Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on February 02, 2001, 07:36:00 PM
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A few months before Robert Johnson died (December 27th, 1998), I conducted nearly five hours of telephone interviews with Bob over the course of three weeks. I managed to record all but the first hour. During our conversations, we discussed the tactics he employed while battling the Luftwaffe. The following are some excerpts of our discussions:
CCJ: I have read an article about you and the tactics you used, that described you as one of the first fighter pilots to truly fight in the vertical plane.
RSJ: I don't know about that, there were others who fought that way.
CCJ: But not in the Thunderbolt....
RSJ: No, I guess not, at least when we first went operational.
CCJ: Can you describe how you used vertical maneuvering to your advantage, especially in the heavy-weight Jug?
RSJ: I think that you need to understand that everyone thought that the P-47 was a deathtrap. RAF pilots told us that we wouldn't have a chance against single-engine fighters. Those of us who had been flying the P-47 for a while knew otherwise, but there was nothing we could say that would convince the British, or the guys in the 4th.
CCJ: Guys in the 4th? You mean the 4th Fighter Group?
RSJ: Yeah. They were not at all happy trading in their Spitfires for the Thunderbolt.
CCJ: Didn't the 56th surrender their P-47s to the 4th after you arrived?
RSJ: Yes, we were told that we would be getting new planes.
CCJ: I'll bet that struck a nerve in the 56th.
RSJ: It sure did. We already had hundreds of hours in P-47Bs and Cs. No other group of pilots in the ETO had anywhere near our experience in the Thunderbolt. So naturally, we were not happy to hand them over to another Group. In retrospect, it was obviously a good idea. We realized as soon as we got into combat that there was no substitute for actual combat missions under your belt. Anyway, we trained the 4th on the Thunderbolt and then waited for what seemed like forever, to get our new planes.
CCJ: To get back to tactics, how did your tactics evolve?
RSJ: My tactics were rooted in what I had learned flying the P-47 in the States. We could always find some Navy Corsairs over Long Island Sound. We would bounce them, or they would try to bounce us. Usually, we had the advantage in height so the Corsairs were a lot busier than us.
CCJ: I take it that you seldom let an opportunity to jump them go waste?
RSJ: No, we usually went straight for them.
CCJ: Didn't they see you rolling in?
RSJ: Sometimes. We tried to use the sun to hide in. If they didn't spot us, we would lay it on them good. Their first hint that we were there was when we tore through them at high speed and zoomed back up above them.
CCJ: How did they react?
RSJ: They would usually scatter every which way. We would come back down on them again, but they would be alert now and break into us.
CCJ: I guess that is the point where it would break down into a big brawl?
RSJ: It did at first. The Corsair was just a fast as the Thunderbolt was around 20,000 feet., and it was very maneuverable. As we mixed it up and lost altitude, the Corsair became a real handful to outfly with our P-47Bs. I discovered that the Corsair pilots did not like fighting up hill. What I mean is, they would not or maybe could not follow you if you pulled the nose up into a steep climb. I realized that the Corsair couldn't climb any better than the P-47, and would tend to spin out of a vertical stall. I also found that that any P-47, even the P-47B, could out-dive the Corsair. So that gave me two important advantages that I would use every chance I got.
CCJ: So these mock dogfights helped you learn how to exploit the inherent strengths of the Thunderbolt.
RSJ: Yes, very much so.
CCJ: What about facing the Fw 190 and Messerschmitts?
RSJ: The Focke Wulf reminded me of the Corsair. It was much smaller of course, but they both had similar maneuverability. It wasn't quite as fast, but turned well. It was unusual to find Focke Wulfs above us. Generally, we held the advantage in height.
The Me 109 was another story. They could often be seen up above 35,000 feet.
CCJ: What was the biggest mistake a German pilot could make?
RSJ: Trying to escape in a dive or split-S.
CCJ: Why?
RSJ: Because they were not going to out-run the Thunderbolt in a dive.
CCJ: You could catch them without a problem.
RSJ: I could catch them in nothing flat.
CCJ: Really?
RSJ: Absolutely. One thing about the 190, if the pilot continued his dive below 7 or 8 thousand feet, he could not pull out before he hit the ground. I guess they had compressibility problems or the elevators got too stiff. Whatever the problem was, I watched several of them pancake in before they could level off.
CCJ: What about the Thunderbolt?
RSJ: It did not have that problem down that low. Up high, above 25,000 feet, yes, I could get into compressibility and the elevators locked up like they were in concrete. But once you got down to thicker air, you regained control.
CCJ: So, what would you do if suddenly discovered a German fighter on your tail?
RSJ: you mean in close?
CCJ: Yes.
RSJ: That depended a lot on how fast the German was going. If he was moving much faster, I'd simply side-step him by rolling.
The German would whiz right on by and I would firewall the throttle and take off after him. If he was a smart German, he would climb straight ahead. If he was a dumb German, he would try to turn. If he turns, his higher speed will make for a wide turn, and I will cut across and be all over him. If he dives, I can follow and eventually catch up. Now, if the German's speed was close to mine, then I had another emergency maneuver that always worked for me.
CCJ: And, that was?
RSJ: I would pull the nose straight up into a vertical rolling spiral, usually to the left. You would stall out, but so would the guy behind you. That killed his advantage.
CCJ: So, what you are describing sounds like a rolling hammerhead stall, right?
RSJ: That's a pretty good description.
CCJ: So what happens next?
RSJ: Well, the enemy would stall first because the Jug's mass allowed to retain its,
er...
CCJ: Energy?
RSJ: Yes, energy. The P-47's mass allowed it to retain its energy better and it stalled a few seconds after the enemy plane. The German would snap over and head down. Except, now I was right behind him and there was no getting away.
CCJ: Wouldn't he still be directly behind you?
RSJ: No. Pulling up so suddenly always caught them by surprise. The second or two that it took for them to react took care of that.
CCJ: Why did you roll?
RSJ: Because that killed my speed faster than the enemy if he didn't, which gained me the advantage of being to his rear as he zoomed up. If he rolled too, that also worked to my advantage because it killed his speed faster than mine.
CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what, if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb. What if he didn't follow?
RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I would be waiting for him.
If he turned either left or right, I would be on him in a few seconds.
CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you pulled up.
RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep going. They all tried to follow.
CCJ: How many got away after falling for your trap?
RSJ: I really can't say for sure. Some got away because he had friends to cover his tail. Besides, that maneuver was not so much to get him, but to prevent him from getting me. In that respect, it always worked.
CCJ: Much has been written about the incredible roll rate of the Fw 190. Was it as good as they say?
RSJ: The 190 rolled very fast. But, so did the Thunderbolt.
CCJ: But not as quickly as the Focke Wulf.
RSJ: I would say just as fast. I never had a 190 out-roll my Jug. Never.
CCJ: What about a situation where you end up in rolling scissors with a Focke Wulf? Do you follow him by reversing the turn too?
RSJ: No. Whenever you get into a series of reverses, the airplane tends to mush-out a bit when you reverse your turn. The Jug tended to mush a bit more than the 190. The way to avoid this was roll into the reverse.
CCJ: I'm not sure I follow you.
RSJ: Picture this in your mind. The 190 rolls into a hard left. You follow, firing as he crosses your guns. Suddenly, he reverses his turn, hard right. Rather than reverse, you continue rolling left until you are in a right bank, just like the 190. Now, pull hard. No mushing. If he reverses again, you roll left and fire as he crosses your guns again. If he doesn't reverse, I pull the nose high and roll out behind him.
CCJ: A high yo-yo?
RSJ: Of a sorts, yes. Continuing the roll simply eliminated the mushing caused by reversing a turn and I could would get a clear shot every time the enemy reversed.
CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?
RSJ: It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.
CCJ: I remember reading where you thought that your P-47 was the fastest fighter in the ETO.
RSJ: I still believe that it was.
CCJ: Really?
RSJ: Sure. My second Jug, a D-5 was the best P-47 that I ever flew, and I flew them all, including the P-47M which the 56th got near the end of the war.
CCJ: What made this one Thunderbolt so fast?
RSJ: Several things. My crew sanded every joint smooth, and waxed it to a high gloss. Factory technical reps showed my crew chief, Pappy Gould, how to adjust the wastegates to keep the boost pressure higher than normal. My D-5, which I named Lucky, had water injection. I never used the water injection in combat. I didn't need it. From time to time I'd switch it on, push the throttle up to 72" of manifold pressure and the head rest would smack me from behind. I would let her run for a few minutes just for the fun of it.
CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?
RSJ: Of course.
CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?
RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.
CCJ: 300 indicated?
RSJ: Yes.
CCJ: What was your altitude?
RSJ: I guess it was right around 32,000 feet.
CCJ: Geez, thats well over 450 mph!
RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470.
CCJ: Maybe you did have the fastest fighter in the ETO after all.
RSJ: Like I said, Lucky was the fastest.
CCJ: What ever happened to Lucky?
RSJ: She was lost in a mid-air collision over the North Sea. I don't recall the pilot's name who was flying her on that ramrod. I was very upset. Lucky got at least 24 enemy aircraft and was the best Jug I ever flew. She was trouble free and I never had a single abort while flying her.
CCJ: Bob, one final item before I let you go tonight.
RSJ: Sure.
CCJ: Is it true that you flew two 25 hour tour extensions after your 25th victory, and that you never were involved in a single combat during that time?
RSJ: Basically, yes. I took a 25 hour extension with the idea that as soon as I got 2 more enemy aircraft, I would stop there and go home. After the 25 hours were up and I hadn't had a chance to even fire at an enemy airplane, so I convinced the brass to give me another 25 hour extension under the same understanding. Finally, on the last mission of that tour, I got two more and they sent me home.
CCJ: Why do you think that German fighters became so hard to come by at that time. When was that, in April and May of 1944?
RSJ: I can't say for sure, but we now know that the long range of the P-38 and P-51 caused the Luftwaffe to pull back many of their fighter squadrons deep into Germany. This makes sense when you think that we could put up over 600 P-47s for a ramrod. If they pull back beyond the range of the Jugs, we won't see much of them. Another thing was simple bad luck. When the Germans did come up to fight, they attacked the bombers well away from our assigned area. So, it really was a combination of factors.
CCJ: So, what was the date of your last two victories?
RSJ: May 8th, 1944.
CCJ: Well, Bob, I'll let you go now. Thanks for your time. This will make for a terrific article.
RSJ: It was my pleasure.
CCJ: Are you up for another discussion in a week or two?
RSJ: If you don't mind my long stories, sure. You can call almost anytime.
CCJ: Believe me, it's an honor for me. By the way, Art Heiden, your remember me talking about Art, Art wants to talk to you about Jack. Do you mind if I pass your number to him?
RSJ: Please do.
CCJ: Well, thanks again and have a good evening.
RSJ: You to.
I will post more of our discussions after I get it all transposed from the tapes.
My regards,
Widewing
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TY very much Widewing. I read several books from members of the 56th fighter group, or books about them. Bob Johnson thought very highly of the Jug. He stated that after the fied Mod of the big Prop that his jug could climb with anything the LW could put up. Well, I wonder if that was true or just his total faith in that AC! He also stated in his book about the roll rate of his jug.
anyway, appreciate the good read
<S>
ammo
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that Lucky D-5 sounds like a hell of a jug (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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<exerpt from Wobble's Jug tactics>
"press enter 3 times,
climb into F6f."
I have never been able to grasp the Jug, I can fly almost everything pretty well but I CANNOT fly the jug <shrug>
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Awesome!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
S!
Rocket
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Wow.
Thanks WW.
Sounds like we should perk Lucky.
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I'm speachless for this is some fantasic reading. I don't know how to thank you Widewing. <S> But I'll think of something (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
TY very much Widewing. I read several books from members of the 56th fighter group, or books about them. Bob Johnson thought very highly of the Jug. He stated that after the fied Mod of the big Prop that his jug could climb with anything the LW could put up. Well, I wonder if that was true or just his total faith in that AC! He also stated in his book about the roll rate of his jug.
anyway, appreciate the good read
<S>
ammo
I was somewhat skeptical about Johnson's insistance about the P-47s rolling ability. However, there are two things to keep in mind. Johnson was never discussing a snap roll. He describes a tightened barrel roll, more of corkscrew spiral than a snap roll along the linear axis. The second thing was related to me by Gabby Gabreski. Actually, he was talking to someone else and I was simply eavesdropping. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gabby said that Johnson was one of the strongest men he had ever met. He described Johnson as having forearms like "Popeye". Considering that one limiting factor in high speed rolling is the ability of the pilot to deflect the ailerons, I must wonder if Johnson's impressive upper-body strength gave him an advantage.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, thank you for this--made my day. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/uns_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Widewing, thanks a lot for those readings, will have the other ones with great pleasure.
What I noted, but it's my own opinion only, u may not share it, is that most Aces described tactics that would not really work in the MA. I think it's related to the fact that we have way more combat hours than them and most of the germans they encountered were newbies at the end of the war.
But the thinking process is the same for them and us (I'm not comparing me as an ace, far from that), but we all analysed what was the best way to fight into our beloved ride using the weackness of the eni plane. Our luck is that we can even testflight the "eni plane" to see strenght/weackness.
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thanks wildwing , wonderful stuff
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Absolutely outstanding widewing, jesus the thrill of being lucky enough to talk with Johnson damn!
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Thx Widewing.Good stuff!
danish
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Thought you might be interesred in this little tale, as an apropos to P47 versus 109.
From Priens great JG53 books vol. 3
_____________________________ __
26 December 1944: 11 and IV Gruppen were sent patrol-
ling for enemy fighter-bombers , while 111 Gruppe apparently
saw no action.
Maj. Mcimberg also had to lead the Gruppe on this day as
by now none of his veteran Staffelkapitdne were still available.
Oblt. Rollwage had been assigned to II/JG 106 and Oblt. Seeger
had gone on leave, and to make things even worse Hptm. Ham-
mer fell ill and was put out of action indefinitely. "Jule"
Mcimberg's description of the mission on this the second day
of Christmas (Boxing Day) 1944 appears below; however there
was a story behind the mission as Fritz Adelmann, then a
Feldwebel and mechanic in charge of Hptm. Alfred Hammer's
machine, described:
"Since his own machine was apparently unservice-
able on this day, prior to takeoff Major Meimberg de-
manded Hptm. Hammer's aircraft; however the latter was
very attached to his 'Yellow 1' and had ordered it reported
unserviceable 'just in case,' even though it was in tip-top
condition. He simply couldn't bear the idea of it being
crashed by someone else. It was a beauty too, polished to
a high gloss, equipped with a high-altitude engine and a
gun camera. Major Meimberg brushed aside my objec-
tions and so '1' was rolled over to the Gruppenstab, where
it was checked over and found serviceable - as it turned
out there were no repercussions from my phony unser-
viceable report."
In fact Alfred Hammer's aircraft was the same Bf 109 G-
14/AS that he had been issued at Hustedt at the end of July
1944 and which he had flown on most missions since. Now
Julius Meimberg's account:
"While in the process of taking off, shortly before
liftoff, 1 saw that a bunch of enemy fighters - 1 think they
were Spitfires - were moving into position to attack us
from behind. They caught us at the most dangerous mo-
ment; one is helpless during takeoff and landing, unable
to evade an attack. It was too late to abort the takeoff and
so after lifting off 1 tried to get away through the valleys at
low-level and then climb. 1 was alone. My Gruppe had
been completely scattered by the surprise attack and sev-
eral pillars of dark smoke near the airfield made me sus-
pect the worse. 1 was fuming, full of rage that they had
been able to run roughshod over us like that.
Meanwhile 1 had reached an altitude of perhaps five
to six thousand meters (it may have been somewhat less)
and tried to figure out what was happening while hanging
all alone in the bright sunshine above the wintry landscape.
At once 1 sighted a flight of Thunderbolts beneath me;
they were flying in line astern, obviously searching for
worthwhile targets on the ground. In any case it wasn't
very difficult at all for me to come down from behind and
position myself behind the last one. 1 fired, and the effect
was the same as if 1 had stirred up a homet's nest. The
other three turned and opened fire, but with my speed ad-
vantage 1 was able to climb back up to safety. The Thun-
derbolt was inferior to the Me 109 in terms of climbing
ability and indeed we had our own tactic for each enemy
aircraft type. With its great weight the P-47 was simply
faster in the dive, consequently we could not evade it by
diving. As well it had tremendous firepower and - most of
all: where there was one Thunderbolt there were others.
And so 1 climbed back up, had a victory, and resumed
my circling. Soon 1 spotted another flight of Thunderbolts
below me, again in line astern, again searching for targets
on the ground, and again 1 got the trailing machine and
was able to climb away. Full of anger, 1 was intent on
avenging in my own way the attack that had struck our
Gruppe while taking off.
1 repeated the procedure with a third flight; but this
time 1 got too close to the P-47 1 was firing at, so that
pieces of the downed bird flew about my ears, and when 1
pulled up 1 was trailing white smoke. Once again 1 lamented
the absence of a radiator shutoff valve. This time 1 de-
cided at once to bail out, for trying to descend to safety in
my crippled bird would have been hopeless as the sky was
now full of aircraft, all of them hostile. As well with a
damaged radiator 1 had little time; in only a few minutes a
piston would seize and that would be it; it just didn't work
without coolant.
1 was quickly overtaken by the other fighters as 1 was
preparing to bail out. They caught me in a left turn; a burst
went straight through the aircraft and 1 changed direction.
After the experiences we had had with being shot at while
in parachutes - especially by the Americans - 1 let myself
fall and did not pull the ripcord until - true to our old rule
- 1 could either see the chickens or count the branches. 1
sailed toward a farmhouse but then to my horror 1 realized
that for the last few meters 1 was being blown toward a
large tree. 1 came down through the tree without doing
any damage. There was no need to go into the bent-knee
position, for the chute had caught in the tree and 1 was
deposited quite gently on to the ground.
1 had come down right next to the 'Schaichhof,' a
large farm south of Rutesheim/Leonberg; farm workers
came rushing out of the house and they were speaking
Polish or Russian - POWs who had been forced to work
on the farm. Blood was oozing out of my right fur-lined
boot, and so the workers carried me to the house where 1
was received by the farmer. He took me into the 'cold
magnificence' - the good room which was usually un-
heated. The Christmas tree was still standing and the gifts
lay on the table. 1 was laid on a sofa. Soon a civilian came
in who had arrived by bicycle - he still had the trouser
clips on his legs. He introduced himself as Dr. Hartmann,
the father of 'Bubi' Hartmann; he asked me if 1 knew his
son. Of course 1 had heard of him, but at the time 1 had
never met him in person. Dr. Hartmann then proceeded to
apply a temporary dressing and a short time later 1 was
driven to the hospital in B6blingen. There they put on a
plaster cast, and for the next few days 1 had to stay in bed
with my leg in a cast."
The three P-47s which Maj. Meimberg shot down were
victories 48 to 50.
11 Gruppe's losses were considerable. 6/JG 53 had two
pilots killed: Oblt. Ludorf was shot down immediately after
taking off from Rutesheim; he bailed out but was too low for
his parachute to open. As a result Leo Ludorf fell to his death
near Rutesheim. The other victim was Gefr. Meermann, who
was also shot down and crashed to his death in his "Yellow 8"
about 500 meters east of Wimsheim. 8 Staffel reported one
wounded: Gefr. Ruland was forced to belly-land his battle-dam-
aged "Blue 6" near Flacht, a few kilometers northwest of
Rutesheim. He suffered serious injuries in the forced landing.
Altogether II/JG 53 lost six of its Messerschmitts shot down
immediately after takeoff; two pilots escaped injury, either
bailing out successfully or making a forced landing somewhere.
Precise details are not known.
_______________________
"Jule" Meimberg survived the war, and still lives - and flyes on occation - till this day.
For more on Meimberg: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/6458/meimberg.html (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/6458/meimberg.html)
regards
danish
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After the experiences we had had with being shot at while in parachutes - especially by the Americans - 1 let myself
fall and did not pull the ripcord until - true to our old rule - 1 could either see the chickens or count the branches.
HTC has again succesfully managed to model reality.
Bail low, and ya might live.
Bail high, and you'll get shot.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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oops. wrong topic
[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Frenchy, we have icons. They did not. We don't die, but they certainly did.
Johnson was also flying against the cream of the crop on the western front from
1943 into 44. He left in May 44, not 45, so I would not saying he was running into
newbies and low ait time replacmement pilots. 27 kills, all airborne and against
a well trained and battle experienced foe. I wonder how many more aircaft he would
have shot down over the course of the next year had he continued flying in action.
I have no doubt he would have been the all time top US ace, unless he'd also been
given the same straffing duty which was to account for more USAAF fighter pilots
being shot down than anything else by far in Europe.
We can never, ever duplicate what they went through at all. And because of that we
will never see realistic behavior online. In scenarios you will see similar
tactics used, but that's about as close as you get, IMO.
Thanks for adding that story in Danish. I enjoy reading all interviews and
stories, regardless of which side they were on during the war.
-Westy
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Thanks for that Widewing! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok, I am now off to bribe my crewchief to adjust the wategate pressures on my Jug. I want to see what this beast will do with 72" of induction pressure! Holy crap.
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Thanks for that Widewing! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok, I am now off to bribe my crewchief to adjust the wategate pressures on my Jug. I want to see what this beast will do with 72" of induction pressure! Holy crap.
In support of Johnson's claim, I present P-47 pilot Frank Klibbe, who has described his T-Bolt, 'Little Chief' as being 'souped up' with wastegate adjustments that allowed "illegal manifold pressures up to 72 inches."
Bob Coiro of the P-47 Alumni Association estimates that Johnson's engine was probably pushing in excess of 2,600 hp, if not more. We do know that Republic Aviation spent a great of time and money endurance testing R-2800 'B' series engines at much higher than normal boost pressures. Generally speaking, these engines held up very well at 72 in/Hg for long periods.
Of course, we have to consider the ramafications of applying wastegate adjustments to the R-2800 'C' series engines in the P-47M. The M was capable of 470-475 mph @ 32,000 feet as delivered to the AAF. This engine was rated for 2,800 hp at 72 in/hg in WEP. What happens if you pull 75 inches, or even 80 inches of MAP? Well, we just happen to know, because Republic actually tested engines at these power settings.
Republic's Chief Test Pilot, Lowery Brabham revealed that the engineering staff had run one engine at 3,600 hp (3,000 rpm @ 80 in/Hg)without "any reported problems."
To support the possiblity that M models were 'souped up', we need only listen to some of the pilots who flew the P-47M with the 56th. I believe that it was Major Michael Jackson of the 62nd FS who insisted that he saw level speeds nudging 500 mph. In light of the power output capability of the R-2800 'C' series, along with the simple and generally known method of producing remarkably high power, I don't doubt Jackson's claim one bit.
My regards,
Widewing
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S! all
Bob Johnson was one of the most deadly fighter pilots ever to fly in the Western European Theater. His 28 kills were accomplished in only 92 sorties for a kill to sortie ratio of 1-3.28. That's better than most of the German Aces, including Hartmann, who got his 352 victories in 1,425 sorties, for a 1-4.05 ratio. And as mentioned above, Johnson flew from July of 1943 to May 1944, at a time when the Luftwaffe pilot skill level was very high. At the rate he was scoring at the end of his tour, if he had been returned for an additional crack at the Germans, its likely he would have scored in the 40+ range as did Richard Bong. Bong and Johnson were tied at 28, when both were returned to the States for a Propaganda tour. (They had both just broken Eddie Rickenbacker's old record)
As far hotrodding engines is concerned:
Americans had grown up in a society which was much more heavily mechanized than Europeans were accustomed to. Tinkering with the family car, or farm vehicles was common, and 'doing it yourself' was standard practice. Americans were comfortable with engines and the concept of 'hotrodding' them for additional performance. Many of the mechanics in the Army Air Force had been previously employed in industry or car repair shops.
It was natural to apply the same techniques to the aircraft which they were in charge of. Additionally, the pilots themselves were also mechanically conversant, and expected this kind of tinkering, and encouraged their crew chiefs to engage in 'hotrodding'. When you combine this attitude of 'can do', with an overbuilt engine like the Pratt and Whitney Radial, you have a guarantee that most of the P-47 aircraft in the hangers of USAAF squadrons were not running factory spec levels of boost.
And that would explain why Johnson and many other P-47 pilots insist their Jugs could out-spiral climb any German aircraft they ran into.
By the way, in regards to roll rate: The Jug does outroll the FW190 at speeds over around 375mph TAS. If you read the accounts of Johnson's combats, he is almost always operating at high speeds.
Cheers Buzzsaw
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Enjoyed the interview: thanks for taking the time to post it.
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When I think of Robert Johnson I often think of how Fate can make heroes or non-entities of us all.
Remember Johnson's early mission where his Jug was shot absolutely full of 20mm rounds? I think at that stage he had one victory under his belt. He desperately tried to bail out but was unable to as a 20mm round had jammed his canopy shut.
Had that single round missed, Johnson would have bailed and become a POW, and we never would have heard of him.
A single 20mm round connects, in the right place, and the result is the highest scoring ace in the USAAF.
------------------
=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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Turns out colour plant 25 from my new osprey book is "Lucky".. Graphic on the nose is of a hand flipping the finger.
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Originally posted by Widewing:
I was somewhat skeptical about Johnson's insistance about the P-47s rolling ability. However, there are two things to keep in mind. Johnson was never discussing a snap roll. He describes a tightened barrel roll, more of corkscrew spiral than a snap roll along the linear axis. The second thing was related to me by Gabby Gabreski. Actually, he was talking to someone else and I was simply eavesdropping. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gabby said that Johnson was one of the strongest men he had ever met. He described Johnson as having forearms like "Popeye". Considering that one limiting factor in high speed rolling is the ability of the pilot to deflect the ailerons, I must wonder if Johnson's impressive upper-body strength gave him an advantage.
My regards,
Widewing
Hmm, havent even considered this. Very possible. BTW i met Gabby myself at a recent convention in Raliegh NC. Super Guy, and the name Gabby seems to fit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Hub Zemke acknowledged that the Jug was inferior to the 190 and 109 (keep in mind these were 43-44 crates) in turning and climbing ability under 20,000 ft. He described a dogfight in which he and a German Flyer fought to the deck (the German was in a 190) and he quickly realized he was not in a good situation. He blew his altitude anvantage and after 2 passes and tried to fight the guy in climbing turns. The 190 quickly gained an advantage and after a couple of headon passes he was out of ammo. He decided to exit the fight, and to his relief the German did the same in the opposite direction. Apparently out of ammo also. Now as far as the jugs roll rate, I havent read anything other than what Bob Johnson has said to quantify a really high rate of roll. I know that Hub mentioned it in a book I read but dont recall him saying the jug held an advantage over the LW ac. I just mailed the book back to a squadie, maybe he can chime in with a rference from Hub. Now Hub Zemke was a genious and a nutsy type of fella to disreguard early 8th AF brass directives on how they would go about escort duty. He was the Benchmark on success in the roll of bomber escort duty. Everyoneone that served as pilots in the 56th FG owes much to him and his way of thinking.
<S>
ammo
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S! all
In regards to the controversy as to whether a P47d had a spiral climb which could defeat a German aircraft. Certainly the 109's had a better spiral climb. But as far as the 190 is concerned...
The following is an excerpt from a 1943 USAAF test comparison between a Fw190A5 (I believe it was an A5/U8 as the picture shows no outer wing Cannon or cowling Mg) and a P-47D-4. The A-5 had its two inner wing Cannon removed and equivalent weights substituted as well as weights to represent the outer wing cannon and the cowling machine guns. The FW190 was described: "...as in exceptionally good condition for a captured airplane, and developed 42 inches manifold pressure on takeoff." (equivalent to 1.45 atas) The P-47 was equipped with Water Injection but not with a paddle bladed propellor. It had the early 'toothpick' propellor.
The tests were done between S.L. and 15,000ft. The pilot of the P-47 had 200 hours in P-40's and 5 hours in the P-47. The Fw190 Pilot had 300 hours in twin engine, 500 hours in single engine and 5 hours in the Fw190. Four separate flights of one hour each were conducted. All speeds are in IAS.
>>>>>>>>>
Recorded Results
1) Acceleration
(a) 210mph to 275mph at 2,000ft. The Fw190 accelerated faster than the P-47 and gained approx. 200yds during the acceleration.
(b) 210mph to 275mph at 5,000ft. Results: Same.
(c) 200mph to full power at 5,000ft. The Fw190 accelerated faster than the P-47 initially and gained about 200yds, but at a speed of 330mph the P-47 rapidly overtook the Fw190 and gained about 2,000yds very quickly and was still accelerating. Water injection was used by the P-47.
(d) 220mph to 300mph with full throttle at 15,000ft. Again the Fw190 initially gained about 200yds but the P-47 quickly overtook it. The FW high speed supercharger cut in automatically at this altitude, and this supercharger seemed to cut in at lower altitudes when a speed in excess of 340mph was attained by diving.
2) Climb
(a) 2,000ft to 7,000ft, starting at 250mph. Both airplanes were pulled up rapidly to the angle of maximum climb and held until altitude of 8,500 was reached. The Fw190 climbed faster than the P-47 through the first 1500 ft, but the P-47 quickly overtook it and steadily outclimbed it by 500 ft per minute. The P-47 used water injection and slightly overheated, while the FW190 did not overheat.
(b) 10,000ft to 15,000ft, starting at 250mph. Again the Fw190 initially outclimbed the P-47 through the first 1,000ft, however the P-47 rapidly overtook and reached 15,000ft while the Focke Wulf was at 14,500ft.
3) Diving
(a) 10,000-3,000ft, starting at 250mph diving at an angle of 65 degrees with constant throttle setting. The Fw190 pulled away rapidly at the beginning, but the P-47 passed it at 3,000ft with a much greater speed and had a decidedly better angle of pull out.
