to some) in the one isolated turn, but if the fight changes (i.e. nme extends, fight goes nose down/up) being trimmed for that turn is a detriment.
On the whole I am of the opinion that trimming for a turn during a fight puts you at a disadvantage when the fight changes. Granted, if you are picking or fighting a noob, the fight might very well be a single turn. Most of MY fights tend to encompass more than one turn in the same direction at a constant speed.
I guess I am looking at this from the perspective of a fight as a whole, not a single isolated turn, whereas you might just be talking about a specific turn and nothing else.
sorry dude....just went back and re-read it. i must've been stupidly tired when i read it last night. :rofl :aok :bolt: