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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ImADot on October 15, 2009, 10:38:28 PM

Title: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: ImADot on October 15, 2009, 10:38:28 PM
So, what drives people to feel the need to bring the CV 50 yards from shore?   :headscratch:  They can't get alt, but then again auto-ack starts shooting when defenders get off the runway and the guys that can't fly have an easier time in the 5".  Still, makes for an interesting fight when they have no more E than defenders that just took off.   :D

By the way, two of us held them back :rock and we eventually killed their CV with one of ours.   :neener:

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/ViperDriver/AcesHighII/CV_SpittingDistance.jpg)
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: curry1 on October 15, 2009, 10:47:01 PM
its probably so close so it will spawn lvts.   :old:
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Lusche on October 15, 2009, 10:47:19 PM
So, what drives people to feel the need to bring the CV 50 yards from shore?   :headscratch:  They can't get alt,

Sure they can. Who said you have fly directly to the enemy field? Get alt by flying into the opposite direction. The land based enemy can't do the same, cause the fight is directly at the task group, so any of them daring to get above 3k is flying on a cloud of puffy ack.

IMHO the minimum distance between a task group and shore line has to be increased substantially.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: JunkyII on October 15, 2009, 10:52:50 PM
Sure they can. Who said you have fly directly to the enemy field? Get alt by flying into the opposite direction. The land based enemy can't do the same, cause the fight is directly at the task group, so any of them daring to get above 3k is flying on a cloud of puffy ack.

IMHO the minimum distance between a task group and shore line has to be increased substantially.
plus make Lvts spawn about the same distance from further away :salute
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Saxman on October 15, 2009, 11:40:04 PM
I'd say absolute MINIMUM for CVs should be 25 miles from an enemy base. Land bases are supposed to have a sector between them for the MA, so the same should be applied to the boats as well.

That said, I think the types of fleets should be expanded, as well. Carrier groups during the war didn't carry landing craft with them, so why should ours? There should be separate CV groups and landing groups.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: BaldEagl on October 15, 2009, 11:49:17 PM
I love rolling out a Tiger and killing the CV when it's that close.  I've gotten several CVs that way. 

An Ostie or Wirble on the beach is fun too as the low flying enemies fly straight at you.

It's hard to say which is more fun.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: oakranger on October 16, 2009, 01:33:14 AM
So, is there a name made up for CVs that close to air strip? 
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: usvi on October 16, 2009, 01:40:52 AM
Deploy a couple dozen of these a few hundred yards offshore of bases.
(http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/h/hi/hisks/1098618_contact_naval_mine_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Bruv119 on October 16, 2009, 01:56:35 AM
So, is there a name made up for CVs that close to air strip? 

hmmm lets see   Soon to be artificial coral reef  ?
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: oakranger on October 16, 2009, 02:04:51 AM
hmmm lets see   Soon to be artificial coral reef  ?

LOL

What i mean is there a name for a CV that dam close.  Kind like we have "spawn capers", "alt monkeys" "ram tards" "ack huggers".  surly we can come up with a name for the CV 50 yrs from the base.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Krusty on October 16, 2009, 02:16:46 AM
Any CV that got caught within hundreds of miles of an enemy shoreline was toast.

I'd love to see CVs get automatically tracked and fired upon by SB's with AI gunners. They shouldn't last 5 minutes within visual range of land, and that's being GENEROUS!
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Chalenge on October 16, 2009, 02:52:43 AM
On that map there is no SB at that field and the guy that had control of the CV is 14 yrs old. The other guys were just helping him to have fun. Question you should be asking is on a map with only six guys per side (max I have seen so far) why is it that you have to steal CVs and then move them beyond the range of everything except Lancasters? The map will never be won like that.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: steely07 on October 16, 2009, 03:06:19 AM
LOL

What i mean is there a name for a CV that dam close.  Kind like we have "spawn capers", "alt monkeys" "ram tards" "ack huggers".  surly we can come up with a name for the CV 50 yrs from the base.


"Skimboarding Cv at 30, stand by to repel sailors"

Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: batch on October 16, 2009, 05:07:45 AM
I'd say absolute MINIMUM for CVs should be 25 miles from an enemy base. Land bases are supposed to have a sector between them for the MA, so the same should be applied to the boats as well.

The 8" guns only fire 21 miles....... so you think a cv should never be within a full sector of a base AND should never use its guns for anything........ can you see ANY possible reason for having a CV in the game at all? if it can never be closer than another airfield and has no attack weaponry whatsoever?

plus make Lvts spawn about the same distance from further away :salute

lvts already spawn in the same spot up to I believe 8 miles out........ guess people just dont realize that

agreed its truely annoying when you cant lift off the runway as has been talked about in many different threads

of course with the 5" guns firing 10 miles it wouldnt be that hard to accomplish the same result from a greater distance (actually a more drastic result because ack would be below 3K)
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: RipChord929 on October 16, 2009, 06:14:13 AM
Well, unlike the CV's in game, real ones are extremely fragile.. Loaded with avgas, ammo, and flame prone aircraft...
Just a couple bomb holes in the flight deck, and they are out of business until repaired.. As I said, UNLIKE the game!!!
As others have already stated, they wouldn't EVEN COME CLOSE to an enemy shore... Their planes would fly a dogleg
course to the target, just to conceal their ships position.. Signals between ships were made by lights, so as not to expose
the carriers to RDF detection, on and on...  Wish it was this way in game, would make things more interesting for some...
But a little too complex for others.. Ah well, mores the pity...

Separate amphibious assault fleets, would be a killer addition to the game... More fleets to command for aspiring Admirals..
More targets for the Airboi's.. And INTERESTING new gameplay possibilities... Such as, Battleship for shore bombardment,
New shore batts, (14in disappearing rifles in open pits) to fight the BB, Assault transports (APA) to launch LVT's or LCVP's,
LST's to fire bombardment rockets, and launch tanks at the shorline, Actual mannable shore defenses, bunkers with MG's or
anti boat guns at the shoreline... More stuff for the gunners to blast a path thru for invading troops... And more guns to do so!!!

TONS or game potential in this area!!  Hoping someday, (before I die of oldage) that HT will really cut the dogs of war loose...

RC
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: lyric1 on October 16, 2009, 06:41:48 AM
Deploy a couple dozen of these a few hundred yards offshore of bases.
(http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/h/hi/hisks/1098618_contact_naval_mine_1.jpg)
I like this option.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: lyric1 on October 16, 2009, 06:43:46 AM
Any CV that got caught within hundreds of miles of an enemy shoreline was toast.

I'd love to see CVs get automatically tracked and fired upon by SB's with AI gunners. They shouldn't last 5 minutes within visual range of land, and that's being GENEROUS!
This option as well.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Hap on October 16, 2009, 06:49:07 AM
In LW Orange, there have been times low-rankers will bring a boat close for score merely.

Anyhow, LVT's will spawn at roughly 8 miles out. 
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Saxman on October 16, 2009, 07:29:01 AM
The 8" guns only fire 21 miles....... so you think a cv should never be within a full sector of a base AND should never use its guns for anything........ can you see ANY possible reason for having a CV in the game at all? if it can never be closer than another airfield and has no attack weaponry whatsoever?


It wasn't the job of the carrier's escorts to bombard enemy positions. It was the job of those escorts to get between a carrier and an enemy's surface ships (or submarines, as the case may be) and to put up a blanket of AAA against aircraft. When a carrier was supporting an invasion it wasn't the carrier's escorts that were rushing in to blast the hell out of the target, so why should it be any different here?

There should be separate task groups for that. IE: a BB group that can get within 15 miles, and a landing group (LST and a couple destroyers) that can get within 8.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: CAP1 on October 16, 2009, 07:52:55 AM
LOL

What i mean is there a name for a CV that dam close.  Kind like we have "spawn capers", "alt monkeys" "ram tards" "ack huggers".  surly we can come up with a name for the CV 50 yrs from the base.

stupid? :noid


actually, as much as i prefer flying, when they get em that close, it's kinda fun to roll a tank, and kill their boat with that.  :devil
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Hap on October 16, 2009, 07:55:18 AM
It wasn't the job of the carrier's escorts to bombard enemy positions. It was the job of those escorts to get between a carrier and an enemy's surface ships (or submarines, as the case may be) and to put up a blanket of AAA against aircraft. When a carrier was supporting an invasion it wasn't the carrier's escorts that were rushing in to blast the hell out of the target, so why should it be any different here?

There should be separate task groups for that. IE: a BB group that can get within 15 miles, and a landing group (LST and a couple destroyers) that can get within 8.
:aok :aok
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: whels on October 16, 2009, 11:15:38 AM
:aok :aok

Spawnable light Cruisers (using perks). Limit them to 2 active at 1 time  per fleet.  Limit CVs to 15k off shore.
how do u get perks for cruisers? you get them from sinking enemy ships and PTs or use Bomber perks.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: waystin2 on October 16, 2009, 11:30:49 AM
Most ships of the size we have represented would end up grounding or ripping their bottoms out getting that close to a shoreline.  A change does need to be implemented. :aok
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Shuffler on October 16, 2009, 11:40:23 AM
Most ships of the size we have represented would end up grounding or ripping their bottoms out getting that close to a shoreline.  A change does need to be implemented. :aok
Battleship Texas

Length - 573 feet
Beam - 106 feet
Normal Draft - 28 feet 6 inches
Displacement - 34,000 tons
Speed - 21 knots
Crew - 1,820

Armament
•Main Battery:
Year 1944 - 10 - 14"/45 caliber guns in 5 turrets
Range - 12 miles
Projectiles - Armor Piercing - 1500 lbs
Projectiles - High Explosive - 1275 lbs
Full Broadside - Armor Piercing - 15,000 lbs
Rate of Fire - 1.5 rounds per minute
Turret Crew - 70 men
•Secondary Battery:
Year 1914 - 21 - 5"/51-caliber guns
Year 1945 - 6 - 5"/51-caliber guns
Torpedo Tubes:
Year 1914 - 21" TT
Year 1945 - 10 - 3"/50-caliber guns; 10 - 40 mm quad mounted guns; 44 - 20 mm guns
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Westy on October 16, 2009, 11:58:43 AM
"A change does need to be implemented. "

If they're not going to keep Lancasters from being used as dive bombers why
would they keep fleets from sailing in the surf?
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Zwerg on October 16, 2009, 12:22:40 PM
Yeah.
HTC should really put manpower into developping many new sea units.
Gives us players even more opportunities to do really stupid things with them.
 :aok
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Helm on October 16, 2009, 12:25:16 PM
I dont really understand the problem here? ....I am willing to bet the CV died? ....so whats the big deal that it was so close to shore??  This is a "game" not a simulation.



Helm ...out
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: RedDg on October 16, 2009, 12:30:28 PM
So, is there a name made up for CVs that close to air strip? 

"CVT"
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Shuffler on October 16, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
I dont really understand the problem here? ....I am willing to bet the CV died? ....so whats the big deal that it was so close to shore??  This is a "game" not a simulation.



Helm ...out

I thought it was a simulation of a game.... hmmm
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: John Curnutte on October 16, 2009, 02:04:45 PM
Most ships of the size we have represented would end up grounding or ripping their bottoms out getting that close to a shoreline.  A change does need to be implemented. :aok

 I have wondered why in the world capital ships don't get grounded or stuck , this would be riot as the carrier could go no where and it would just suffer . And I totally agree with Waystin on that statement .
                                           Nutte :salute
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Crash Orange on October 17, 2009, 07:29:16 AM
When a carrier was supporting an invasion it wasn't the carrier's escorts that were rushing in to blast the hell out of the target, so why should it be any different here?

Because this isn't a naval game, it's an air game with some ships thrown in for variety.

Any attempt at even remotely realistic rules/sim for the ships in this game would be doomed. The main reason is the time frame: no one is going to want to take four hours or more to embark and land troops, or half a day for surface fleets to maneuver to within sight of each other, or an hour or two to form up a strike and hit an enemy CV 100+ miles away. Not to mention hours or even days of bombardment and airstrikes before landing troops. The numbers are also way off, you'd need dozens of pilots to simulate a proper attack on a CV group.

IMHO the CVs should have to stay a bit further out than they do now, but because it would improve game play, not because it's more realistic. The biggest problem currently is the ability to have puffy ack over the enemy airfield, that should never be allowed. Puffy ack should also be less effective against maneuvering fighters and more effective against bombers flying straight and level.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Bruv119 on October 17, 2009, 07:32:31 AM
I think that the CV commander should be able to set the speed of the ship.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Spikes on October 17, 2009, 07:34:57 AM
I think that the CV commander should be able to set the speed of the ship.
Can cause more ways fot the spies to take control...set the speed to 2kts and its a sitting duck...
Another idea just sprouted...how about different Modes, if Sax's thing doesn't go through. If it's in bombardment mode, it slows down, but no aircraft are able to launch.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Saxman on October 17, 2009, 09:32:21 AM

Any attempt at even remotely realistic rules/sim for the ships in this game would be doomed. The main reason is the time frame: no one is going to want to take four hours or more to embark and land troops, or half a day for surface fleets to maneuver to within sight of each other, or an hour or two to form up a strike and hit an enemy CV 100+ miles away. Not to mention hours or even days of bombardment and airstrikes before landing troops. The numbers are also way off, you'd need dozens of pilots to simulate a proper attack on a CV group.


Would you mind explaining just WHERE in my post I said any of this?
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2009, 09:58:47 AM
Would you mind explaining just WHERE in my post I said any of this?
dude, you cant argue with that guy hes just gunna say retarded things :salute
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Anaxogoras on October 17, 2009, 10:03:09 AM
 :rofl Thanks for reminding me why the main arena is rarely worth the time.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: sandwich on October 17, 2009, 10:23:42 AM
When the carrier is that close i always try to move it out.

The only problem is that my rank isnt very good and some idiot with a better score than me takes control and turns it right in line with the shore battery.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: CAP1 on October 17, 2009, 10:31:19 AM
When the carrier is that close i always try to move it out.

The only problem is that my rank isnt very good and some idiot with a better score than me takes control and turns it right in line with the shore battery.

we had someone in mw doing that last night. a squaddie that outranked him, took it, and moved it towards a more reasonable place to try to make a fight.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Crash Orange on October 17, 2009, 05:23:22 PM
Would you mind explaining just WHERE in my post I said any of this?

You didn't. What I'm saying is that I think the requirements of playability make the naval game so inherently unrealistic that any attempt to make it closer to RL is futile - it's going to be wildly unrealistic no matter what you do, because the pace and scale of the game is designed around small-scale and spontaneous air-to-air fights rather than something as methodical as an amphibious invasion or fleet action. Everything in the game other than those small AtA fights is just a mechanic to give them a focus and objective.

For example, getting the CV as close as in this example is silly, but IMO the basic fact that you have to bring one of our expendable CVs in close enough to risk it sinking if you want to launch LVTs is good for game play because it results in more intense and hard-fought battles.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Chalenge on October 17, 2009, 07:15:59 PM
There is not much danger of losing the fleet when nearly EVERYONE in the arena is afraid of losing 300 bomber perks and the RANK associated with a single death (this is EW remember). I have tried explaining to them that a few deaths dont make that much difference but someone has spread the false rumor already that it does. In some cases upping a bomber will have everyone defecting so they can take a shot at you. Its not like LW at all.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: usvi on October 18, 2009, 10:11:28 AM
There is not much danger of losing the fleet when nearly EVERYONE in the arena is afraid of losing 300 bomber perks and the RANK associated with a single death (this is EW remember). I have tried explaining to them that a few deaths dont make that much difference but someone has spread the false rumor already that it does. In some cases upping a bomber will have everyone defecting so they can take a shot at you. Its not like LW at all.
This explains the reason that CV group is so close...undefended bases,EW dwellers favorite target. :neener:
A flight of JU-88s would put that Cv group down no problem.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Saxman on October 18, 2009, 12:25:25 PM
You didn't. What I'm saying is that I think the requirements of playability make the naval game so inherently unrealistic that any attempt to make it closer to RL is futile - it's going to be wildly unrealistic no matter what you do, because the pace and scale of the game is designed around small-scale and spontaneous air-to-air fights rather than something as methodical as an amphibious invasion or fleet action. Everything in the game other than those small AtA fights is just a mechanic to give them a focus and objective.

For example, getting the CV as close as in this example is silly, but IMO the basic fact that you have to bring one of our expendable CVs in close enough to risk it sinking if you want to launch LVTs is good for game play because it results in more intense and hard-fought battles.


That's a load of BS. It is NOT good for gameplay to bring the CV in that close for the reasons already stated. Defenders can't climb out because the instant they take off they come under AAA fire.

Separating out the fleet types would NOT negatively impact playability. Rather it would encourage more variety by having different fleets that serve different purposes. Do you keep your fleets together? Do you let your CA/BB gunship group range out on their own to attack an enemy CV and risk losing them to air attack? Do you support your landing group with the carrier, or try to run it in with help from land-based aircraft?

We have different base types that serve different functions, so why not different fleets as well?
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: Getback on October 18, 2009, 03:43:08 PM
(http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo150/aesopsoze/ahss6.jpg)

Was hitting the cv with a manned ack. Hoped my flashes would show up. My timing was off though. Someone else sunk the cv. After seeing me take down many guns on the BB one friendly asked, "are you doing that?' Yep.
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: 4deck on October 18, 2009, 04:23:46 PM
LOL

What i mean is there a name for a CV that dam close.  Kind like we have "spawn capers", "alt monkeys" "ram tards" "ack huggers".  surly we can come up with a name for the CV 50 yrs from the base.

A Dredger
Title: Re: Really? CV Needs to be this close?
Post by: CAP1 on October 21, 2009, 11:13:46 AM
Can cause more ways fot the spies to take control...set the speed to 2kts and its a sitting duck...
Another idea just sprouted...how about different Modes, if Sax's thing doesn't go through. If it's in bombardment mode, it slows down, but no aircraft are able to launch.

stop spies from taking control? easy. it can be timed before you switch sides again. link cv control the same way.

 you just switch from knights to rooks? no ability to control cv's for 1 hour.  :D