4) Turning
(a) Turning and handling in excess of 250mph. The two airplanes alternately turned on each other's tail, holding in the turns as tightly as possible and alternating the turns first left then right. The P-47 easily outturned the Fw190 at 10,000ft and had to throttle back in order to keep from overrunning the FW190. The superiority of the P-47 in turning increased with altitude. The FW190 was very heavy in fore and aft control, vibrated excessively and tended to blackout the pilot.
(b) Turning and handling below 250mph. Turns were made so rapidly that it was impossible for the aircraft to accelerate. In making the usual rather flat turns in a horizontal plane, the FW190 was able to hang onto its propellor and turn inside the P-47. The FW190 was also able to accelerate suddenly and change to a more favourable position during the turn. However it was found the P-47 could get on the tail of the Fw190 by making a figure 8 in a vertical plane. In this maneuver, the P-47 , which was being pursued by the Fw190 in level flight attempted to execute a series of climbs, slow turns, and dives which would end up with the positions reversed and the P-47 on the tail of the FW190. The maneuver started with a a steep climbing turn to near stalling point, followed by a falloff and fast dive which ended in a pullout and fast climbing sweep whch again carried the plane up to the stall and fall off point. The P-47 built up more speed in the dive than the FW190 with the result that the Thunderbolt also climbed faster than the FW190 and also higher. The P-47 pilot merely waited for the FW190 to reach its stalling point below him and turned very neatly on the tail of the falling away FW190. With its much greater diving acceleration, the P-47 soon caught the FW190 in the second dive of his maneuver.
Conclusions
The P-47 with its tremendous firepower is at least as good as the FW190 at low altitude. There should be no question about engaging the FW190 in dogfight at low altitude; but it should be remembered the FW190 is a good airplane and has advantages at slow speeds.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You will notice the test describes a tactic which could be used to defeat the 190. This spiral climb technique mirrors almost EXACTLY the technique which Robert Johnson describes having used to defeat the 190's he encountered.
And of course, the test results would have been much more in the P-47's favour had the paddle blade propellor been used.
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<grabs a pack of smokes, makes a pot of coffee......waits for RAM to spot this post about the 190> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
This outta be good! An American bird doing anything better than LW iron...........BLASPHEMOUS! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The Jug shoulda done better than the 190, since, as we all know, it was descendant of the FW190, as were all planes used in WW2. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
<Sits back and waits for the fireworks>
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buzz, think you can provide a link to that report and find out if it was an A5 or a heavy A8?
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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<S> - what a great post! Thanks so much for the information! For those interestes, Robert Johnson has a biography out that is just incredible. The name of it escapes my memory, but check with akcurly sometime, he has the book.
Now if only we could get the Jug modeled like its supposed to be :P
Nimitz
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The F4F Wildcats defending Henderson field had their turbosuperchargers wired open. The turbos weren't normally cleared for operation below 10,000 feet, but the ground crews did it anyway. They needed the performance boost. According to an article over at The History Net (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1998/09982_text.htm) doing this burned out the engines after 25 to 50 hours of operation. The article is pretty good, I suggest you read it.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/headbanger.gif)
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Originally posted by flakbait:
The F4F Wildcats defending Henderson field had their turbosuperchargers wired open. The turbos weren't normally cleared for operation below 10,000 feet, but the ground crews did it anyway. They needed the performance boost. According to an article over at The History Net (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1998/09982_text.htm) doing this burned out the engines after 25 to 50 hours of operation. The article is pretty good, I suggest you read it.
Ah, I don't want to cause any upset, but the F4F Wildcat was never fitted with a turbo-supercharger. The F4F-3 and F4F-4 were powered by the Wright R-1830 with a two-speed, two-stage mechanical supercharger.
The author of the above named magazine article made a noteworthy error in his nomenclature. Most likely, what he had been told or read was that the crew chiefs of the Wildcats rigged the superchargers so that they were always in 'high blower'. This causes the engine to be over-boosted at altitudes were 'low blower' should be used. Normally, 'neutral blower was used for takeoff, 'low blower' used till about 18,000 ft, where 'high blower would be engaged. Flying at full throttle/high blower at low altitudes for long durations will inevitably cause engine damage due to detonation, especially with the R-1830 which was not as over engineered like the P&W R-1820.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing:
Ah, I don't want to cause any upset, but the F4F Wildcat was never fitted with a turbo-supercharger. The F4F-3 and F4F-4 were powered by the Wright R-1830 with a two-speed, two-stage mechanical supercharger.
The author of the above named magazine article made a noteworthy error in his nomenclature. Most likely, what he had been told or read was that the crew chiefs of the Wildcats rigged the superchargers so that they were always in 'high blower'. This causes the engine to be over-boosted at altitudes were 'low blower' should be used. Normally, 'neutral blower was used for takeoff, 'low blower' used till about 18,000 ft, where 'high blower would be engaged. Flying at full throttle/high blower at low altitudes for long durations will inevitably cause engine damage due to detonation, especially with the R-1830 which was not as over engineered like the P&W R-1820.
My regards,
Widewing
And besides that...there's no need to rig a turbocharger, they are always on! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Moo! to fanatics, Neigh! to everyone else.
-- Bessy
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
Dirty Turd Poop Group www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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S! St Santa
The aircraft was a 190A5. All of the aircraft tested during the war by either the USAAF or the British Air Fighting Developement Unit (AFDU) were earlier model 190A's. They included A3's, A4's and A5's. The A8 was not tested in comparison with Allied aircraft. Most of the aircraft tested were A4's and A5's which were captured when operating in the night Jabo fighter bomber role over southern England in 1942-1943. Most of them only had the wing root cannon. The exception was Faber's A3, which was a air superiority model, fully equipped with four cannon and 2 Mgs. All of the aircraft were captured by the British and test aircraft were then supplied to the USAAF. All the test aircraft were in perfect condition, after their pilots mistakenly landed at British Fields when their pilots became confused.
For more information on the German aircraft captured as well as many excerpts from various AFDU tests, I would reccommend reading "The Captive Luftwaffe"
As far as the particular test I listed above, I don't have a web site or URL for it. I transcribed it a year ago from a book called "Thunderbolt", author I am unsure of. The A5 tested, was the same one used in a test vs. the F4U, F6f and P51b the results of which has been posted on this board before.
