Aces High Bulletin Board

Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Bino on October 18, 2009, 03:19:34 PM

Title: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Bino on October 18, 2009, 03:19:34 PM
I'd like to ask the FSO CM Team to consider including a frame survival bonus in the scoring of all our events.

A frame survival bonus was part of the scoring in the recent Battle Of Britain FSO, "Adlertag."

Along with the "one life, one plane" aspect of FSO it puts a premium on returning to base, and adds yet one more bit of realism, IMHO.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Wagger on October 18, 2009, 09:07:10 PM
Agreed. Make it so CM. That's if you want to that is.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Squire on October 19, 2009, 11:03:55 PM
I could add them as sop to my setups. Its not hard to get the data. I can't speak for the other Admin CMs.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Baumer on October 20, 2009, 01:08:01 AM
Pilots who successfully land in the FSO's I design, have always scored points. I believe promoting survival is an important aspect of special events, and that makes them unique/different from other areas of the game.

As a matter of fact, in the November FSO I have added a point multiplier to certain aircraft if they are successfully RTB'd.   :)
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Nefarious on October 20, 2009, 07:20:32 AM
Pilots who successfully land in the FSO's I design, have always scored points. I believe promoting survival is an important aspect of special events, and that makes them unique/different from other areas of the game.

As a matter of fact, in the November FSO I have added a point multiplier to certain aircraft if they are successfully RTB'd.   :)

What is the November FSO?  :)
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: daddog on October 20, 2009, 01:28:20 PM
http://ahevents.org/pacific-theatre/too-little-too-late-philippienes-december-1941.html
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Anaxogoras on October 20, 2009, 01:44:38 PM
Pilots who successfully land in the FSO's I design, have always scored points.

Is that really true?  Sometimes there have been points awarded for landing, and sometimes not.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: ghostdancer on October 20, 2009, 02:00:54 PM
In his designs I believe he factors them in.

In my designs this was the first time I gave a survival bonus.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Chapel on October 20, 2009, 11:05:02 PM
I really like the survival bonus...
Kinda reminds me of some of the great features that were included in the Select Squad Series.
Some of the rules in place really setup a great series where the battle could ebb and flow, and surviving meant that your top of the line planes could operate at maximum efficiency on the subsequent frames.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Baumer on October 21, 2009, 11:53:18 AM
Yes in every one of my FSO's pilots who successfully land always score points. I also figure the pilot point value on the number of pilots who actually fly in the frame vs having a predetermined value. I feel it is more accurate to have it reflect what actually happens in the frame and remove the uncertainty of a predetermined system. Also this allows for the A2A points to always  equal the A2G points. So the air battle is always equal to the ground targets.

This is an example of my scoring spreadsheet, I use the raw logs and go through each entry to make sure I have accurate counts. That's why it an takes a day or two to go through the 5000+ rows of data to make sure I don't miss a kill or landing.

(http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/CMscoresheet/CMscoresheet.jpg)

Larger version that is easier to read.
http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/CMscoresheet/CMscoresheet.jpg (http://332nd.org/dogs/baumer/CMscoresheet/CMscoresheet.jpg)
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Nefarious on October 21, 2009, 12:38:39 PM
I like the Frame Survival Bonus as well.  :aok

Nice Charts Baumer.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Anaxogoras on October 21, 2009, 01:04:04 PM
Oh, Bravo to you then! :aok  All other CM's take note if you don't assign points for landing already. :)
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Bino on October 21, 2009, 06:54:21 PM
Thanks, gents!  :salute
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Krusty on October 24, 2009, 11:04:01 PM
There is a downside to survival bonuses. Often times the side with the upper hand pushes the fight so far as to follow a fleeing enemy for sectors simply to deprive them of bonus points on landing. It can (in some situations) simply reward the side with better planes, better numbers, or whatever, because they simply will be the last ones standing to land and get the bonus.

Overall I'm for them, but I think both sides of the coin must be considered in any setup, rather than say "always use 'em."
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: boomerlu on October 24, 2009, 11:22:54 PM
Overall I'm for them, but I think both sides of the coin must be considered in any setup, rather than say "always use 'em."
Asymmetric survival bonuses - more for less advanced planes, more for the disadvantaged side... etc. Simple idea.

Of course implementing it in a way that's fair is not so simple... but we have ENY as a rough guideline already.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: boomerlu on October 24, 2009, 11:35:25 PM
Baumer, about you having to manually go through all the data in the logs...

I'm sure some of our talented programmers (of which I'm not one) could write a script to parse all the data? Would reduce your workload quite a bit.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Baumer on October 24, 2009, 11:52:29 PM
Yes survival bonus's are a difficult balance but I have always scored landings and will continue to do so. The bonus is intended to promote/reward better teamwork for keeping certain planes alive.



As for working with programmers, that's been an ongoing project for the past 6 months+, not counting my own VB work with excel. forHIM and 68Lurch have done some very good work with the AHevents site and this is a rather complicated problem, I don't want to give them a lot of extra work until I'm sure of what I'm asking for. The major difficulty is sorting out exactly how many takeoffs should really count, working through the logs to find and not double count disco's, crash on takeoff's, or "joystick" issues is very complicated. Designs that have second lives or lot's of gunners only complicates issues, not to mention fuel or ordinance restrictions.

I hope to have a better automated system over this winter, we'll see.  :)
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Krusty on October 25, 2009, 02:54:10 AM
I don't think asymmetrical bonuses are a good idea. Too subjective.

I think it might be more interesting to remove bonuses for killing fighters of any kind. No landing bonus, but no death points either.

Leave the points only associated with the mission. You need to bomb this much stuff? That's all your points, right there. You get the mission put together in such a way as to accomplish your goals, and you win!

Removes the reward for groups going out and score-whoring all the time (which IMO is a big problem with the FSO). I remember a long time back we had an FSO where I flew with Spit5s across the channel and were bounced by many 190s and 109s. We let some of them go, and they let some of us go. The point was not to kill for score. The point was to get the job done as a team. That's the kind of sentiment that FSO should encourage, IMO. The positive stuff.
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Boxboy on October 25, 2009, 04:43:08 AM
While I like the landing bonus, I wonder about the scoring since the side with the greatest numbers has a larger chance for a larger score at the outset.

I wonder if a percentage of the total aircraft wouldn't be a better yard stick to "level" the table??
Title: Re: Frame Survival Bonus
Post by: Baumer on October 25, 2009, 01:53:51 PM
I use a rather long and involved process that I will show in detail after the FSO to explain every step.

But the most important thing for everyone to remember is this;

My scoring process is designed to reward the side that does a better job completing it's objectives (both attack and defense) and getting the most pilots to land successfully.

With my scoring methodology, the only factor I really have to focus on, is ensuring that each side has the appropriate ordinance capability to carry out their objectives. As you can imagine with most allied versus axis setups (with the aircraft we have) it can be complicated to ensure that both sides can use approximately the same percentages to destroy their targets.