A comment on P-47's performance generally:
The models used in AH are those manufactured after the re-design in early 1944. During this re-design, the bubble top canopy was added, as well as pylons for bombs, strengthening of the under section of the fuselage for carrying more bombs, and the addition of more internal fuel tanks. This redesign basically set the mold for the ground attack role which the P-47 found itself assigned to. This new model began with the P-47D-25 series. The redesign also added nearly 1000 lbs when the aircraft was loaded, bringing it up to approx. 14,500. These models all came standard with the Paddle Blade prop and Water Injection.
The D models prior to this weighed in around 13,500. These were the Razorback P-47D4 through D23. The early serials of this group did not have the Hamilton Standard Paddle Blade Prop or Water Injection, but were upgraded beginning in December of 1943.
As far as I am concerned, the D4 through D23 were the "Hotships" as far as P-47's were concerned. (not counting the P-47M) They had low weight, but the advantages of the upgraded performance available with Water injection and the superior propellor. Bob Johnson flew these aircraft predominantly. If you look at wingloading for these models, with a wing area of 300 Sq. Ft., it translates to 45 lbs/sq ft with tanks fully loaded. Considering the P-47's rarely flew with full tanks when in combat, due to the ranges at which they were operating, then you can see they became quite competitive in actual combat situations.
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Interesting info, buzz
If it's true, then the P47 isn't modelled correctly - it climbs only marginally better than A8, and has a marginal speed advance.
Zoom cilmbs between the two indicate a small advantage to the P47's advantage, but not enough to allow a spiral climb tactics described in your first post. And doing so with a G10 up yer rear is an invitation to disaster.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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S! Wid
These P-47's are probably not far off, except perhaps in their ability to turn at high speeds. The reason is they are the heavier ground attack oriented version.
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I'd love to get my hands on a paddle blade prop razorback. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Would the engines on the F6F and F4U be able to be tuned the same way?
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Would the engines on the F6F and F4U be able to be tuned the same way?
No, not exactly. The mechanical supercharger is geared to run off of the engine. There are several different gears that provide for several different ratios, not unlike a car's transmission. Therefore, boost will vary with the speed of the supercharger compressor, which changes speeds and stages as the altitude goes up. The turbo is different in that it will be producing the same boost pressure over the entire altitude range. When an overpressure condition exists,
the wastegates open and dump that excess pressure to ambient (outside). If the wastegates are adjusted, or have their pop-off springs changed with stiffer springs, the wastegates maintain a higher pressure.
Mechanical superchargers deliver a specific pressure according to what setting is selected. Some aircraft had mechanical lockouts preventing the use of high blower at low altitudes. This can be overriden by a mechanic, but not by the pilot. I have heard that doing this leans the mixture excessively raising cylinder head temps beyond normal limits and shortens engine life dramatically. Turbochargers simply keep induction air at the same density as sea level regardless of altitude, and do not lean the mixture by elevating the density of the intake charge, as flying in high blower at low altitude does.
Have I made this easier to understand, or did I make it only more muddled?
My regards,
Widewing
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The Corsair And F6F have a differnt system to boost HP at alt then I guess. The 47 and 38? have Mechanical Superchangers and the Navy birds have Turbosuperchagers....
Different system and not as tuneable...
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Originally posted by Pongo:
The Corsair And F6F have a differnt system to boost HP at alt then I guess. The 47 and 38? have Mechanical Superchangers and the Navy birds have Turbosuperchagers....
Different system and not as tuneable...
You have it backwards. The P-38 and P-47 utilize turbosuperchargers. All Navy fighters incorporate mechanical superchargers.
Turbos use exhaust gases, impinging on a turbine, to turn a compressor. Mechanical superchargers are gear driven from the accessory drive of the engine. Turbos generate horsepower without consuming horsepower. Mechanical superchargers consume a small amount of horsepower to make horsepower. When engine revs exceed 2,000 rpm, the turbo is at maximum efficiency and its speed is controlled by a regulator. A mechanical supercharger's speed is directly related to and will vary with engine rpm.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks.
So could the allison in the P38 benifit the same way? Or not robust enough to take it?
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Just as a note, there is a penalty for using a turbo supercharger. That penalty is ducting. In order to drive the turbo, you have to duct exhaust gasses through a turbine in an efficient manner. One of the reasons the P-47 is so big is to contain all of that ducting! However, the benefit is that the P-47's turbo system gives it stable boost across the altitude range. This means that the 47's power is more consistent, and maintains power better at high altitudes.
Pongo, I don't know if the Allison was as "over engineered" as the P&W R2800 was. There was a lot of saftey margin in the engine the Jug used, meaning a good tuner could push it harder and still not have problems. Although it would shorten the service life of the engine, the lifespan under normal normal boost settings was longer than required. They could up the boost and still get plenty of life from it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's possible the Allison didn't have as much of a safety margin built into it. Pushing the Allison may have caused problems, but I'm just guessing.
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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I've read many times where P-38 pilots in the Medd. were boosting to 72" MP. Most of the engagements with the LW were under 15k.
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Originally posted by Jigster:
I've read many times where P-38 pilots in the Medd. were boosting to 72" MP. Most of the engagements with the LW were under 15k.
This was certainly done, but it did not bode well for the engines. The Allison was one of those engines that did not tolerate detonation well. Most of the engine failures experienced by the P-38s operated by the 8th Air Force were a direct result of detonation.
Down low, this becomes less of a problem because the temperature is considerably higher. However, at -50 degrees, the V-1710 suffered from the lead in the fuel coming out of solution. Since cylinders 4 and 6 always ran a bit lean, this resulted in locally elevated temperatures and ultimately,
detonation which led to broken piston rings and melted piston crowns on these two cylinders. This problem was greatly exacerbated with the P-38J, which had vastly more efficient intercoolers than previous models. This resulted in intake charge temperatures running up to 50 degrees cooler than in the P-38H (both models using the V-1710-90 & -91 engines). This was corrected with the P-38J-25-LO and the subsequent P-38L.
Again, at low altitudes, this is much less of a problem. Nonetheless, mechanics were loath to fiddle with the wastegates of the p-38. As it was, frozen turbo regulators could result in over-boosting. Moreover, the regulators were notoriously slow to respond and it was very easy to obtain high manifold pressures for brief periods.
My regards,
Widewing
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That's very special Widewing. I'm sure he was very happy to talk to you. Thank you for posting it. We wont see these people around much longer. It's very important to get their stories.
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Originally posted by Jigster:
And besides that...there's no need to rig a turbocharger, they are always on! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That is true but the waste gate controls the boost. If you kept the waste gate closed you could over boost the engine.
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S! Widewing
What is your e-mail. I'd like to post some technical material, but am unable to. Wondering if I could send it to you for posting.
Thanks Buzzbait
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Thanks.
So could the allison in the P38 benifit the same way? Or not robust enough to take it?
Higher manifold pressure will help any engine. You are increasing it's volumetric efficiency (craming more air and fuel into the same space) but for any of them it is a matter of how much for how long. Yes the Allisons could be 'hot rodded' the Unlimited hydroplanes did it for years. Those engines were pushed to twice the original horse power ratings. Mechanical modifications were made to them and they only ran for short periods of time. I guess that the long way of saying yes but with qualifications. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-07-2001).]
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S! Widewing
I left my e-mail on the URL site which your profile includes.
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S! Jim Dandy
Those Allison engines used in the Hydroplanes also had key parts replaced with aftermarket specially manufactured parts which were far more durable.
I do not think you can compare the basic strength of the Allison engines with the Pratt and Whitney Radial. The Pratt and Whitney was far more reliable and robust.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
Widewing, thanks a lot for those readings, will have the other ones with great pleasure.
What I noted, but it's my own opinion only, u may not share it, is that most Aces described tactics that would not really work in the MA. I think it's related to the fact that we have way more combat hours than them and most of the germans they encountered were newbies at the end of the war.
But the thinking process is the same for them and us (I'm not comparing me as an ace, far from that), but we all analysed what was the best way to fight into our beloved ride using the weackness of the eni plane. Our luck is that we can even testflight the "eni plane" to see strenght/weackness.
I think your right. We get to go up and die time and time again and learn from it. They didn't.
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Thanks all of you for the excellent explenations and ellaborations.
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punt!
(http://www.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/johnson_sig.gif) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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heh what i know about this joyng Big mount hero ;)
undisciplined and wery lucky , most of hiz kills from HO
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Leph, here some pics of superchargers:
(http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/ge_fig22.JPG)
(http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/ge_fig20.JPG)
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null
[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: juzz ]
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Originally posted by Widewing:
This can be overriden by a mechanic, but not by the pilot. I have heard that doing this leans the mixture excessively raising cylinder head temps beyond normal limits and shortens engine life dramatically.
Same thing happens on a american made compressor marketed for modern day BMW enignes according to my sources - running it above 6000 rpm the electronics will fail to deliver enough fuel, the engine will run lean and temperature rapidly increase until valves and piston burns up - literally.
Running an engine at high compression (power) w/o enough fuel in the mixture rapidly destroys it, even today.
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Originally posted by janneh:
Leph, here some pics of superchargers:
(http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/ge_fig20.JPG)
In case no one realized this, the turbo installation for this P-38 reflects those models prior to the P-38J. From the P-38J-1-LO on, all Lightnings were fitted with core type intercoolers, and not the leading edge intercoolers shown. This substantially improved the cooling of the intake charge allowing, for the first time, sustained fullpower operation without detonation.
Another problem with the earlier design was leakage. Moreover, finding and repairing the leak was a nightmare, requiring the disassembly of a substantial portion of the wing.
My regards,
Widewing
[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Widewing ]
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Not to mention that engine backfires could deform the wing leading edge! :D
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Originally posted by minus:
heh what i know about this joyng Big mount hero ;)
undisciplined and wery lucky , most of hiz kills from HO
Minus, This guys was only one warrioir that helped liberate the country of France..and this is what you say? ;)
And no his tactics did not involve HO's, he basically got real high, saw the German AC, dive on them and as they flew along unexpectantly he filled their AC full of lead and zoomed back up. On a few occasions the German pilots would attempt to dive away from Johnson's P-47 but this was a mistake too.. He just ran them down and shot them down also.
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Great post WW! Thanks!
Is there anyway we could get you to post this on the AGW main board?
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Originally posted by Widewing:
In case no one realized this, the turbo installation for this P-38 reflects those models prior to the P-38J. From the P-38J-1-LO on, all Lightnings were fitted with core type intercoolers, and not the leading edge intercoolers shown. This substantially improved the cooling of the intake charge allowing, for the first time, sustained fullpower operation without detonation.
Another problem with the earlier design was leakage. Moreover, finding and repairing the leak was a nightmare, requiring the disassembly of a substantial portion of the wing.
My regards,
Widewing
[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Widewing ]
S! Indeed!
This system also caused problems due to the convoluted ducting system involved in running the air from the leading edge into the engine. And yes, backfires could deform the wing.
Also, with regards to the durability of the Allison - well, it wasn't known for its reliability, to be frank.
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Is there any tale referring to Johnson's perilous showdown with Egon Mayer?
That'd be quite a tale if we had info from both sides :)
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Originally posted by ispar:
Also, with regards to the durability of the Allison - well, it wasn't known for its reliability, to be frank.
The problem wasn't really the engine, but the systems that got attached to it. Especially the early engines.
The prop governors used on the early P-38's were prone to "runaway" causing the engine to overspeed and destroy itself if immediate action wasn't taken.
The early turbo's would sometimes "surge" causing the engine to run unevenly and detonation to occur. This quickly caused expensive noises as parts of the engine sought to exit the aircraft also.
In North Africa, where the (unturboed) A-36 saw most of it's action, the Allison stood up very well to the dusty gritty conditions. It was not uncommon for those engines to last 1,000 hours. The Merlins on the Spits needed new bearings after 100 hours under the same conditions.
Dwarf
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Post-war the Allison was used in many racing applications in cars and boats. Very successful, too.
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I don't know how I missed this the first time around. Thanks all for the info and the stories. :)
What a great thread !! :D